much appreciated

[Yummm]

Hello all

 

Firstly I thank you for spending time to read my story.

 

I just wanted to share with you my 'first love' experience and just wanted some opinions on the situation.

 

So I am 22, have dated previously, but have never been in a 'serious relationship' before... so here is my story:

 

I was at work when my boss's secretary (who I am quite friendly with) suggested me to her friend's younger sister on Facebook. She was 23, added me, I accepted her and we started to talk.

We got on really well, common interests were there, found eachother both attractive and I asked her out for a coffee to which she agreed.

 

Saturday night comes and out of the blue I manage to bump into this girl outside a club, and that's when it all happened. Sparks were there, our eyes couldn't stay off eachother and I asked her to go for a walk. We spent 3 hours that night just walking and getting to know one and other. Words came out of our mouths as if we knew eachother for years! We were hand in hand and I decided to order a taxi to take her home. Once I took her home, I could see she was (understandably) hesitant at inviting me in. I genuinely didn't want to go in, just wanted to make sure she got home okay and she seemed to be really taken back by that. I gave her a hug, she moved in for a kiss and we had our first kiss and I gave her my number and said goodnight.

 

We started speaking daily, checking up on eachother and the usual flirty banter for people who have just met. The coffee date changed to a dinner date and the following week I took her to dinner. We got on extremely well and safe to say that night was perfect, and we wanted to see eachother again.

 

After the 4th date, we had a moment in her car, where 4 hours went by and felt like minutes, we were just staring into eachothers eyes, in our own little bubble and had a real connection. She said she was starting to fall in love with me, and I told her that I really liked her to which she smiled. We went on regular dates after then, twice a week (dinners, bowling, movie night) and after a couple of weeks of her telling me how much she loves me, sees herself with me, I started to feel the same way and asked her to be my girlfriend.

 

The first month was perfect, the world felt like it was a better place, I looked forward to doing everything with her! She was always 1 step ahead of me with regards to her feelings towards me though, always much more 'in love' and unable to control her feelings. I definitely felt the same way, but as I have never fell in love before, I was apprehensive to what these feelings were as I didn't know what was happening to me! We agreed that we will stop overthinking, go with these feelings and 'float' through them. We also agreed that communication is the key and we will be able to get through these crazy emotions if we communicate honestly all the way.

 

This worked perfectly, we never had a fight, we always spoke, honest communication about how we felt and what we wanted for the future. We had the same views on children, marriage, family, goals in life etc and we wanted eachother to be a part of this journey. I was in utter bliss, naturally opening every door for her, giving her flowers every weekend, cooking her dinner and trying to make her feel better about her problems. She said she never had these feelings for anyone before, never had someone so romantic and perfect and she wants to spend the rest of our lives together. She was talking about marriage and kids, talking about future travels etc. She then invited me to see her family - to which they all apparently loved me.

 

About 6 weeks into our relationship, I was in and out of hospital getting cortisone injections for my slipped disc. Understandably (I hope) my mood changed, I was in alot of pain, found it hard to stay positive and couldn't leave my bed for a week. I am generally a very positive and uplifting person and felt bad about having my girlfriend seeing me like this, so I told her I wanted to get myself better and didn't want her to take/pick me up from hospital and nurture me. She responded with 'why are you pushing me away? this is what girlfriends are for, i'm here for you all the way'. That snapped something for me, I suddenly felt like I truly loved this person with all my heart. Somebody genuinely appreciated me, wanted to help me through my lows and stay with me when I needed picking up... I was at such a low point in my life for about 2 weeks and at this point she was insisting on staying with me EVERY night and I was so appreciative. One night I dosed up on morphine and had a rough night, I don't remember it very clearly but when she told me she couldn't come over that night, I cried, and she got a real shock. She said she has never seen a man cry before and didn't know how to handle it.

 

I apologised the next day, explained to her I was not myself and things will get better, and she agreed and things went back to normal. As we were in eachother's company everyday, we became very comfortable with eachother very quick. We were watching netflix every night, acting like we were a couple for years, and we became quite co-dependant during the time I was bedridden and sick (she would come over during her lunch break at work, and straight after work) and always wanted to be together.

 

For about a week, I noticed her growing a little distant, not telling me she loves me as much, seeing her stressed and low, when I asked her whats wrong she said 'ahh i don't know, im sorry i'm so cold to people who are sick, just get better and everything will be okay'. I was hesitant and kept asking but she started to get annoyed that I was doubting her, so I stopped.

 

I started to get better and slowly started to feel myself, things were picking up..

 

She took me once again to her families home town to meet all of them and spend the day there, which was lovely. On our way home her grandparents send her a message saying 'what a lovely man I was, you will be so happy with him'. We then had our own plans for a couple of days and then met up at the end of the week for a movie night. As I went to her house the vibe was really off, we were both quite cold, ended up watching a movie with no interaction! At the end of the movie I told her she looks very upset and asked if she wanted to talk, and she did. She started to say 'I feel trapped, everytime you're down i'm down, all I can do is think about you being sick and I get headaches at work and can't deal with it all'.

I told her not to worry about me, I am getting alot better and I know it's been a rough couple of weeks but everything will be back to normal. Let me spend a couple of days away to fully recover, you spend a couple of days getting your work back in order and we will see eachother during the weekend. She replied: 'If we need a break after a 3 month relationship then something is wrong'. I told her that isn't true, we have just been in eachothers space for so long, I've been quite negative and want to get better so the relationship can get better. She then replied 'okay baby, please don't leave me, you're my person, my beautiful, I love you and can't wait to see you this weekend!'

 

Went to work the next day feeling positive, things were getting better and I could finally be the man to my beautiful girlfriend - I messaged her during lunch and she responded with: 'sorry, i'm not feeling myself today'

 

This worried me, so I gave her a call and she started crying telling me 'her feelings have changed and what she wants has changed'.

 

I asked to meet her after work, to which she agreed.

 

When I went to her house, she was cold, a completely different person, she couldn't look me in the eye, she had tears in her eyes and she gave me a hug. She said: "I still love you, and care about you, but you need somebody who can look after you and I can't do that. I know i'm not rational but I thought I was ready for a serious relationship but i'm not, I'm going with my gut and I need out."

 

I was in absolute shock, but I took it well, I asked her if the connection we had was worth fighting for and she said she doesn't see it coming back, so I said goodluck and left, she was crying.

 

I was broken for days, I couldn't understand why and was so sure that she was the one. I understand that people will say that it was only a 3 month relationship but the feelings I had for her were real. I wanted to make sure that before I told her I fell in love with her it was real and not just infatuation - so I was very aware of all this puppy love that comes with a first love.

 

Today is 3 weeks post-breakup. She left me a week before my birthday, and on my birthday she messaged me wishing me well, I was polite and responded and we spoke for a little bit about work and family etc. I was happy that she messaged me but sad that it was so formal and cold.

 

Since then it's been 2 weeks with No Contact, she removed all our social media pictures except a couple (which confuses me), she has since driven past my house twice and waved at me, to which I smiled and waved back.

 

I would just like some advice and information from anyone who has had a similar experience, or perhaps understands what people like this are thinking. I have since accepted the break up, trying to find positivity and happiness during my everyday life, but the pain won't go away!

 

Just to note: She had 2 previous 2 year relationships - the first guy cheated on her, and the second guy she said they both didn't really love eachother, but were lonely and stayed together because she moved away from her family and wanted the company. We met 8 months after her breaking up with her ex.

 

I know that I deserve somebody who appreciates me even when i'm sick and a little needy, I know that I have a whole future ahead of me and will eventually be happy again, but it still doesn't take away the pain. I loved her, would have given her everything and taken care of her which is what she ultimately kept telling me she wanted in a person.

 

Once again thank you all for reading, it was hard to fit everything in, I've probably missed a few things out but don't mind adding them if people have any questions.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Yummm

[imbax]

Wow your story really moved me man. You guys really hit it off I think a little bit too fast. I can totally empathise with you about the feeling of someone looking after you when you are in hospital. My exgf would not do the same for me, I had to force her to come and see me in hospital. Consider yourself lucky that you had such a loving and caring girlfriend. As fast as she came into your life, as fast as she disappeared. Your best option would just to be to go complete NC from here on out and treat her as if she is dead. Then let time do the job of healing you and move on.

 

To be honest sometimes I don't get women. They say all these things like they love you and miss you, but end up dumping you anyway. Wtf is with that. I feel your pain man. I am in the same hurt as you are. We can do this, be strong!

[Regrets21]

I understand your pain man. I'm still pretty raw about my breakup and feel your pain.

 

 

I think sometimes emotions in others change and it becomes so hard to accept this and move on because all we have ever known of this other person is what they tell us and how they have acted with us...that being utter Love. So when things change and we can't quite believe the explanation because it is so sudden.

 

 

Things will get better that is what I keep telling myself. I felt this way during my first break up and I healed from that and can look back with fond memories, without the longing for that person. I think time is our Friend right now...I keep reminding myself that my happiness should not rely on another persons decisions. It needs to rely on my own. Although motivation is hard right now and the purpose in life somewhat evaporates when we break up from our girlfriends...Things will get better if you fill your time, realise the break up does not mean you are bad, rather you just didn't fit. Others will come, you are still young. You will grow from this experience in time. For now embrace the pain, life is up's and downs and realise this will pass. In six months/a year/two years you will not even remember the pain you are enduring now.

 

 

I wish you all the best my friend and I personally would stick to no contact for now. If she does not come back it is clear you are better off without her, you need someone who will love you like you love them - you deserve this as do we all...also it gives you time to concentrate on you, grow and heal and then you will be ready when the right woman does come into your life. Life has a funny knack of working out!

 

 

The best of luck with life mate and I know everything will work out for you! Trust!

[Yummm]

Thank you so much guys, I really appreciate the responses.

 

We definitely jumped in way too fast! The annoying thing is that she 'lured' me into it, I had the feelings but was at a much slower pace than her until all the words/actions were made and the appreciation was there that drew me in.

 

It's very hard going complete NC considering we haven't deleted eachother from facebook and she works 2 minutes away from me (I have bumped into her numerous times and like I said she has driven past my house a couple of times).

 

I understand that this is the best route to go, I should not be clinging onto hope for somebody who doesn't want to be with me. I do feel like I am doing okay, 3 weeks post-break up and I am getting on with work, meeting friends and spending time with family - but like I said the pain won't go away! I'm sure time is the healer for this but yeah, time is the last thing I want at the moment...

 

I'm slowly getting over the 'what ifs', but the pain ultimately comes from the complete shock. I wish I knew why, I have written a load of notes in my phone trying to find my own closure...

 

I agree that I must be happy with myself and not rely on somebody else for happiness, and I am trying to get back to the person I was before I was in this relationship, but find it very hard.

 

At the end of the day the way I see it is that if somebody can jump in so fast like that, get their family to tell you that you're the one, then jump out during a little rough patch, they aren't emotionally stable and aren't for me.

 

It's definitely hard to think logically at the moment, as emotions are still there, but deep down I know this is true, no matter how much my heart says I want her back.

 

I was always brought up to fight for what you love - my parents have had terrible ups and downs, but are still together, her background was that her parents 'fell out of love' and divorced, full of break ups, so perhaps it's just our different mentalities from our upbringings.

 

Once again thank you for your kind responses and I wish you all luck with your healing.

[Yummm]

Bump for anyone to have a read and comment

[Satu]

Bump for anyone to have a read and comment

 

Limerence.

[Yummm]

Thanks for that, so you believe that she was just infatuated and when the spark wore off she ran?

[Satu]

Thanks for that, so you believe that she was just infatuated and when the spark wore off she ran?

 

It seems to be so.

[Yummm]

As much as I wouldn't like to accept it, deep down I think I agree...

 

What I need to contemplate is whether or not I actually loved her or was also just infatuated and loved the idea of the relationship(?)

 

I genuinely believe that I fell in love, or else I wouldn't be feeling this empty? Ah well, as everybody has said, time will heal all.

 

Appreciate the responses!

[minime13]

The feelings you have at the beginning of a relationship are wonderful. They seem so pure and innocent, and seem like love. Truth be told, though, you fall in love over time, and that takes longer than making it through the honeymoon phase of a relationship. You fall in love with a person once the newness of the relationship wears off, and you start seeing the person for who they are (and not for the conversations you have - what happens when you get comfortable and start settling into a routine life). It's usually around three or four months when this happens - or sometimes it is triggered by a more serious event (your medical issue, for instance).

 

The other part of that is the honeymoon phase ends, and the person simply doesn't start falling in love. They felt these strong feelings, and mistook it for love. They got past the newness of the relationship where you wanted to be together all the time, and saw the routine start settling in, and just didn't like it. It happens. It's just a sign to show you that this relationship isn't the right one for you.

 

The good news is that she was honest with herself and you, and didn't make the mistake before where she just stuck out a relationship for too long because she was lonely. In the long run, this will be a lot easier to get over than if it were a year and three months down the road. It seems that she hasn't learned to discern between puppy love and real love, though, yet. Not your problem, mind you, but I don't think she was intentionally leading you on about anything.

 

There's a learning curve for you there, as well. Be wary when someone instantly falls in love with you. That's just not a natural course of things.

 

The relationship itself didn't seem dysfunctional, nor did it seem like the two of you mistreated each other. That's a bonus to take from this and give you some real insight on those relationships that just don't have that special spark, even if there's nothing wrong. It will give you some cues to look for in the future, so you can make better choices.

 

Best of luck, and sorry that this all fell apart when you needed someone the most. However, you had the privilege of learning this relatively quickly, instead of investing more time into someone that wasn't right.

[Yummm]

Thank you for that great post - it put a lot of things into perspective for me.

 

Such a shame that my honeymoon phase ended a while back and I started to really fall for her, whilst she was slowly drifting away from me...

 

She seemed very mature, which is one of the reasons I was attracted to her, I am quite mature for my age so I was looking for a girl who was serious. Why would she go to the lengths of introducing me to her family and talk about a future if ultimately she was just infatuated and didn't mean it

 

In all the previous albeit short term relationships I have been in, I have never said anything I don't mean and never jumped in that fast.

[Yummm]

Hello all

 

Hope you are having a good weekend.

 

Things have been getting better, but weekends are hard - always in my own thoughts and wake up in the morning feeling low

[imbax]

Hello all

 

Hope you are having a good weekend.

 

Things have been getting better, but weekends are hard - always in my own thoughts and wake up in the morning feeling low

 

Hi Yummm, my weekend has been good but I am in the same boat as you waking up every morning in a depressive mode. I feel very empty these days and find whenever I am on my own I just cry. It's been 6 weeks since the breakup and I haven't heard a single word from her....

 

No matter how long the relationship is, that feeling inside when you know that she was special to you. Even if the relationship was for a few months, I totally understand how much a person can mean to you even if it's only for those few months albeit my relationship was 3.5 years.

 

I guess I am not in the best position to give you advice but just know that we are going through the same thing right now. One day hopefully something really special will come into our lives and wipe our miserable past off. Until then.... I don't even know.

[Yummm]

Thank you buddy. I hope you are powering through the day!

 

I made a big step for myself today - finally deleted all of our pictures and whatsapp messages. It hurts, but feels like it will help me in the long run.

[Yummm]

Woke up this morning with cold sweats after some vivid dreams.... Such a horrible feeling

[imbax]

Oh boy...tell me about it. This sucks

[Yummm]

Indeed Imbax - it is one of the worst feelings in the world. I would not wish this pain on my worst enemy!

 

I would like some advice on how to 'let go' so to say. I have acknowledged the fact that it's over, but it doesn't stop me from feeling this pain and yearning for something to change.

 

I get that it was only a 3 month relationship, so after 3 weeks why am I still feeling this immense pain? Everything I do is associated with her, all the music I introduced to her, all the memories in my house, the drives in my car, the food we eat, it's quite obsessive.

 

I indulge in work during the week, I have started going back to the gym (which was my hobby before I met her), but these are all temporary, and the distractions are never enough to completely get her out of my head.

 

Admittedly, some days are better, she is always on my mind, but sometimes the pain isn't as apparent, but then it comes back! I have some weird sense of comfort when I speak about the relationship to others, even though people say I should stop thinking about her, when replaying the scenario in my own head and talk to others, I seem to feel better.

 

It also doesn't help that I can't get 'out of sight, out of mind'. As I've said before, she works minutes from me, I am always seeing her car (with my things still in there...) and her, occasionally she will just look straight ahead and drive, other times we will look at me and wave.

 

Ughhh - just a vent. Hope everybody is having a good Sunday!

[imbax]

Indeed Imbax - it is one of the worst feelings in the world. I would not wish this pain on my worst enemy!

 

I would like some advice on how to 'let go' so to say. I have acknowledged the fact that it's over, but it doesn't stop me from feeling this pain and yearning for something to change.

 

I get that it was only a 3 month relationship, so after 3 weeks why am I still feeling this immense pain? Everything I do is associated with her, all the music I introduced to her, all the memories in my house, the drives in my car, the food we eat, it's quite obsessive.

 

I indulge in work during the week, I have started going back to the gym (which was my hobby before I met her), but these are all temporary, and the distractions are never enough to completely get her out of my head.

 

Admittedly, some days are better, she is always on my mind, but sometimes the pain isn't as apparent, but then it comes back! I have some weird sense of comfort when I speak about the relationship to others, even though people say I should stop thinking about her, when replaying the scenario in my own head and talk to others, I seem to feel better.

 

It also doesn't help that I can't get 'out of sight, out of mind'. As I've said before, she works minutes from me, I am always seeing her car (with my things still in there...) and her, occasionally she will just look straight ahead and drive, other times we will look at me and wave.

 

Ughhh - just a vent. Hope everybody is having a good Sunday!

 

To be honest I would have felt just as hurt after 3 months let alone 3.5 years. I think you are feeling really hurt because you saw a big future with her. You were also in the "honey moon" period with her. I remember my own honey moon period lasted around a year! 3 months is all love and oxytocin hormones rushing through your body, but I guess not hers since she broke up with you. It's funny how love works sometimes right? You can love someone so much but they can't reciprocate the same emotions back to you.

 

In terms of coping what I do is:

1. Spend some time with my friends (not too much time as hanging out with my friends can make me feel lonely inside too).

 

2. Continue doing what you were doing before you got in/out of the relationship. For me this involved continuing studying, improving my fitness and making short/long term goals for myself. Mind you I was doing all these things for myself even before she left me, so nothing much has changed, the only thing that has: she isn't with me anymore to share my success.

 

3. Spend some time alone and simply have a real big cry and try to cry for as long as you can until you get it out of your system. I feel much better after I just cry and cry and cry. The hurt dulls and you are generally ok for the next few hours. Then when you feel sad again either the next day or the next few days, rinse and repeat.

 

4. Treat yourself well. I got everything I wanted because I had heaps of extra money in my wallet left from not focusing on her and what she wanted. I bought myself a nice pair of glasses, a new pair of soccer shin pads and I am just indulging myself to whatever I feel like. When she was around, I felt like it was my obligation as a good boyfriend to buy her as much as my wallet could handle. Everything I bought came in 2s. For example: buying textbooks, I would used to buy 2 textbooks at a time. Now I have spared heaps of money because I am only buying things in 1s (for myself only).

 

5. For what it's worth I have joined an online dating site and just "liked" all the potential girls. This gave me something to keep me distracted and made a small challenge to improve flirting skills and ego. At the moment, I haven't received any likes to my profile, but I guess that means I am ugly / guys don't get much attention on these types of online dating sites?

 

6. Flirt with all the girls around you and make them attracted to you. It's a huge ego boost even if you don't really like them and you have one girl in your heart (your ex). It's important as males to obtain this ego boost as we have just had our egos and confidence crushed by our exes. Keep telling yourself in the mirror that you're good looking (even if you're average like me), this helps boost your ego.

 

7. Last but not least, eat, rest, exercise and treat your body well. Do everything for yourself, even be SELFISH with yourself to an extent. You deserve the best and nothing but the best. Until the right girl comes along, then you can share your best with her. Look forward to meeting this new girl.

 

What has actually helped me a LOT was imagining another girl in place of my ex-girlfriend in my head. Spending it with that special girl who actually appreciates the way you love and commit to her. I am sure there are heaps of girls who will appreciate our love and not reject us and kick us to the gutter.

 

I really hope that helps you man. But other than that, you just have to solider on and let time do its thing. Until then... just do whatever the heck you want to do and do not contact her.

[Thecondor1991]

It would seem that she was deeply "In like with you." One doesn't just fall out of love after 3 months, especially if you did nothing wrong. It sucks and its going to hurt, but the thing you have to realize is that it was only three months. At least you didn't invest years with the person, have kids, get a place together, buy a dog, or anything like that. Believe me when I say yeah this may suck, but it sucks more when you have begun to build a future with someone then they break up with you.

[Yummm]

Thank you for the great responses.

 

I am very much aware of what I need to do to keep myself occupied. The strange thing about this is that my self worth hasn't lessened at all. I know that I have my whole future ahead of me, I know that I'm not less worthy of love and I'm not worried about someone eventually being attracted to me, its simply the shock/confusion of it all and the fact that I wanted her.

 

I have downloaded a dating app just to check it out. I actuLly have many matches and find it hard to speak to them, the thought of another girl right now actuall makes me physically sick.

 

Perhaps she wasn't in love with me, but why say those things and follow through with actions that prove that you're in love? She ran around the doctors for me, did everything that proved to me she wanted to be in my life, got along with my family, told them how much I mean to her... Her family even called me to say 'she really thinks that you are the one, please don't hurt her, look after her'. Why did she come past my house twice last week and awkwardly wave at me?

 

The only imaginable thing that I did wrong was smother her whilst I was sick. As I stated in my first post, at first I tried to push her away, I was in a little hole of pain and negativity and I didn't want her to be part of it, but she told me that I should stop pushing me away and she will be there with me all the way. I got comfortable, I was so happy that someone willingly wanted to help me through the bad times, and once I was healed I would be able to continue our journey together and she was ALL FOR IT! I wanted my baby there with me, and she was there, everyday, without me even asking her most of the time.

 

I just don't get how somebody can switch off in a matter of one night. Sure, things were a little off during the last week, but from our communication we were just both stressed with little sleep and work commitments overloading and just needed some space to heal.

 

It would be so much easier to accept if she told me 'you were smothering me and I fell out of love' instead of 'Im not feeling myself, I thought I was ready for a serious relationship but I'm not' - she then started panicking and crying and said 'I'm going with my gut and I need out'. When I asked her if she loved me she said 'of course I still love you and of course I still care about you', so I asked what is it?? She replied with 'I don't know I really don't'.

 

She has no family here in this city, lives in a tiny studio flat with a dog, complained that her last boyfriend paid her no attention and she wanted to settle down and build a life with someone who cares about her and makes her happy! She had another home here, everything she wanted, a second family who loved her and got no bad vibes, I gave her so much self confidence and appreciated everything about her, all her flaws and imperfections, she was my princess.

 

It makes no sense, hard to come to terms with...

 

But hey, taking it day by day.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Yummm

[Yummm]

Sorry for the double posting, I would just like to keep venting in my topic.

 

So this morning has been okay, woke up for work feeling positive about the day. I'm now on my coffee break whilst posting this

 

Finish work, going to the gym, then getting a massage, followed by a hot bath and bed... pretty good day to me

 

The thoughts in my head today after reading somebody else's topic on LS - from what I have posted about her reasoning from the breakup, was that closure? Yes, I understand that I need to find my own closure (which I believe I slowly am) but was her explanation reasonable? I would have thought that from the connection we had, I should have been involved in the decision of the breakup, not have received it with such a shock when the night before everything was okay.

 

I am the type of guy who would never allow somebody to be hurting this much - if I genuinely had to end a relationship with somebody I cared about, I would explain why, and if I didn't really know myself, I would at least hear them out.

[kasop]

Woke up this morning with cold sweats after some vivid dreams.... Such a horrible feeling

 

Man the dreams are the worst.. you will definitely have them. But reinforve yourself with positive thoughts when they happen. Sometime u have to get up and start doing something so u can get your mond off ot. You might lose some sleep but just expect it. They will eventually fade. Goodluck friend

[imbax]

Someone send some help for all of us. We are in dire need.

[Yummm]

Just finishing my day at work, ready to head over to the gym followed by a lovely massage and hot bath...

 

I think I need it, I haven't 'treated' myself since the breakup so that will be nice.

 

Feeling relatively positive, still haunts my mind whether or not she loved me etc etc, but hey I guess that's normal.

 

Anyone else's responses appreciated

[Thecondor1991]

Man the dreams are the worst.. you will definitely have them. But reinforve yourself with positive thoughts when they happen. Sometime u have to get up and start doing something so u can get your mond off ot. You might lose some sleep but just expect it. They will eventually fade. Goodluck friend

Yeah man the dreams are just god awful. I actually had a dream about my ex last night. I cant really remember what it was about, but waking up to that empty feeling in your heart and the butterflies in your gut is just awful.