Ladies, The Smarter You Are, The More Likely You Are To Be Single

[SycamoreCircle]

Women are, largely, indecisive creatures. Is that the fault of the patriarchy?

[thefooloftheyear]

Isn't it equality to want a guy who makes what you make? Isn't that equal?

 

Obviously men aren't that bothered about what women make, and many men will take a hot woman with no earning power over a less attractive woman who makes the same salary as they do. But that's not my problem, as a woman. Men will do what they want to do. And most men want hot women and don't give a crap about how much money they earn -- oh, until the divorce happens and they have to pay alimony to the non high earning woman who they chose because she was hot.

 

But I think it's total equality to want a man who makes what I make in terms of salary, or close enough to it.

 

 

Why?

 

I mean even millions of women who aren't hot have been dutifully provided for and not shamed because they didnt make what their husbands made...Since the beginning of time...So now men have to make at least as much because women are making more money?

 

So you see how ridiculous that sounds?

 

TFY

[PrettyEmily77]

The "sheng nu" in China should not curl up and die, unwanted and undesired, under some sort of "old maid" traditional shame .

This is the patriarchy talking.

They need to use their wealth and education to start "using" the third of Chinese single men who are unmarried and desperate for a wife.

 

They need to start an new order, as they have been dealt the upper hand, despite the Chinese media and "traditional" Chinese views putting them down.

They need to start selecting and using the "weaker" men for their own ends, in the same way men have generally "used" poorer women for centuries. They need to be proactive, not fade into the shadows as "failures".

 

Else nothing changes, education for women will be seen as a bad thing - unless single-hood is the goal - and women go back into the kitchen.

 

I was referring to the Chinese model, where it seems the "sheng nu" or "unwanted women" are being berated by society for in essence bettering themselves with an education.

Those women are now Class A, in a society where Class A men want to marry down and desire Class B females.

 

A survey of single women conducted by the Shanghai Daily confirms the tendency of "sheng nü" to enjoy an impressive income and a sustainable educational foundation (the largest percentage having an M.A. degree) and also checked their subjective input on this matter. The survey shows that single women who are beyond the conventional marriage age (about 45 and above) do not regard themselves as "sheng nü". Women in their 30s and late 20s, who still maintain some hope for finding the 'second half', feel greater pressure and thus own the title "sheng nü", yet about half of them also claim to live a happy and fulfilling life. In other words, pressure exists, but their immediate lifestyle allows them to focus on other things (such as career, friends, vacations, merchandise) and not truly sense urgency in changing their marital status.

 

Women empowerment in cities is one of the positive outcomes brought by the disputable One-Child Policy. Parents concentrate not only their affection in their single daughter but also their expectation that she becomes independent financially. Socioeconomic instability makes it difficult to maintain a traditional pattern where the groom provides a suitable economic foundation to the newly wed, not to mention that individualistic liberal values also contribute to the outcome of more independent women, seeking for equal status.

 

"Sheng nü" are women whose lifestyle emphasizes this equality. It is likely that these women have great fear of the future post-marriage changes in their romantic relationship, where they might be expected to give up their aspirations and become dedicated wives (after all, traditional tendencies do exist even in the most progressive cities, represented by the older generations). From the masculine point of view, even men who are not particularly conservative might prefer to marry women who seem more flexible and not so protective of their duli (independent) lifestyle. In deeper psychological layers, these women can seem castrating to men. An article by [COLOR=#494949]Global Times[/COLOR] quoted netizens who suggested that 'alpha' men usually choose 'beta' women in order to protect their manhood, which leaves the 'alpha' women as... leftovers.

 

While innocent men who fall in the dark side of demographics 'deserve' the sympathy of Chinese society, the "sheng nü" are considered as women who went one step too far with their modern lifestyle. Feminists would find many reasons to negate this term, while for the mainstream of Chinese society, "sheng nü" represents a fear of taking things too permissively: appreciating career while discounting the continuation of a family lineage, seeking independence while forgetting the biological motherly duty, fulfilling individual desires while not caring about the stability of the society as a whole...

 

Another confusing dual relationship is the one between generations; the values of the grandchild-pursuing parents (and grandparents who expect a great-grandchild) versus the values of urban youngsters. When sensing this gap, many "sheng nü" fear of committing themselves to the lifestyle which their parents represent. This clash often actually prevents "sheng nü" from realizing what they really want in life.

 

Future developments and in-depth studies will show us whether "sheng nü" becomes a major demographic force or will this term serve as a more symbolic alert for Chinese of the risks of the contemporary urban society.

 

 

Thinking Chinese - Sheng Nü ? 'Leftover Women' - The thin line between women independence and social disgrace

 

 

It's not all bad, then...

[elaine567]

Women are, largely, indecisive creatures. Is that the fault of the patriarchy?

 

I believe it is.

If you take away the need for decision making, people become indecisive.

Men traditionally made the decisions, women get used to the men (fathers, grandfathers, brothers, uncles, husbands, male bosses etc) making the decisions, AND men are usually deemed to be "right" too, so when women are forced to make their own decisions, they are naturally indecisive, why wouldn't they be?

 

If your father made every decision for you, growing up and didn't let you make any decisions, then making your own decisions would be hard for you too.

 

Despite women making headway, men are still mainly in the positions of power and they are the authority figures too, in public life.

How many women come here and say I am educated, but at home my husband takes the traditional male role - it is quite common.

One even said that if they as a couple discuss a matter and she disagrees - he makes the decision, he always has the final say and she is happy with that...

[loveweary11]

Whatever gender a person is, they face the reality that they can try to be all the things people are said to want in a partner...and still find themselves screwed over at the end of it. When guys trumpet about "well, what we really want is hot young women and we don't care much about their brains" that's sending out a message to women of all ages that they'd better learn to feather their own nests for that time when their looks start to go.

 

You're missing something about how men work.

 

We don't lose interest in our partners so easily. That's female trait (divorce initiation evidence).

 

Once we fall in love, then *our girl* becomes the most beautiful woman in the world. As she ages, she remains the most beautiful girl in the world. Our entire perception of beauty adapts to the one we love.

 

There is no discarding your wife because she also grew old with you.

[ascendotum]

Berating women for entering into survival mode, over the "newer, better, younger, model" attitude of men, is perhaps a bit rich...

 

The reality is the majority of guys are not doing that. You reckon all those older men on OLD messaging younger women are hitting the jackpot. No. There are not enough younger women to go around, and many are happy dating, marrying or sleeping around with guys their own age. There is no surplus of younger women to cater for 2 generations of men. In the past this was not really an issue as most couples stayed married for life but now that's different and I certainly wouldn't say the change was being driven by men. Studies show men are happier in a relationship then women and more miserable being single than women. Their inclination is not to ditch the missus,endure divorce and try trade up...but the more successful or sort after men have a greater inclination to do that but its hardly the majority where the average educated woman has to go into survival mode and stay single and stockpile their $ or only seek out the top earners to marry.

[jen1447]

Sorry to play the lesbian card, but I wonder what the trends are between same sex couples? I love beautiful women, but I wouldn't choose a woman as a longterm partner based on looks alone. At the same time I wouldn't exactly be crunching numbers and evaluating her earning potential either. Maybe the whole thing - between all couples - is more complex and personally elective than we tend to want to think.

[elaine567]

Why?

 

I mean even millions of women who aren't hot have been dutifully provided for and not shamed because they didnt make what their husbands made...Since the beginning of time...So now men have to make at least as much because women are making more money?

 

So you see how ridiculous that sounds?

 

TFY

 

OK, but this is about equality, not about holding up the old order with women being a bit more "equal", or a complete reversal of roles with women being in the driving seat and men being forced to jump, when she shouts, "Jump!"

 

If a woman is making a good wage and is looking for an "equal" partner, then she is not going to accept someone who is below herself in intelligence or in wage earning capacity, nor someone who far exceeds her and so she feels like a second class citizen bowing to his greater power and influence.

She is looking for an "equal", not a male bimbo to iron shirts and look good out and in the bedroom, nor a male "drudge" to look after the stuff she doesn't want to do.

She in turn, doesn't want to be turned into a trophy wife or domestic servant either.

 

I think in modern day living, inequality between partners seems to rankle, neither individual wants to feel ripped off, nor beholden.

Both states of mind cause resentment and unhappiness.

I guess true equality, addresses both concerns.

[elaine567]

The more successful or sort after men have a greater inclination to do that but its hardly the majority where the average educated woman has to go into survival mode and stay single and stockpile their $ or only seek out the top earners to marry.

 

I do not think it is only average educated women who are in survival mode, I feel many women are sold the " younger, better replacement model" story by the media and culture in general and are now in a better position to look after themselves, so are doing so.

They do not have to wait around to be replaced, they can take steps to forearm themselves.

 

I feel it was probably a story made worse and propagated by some men to keep "the little woman" in order, "Watch out or I will replace you", but some women are now taking it very seriously.

IF she is only going to be temporary, then she better get organised to cope with all eventualities.

[Radu]

Well, perhaps the break up of "the patriarchy", may mean women will no longer need as many anti-depressants.

 

To make sure of this, you will need one of the following :

- a pill that kills your sex-drive and makes you completely flat [and works with AD's]

- genetic engineering to make sure all women are born gay

- genetic engineering to make sure that if not all women are born gay, at least half are born with the need to transition f2m

- a pill that turns you gay

[Radu]

I was referring to the Chinese model, where it seems the "sheng nu" or "unwanted women" are being berated by society for in essence bettering themselves with an education.

Those women are now Class A, in a society where Class A men want to marry down and desire Class B females.

 

These same women also have a laundry list of needs that essentially boils down to 'i want a guy above me'.

 

Which boils all this mumbo-jumbo over the last few pages of examples, counter-examples and an inability to actually see the forest because of the trees, to one simple thing ... is hypergamy real and if it is, do only men enforce it or are women also enforcing it.

[elaine567]

To make sure of this, you will need one of the following :

- a pill that kills your sex-drive and makes you completely flat [and works with AD's]

- genetic engineering to make sure all women are born gay

- genetic engineering to make sure that if not all women are born gay, at least half are born with the need to transition f2m

- a pill that turns you gay

 

A "break up of the patriarchy" DOES NOT mean the end of men, surely?

It is merely a re-organisation of power, to give women an equal share.

 

Patriarchy: a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it

[elaine567]

These same women also have a laundry list of needs that essentially boils down to 'i want a guy above me'.

 

Which boils all this mumbo-jumbo over the last few pages of examples, counter-examples and an inability to actually see the forest because of the trees, to one simple thing ... is hypergamy real and if it is, do only men enforce it or are women also enforcing it.

 

Chinese men are enforcing the rule that men marry down, not up or equal, DOWN.

They will not accept Class A women as wives as it goes against "the norm".

Class A women wanting to marry their equal hardly seems an unreasonable request to me.

Why are Chinese men determined to marry women of lesser status than themselves, I wonder?

[WasOtherWoman]

When guys trumpet about "well, what we really want is hot young women and we don't care much about their brains" that's sending out a message to women of all ages that they'd better learn to feather their own nests for that time when their looks start to go.

 

 

Or be smart enough to have a really good, iron-clad prenup

[WasOtherWoman]

 

As somebody who practices divorce law, I can tell you that the women who are hardest hit by divorce (where the man went off with a younger women) are those women who have devoted their lives) are the women who devoted themselves to the business of trying to be a perfect wife and mother. Meantime, they're battered that bit further by media messages about "how to beat time/how to hang onto your man/this celeb/model looks 35 at the age of 50...so what's your excuse??"

 

It's hard to hear their stories. To see how depressed and embittered they are as a result of having put all their eggs in a basket that, as it turned out, was not built for the long term - however hard they tried to take care of it. So it makes sense, in the context of eternally uncertain relationships, for women to be confident in their ability to be self supporting.

 

Amen, sister. My husband is the CEO of a major corporation (I am his second wife) and I STILL work for a living. I will never give up my ability to support myself. In my humble opinion, no one should do this....

[SycamoreCircle]

I believe it is.

If you take away the need for decision making, people become indecisive.

Men traditionally made the decisions, women get used to the men (fathers, grandfathers, brothers, uncles, husbands, male bosses etc) making the decisions, AND men are usually deemed to be "right" too, so when women are forced to make their own decisions, they are naturally indecisive, why wouldn't they be?

 

If your father made every decision for you, growing up and didn't let you make any decisions, then making your own decisions would be hard for you too.

 

Despite women making headway, men are still mainly in the positions of power and they are the authority figures too, in public life.

How many women come here and say I am educated, but at home my husband takes the traditional male role - it is quite common.

One even said that if they as a couple discuss a matter and she disagrees - he makes the decision, he always has the final say and she is happy with that...

I see your point and I agree with it, but I feel so much of how a person sees the world is not based on ideas of patriarchy, necessarily but family dynamics. I grew up in a household where, in many respects, my mother had a stronger character. She is more emotionally intelligent and more honest with herself than my father. Better with money, too. I have always related to her on a deep level. That has a tremendous effect on how I behave. It has hindered me in some ways, too. I don't have many pronounced male traits---drive for sex, money, property, family or competition. I suspect this is due to my father being a more doubtful figure in my home life.

 

My sister, who is married to the epitome of a patriarch(rigid, conformist, totalitarian, loyal to work, family and God), has confessed to me that she was attracted to her husband because he was the polar opposite of our father.

 

Patriarchy has its place. Its absence can be overcompensated for, creating a different sort of imbalance.

[ascendotum]

Chinese men are enforcing the rule that men marry down, not up or equal, DOWN.

They will not accept Class A women as wives as it goes against "the norm".

Class A women wanting to marry their equal hardly seems an unreasonable request to me.

Why are Chinese men determined to marry women of lesser status than themselves, I wonder?

that's the way it has traditionally been, and the influence of that way of thinking wont disappear in just a generation, but with millions of excess men now I'd be surprised if most of those men would be thinking they are happier being single than with a wife who has a better education or earned more than him. IDK. I saw a doco on the changes sweeping through China and dating, and they interviewed laborers or factory workers and these guys said women had no time for them. A number of the women they interviewed now had tick off lists when it came to men and it was clear they were empowered with the options now available and the advantage is with them now and they knew it.

[thefooloftheyear]

OK, but this is about equality, not about holding up the old order with women being a bit more "equal", or a complete reversal of roles with women being in the driving seat and men being forced to jump, when she shouts, "Jump!"

 

If a woman is making a good wage and is looking for an "equal" partner, then she is not going to accept someone who is below herself in intelligence or in wage earning capacity, nor someone who far exceeds her and so she feels like a second class citizen bowing to his greater power and influence.

She is looking for an "equal", not a male bimbo to iron shirts and look good out and in the bedroom, nor a male "drudge" to look after the stuff she doesn't want to do.

She in turn, doesn't want to be turned into a trophy wife or domestic servant either.

 

I think in modern day living, inequality between partners seems to rankle, neither individual wants to feel ripped off, nor beholden.

Both states of mind cause resentment and unhappiness.

I guess true equality, addresses both concerns.

 

 

So all those years of pulling that cart like donkeys mean nothing for guys now???

 

 

See, these are the things about equality and feminism that I dont get...Its very selective in how its principles are applied...

 

TFY

[elaine567]

I see your point and I agree with it, but I feel so much of how a person sees the world is not based on ideas of patriarchy, necessarily but family dynamics. I grew up in a household where, in many respects, my mother had a stronger character. She is more emotionally intelligent and more honest with herself than my father. Better with money, too. I have always related to her on a deep level. That has a tremendous effect on how I behave. It has hindered me in some ways, too. I don't have many pronounced male traits---drive for sex, money, property, family or competition. I suspect this is due to my father being a more doubtful figure in my home life.

 

My sister, who is married to the epitome of a patriarch(rigid, conformist, totalitarian, loyal to work, family and God), has confessed to me that she was attracted to her husband because he was the polar opposite of our father.

 

Patriarchy has its place. Its absence can be overcompensated for, creating a different sort of imbalance.

 

Your sister looked around for what the patriarchal society told her was desirable in a man - strong, dominant, rigid and she then saw her father as being weak, a poor role model, someone to look down on.

She sought to redress the balance by choosing a man the total opposite of the weak father figure that the patriarchal society told her was flawed and not up to scratch.

She choose "normality".

[elaine567]

So all those years of pulling that cart like donkeys mean nothing for guys now???

 

Why would it mean anything?

Different times, different world.

Men pulled carts like donkeys and women had dozens of kids and brought them up their own, and some women even had other jobs too, whilst men went to work.

And...

 

Other men shuffled a few papers at work and came home to the luxury of a clean house, a beautiful garden, dinner on the table and his kids tucked up clean in bed. "His wife never worked"... erm...

[SycamoreCircle]

Not true. My father has characteristics weak by any standards. Deflective, procrastinating, hoarding, selfish, hyper-critical, self-defeating, conceited, co-dependent, self-absorbed, immature. A lot of these traits are attributable to his home life---specifically, his overbearing, nagging mother.

 

I think problems arise when too much control is exerted over people. We act out, we rebel, we overcompensate.

[elaine567]

that's the way it has traditionally been, and the influence of that way of thinking wont disappear in just a generation, but with millions of excess men now I'd be surprised if most of those men would be thinking they are happier being single than with a wife who has a better education or earned more than him. IDK. I saw a doco on the changes sweeping through China and dating, and they interviewed laborers or factory workers and these guys said women had no time for them. A number of the women they interviewed now had tick off lists when it came to men and it was clear they were empowered with the options now available and the advantage is with them now and they knew it.

 

If it ever changes, I agree, it will take generation upon generation, the old traditionalists need to die off and the young need to want to change it.

One third of the men in China, being single for life,, I guess will necessitate change in some way.

No wife, no offspring, no passing on of his genes, no pride in his family, no family life.

I guess Class D men always struggled though, as Class D women would have been attractive to Class Cs, Bs or even Class A men, with the male rule to marry down.

The problem has just been emphasised by the one child rule and one male child being preferable.

[Arieswoman]

elaine567,

 

Are intelligent women just not settling for men who will treat her like she is his property?

Are those women in the position of wanting a man and not needing a man, so can afford to wait for the "right" man or can simply choose to stay single?

 

IMO, yes and yes

 

After my divorce I was single for 15+ years and wasn't bothered if I got married again or not.

I was criticised for being "too picky", but it worked out OK in the end...

[thefooloftheyear]

Why would it mean anything?

Different times, different world.

Men pulled carts like donkeys and women had dozens of kids and brought them up their own, and some women even had other jobs too, whilst men went to work.

And...

 

Other men shuffled a few papers at work and came home to the luxury of a clean house, a beautiful garden, dinner on the table and his kids tucked up clean in bed. "His wife never worked"... erm...

 

You don't get it...

 

Why does a guy still need to be the heavy, if the woman can carry the load now? I mean, you are hearing all of the women on this thread saying essentially that guys still need to earn big or at least at their level..

 

If you want feminism and equality to be fair, then there should be no stigma if the guy wants to stay home...Or if he only aspires to stock the shelves at Home Depot...

 

The real problem here, and its why women struggle, is because- and ill compare it to sports...

 

If you have the power to change the rules, fine...so be it...But then don't b!tch when the other team takes its ball and goes home...

 

Stop trying to form men into what you(not necessarily saying you) want them to be...Do whatever you think is right, but if they dont want to play along, then thats just fine...Get a cat and a vibrator and be happy that you can heat your house and put food on the table...

 

TFY

[Radu]

A "break up of the patriarchy" DOES NOT mean the end of men, surely?

It is merely a re-organisation of power, to give women an equal share.

 

Patriarchy: a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it

 

In theory it doesn't, but in practice ... it has already started to be that.

 

You want to know what the future holds ?

70% of college students female, and more and more of them bemoaning that they have few options.

In the cases where resources are limited and production is decreasing, it is all a zero-sum game.

 

What a brave new world it is, where we think that something as insignificant in the grand flow of time (like modern pursuit of obsession with equality) can trump millions of yrs of mother nature.

Very few, truly very few ppl can dominate and control their instinctive urges in the grand scheme of things ... and that is what is needed on a grand scale for this to work.

 

Either that, or drugs.