Emotional backsliding

[Grapesofwrath]

If it means forever, no, it's not enough.

 

If it means right now, with the alternative of being alone without passion and that intimate friendship, yes.

 

That's the rub.

 

I think this is the tough part...leaving the A with nothing else to fill the void. You have to be ready to take a leap of faith that there is something greater waiting for you out there. It's hard to imagine feeling the magical connection with anyone else, and you can convince yourself that you can find someone available while still seeing the MM. I don't know if it works like that, though. Many will say it's impossible, and others will tell you they've done it. I have no answer for that riddle of life.

 

In any case, when you're feeling lonely and you know you can get a little sugar from the MM, it's awfully tough to resist sending that text.

[MuddyFootprints]

If it means forever, no, it's not enough.

 

If it means right now, with the alternative of being alone without passion and that intimate friendship, yes.

 

That's the rub.

 

That is the rub.

 

It sounds as though he is wanting to work on his marriage instead of pursuing just for now.

 

Keep moving forward.

[gettingstronger]

How do you feel about the contradiction of staying for the kids and risking being kicked out and involved in a contentious situation by having an affair?

[jwi71]

Why? My fear isn't something he's actually articulated. They both live for the children, he stays because of them.

 

I must have logged off right after you posted this.

 

What is resentment?

 

It is blaming/anger at others for the choices YOU made.

 

Here, your MOM, is blaming/angry at his children for not leaving - except, of course, HE is the one making the decision. Emotionally immature. You want NO part of any R with a partner who is emotionally immature/undeveloped. Your life will be a living h_ll.

 

You made reference to his making sure you heard his happy vacation plans.

Message: I don't need you to be happy. What a douchecanoe. And, importantly, emotionally immature (again). He may as well just gone :"Neener Neeener".

 

I would be VERY wary of any R with anyone who cannot understand, explain and control his/her emotional outbursts. Its like dealing with children and its ok-ish when actually dealing with children. Not so much with your spouse. Ugh. So very draining. Talk about always walking on eggshells. Sure you want that life? Remember...all you know is the little time you spent together. You are getting his BEST behavior. Imagine what its like every day, day in and day out when his TRUE colors surface.

 

(and, actually, as the above, you are seeing the true colors...but excusing them away. Any other times you can recall...and them excused them away?)

 

Take note, actually take notes, on each time he has shown this type of behavior and why it both IS and ISNT ok. Yes both. I think it will prove quite eye-opening for you.

[RoseVille]

How do you feel about the contradiction of staying for the kids and risking being kicked out and involved in a contentious situation by having an affair?

 

Sex carries the risk of STDs and pregnancy no matter how careful you are, there's never a guarantee. Yet we do it anyway. The benefits of the risk are worth it.

 

Same goes here, except the odds are better. If he were to leave of his own accord, he'd get 50% physical custody. If he were to get kicked out because of an A, he'd still get 50% custody. He has a lot to lose, but no more than he'd lose if he left on his own.

[RoseVille]

I must have logged off right after you posted this.

 

What is resentment?

 

It is blaming/anger at others for the choices YOU made.

 

Here, your MOM, is blaming/angry at his children for not leaving - except, of course, HE is the one making the decision. Emotionally immature. You want NO part of any R with a partner who is emotionally immature/undeveloped. Your life will be a living h_ll.

 

Well, no. Again, I said that's my fear, but he has not said he resents them. He resents her. It's my fear that he'll grow to resent them, as I've seen it happen in other parent-child relationships (including my own) where a parent feels unable to do/be who they want, because of the children.

 

You made reference to his making sure you heard his happy vacation plans.

Message: I don't need you to be happy. What a douchecanoe. And, importantly, emotionally immature (again). He may as well just gone :"Neener Neeener".

 

No, I said he had to have known I'd hear, as in, he didn't care to protect my feelings and/or wanted me to hear something that suggests he's actually trying to still work on his M. He's not a "neener neener" type, nor was he trying to stick it to me and make me think he could be happy without me, as you're suggesting. To the contrary, he's been telling me he's NOT happy without me.

 

I would be VERY wary of any R with anyone who cannot understand, explain and control his/her emotional outbursts. Its like dealing with children and its ok-ish when actually dealing with children. Not so much with your spouse. Ugh. So very draining. Talk about always walking on eggshells. Sure you want that life? Remember...all you know is the little time you spent together. You are getting his BEST behavior. Imagine what its like every day, day in and day out when his TRUE colors surface.

 

Don't know what you're talking about here. There haven't been any outbursts.

 

Take note, actually take notes, on each time he has shown this type of behavior and why it both IS and ISNT ok. Yes both. I think it will prove quite eye-opening for you.

 

Each time? It hasn't happened in the first place...??

[velvette]

Sex carries the risk of STDs and pregnancy no matter how careful you are, there's never a guarantee. Yet we do it anyway. The benefits of the risk are worth it.

 

Same goes here, except the odds are better. If he were to leave of his own accord, he'd get 50% physical custody. If he were to get kicked out because of an A, he'd still get 50% custody. He has a lot to lose, but no more than he'd lose if he left on his own.

 

 

I think you are missing the point. There's a huge difference between staying for the kids because that's what's best for them and staying for the kids because of your own desire to put them to bed at night.

 

 

Lets face it the kids don't care whether mom, dad, grandma or a well loved babysitter puts them to bed as long as they feel snug as a bug in a rug.

 

 

So certainly disrespecting the mother of your kids is not good for them. I think you would find few kids who were old enough to articulate the issue who would agree with that.

 

 

Staying for the kids when you don't respect the other parent and treat them with love and respect is not staying for the kids, its staying for your own selfish desires with no regard for the well being of the kids.

 

 

The question for you becomes do you want to be with the kind of man who is so self centered he treats his kids this way. Especially if you have any hopes of having children with that man yourself.

[RoseVille]

I think you are missing the point. There's a huge difference between staying for the kids because that's what's best for them and staying for the kids because of your own desire to put them to bed at night.

 

That's not the point I think she was making.

 

As for yours, oh, for sure! And I've said this in my other threads, that I think he's being really selfish... because it's not what he thinks is best for his kids, it's about his own wants. He wants to be there, he wants to see them, so he'll provide them with a poor model for a romantic relationship.

 

Staying for the kids when you don't respect the other parent and treat them with love and respect is not staying for the kids, its staying for your own selfish desires with no regard for the well being of the kids.

 

Couldn't the same be said for her? She's done and said many things to show she doesn't respect and feels contempt for him (and vice versa), although not in front of the children, and there's no day-to-day affection between them at all. They're BOTH failing in the positive role model department.

 

The question for you becomes do you want to be with the kind of man who is so self centered he treats his kids this way. Especially if you have any hopes of having children with that man yourself.

 

I can't have children for reasons I'm not going to get into, so it's somewhat of a non-issue for me.

[velvette]

That's not the point I think she was making.

 

As for yours, oh, for sure! And I've said this in my other threads, that I think he's being really selfish... because it's not what he thinks is best for his kids, it's about his own wants. He wants to be there, he wants to see them, so he'll provide them with a poor model for a romantic relationship.

 

 

 

Couldn't the same be said for her? She's done and said many things to show she doesn't respect and feels contempt for him (and vice versa), although not in front of the children, and there's no day-to-day affection between them at all. They're BOTH failing in the positive role model department.

 

 

 

I can't have children for reasons I'm not going to get into, so it's somewhat of a non-issue for me.

 

 

 

I think she was making the same point in a different way. Someone who is staying FOR the kids doesn't risk the kids by having an A.

 

 

I don't know what his wife does as she is not here to speak for herself and it really has no relevance to any relationship you would have with him.

 

 

Whether you have kids with him or not, the point is that you are describing a man who cannot even unselfishly love his children. So, even if you were with him you would experience that same selfishness. Is that what you want in a relationship?

[RoseVille]

I think she was making the same point in a different way. Someone who is staying FOR the kids doesn't risk the kids by having an A.

 

 

I don't know what his wife does as she is not here to speak for herself and it really has no relevance to any relationship you would have with him.

 

 

Whether you have kids with him or not, the point is that you are describing a man who cannot even unselfishly love his children. So, even if you were with him you would experience that same selfishness. Is that what you want in a relationship?

 

I'm not sure. I don't really know any different. Neither does he. And if he stays, neither will his children. All for the same reason. It's what we all came to know as "normal".

[jen1447]

Have you ever pushed him on the illegitimacy of the "for the kids" reason, Rose?

[RoseVille]

Have you ever pushed him on the illegitimacy of the "for the kids" reason, Rose?

 

Yes. He answers that I make good points, and he doesn't want for his kids what he had as a child and what he has now. He doesn't want to model the "roommates" thing for them. (They hide all conflict, he says, until they're asleep, but knows that intuitively they know something is not right.) They do peck each other hello and goodbye in front of the kids, so he thinks they do see affection.

 

He says this is why he wants to work on the M. He wants it to be better. He wants to get back to where they were 10 years ago. He wants to model that time in their relationship for them.

 

He's also seen family go through what he's considering, and knows it was very hard for them, but they came out on the other side okay, even better.

 

At the end of the day though, his priority is keeping the family intact, if at all possible, even if it remains the status quo.

[MissBee]

Free flow of thoughts here.

 

I'm starting to think getting over an A with a MM requires you to go through some version of the stages of grief. I've been heartbroken. I've been angry. I'm now in this "negotiating" phase, but with myself... nothing of his doing. Well, except we've had some brief contact via text (I cannot block his number for work reasons, we have to be able to reach each other). In some of these texts, he's asked me how I'm doing, and volunteers that he wishes he was with me, that he misses how natural and mutual in affection we were together. (I respond in kind, damnit. ... but his texts alone, just seeing them pop up, were enough to make my heart flutter.)

 

Based on our text conversations, and the sort of stuff he continues to share, I guess you could say that the emotional aspect is still there. Actually, it feels like the emotional aspect is greater than it was when the physical aspect started; so now it's reverse, in that the physical is over, but the emotional is strong.

 

Despite this, he's still trying to work on his M, I assume. I just heard him telling a guy on our team that he wants to plan a family vacation soon, and he said it when I was just feet away, so he had to have known I'd hear it. He's been doing all this family stuff with his kids; they just went to Disneyland too. It all just turned my stomach. The very life he bemoans, is the one I want. Isn't that funny? I'm not jealous of his W, I'm jealous of the life he has. I guess the grass is always greener, no matter whose shoes you're in.

 

I guess this is just me owning up to the fact that I really miss him. And I want to be with him. And I think I'm negotiating with myself, thinking maybe, just maybe, he'll "work through" his M and realize A or not, it's still not working, never will work, and he'll end it of his own accord, and come back to me.

 

I know the chances of that are like .00002%, but for some reason, I'm willing to keep an open heart to him just because of that slim chance.

 

It's keeping me... stalled. And until I'm angry again, I don't think it's gonna change.

 

It's normal.

 

Things are pretty new still.

 

It will take a lot more time for feelings to even out and then straight up change.

 

Even in non-A break ups, if it's not mutual, the other party often spends time hoping things will change, that the person will realize they made a mistake and can't live without them, that whatever it is will work out, that NC will make the heart grow fonder etc. Check the breakup boards/second chances, the whole breaks and breaking up section should be called "Can there be a second chance" because majority of the people still have hope. So this is normal. That's what brought me to LS initially...but with time those feelings do change esp when you turn the focus inward to yourself versus making it all about them.

[Grapesofwrath]

Sex carries the risk of STDs and pregnancy no matter how careful you are, there's never a guarantee. Yet we do it anyway. The benefits of the risk are worth it.

 

Same goes here, except the odds are better. If he were to leave of his own accord, he'd get 50% physical custody. If he were to get kicked out because of an A, he'd still get 50% custody. He has a lot to lose, but no more than he'd lose if he left on his own.

 

Rose: I think this is true, if you one lives in a "no-fault" state. (I have no idea how divorces work in other countries.) If one does not live in a no-fault state, then issues like infidelity can have a greater bearing on the outcome.

[jen1447]

All states in the US are technically no fault, meaning you can file for divorce and not show cause, but some additionally have fault divorces, where you can alternatively file for divorce for x, y, z reasons. Doing that can help with settlement and child custody, etc.

 

The solely no fault states are apparently California, Colorado, DC, Florida, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, and Wisconsin.

 

/end law tangent

[RoseVille]

I'm in San Francisco, and am familiar with how divorces and custody arrangements typically go down in my jurisdiction.

[jwi71]

Well, no. Again, I said that's my fear, but he has not said he resents them. He resents her. It's my fear that he'll grow to resent them, as I've seen it happen in other parent-child relationships (including my own) where a parent feels unable to do/be who they want, because of the children.

 

So much for my reading comprehension huh? Got that wrong for certain.

Ok, it still stands except aimed at the W. Maybe that's slightly better - but really, splitting hairs at this point.

 

No, I said he had to have known I'd hear, as in, he didn't care to protect my feelings and/or wanted me to hear something that suggests he's actually trying to still work on his M. He's not a "neener neener" type, nor was he trying to stick it to me and make me think he could be happy without me, as you're suggesting. To the contrary, he's been telling me he's NOT happy without me.

 

OK, that was my impression.

Telling you he's not happy w/o you is not the same as not being happy.

But - no need to split hairs. If he is so unhappy w/o you I'm sure this onging EA will heat up. It just needs some more time. If you want to continue this - then just jump back in. He's already testing the waters and they are not so un-inviting after all.

 

Don't know what you're talking about here. There haven't been any outbursts.

 

Unsubstantiated generalization on my part. But I would wager they are there. Conflict avoiders creating conflict within themselves tend to have theses "pressure releases". IMO.

 

Each time? It hasn't happened in the first place...??

 

Fair enough - it was a continuation of what I have typically seen and may not be applicable here.

 

Identify your goal and the actions to get there will make themselves known.