The God or Not God Discussion

[pureinheart]

I feel trapped and fear going off-topic, something that happens quite frequently with me.

 

Please feel free to go off in other directions as the discussion leads/dictates.

 

I believe God exists, I believe there is an afterlife and for me this will not change, and in fact is getting stronger.

 

One member brought up being open minded, but if I believe, without wavering in God, am I then not open minded? I would of course disagree with those who say I am. I believe in taking a stand.

 

Recently (all of the glory goes to God BTW) a bunch of things vanished from my life (bad habits) and it's all due to 'changing my mind' and changing my thinking. This is still in its early stages, so I imagine there is much more change to come. Had I followed God, the Bible in this manor my life would have been much different, but it is what it is...

 

Anyway, I'd like your thoughts/discussions on the matter of God (or not God) and how that working for you... (this question doesn't limit the thread direction though)

[Arieswoman]

pureinheart,

 

I believe God exists, I believe there is an afterlife and for me this will not change,

 

I agree 100%.

 

I'm not sure how He works through me, but I suppose every time I treat a patient and make them feel more comfortable, He could have a hand in that.

[central]

My life is truly blessed, but that has nothing to do with God - I am an atheist.

 

 

It's blessed because I strove to get a good education, and made good decisions in my life, applying reason and strong ethical principles. I am inclined to make the most of this life, as it is the only one I'll have.

 

 

Belief can be open-minded or not, I suppose. If you can accept other viewpoints and lack of belief without feeling threatened or having to promote your own, then I think that is showing open-mindedness. I may think that a belief in God is superstition, but I am willing to accept that I can't know for sure while still not caring unless it's proven one way or the other.

[whirl3daway]

I'm an atheist. A staunch, no-god, only-science kind of atheist. I was raised in a very religious Hindu family and am a child abuse survivor. I believe in taking a stand also, and I've fallen firmly on the side of no-god ever since the age of 12.

 

I've had several terrible things happen to me and when I was younger, I often prayed for an end or help or anything... and there was never any help from anyone. That solidified it for me - to me, if god existed, there would be no way innocent children would be treated the way they are treated every day.

 

I find a lot of solace in the idea that humanity is, as a whole, the same. We eat/sleep/reproduce in exactly the same manner. I think there is a great sense of community to be felt in the idea that we all suffer and prosper similarly. As I've grown older [i'm now 27], I've discovered that religion tends to want to separate people instead of bringing them together and I don't like that.

 

I don't like how some people that are religious use god as a way to **** all over other people. I also don't like the idea that people are moral only because their god told them to be so, or because they are afraid of going to hell. I readily accept that my view of religion/god is skewed towards my own lack of belief.

 

Sometimes I think it must be very comforting for people that do believe in god, to know that even at the end of a bad time, they have faith that someone is watching over them. I think that is a beautiful thing, but it's a thought that is very alien to me.

 

Also... I believe in doing the "right thing" because it helps our species prosper. I want people to love each other and accept each other, regardless of who they sleep next to at night or what they think. I respect people that believe in god and I think it's wonderful that they do - it is not the right choice for me, and I would like that same respect. At the end of the day, we are all fighting the same fight and I wish we spent a little more time trying to "come together" instead of "separate".

Edited June 3, 2015 by whirl3daway

[todreaminblue]

I am a firm believer in God.....I dont think i would be here otherwise...well for sure I would wouldnt be here....my mum was raped by my father.....and i exist because mum felt promptings to her heart to keep me in spite of opposition and actual medical opposition to the fact doctors believed it was a life risk to my mum to keep me....my mum had a still born before me and nearly died....i have had some pretty messed up things happen to me as a child and the persons responsible well they had free agency it wasnt god who came down and found me attractive as a little girl...and dressed me up in baby clothes..or did he put stones in the hands of bored boys they actually picked them up....nor did he put the words in the mouths of kids who would taunt and bully me.....they learned them through the mouths of others....

 

 

what god did in all his grace was give me hope for tomorrow because i prayed a lot.He gave me loving grandparents, he gave me a strong mother.....he gave me life by stirring my mums heart when others wanted me aborted .....and i am here.....now ....still.....and i dont think if god hadnt helped me in his ways......that i would be....and if i hadnt found a community where my beliefs are shared........i would be struggling more than i do now..life is messy...its messy because we have agency all of us to believe....to do to others what we do...and we have been given choices and will make choices.....

 

 

...we all make them as we all have a right to make them...i choose to have faith.......it wasnt something i just had...i chose it..and i actually have to work on it....i am not perfect..definitely not pious.....i am an ex hooker...that fact alone keeps me humble...it keeps me humble because even though i have that in my past....god still loves me and forgave me and forgives me when i sin...while a lot of men would not forgive a past such as this...god does.....and my church does..i have been booted from churches.....and have left because of this past of mine.........we all sin....but i just try to be what god wants me to be..and i found where i belong where i can share my faith and what i truly believe in which is helping fellow humans the needy and the poor.........and its a beautiful thing....my church has a relief society for women....and it is ....a relief.....to be part of such a society..that lives and fights the good fight.....i fidn purpose to my life that way

 

 

i do understand differences and again...my church has an interfaith policy...where we respect peoples beliefs.....but we do stand up for our own.....deb

 

......

[endlessabyss]

I'm an atheist. A staunch, no-god, only-science kind of atheist. I was raised in a very religious Hindu family and am a child abuse survivor. I believe in taking a stand also, and I've fallen firmly on the side of no-god ever since the age of 12.

 

I've had several terrible things happen to me and when I was younger, I often prayed for an end or help or anything... and there was never any help from anyone. That solidified it for me - to me, if god existed, there would be no way innocent children would be treated the way they are treated every day.

 

I find a lot of solace in the idea that humanity is, as a whole, the same. We eat/sleep/reproduce in exactly the same manner. I think there is a great sense of community to be felt in the idea that we all suffer and prosper similarly. As I've grown older [i'm now 27], I've discovered that religion tends to want to separate people instead of bringing them together and I don't like that.

 

I don't like how some people that are religious use god as a way to **** all over other people. I also don't like the idea that people are moral only because their god told them to be so, or because they are afraid of going to hell. I readily accept that my view of religion/god is skewed towards my own lack of belief.

 

Sometimes I think it must be very comforting for people that do believe in god, to know that even at the end of a bad time, they have faith that someone is watching over them. I think that is a beautiful thing, but it's a thought that is very alien to me.

 

Also... I believe in doing the "right thing" because it helps our species prosper. I want people to love each other and accept each other, regardless of who they sleep next to at night or what they think. I respect people that believe in god and I think it's wonderful that they do - it is not the right choice for me, and I would like that same respect. At the end of the day, we are all fighting the same fight and I wish we spent a little more time trying to "come together" instead of "separate".

 

 

Thank you for being very honest in your post. A lot of atheists won't admit they don't give the Almighty recognition based solely off feelings/emotions; they'd like you to believe some form of enlightenment brought them to their decision.

 

 

Hopefully you have found some peace from what has happened to you in the past.

[Keenly]

I believe there is no God. I believe the afterlife is the exact same feeling as the time before you were born.

 

Do you remember what it was like before you were born? Exactly.

 

But as long as no one tells me that I MUST believe differently, I can respect whatever another person believes.

 

It's when they demand I think / behave / live like they do that I get offended.

[Weezy1973]

I believe God exists, I believe there is an afterlife and for me this will not change, and in fact is getting stronger.

 

One member brought up being open minded, but if I believe, without wavering in God, am I then not open minded? I would of course disagree with those who say I am. I believe in taking a stand.

 

You can be a very open minded person in general, but obviously on the question of God your mind is closed. But, as you are a human, that is to be expected. We all are quite closed minded in our beliefs due to a couple of psychological phenomena - from Wikipedia:

 

Confirmation bias, also called myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, or recall information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs.

 

A major component of confirmation bias is belief perseverance defined as: n. a psychological phenomenon in which there is a tendency to persist with one's held beliefs despite the fact that the information is inaccurate or that evidence shows otherwise. This contrary nature shows an unwillingness to admit that the initial premise may not be true.

 

As humans, we all do this. And the reasons differ but very often it's just to avoid cognitive dissonance (again from Wikipedia):

 

In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.

 

 

So basically, in order to try to be open minded and objective, we really need to force ourselves to do it, because it certainly doesn't come naturally. The scientific method is an attempt to mitigate those psychological phenomena, but it isn't perfect because, after all, it is practiced by humans. But it does tend to deliver more than any other method so far...

[jay1983]

I think god is real and a lot of what's in the bible is true, just not exactly what they say it is.

[Tayla]

Pureheart, I respect your statements and firmly believe that it hits the Heart of a person.

 

Beliefs and faith are personal.

 

I believe in a power or energy that transcends anything I or man can master. Do I worship it? and give offerings to it? Not in the formal sense. Perhaps its the soul that cannot be defined strictly thru science that leads me to accept that possibilities are there.

 

To remain open minded carries a level of tolerance for that which has yet to come to light. And then when it does, its still open to more actions or further discoveries.

[jay1983]

Tayla I've never knowingly felt god, but there've been times in certain areas where I've felt a very negative energy. In other words, I got a very uncomfortable feeling and I don't think it was my mind playing tricks on me.

[pureinheart]

pureinheart,

 

 

 

I agree 100%.

 

I'm not sure how He works through me, but I suppose every time I treat a patient and make them feel more comfortable, He could have a hand in that.

 

Without a doubt, you do have good communication, so I'm sure this is evident even when you are not speaking of anything spiritual or encouraging to a patient- competency is essential for a patients peace of mind...

 

Also.. when I was in a really bad place, so held down by this world and it's thinking, you shed light on many things that were beyond encouraging. I can't remember each and every comment/thread, but remember the peace and the light buld effect... God Bless you girl!

[pureinheart]

Tayla I've never knowingly felt god, but there've been times in certain areas where I've felt a very negative energy. In other words, I got a very uncomfortable feeling and I don't think it was my mind playing tricks on me.

 

I was going to respond to the comment/member directly after AW, although your post has me very curious. When you felt negative energy, did you feel it was from God, or your perception of God?

[pureinheart]

My life is truly blessed, but that has nothing to do with God - I am an atheist.

 

 

It's blessed because I strove to get a good education, and made good decisions in my life, applying reason and strong ethical principles. I am inclined to make the most of this life, as it is the only one I'll have.

 

 

Belief can be open-minded or not, I suppose. If you can accept other viewpoints and lack of belief without feeling threatened or having to promote your own, then I think that is showing open-mindedness. I may think that a belief in God is superstition, but I am willing to accept that I can't know for sure while still not caring unless it's proven one way or the other.

 

This is cool because I see you just simply believing (or not) how you want to. I completely agree that a person who can accept other opinions and beliefs is much more comfortable with their own beliefs (should they be different).

 

I'm not good at evangelism... it's like, you don't want to believe in God, do you? ... so ya, not good at that. I have a difficult time though staying silent when I see manipulations, half truths, or complete lies... just chaps my hide, lol.

 

I am of the opinion that Atheism is a faith not having faith. It seems like the same reactions come about in discussions as Christians (or those who believe in God that are non christian).

[pureinheart]

You can be a very open minded person in general, but obviously on the question of God your mind is closed. But, as you are a human, that is to be expected. We all are quite closed minded in our beliefs due to a couple of psychological phenomena - from Wikipedia:

 

Confirmation bias, also called myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, or recall information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs.

 

A major component of confirmation bias is belief perseverance defined as: n. a psychological phenomenon in which there is a tendency to persist with one's held beliefs despite the fact that the information is inaccurate or that evidence shows otherwise. This contrary nature shows an unwillingness to admit that the initial premise may not be true.

 

As humans, we all do this. And the reasons differ but very often it's just to avoid cognitive dissonance (again from Wikipedia):

 

In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.

 

 

So basically, in order to try to be open minded and objective, we really need to force ourselves to do it, because it certainly doesn't come naturally. The scientific method is an attempt to mitigate those psychological phenomena, but it isn't perfect because, after all, it is practiced by humans. But it does tend to deliver more than any other method so far...

 

Weezy, there is no belief that you have that is hard core and won't change... I find that odd and possibly flakey... not saying you are flakey, just the concept of nothing that is a 'you know that you know'.

 

Pureheart, I respect your statements and firmly believe that it hits the Heart of a person.

 

Beliefs and faith are personal.

 

I believe in a power or energy that transcends anything I or man can master. Do I worship it? and give offerings to it? Not in the formal sense. Perhaps its the soul that cannot be defined strictly thru science that leads me to accept that possibilities are there.

 

To remain open minded carries a level of tolerance for that which has yet to come to light. And then when it does, its still open to more actions or further discoveries.

 

Tayla, I can't think of the faith that you believe in...it's like a metaphysical belief?

 

If you don't mind me saying this, recently you've gone deeper into something... there is a depth about you that is different than the depth you were demonstrating just a couple of years ago... whatever it is, it is very much working for you;)

[frogs88]

I believe a or multiple deities exist but I'm open-minded to the notion that it or them may not. I can't be sure, I have my ideas but they're absolutely not set in stone. Similarly I don't know what exactly the definition of a deity is but I believe they are extra-universal or perhaps sub-dimensional .

[jay1983]

I was going to respond to the comment/member directly after AW, although your post has me very curious. When you felt negative energy, did you feel it was from God, or your perception of God?

 

I don't think it was from god, unless it was god telling me I need to move around.

 

Have you ever felt like you were in danger, when there wasn't anything out of the ordinary?

[Haydn]

I don't think it was from god, unless it was god telling me I need to move around.

 

Have you ever felt like you were in danger, when there wasn't anything out of the ordinary?

 

This happens to me. Everything feels good, then some feeling comes over me. For no real reason.

 

I have been revising my position on `God` A series of events have made me think again.

 

I am moving toward`s a sort of belief, but not in a traditional sense.

[Trimmer]

A lot of atheists won't admit they don't give the Almighty recognition based solely off feelings/emotions; they'd like you to believe some form of enlightenment brought them to their decision.

I mean this question respectfully, but I wanted to clarify your statements here. Are you saying that you believe athiests base their beliefs only on feelings and emotions, and you think that those who claim they have arrived at their belief through some kind of thoughtful consideration (or "enlightenment") are misrepresenting themselves?

[Tayla]

 

 

Tayla, I can't think of the faith that you believe in...it's like a metaphysical belief?

 

If you don't mind me saying this, recently you've gone deeper into something... there is a depth about you that is different than the depth you were demonstrating just a couple of years ago... whatever it is, it is very much working for you;)

 

Its humbling to read such words. Thank you .

 

To answer proper, perhaps it is closer to the metaphysical source. To clarify, its been a long journey to come to this deep foundation of respect and love for that which is more encompassing than I ever imagined. I respect your passion to stand firm on certain faith sourced dogmas.

 

As a Lyric in a tune said...You got to go thru He11 before you get to heaven...and I think that holds true to some extent in the way a person can hit that turning point. The doubters would say...see there is no "god" -(whatever that concept holds for them), or to the believer ( I've faith that the God saw me thru this...and will do so again). Neither are right or wrong...its their experience both internal and external...Thus the" Its personal" to regard.

[Robert Z]

I mean this question respectfully, but I wanted to clarify your statements here. Are you saying that you believe athiests base their beliefs only on feelings and emotions, and you think that those who claim they have arrived at their belief through some kind of thoughtful consideration (or "enlightenment") are misrepresenting themselves?

 

 

I do. I believe both believers and many non-believers have fallen into the same trap of leaping to emotion-based beliefs- in the case of non-believers, it is still a belief that there is no god.

 

"I don't know", or "There is no scientific evidence for a god", or "I have no reason to believe" are reasonable statements that can be defended with logic. Any greater certitude is obviously a statement of faith; be it a faith of belief or non belief. However, I think it can be reasonably defended to claim that religion is a work of fiction used to dupe and control the masses.

 

 

If we find that our universe was produced in some physics lab, as some think we may be able to do one day [create a universe], then do the creators qualify as Gods?

 

 

If we find that all of existence as we know it is a simulation, as has been suggested and is taken seriously by some in academia, then does that make programmers gods?

 

I tend towards the latter. I do a lot of programming and we all already think we are gods! So it all fits.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Robert Z

[Weezy1973]

Weezy, there is no belief that you have that is hard core and won't change... I find that odd and possibly flakey... not saying you are flakey, just the concept of nothing that is a 'you know that you know'.

 

Yes, I realize this. For a lot of people, maybe even most people, uncertainty is a scary prospect. It doesn't scare me though, but I look at things a little differently. I'd prefer to try to learn what is actually true about the universe. That is the goal when it come to acquiring knowledge. And being uncertain about things just goes with the territory.

 

I also build my beliefs upon logic, reason, and evidence. It's kind of "bottom up" rather than "top down". The more logical and reasonable something is, and if there's a lot of evidence to support it, the greater my confidence that it's true. I'm never 100% certain beyond any doubt though, and my mind could definitely be changed if sufficient quality evidence were found to dispute my belief.

 

I'm open minded. My mind can be changed by evidence, logic and reason. Many people prefer to be closed minded because it gives them comfort in their certainty. I get that.

[Weezy1973]

I do. I believe both believers and many non-believers have fallen into the same trap of leaping to emotion-based beliefs- in the case of non-believers, it is still a belief that there is no god.

 

"I don't know", or "There is no scientific evidence for a god", or "I have no reason to believe" are reasonable statements that can be defended with logic. Any greater certitude is obviously a statement of faith; be it a faith of belief or non belief.

 

Yes I would agree. I suspect most people who say they are atheists actually are technically very convinced agnostics. They don't believe in any gods like they don't believe in the tooth fairy. There's no evidence to suggest any gods exist, so there's really no reason to believe they exist. Just like the tooth fairy.

[bippy123]

I believe there is no God. I believe the afterlife is the exact same feeling as the time before you were born.

 

Do you remember what it was like before you were born? Exactly.

 

But as long as no one tells me that I MUST believe differently, I can respect whatever another person believes.

 

It's when they demand I think / behave / live like they do that I get offended.

That's a faith based opinion . If your open minded then why not study the near death experience literature . You will find things that will surprise you there . I'm not saying Nde's prove God but they give credence and legitimacy to what most major religions have been saying for thousands of years , namely that we do we have a soul, it does survive physical death and there is an afterlife .

 

Atheism on the other hand says the soul and afterlife is wishful thinking coming from delusional people . Nde science is starting to point against the atheist stance and it is they that are starting to look delusional.

 

As a Christian inclusivist I demand one thing . That you use the reason most atheists claim they adore .

[bippy123]

Yes, I realize this. For a lot of people, maybe even most people, uncertainty is a scary prospect. It doesn't scare me though, but I look at things a little differently. I'd prefer to try to learn what is actually true about the universe. That is the goal when it come to acquiring knowledge. And being uncertain about things just goes with the territory.

 

I also build my beliefs upon logic, reason, and evidence. It's kind of "bottom up" rather than "top down". The more logical and reasonable something is, and if there's a lot of evidence to support it, the greater my confidence that it's true. I'm never 100% certain beyond any doubt though, and my mind could definitely be changed if sufficient quality evidence were found to dispute my belief.

 

I'm open minded. My mind can be changed by evidence, logic and reason. Many people prefer to be closed minded because it gives them comfort in their certainty. I get that.

 

Then tell me what have you learned logically and rationally from the peer reviewed nde literature and the nde scientists that have done these studies ?

 

Lets see if your stance is as logical and rational as you say it is .

 

Also are you an avid faith based believer in the worldview of scientism ? Namely that only science can be used to acquire knowledge ?

 

If not then are you uncertain and open minded enough to consider other views ?