Does anybody here agree with this quote that women are in charge of dating?

[Giggle]

My parents raised very competent kids. Though it's funny now because he has told my sister that maybe she should try being needier. It takes a special breed of guy to not feel worthless because I take care of everything. There is a balance to everything. Taking the deck off your lawn mower and replacing drive pulleys is all well and good when you're alone, but I'm also attracted to strongly masculine guys. If I'm doing that because they didn't get off their ass, then I'm assuming more masculine energy which affects both of our attraction to each other badly. Accepting that help goes a long way to keeping the balance and us feeling good about each other.

[toolforgrowth]

For that I respect you. I wish I had a father who took the same responsibility.

 

As for God you don't need to believe in a supernatural being to realize that there are big things that are out of your control.

 

There are indeed things out of my control. My marital status is not one of them. No one can force me to marry without my consent. And I do not give my consent.

 

Why that is so difficult for you to grasp is your problem.

[toolforgrowth]

You seriously don't have a clue. The weakest man on the planet is not sexually targeted for assault the way a female is. Even 6 foot transexual women with all the musculature of a man don't want to go into the men's room for fear of assault by men, once they put the target on themselves as "women."

 

But hey, your daughter's well-being is "not my problem" (and I don't think you'll make it your problem either, because you're clueless).

 

Perhaps not sexually targeted, but I've been targeted by bigger, stronger men nonetheless. I was skin and bone, even as a child. I was bullied, pushed, shoved, and even had my ass handed to me a couple times, and all because I was smaller than them. The difference between you and I is that I assume responsibility for the safety of my person as an adult and don't expect society to protect me from those bigger and stronger than I.

 

No, my daughter's well being isn't your problem. It's mine. Which is why I'm giving her the tools to defend herself like any responsible parent should.

 

You choose to live in fear and perpetual victimhood. That's your choice.

 

My GF was once beaten by a man she was dating a few years back. While abhorrent, she doesn't live in fear. She's got mace and knows how to use it. I've even encouraged her to buy herself a knife and carry it with her at all times.

 

You choose to be prey and live in fear. Go right ahead. That's your choice. But I accept no responsibility for a grown adult's safety when their safety is completely within their control.

 

You choose to not learn self defense. You choose to play the perpetual victim. You choose to behave weak. Then you choose to accept the consequences of those choices. And I have no sympathy for you because you choose to not do anything about it except complain.

 

Complaints won't keep you safe from a deranged individual. But a back kick to their groin most certainly would.

[jay1983]

End up gettin' your ass whopped or shot for tryin' to protect somebody when it wasn't your responsibility.

 

And BTW men aren't sexually assaulted as often, but they're assaulted far more often than women. Most violence by men is against other men.

 

That's my problem to deal with, not anybody else's.

Edited June 8, 2015 by jay1983

[toolforgrowth]

End up gettin' your ass whopped or shot for tryin' to protect somebody when it wasn't your responsibility.

 

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with helping out your fellow humans. I'd absolutely help someone who was being hurt. But for a person to be 100% completely dependent upon the charity of others is totally irresponsible. At some point, a person must assume a degree of responsibility for themselves and their safety. To go through life saying, "I don't have to learn self defense because I can just get men to protect me" is complete and utter entitlement, and also totally unrealistic. What is she going to do when a man isn't around? Not go outside? Live like a hermit? Blame everyone else but herself for not realizing that ultimately a person is responsible for themselves?

[jay1983]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with helping out your fellow humans. I'd absolutely help someone who was being hurt. But for a person to be 100% completely dependent upon the charity of others is totally irresponsible. At some point, a person must assume a degree of responsibility for themselves and their safety. To go through life saying, "I don't have to learn self defense because I can just get men to protect me" is complete and utter entitlement, and also totally unrealistic. What is she going to do when a man isn't around? Not go outside? Live like a hermit? Blame everyone else but herself for not realizing that ultimately a person is responsible for themselves?

 

That's kinda ironic lol

[jay1983]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with helping out your fellow humans. I'd absolutely help someone who was being hurt. But for a person to be 100% completely dependent upon the charity of others is totally irresponsible. At some point, a person must assume a degree of responsibility for themselves and their safety. To go through life saying, "I don't have to learn self defense because I can just get men to protect me" is complete and utter entitlement, and also totally unrealistic. What is she going to do when a man isn't around? Not go outside? Live like a hermit? Blame everyone else but herself for not realizing that ultimately a person is responsible for themselves?

 

The point I was making was what if the attacker was bigger than me too, what if he's got a gun. How I'm I supposed to help?

[toolforgrowth]

The point I was making was what if the attacker was bigger than me too, what if he's got a gun. How I'm I supposed to help?

 

Valid questions. If he's got a gun, the best you can hope for is that you're carrying also. If not, call 911.

 

If he's bigger than you, go for his knees. Knees are brittle joints and one good kick can break it, or at least injure it enough to where they can no longer stand and/or chase you. Typical street fights involve punching the head and face. The other person isn't going to even register what you're doing with your legs.

 

Legs are your strongest limbs. Your opponent may have more upper body strength, but knowing how to use your legs evens the odds by allowing you to bring your strongest muscles to bear, in addition to the fact that your legs are longer than their arms. They can't hurt you if they can't reach you.

 

I was once sparring with a friend who is about 6'4". He didn't have martial arts training, so it was hands only. I was focusing on his body, and after a while I threw a ridge hand and connected with his face. Not hard, just a tap. He responded by widening his stance as much as he could.

 

So I gently tapped the inside of his forward knee with my foot.

 

He didn't want to spar any more after that.

[jay1983]

Dude I used to have passion for MMA, I grappled for 3 years. Trust me I'm not someone to mess with, but There were always guys in the gym who better than me. There's always gonna be someone you can't take and that goes for anybody. Even if you're a pro UFC guy, you're weak against some regular guy with a gun or knife. Concealing a gun is not that easy unless you're wearing a jacket, you can't take inside public places, it's gotta stay in your car. What if you're attacked on your way to your car? Call 911? Come on man, assaults don't last longer than 2 mins before they beat someone down and take their money.

 

The what if(s) can go on forever.

Edited June 8, 2015 by jay1983

[toolforgrowth]

Dude I used to have passion for MMA, I grappled for 3 years. Trust me I'm not someone to mess with, but There were always guys in the gym who better than me. There's always gonna be someone you can't take and that goes for anybody. Even if you're a pro UFC guy, you're weak against some regular guy with a gun or knife. Concealing a gun is not that easy unless you're wearing a jacket, you can't take inside public places, it's gotta stay in your car. What if you're attacked on your way to your car? Call 911? Come on man, assaults don't last longer than 2 mins before they beat someone down and take their money.

 

The what if(s) can go on forever.

 

I'm saying call 911 if you are witnessing someone else being hurt and you are unable to intervene.

 

Sure, there's always someone out there tougher and better than you. That's life. But I'd rather go down fighting and make them work for it. With any luck, it'll no longer be worthwhile for them and they'll walk away. If not, you've gotten enough licks of your own to make them question doing that to someone else in the future. That's really all a person can do.

 

If they've got a gun and you don't, well then your only option is to submit. Provided you're not carrying yourself.

 

I'd love to get my concealed carry. And when my daughter is a couple years older I'm going to teach her how to shoot.

 

The reality is I can't 100% protect her all of the time. Nobody can 100% protect themselves. Ask I can do is give her every option available and hope for the best. But I sleep soundly at night knowing my daughter doesn't view herself as a weak individual.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with helping out your fellow humans.

Except if it's a female human right??

[Rejected Rosebud]

I think toolforgrowth's mindset is gender agnostic.

Except he has never said he would never help any other HUMAN besides his daughter. He has specifically said WOMAN. That is not "gender agnostic." If he was 100% against helping anyone this conversation would not even be included in this thread which is not "gender agnositc" in any case!!

[toolforgrowth]

Except if it's a female human right??

 

Wrong. I have no issue with helping anyone, male or female. What I'm saying is that I have no obligation to do so.

 

You and lollipop are acting as if it's my duty as a man to protect you from bad people. I reject that notion. You are responsible for yourselves and your safety. The only person besides myself I am responsible for is my daughter, and I don't want her to grow up weak and dependent on others in order to survive. I want her to be able to take care of herself in any situation. That's my job as a parent.

 

If you and lollipop were not taught self defense, that's not my problem. Especially considering the fact there is nothing stopping you from learning right now except yourselves.

 

My daughter won't have to be afraid walking to her car because she will be able to defend and protect herself. She won't have to rely on a man to do it for her.

 

Jesus Christ, I'm a MGTOW man and I'm more feminist than you are. When did feminism become nothing but complaining and entitlement? I remember when it actually meant something and actually taught women how to be self sufficient instead of entitled victims.

[toolforgrowth]

Except he has never said he would never help any other HUMAN besides his daughter. He has specifically said WOMAN. That is not "gender agnostic." If he was 100% against helping anyone this conversation would not even be included in this thread which is not "gender agnositc" in any case!!

 

Again, wrong. The only person I am responsible for is my daughter. I'm not responsible for anyone else. "Anyone else" includes men as well as women.

 

If a dude came up to me and said "would you walk me to my car?" my first inclination would be to say "umm, no." Why should you be any different? What makes you so special?

[Rejected Rosebud]

Sorry, your indignation doesn't hold weight with me. Especially considering the fact that I took her to Subway today and bought her a sandwich

If you had a son would you be making a big deal about buying him a sandwich? Would you have told him "it's not a MAN'S JOB to wait on you"? would you see him asking you to make toast as a dangerous step towards becoming "entitled"? Like I said encouraging the kids to do for themselves is 100% awesome IMO!! But to be training YOUR OWN PERSONAL weird gender bias into your daughter. NO. I mean discouraging a child from acting like a needy baby is not even related to what is "a man's job" or whatever!!

 

Do you have children?

No I'm not even married yet! But I WAS a child and I like the way I turned out! So does my fiance! And my dad did not have to specially train me to not expect help from men. I guess I was taught to ask for help if I need help and to give help IF I CAN when asked but to have good boundaries about all that stuff! The genders of the people helping or asking for help was never even mentioned at all!!!! When I have kids I would raise them like that without even thinking about it, that is until I read right here that there is some kind of grassroots movement with guys who refuse to help anybody who happens to be female! Sheesh! What a concept for sure!

[Rejected Rosebud]

Again, wrong. The only person I am responsible for is my daughter. I'm not responsible for anyone else. "Anyone else" includes men as well as women.

 

If a dude came up to me and said "would you walk me to my car?" my first inclination would be to say "umm, no." Why should you be any different? What makes you so special?

I don't think I am special I think I am different, if someone was scared or worried or in danger and I could actually make it better for them it's no skin off my back.

 

You don't need to explain yourself any more I totally get where you are coming from, I don't like it and am happy I don't know people like that, sorry about what your kid is going to have to deal with later, but I have no thought that I can say anything to make you think different!

 

Guess what I am doing today! Taking a single mother to the grocery store because her ex took the family car! What a big white knight I am right??

[toolforgrowth]

=Rejected Rosebud;6368879]If you had a son would you be making a big deal about buying him a sandwich? Would you have told him "it's not a MAN'S JOB to wait on you"? would you see him asking you to make toast as a dangerous step towards becoming "entitled"? Like I said encouraging the kids to do for themselves is 100% awesome IMO!! But to be training YOUR OWN PERSONAL weird gender bias into your daughter. NO. I mean discouraging a child from acting like a needy baby is not even related to what is "a man's job" or whatever!!

 

You were the one who said I wouldn't by daughter a sandwich. I refuted your argument by saying I did.

 

If my daughter were at her mother's, she wouldn't have said that. She behaves differently with me because she sees how her mother acts with the men in her life, which is the expectation. that they wait on her hand and foot. I don't want my daughter to grow up thinking that men are supposed to do things for women simply because she's a girl. I reject that notion. My daughter will not grow up thinking that she's entitled to preferential treatment by men.

 

No I'm not even married yet! But I WAS a child and I like the way I turned out! So does my fiance! And my dad did not have to specially train me to not expect help from men. I guess I was taught to ask for help if I need help and to give help IF I CAN when asked but to have good boundaries about all that stuff! The genders of the people helping or asking for help was never even mentioned at all!!!! When I have kids I would raise them like that without even thinking about it, that is until I read right here that there is some kind of grassroots movement with guys who refuse to help anybody who happens to be female! Sheesh! What a concept for sure!

Again, I'm not saying I won't help just women. I'm saying I don't accept responsibility for the safety of any other human being, including other men. I apply that to everyone equally.

 

I believe in true equality between the sexes. True equality. Women aren't entitled to preferential treatment simply because they're female. Women aren't entitled to any more rights than men are, and vice versa.

 

If the genders of the person asking for help are irrelevant, and I'm saying it's not my responsibility to make sure anyone is safe, male or female, then why do you have an issue with it?

 

If you have a son, would you teach him to be chivalrous to women? If you have a daughter, would you teach her to be chivalrous forwards men?

Edited June 8, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fix quote

[silverfeather]

I got this quote from a woman that is a dating coach and matchmaker, her name is Amy Laurent, and yes she like 99 percent of women who stubbornly, adamantly insist that the man do the pursuing, approaching, asking out, making the first move, etc.

 

 

She says that even though the man is taking the lead, doing the leading. Because many people argue and say that since the man typically does the leading, takes the lead, does the approaching and asking out, makes the first move, that means he is the one in charge, in control, but not according to her, here is here quote:

 

 

"All the decisions and power lies where the woman sets the boundaries by saying “Yes” or “No” to things. It’s the woman that sets the pace, sets the parameters, and dictates how she will be treated and looked at by the man (for instance, are you a casual play-thing or relationship/girlfriend material?) This is all up to the woman, and the woman has the most control via means of her “influence.” A misconception is to view it the other way. The core of power does not come from the one who is initiating (the man)."

 

 

Do you agree or disagree with that quote?

I like to be the one in control. But you can't really control other people unless they want you to. Regardless of which role you take you have to consent to be the boss or the more submissive. Both people set boundaries. It's best when people quit the games and admit they like one another it's the only way you get trust.

[toolforgrowth]

I don't think I am special I think I am different, if someone was scared or worried or in danger and I could actually make it better for them it's no skin off my back.

 

You don't need to explain yourself any more I totally get where you are coming from, I don't like it and am happy I don't know people like that, sorry about what your kid is going to have to deal with later, but I have no thought that I can say anything to make you think different!

 

Guess what I am doing today! Taking a single mother to the grocery store because her ex took the family car! What a big white knight I am right??

 

You're not a white knight. You're being a good friend. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

Do you expect a man (who isn't your fiancee) to go out of his way for you?

[Shining One]

Except he has never said he would never help any other HUMAN besides his daughter. He has specifically said WOMAN. That is not "gender agnostic." If he was 100% against helping anyone this conversation would not even be included in this thread which is not "gender agnositc" in any case!!

Please quote the text you're referring to. I don't see where he specifically says "I would never help any woman besides my daughter".

 

Also, nice job picking one sentence of a paragraph and ignoring the question at the end. The mindset is gender agnostic because it can be applied by any gender. Person A chooses to not accept responsibility for Person B.

[Rejected Rosebud]

she sees how her mother acts with the men in her life, which is the expectation. that they wait on her hand and foot. I don't want my daughter to grow up thinking that men are supposed to do things for women simply because she's a girl.

really in the bigger picture it is usually the women doing the toast and sandwich making for the children and the men, I don't think men in general need to make a concerted stand against being coerced into making toast for the good of the male gender ffs!!

 

If the genders of the person asking for help are irrelevant, and I'm saying it's not my responsibility to make sure anyone is safe, male or female, then why do you have an issue with it?

well as you know we have butted heads on other threads and I know you don't need me to go back and find alot of quotes to show you that it's typically about not helping women, also refusing to assist a person is NOT the same as refusing to be responsible for them. Since you asked to me you do come off as extremely sexist and I personally have a big thing about sexism and racism and also other forms of bigotry, that is my personal hot button I guess! Not your problem! For real! And srsly I don't dispute your right to refuse to do anything for anyone but yourself and your daughter in your life but I think it is a big problem in the world, alot of people think like this (and not because they call themself MOWGLI or whatever), just "that's not my problem" is not helping our culture, society, poverty, wars, health care, etc. That is my personal belief and for some reason it is the norm around my family and friends and in general people I met in college, at work, my profs, etc. so I am grateful for that!!

 

If you have a son, would you teach him to be chivalrous to women? If you have a daughter, would you teach her to be chivalrous forwards men?

I don't look at men and women as being on opposite sides of ANYTHING, I will teach my sons or daughters similar things like I was taught, to help people if they can and to ask for help if they need it and to have strong boundaries around those things, and there will be nothing like "it's not a MAN'S job" to make toast or whatever! Also neither one will be trained to be a bully or a doormat which really come in male AND female forms!

[Rejected Rosebud]

Please quote the text you're referring to. I don't see where he specifically says "I would never help any woman besides my daughter".

 

Also, nice job picking one sentence of a paragraph and ignoring the question at the end. The mindset is gender agnostic because it can be applied by any gender. Person A chooses to not accept responsibility for Person B.

Tool knows what I'm talking about, he and I have gone here in other threads, it's about women in ALL of them, this is the very first time not helping any people at all has even been brought up, at least in the ones I have read.

 

A mindset that CAN be applied to either gender might be gender agnostic ( which I have never heard of but I think I understand!) but this does not mean that it is actually BEING applied to either gender! Tool specifically said "it is not a MAN'S job to wait on you." Gender specific.

[toolforgrowth]

Tool knows what I'm talking about, he and I have gone here in other threads, it's about women in ALL of them, this is the very first time not helping any people at all has even been brought up, at least in the ones I have read.

 

A mindset that CAN be applied to either gender might be gender agnostic ( which I have never heard of but I think I understand!) but this does not mean that it is actually BEING applied to either gender! Tool specifically said "it is not a MAN'S job to wait on you." Gender specific.

 

That's because my daughter's behavior itself was gender specific. She behaved differently with her father than her mother.

 

If I had a son, and he was self sufficient with me but expected his mother to do things for him that he was fully capable of doing himself, she would be perfectly within her rights to say "it's not a woman's job to wait on you".

 

In fact, I was told that by a significant number of feminists growing up. Why is it okay for them but not okay for me?

[Rejected Rosebud]

That's because my daughter's behavior itself was gender specific. She behaved differently with her father than her mother.

 

If I had a son, and he was self sufficient with me but expected his mother to do things for him that he was fully capable of doing himself, she would be perfectly within her rights to say "it's not a woman's job to wait on you".

 

In fact, I was told that by a significant number of feminists growing up. Why is it okay for them but not okay for me?

You know I am a feminist, I was raised that way, but I was never taught that somebody was or wasn't going to do something because their gender or my gender and I really think this is what the whole point of feminism is???:confused: I mean my mom OR my dad might make me toast or tell me I needed to do it for myself! Their gender wouldn't come into that!!!

 

I really don't think that is normal for parents, I sure have not heard of it, they would say no, I'm not going to wait on you, if you want that you can do it for yourself, but the gender thing, no. Never ever heard that from any parents I know irl.

 

Do you have 50 / 50 custody of your daughter?

[William]

Let's move this back to the realm of women being in charge of dating or not and consider all disagreements from past threads to be resolved since discussing past threads in a current thread is a violation of our guidelines and leaves members subject to moderation.

 

Thanks!