finally detaching

[norudder]

A person who is honest enough to admit they are using someone is not a MM cheating on his W. What you see is a man who made vows to one woman and he is stringing along another woman for as long as she will play the "fool". Aren't you insulted that he wants you to wait four years for him. Why do you feel that he is so much more important than you?

 

 

I should be but I'm not. I'm hurt, but not mad at least not as mad as I know I should be. Sometimes I am. I don't know why I feel he's so important. I guess its fear. I had a controlling H. MM gave me lots of attention and adoration. He was intelligent successful and charming and made me feel I was too. I'm afraid I can't be those things on my own. That my H was right about not finding anyone else. That MM was right to stay M for kids and money because that's what smart successful people do.

[norudder]

How much of this is resentment towards him? After all you left your husband and kids to be with this guy and he simply won't match your commitment to this relationship.

 

Its mixed. Both divorce and him. Are you trying to point out I have nobody but myself to blame?

 

Healing from D would be easier if I didn't also have to realize the person I loved didn't love me back. Its not just the commitment matching, I had the feeling even during the A when we were both married that he was using me. That his love was infatuation and based on avoiding his M. He didn't feel guilt or the desire to live with integrity one way or another.

Edited May 20, 2015 by norudder

[Grapesofwrath]

I should be but I'm not. I'm hurt, but not mad at least not as mad as I know I should be. Sometimes I am. I don't know why I feel he's so important. I guess its fear. I had a controlling H. MM gave me lots of attention and adoration. He was intelligent successful and charming and made me feel I was too. I'm afraid I can't be those things on my own. That my H was right about not finding anyone else. That MM was right to stay M for kids and money because that's what smart successful people do.

 

Norudder: Let's unpack this paragraph a little bit:

 

"MM gave me lots of attention and adoration. He was intelligent successful and charming and made me feel I was too. I'm afraid I can't be those things on my own."

 

Let's reframe this one: Because MM is intelligent and successful, he was attracted to you. He was not attracted to you because you can't be those things on my own. Quite the opposite. He saw something in you that many others see as well. Something lovable, giving, and desirable. His presence in your life doesn't make you those things. You are those things all on your own, and will continue to be with or without him or any man.

 

"That my H was right about not finding anyone else."

 

What a tool. That is cruel, and patently false. Of course you can find someone else, if you want to. That remark was just meant to hurt you. See it for the vicious jab it is and let it fall off you.

 

"That MM was right to stay M for kids and money because that's what smart successful people do."

 

MM is staying in the marriage because, ultimately, that is what works better for him for a variety of reasons. That does not make him smart or successful. Financial welfare may be part of it. Access to his kids may be part of it. Lack of courage may be part of it. Lack of integrity may be part of it. Conflict avoidance may be part of it. Emotional compromise may be part of it. A desire to follow through on a commitment he made (the death to us part kind, not the forsaking all others kind.) Many factors play into this decision, but deciding to stay does not make him, ipso facto, smart and successful.

[DKT3]

He's walking away because I pushed him away because he seemed all too happy with being a cake eater. He was going to continue as long as I wanted. How could he be ok lying for so long. I don't need someone saying they love me but going home to someone else. That's not real love to me. He's definitely a conflict avoider. It feels like he's getting away with something. I know I need to just let it go.

 

Its mixed. Both divorce and him. Are you trying to point out I have nobody but myself to blame?

 

Healing from D would be easier if I didn't also have to realize the person I loved didn't love me back. Its not just the commitment matching, I had the feeling even during the A when we were both married that he was using me. That his love was infatuation and based on avoiding his M. He didn't feel guilt or the desire to live with integrity one way or another.

 

Of course its your fault because you should have never put yourself in that situation. But that isn't my point.

 

Say you were in a relationship that didn't involve two marriages and kids, would you be mourning a guy that was this flakey? Would you even give two seconds to think about waiting on him?

 

What I asking is do you believe what you gave up, your 11 year marriage and if your husband remains "NICE" half your kids life, makes him in some way responsible since he wouldn't do that same while making you believe you were in this together.

 

I recall a conversation you and I had sometime ago where you doubted leaving your marriage was the right thing to do, and could you have done more to make it better. I assumed this was about the time that you realized there wasn't much of a future with MM because before that you were gong ho about wanting out.

[norudder]

Of course its your fault because you should have never put yourself in that situation. But that isn't my point.

 

Say you were in a relationship that didn't involve two marriages and kids, would you be mourning a guy that was this flakey? Would you even give two seconds to think about waiting on him?

 

What I asking is do you believe what you gave up, your 11 year marriage and if your husband remains "NICE" half your kids life, makes him in some way responsible since he wouldn't do that same while making you believe you were in this together.

 

I recall a conversation you and I had sometime ago where you doubted leaving your marriage was the right thing to do, and could you have done more to make it better. I assumed this was about the time that you realized there wasn't much of a future with MM because before that you were gong ho about wanting out.

 

Impossible to answer. Would he be so flakey if he weren't married?

 

My doubts of leaving my M were fear based. Probably many of the same fears mm had. But we made different decisions. He isn't responsible for my choice. He is responsible for his. I am disappointed that he chose neither to admit it was a mistake and fix his M nor to act on the love he proclaimed to have for me.

 

Regardless of mm, while divorce sucks, it was still the right outcome for reasons unrelated to this thread. It wasn't "for" the mm. Of course post divorce, I have to get over mm and that relationship which is my current struggle.

[norudder]

Norudder: Let's unpack this paragraph a little bit:

 

"MM gave me lots of attention and adoration. He was intelligent successful and charming and made me feel I was too. I'm afraid I can't be those things on my own."

 

Let's reframe this one: Because MM is intelligent and successful, he was attracted to you. He was not attracted to you because you can't be those things on my own. Quite the opposite. He saw something in you that many others see as well. Something lovable, giving, and desirable. His presence in your life doesn't make you those things. You are those things all on your own, and will continue to be with or without him or any man.

 

"That my H was right about not finding anyone else."

 

What a tool. That is cruel, and patently false. Of course you can find someone else, if you want to. That remark was just meant to hurt you. See it for the vicious jab it is and let it fall off you.

 

"That MM was right to stay M for kids and money because that's what smart successful people do."

 

MM is staying in the marriage because, ultimately, that is what works better for him for a variety of reasons. That does not make him smart or successful. Financial welfare may be part of it. Access to his kids may be part of it. Lack of courage may be part of it. Lack of integrity may be part of it. Conflict avoidance may be part of it. Emotional compromise may be part of it. A desire to follow through on a commitment he made (the death to us part kind, not the forsaking all others kind.) Many factors play into this decision, but deciding to stay does not make him, ipso facto, smart and successful.

 

Thank you.

[DKT3]

Impossible to answer. Would he be so flakey if he weren't married?

 

My doubts of leaving my M were fear based. Probably many of the same fears mm had. But we made different decisions. He isn't responsible for my choice. He is responsible for his. I am disappointed that he chose neither to admit it was a mistake and fix his M nor to act on the love he proclaimed to have for me.

 

Regardless of mm, while divorce sucks, it was still the right outcome for reasons unrelated to this thread. It wasn't "for" the mm. Of course post divorce, I have to get over mm and that relationship which is my current struggle.

 

Would he be flakey if he wasn't married...let's see...UMM yes. Being married or not doesn't change who he is at his core. Bottom line is he is a selfish lair that is/was misleading two women.

 

He won't say it was a mistake because he would risk his chances of sweet talking down the line. He won't act of his professed love for you because it was likely never an option.

 

I know he isn't responsible for your decision, that doesn't mean you don't still blame him, which by your posts you clearly do to a degree.

 

In my eyes you dodged a bullet, this guy sounds fairly worthless to me.

[MissBee]

I hate how we left things. He's staying M for at least 4 years"for the youngest to graduate". He said we are working toward the same thing and wants us to be able to start from scratch. He also said he knows he can't ask me to put my life on hold and the healthiest thing is to move on. Even though he sees himself as the one waiting to be with me. What a mindf***. It takes advantage of my feelings for him but absolves him of taking any action and makes him look like the good guy no matter what the outcome. He said he was thinking of telling her to discuss discretion until D so I would trust him. That was a while ago though and he hasnt reached out. Who does he think he is that I'll be waiting. Why do I feel guilty and some lingering loyalty.

 

I KNOW the healthy thing is to move on. He thinks we have an unspoken understanding. But I want him to know I see through what hes doing and wouldn't want to give a second chance to a guy who would string me along like that anyway even though he's saying he doesn't want to string me along. I don't want him to have the satisfaction of being able to play the martyr card when his wife divorces him and he looks me up but I've moved on.

 

You've made other threads struggling with NC.

 

It's normal. You're at the stage where your mind starts playing tricks on you and all of a sudden you have some new reason why you need to reach out: unsaid things, maybe last time this wasn't clear, I want the last word, did I really say all I needed to. It's a mind trick and once you ride it out you'll realize this.

 

It's like someone with OCD who gets obsessive thoughts in their head that they left the stove on and feel compelled to go back and turn it off 100 times. It's in their mind. This to me is the same. NC makes you all of a sudden wake up sometimes and obsessively want to reach out and convince yourself of something left undone or unsaid or what if they changed their mind or what if this new thing I say makes some difference...it's usually desperation and withdrawal talking and often the satisfaction your mind tells you you'll feel once you break NC doesn't happen or it happens for a while until you find some new thing you obsessively need to reach out about again...it can be a vicious cycle that is best unstarted.

 

You can't control the satisfaction he feels or doesn't. As they say, the best "revenge" and satisfaction for yourself is moving on...once you reach out, if the person wanted satisfaction they will get it just from you doing that, as they will know you've been stewing worrying about this hence the random call/text/email about it after they haven't spoken to you for a while, whereas your silence is most likely to drive them crazier.

Edited May 20, 2015 by MissBee

[MissBee]

I just want him to admit it and apologize.

 

Trap #1

 

That was also my rationale with an ex of mind, and for my obsessive reaching out and breaking NC and writing emails and beseeching him to be honest and apologize. It is SO EMBARRASSING now looking back as I am sure I seemed pathetic and desperate.

 

Granted, I reached out many many times and you haven't YET...but don't do it. If he wanted to be honest and apologize he'd call you. Chances are he will not be honest or apologize even if you call him OR you still won't believe him.

 

Part of this is that you still love him and want him and want things to be different, because honestly if you didn't you'd not care either way. And because you do still care, it's gonna be difficult for you to gain satisfaction or comfort in anything he does or says right now, as ultimately NONE of it will be what you want and you won't be comforted but will be hurt and upset.

[norudder]

Thank you guys so much. NC has been hard I am so glad to have written here instead of to him. I will reread this thread when I need to.

[Hope Shimmers]

I hate how we left things. He's staying M for at least 4 years"for the youngest to graduate". He said we are working toward the same thing and wants us to be able to start from scratch. He also said he knows he can't ask me to put my life on hold and the healthiest thing is to move on. Even though he sees himself as the one waiting to be with me. What a mindf***. It takes advantage of my feelings for him but absolves him of taking any action and makes him look like the good guy no matter what the outcome. He said he was thinking of telling her to discuss discretion until D so I would trust him. That was a while ago though and he hasnt reached out. Who does he think he is that I'll be waiting. Why do I feel guilty and some lingering loyalty.

 

I KNOW the healthy thing is to move on. He thinks we have an unspoken understanding. But I want him to know I see through what hes doing and wouldn't want to give a second chance to a guy who would string me along like that anyway even though he's saying he doesn't want to string me along. I don't want him to have the satisfaction of being able to play the martyr card when his wife divorces him and he looks me up but I've moved on.

 

If he decides to play the martyr card if and when he divorces in 4 years (I wouldn't hold my breath) and you are not there, there's not much you can do about it, because anyone who truly thinks this way is an idiot. Sorry.

 

Nothing you can say to him will make him stop twisting reality to make this all about his suffering and martyrdom. In 4 years you should simply not give a damn what he does and how he feels. To do that, you need to get off the hamster wheel of constantly trying to end on some kind of note that makes sense, because HE doesn't make sense and he never will.

 

I do understand that YOU understand that your leaving your marriage was not based on him or his decision. Still, that would understandably make it a hundred times worse. I can imagine how you feel.

 

As hard as it is, if you can just move on and never speak to him again, you will one day be glad you made that choice. Your contacting him again just to try to end things on a positive note just makes you look weak, and you're not.

[Popsicle]

I did. This came after. I got a D. I didn't pressure him for a D but he knew I wanted a relationship with him but if he wasn't going to D I wasn't going to continue the A.

 

I came to realize we didn't really feel the same way about each other or share the same values after all.

 

If you broke up with him, I don't understand why you want to change how you left things...

[norudder]

If you broke up with him, I don't understand why you want to change how you left things...

 

Because it wasn't nc right away. There were a few conversations after. Tried to just 'keep in touch' (silly idea), saw each other at work (no longer working there). He always put out those hints that he understands I ended things but we are going to end up together. Neither of us explicitly said NC. Just went there. I don't know if its intentional manipulation or if he truly believed what he said. He's in therapy too. Who knows. Trying not to care.

 

He stopped talking to a family member for three years until a legal matter was cleared up then called them on their birthday and resumed their relationship. He made that comparison about us. He wants a second chances romantic reunion for us because we are star crossed lovers and it was simply bad timing.

[Poppy47]

That's rubbish you are getting from him.

 

Does he think he's God and can suspend your life until he's ready?

Poppy.

[Gloria_Smellons]

The fact that a grown man would use the phrase 'star crossed lovers' has made my eyes roll so far I can see my own brain...

 

Life isn't a fairytale, it's a series of choices. He can choose to leave in four years time if he wants, but that doesn't mean you should choose to put your life on hold. His choices are on him, not you. In choosing not to make/take any steps to be with you now, he chooses life without you.

 

Simple.

[norudder]

That's rubbish you are getting from him.

 

Does he think he's God and can suspend your life until he's ready?

Poppy.

 

Yes. At work he would get upset if someone didn't take an opportunity he presented them. He said 'can't they see I'm lining them up for success. I put them in place and they just need to execute'. Like chess pieces. Didn't click with me at the time because it was meant to be helpful. But a controlling mind is still about control even if its for the 'good'. I think I have some of my own control issues since I can't let go of this relationship in my mind.

[norudder]

Trap #1

 

That was also my rationale with an ex of mind, and for my obsessive reaching out and breaking NC and writing emails and beseeching him to be honest and apologize. It is SO EMBARRASSING now looking back as I am sure I seemed pathetic and desperate.

 

Granted, I reached out many many times and you haven't YET...but don't do it. If he wanted to be honest and apologize he'd call you. Chances are he will not be honest or apologize even if you call him OR you still won't believe him.

 

Part of this is that you still love him and want him and want things to be different, because honestly if you didn't you'd not care either way. And because you do still care, it's gonna be difficult for you to gain satisfaction or comfort in anything he does or says right now, as ultimately NONE of it will be what you want and you won't be comforted but will be hurt and upset.

 

Your experience is so helpful. I don't want to embarrass myself anymore than I already have. I am conflicted with anger and shame at myself as well. I want to go back and react differently. Shame on him for using me in some of the ways he did, and shame on me for letting him. Marriages aside, I valued him more than he valued me. Makes me sick now and I don't know what to do with that. I want to reclaim my dignity and I feel like I left it on the floor at his feet. I need to realize I can't reclaim it through any interaction with him. I'm also mad at the positive feelings that still linger for him.

[Lois_Griffin]

Right now, it's the 'I have to stay for 4 more years until my youngest finishes high school" excuse.

 

In another few years it will be waiting for them to finish college, then he'll have to stay for the oldest kid's upcoming nuptials. Then it will be some terminal illness he has to deal with concerning one of his parents or one of hers. Then it will be the first grandchild is on the way. Then it will be that he can't break up the family and lose his grandchildren and on and on and on.

 

There will ALWAYS be an excuse, Rudder.

 

Always.

 

I pray to heaven and back that you don't live 'on the surface' for the next 4 years, not wanting to get involved with anyone because you think he'll be out in 4 years, looking for you. He won't.

 

Sending strength.

[Grapesofwrath]

Yes. At work he would get upset if someone didn't take an opportunity he presented them. He said 'can't they see I'm lining them up for success. I put them in place and they just need to execute'. Like chess pieces. Didn't click with me at the time because it was meant to be helpful. But a controlling mind is still about control even if its for the 'good'. I think I have some of my own control issues since I can't let go of this relationship in my mind.

 

In one of our last conversations, the MM told me that he thought the best possible outcome of our A would be that I found someone else who could be with me in a real way, and he and I could remain in each other's lives as friends." (I'll deal with that part some other time.) He asserted that he "loved me so much he wanted me to be happy."

 

I replied that if that was his best-case outcome for our A that he didn't really love me all that much. Because if he loved me like he said he did, he would try to figure out a way for us to be together.

 

My point: It wasn't that he couldn't make himself free to be with me, it's that he didn't want to. Not enough, anyway. It also smacked of control. Like I was a chess piece, as you say. That he would like to get me into a situation where I was involved with someone else, but he could still have access to me without feeling guilty that he was wasting my time and preventing me from being happy in life.

 

I also told him that, if I fell in love with someone else, I would be honest with that man about the nature of my R with MM, which would most likely result in my not talking to MM anymore. He looked at me blankly. He hadn't thought of the possibility that my loyalty would shift to my Real Man, and not the MM. Self-centered much?

[norudder]

In one of our last conversations, the MM told me that he thought the best possible outcome of our A would be that I found someone else who could be with me in a real way, and he and I could remain in each other's lives as friends." (I'll deal with that part some other time.) He asserted that he "loved me so much he wanted me to be happy."

 

I replied that if that was his best-case outcome for our A that he didn't really love me all that much. Because if he loved me like he said he did, he would try to figure out a way for us to be together.

 

My point: It wasn't that he couldn't make himself free to be with me, it's that he didn't want to. Not enough, anyway. It also smacked of control. Like I was a chess piece, as you say. That he would like to get me into a situation where I was involved with someone else, but he could still have access to me without feeling guilty that he was wasting my time and preventing me from being happy in life.

 

I also told him that, if I fell in love with someone else, I would be honest with that man about the nature of my R with MM, which would most likely result in my not talking to MM anymore. He looked at me blankly. He hadn't thought of the possibility that my loyalty would shift to my Real Man, and not the MM. Self-centered much?

 

I got a very similar conversation at one point. He said if i remarry he would walk me down the aisle if I wanted. WTF.

 

I saw another post somewhere that a mm said the same thing about his ow and they both saw it as beautiful. That that is a higher kind of love. Maybe I'm just not enlightened enough?

Edited May 21, 2015 by norudder

[Grapesofwrath]

I got a very similar conversation at one point. He said if i remarry he would walk me down the aisle if I wanted. WTF.

 

I saw another post somewhere that a mm said the same thing about his ow and they both saw it as beautiful. That that is a higher kind of love. Maybe I'm just not enlightened enough?

 

I saw that same post. This is all part of the "being a good guy" image that he absolutely must maintain. I bet your xMM sees himself as being a really good guy, who just happens to be stuck in a tough situation. He loves two women! What is a fella to do? His love for you is so pure and beautiful that he is willing to abandon you. His love for his wife is so spectactular and glorious that he is willing to cheat on her and carry on an affair behind her back.

 

The lack of self-awareness here is staggering.

[RoseVille]

I saw that same post. This is all part of the "being a good guy" image that he absolutely must maintain. I bet your xMM sees himself as being a really good guy, who just happens to be stuck in a tough situation. He loves two women! What is a fella to do? His love for you is so pure and beautiful that he is willing to abandon you. His love for his wife is so spectactular and glorious that he is willing to cheat on her and carry on an affair behind her back.

 

The lack of self-awareness here is staggering.

 

This made me smirk... So true.

[Grapesofwrath]

I got a very similar conversation at one point. He said if i remarry he would walk me down the aisle if I wanted. WTF.

 

Because you are his to give away? Wow...that is so condescending and insulting.

[the_artist_1970]

I got a very similar conversation at one point. He said if i remarry he would walk me down the aisle if I wanted. WTF.

 

I saw another post somewhere that a mm said the same thing about his ow and they both saw it as beautiful. That that is a higher kind of love. Maybe I'm just not enlightened enough?

 

What kind of woman likes the idea of the man she "loves" walking her down the aisle to give her away to another man??? That is all kind of messed up IMHO. That's not being Enlightened, that's being deceitful on a whole new level and enjoying pulling the wool over some unsuspecting new man's eyes while making a fool of him. Unless the new man knows about MM and his bride which is another topic all together.

[norudder]

I cried every day last week. I felt so much anger and grief over everything. What I did, who I let myself be, the resulting state of my life. I wanted to rip the good feelings I had for him out my body like a cancer. I whiteknuckled the urge to contact thanks to much support here. I now feel its silly to give him my tears. . I came across his picture in my phone and didn't feel nostalgic or longing or even hate. I don't wish him well or ill. I am too tired to care. I hope he never reaches out to me again. He's a fool and I will no longer suffer him gladly.