"Oh, it's like THAT huh?"

[flowergirl14]

I can totally understand how a ws would want to have an RA. All cards are off the table after a spouse is cheated on. I think the bs might feel like they want something for themselves. I know thats how I feel. However, then I think if I do have a RA and we broke up then I would have to look my kids in the eyes and say I broke up this marriage too.

[toolforgrowth]

The whole issue of the vows is rather fuzzy in LS.

 

On the one hand, each of us has to take responsibility for knowing what we mean by our vows. But we cannot force our definition on others, in spite of how solid our definition is to us.

 

A vow, in church law, is NOT A CONTRACT you make with another person. (Again, if that is what you thought you were doing making your vows, then that is your business) but a VOW is a PROMISE or PLEDGE about what YOU are prepared to do. Infidelity, on the other hand is already taken care of as a sin.

 

AT no moment does the vow allow us to say: and if my partner breaks her vows, then I am free of mine. No. It is not a contract.

 

But if that is how you wish to interpret your vows, by all means.

 

Technically speaking, anyone who makes a vow "until death do us part" cannot morally defend a position that an affair automatically annuls this promise. It actually says the opposite. Everything else is just interpretation.

 

For me, what one could do is to say to one's unfaithful spouse, "Look, your infidelity is a deal breaker for me. I no longer wish to be married to you."

But to say, you broke YOUR vows and our marriage no longer exists, just doesn't hold water if one is referring specifically to one's vows.

 

That we cannot actually make such an enormous promise at the alter is the problem. But many BS's gladly stand behind the "vow card" when discussing infidelity.

It seems to me infidelity doesn't need to draw the vows to justify anything. Infidelity in a commonlaw marriage in which there are children involved is surely just as great a betrayal as a marriage with or without children, with or without the vows.

 

It sounds like you're approaching it from a religious viewpoint. That's okay by me, but I'm an atheist, so naturally we are approaching the concept from very different angles. To YOU it's not a contract. To me, it is. Once it's broken, it's broken. I am no longer held to a contract that the other party has already broken.

 

YMMV, of course, and you are entitled to a different perspective. But the "morality" argument week never carry weight with me personally, because to me, a "vow" isn't in the eyes of a god. It's a contractual term.

 

I very much agree with your last paragraph, however.

[TrustedthenBusted]

Those are just romantic words to encourage people to behave in the best ways. But once they break that, then there's a reason why divorce exists. It's also important that your spouse never gets the idea that you will put up with anything and never leave.

 

Agreed. And this is certainly not our dynamic. My wife knows damn well that I'd be fine without her personally, professionally, financially, and every other way imaginable.

 

Granted I had to tell her I was leaving before anything really sunk in for her. No...she knows that if I even get SUSPICIOUS ever again, I'd be gone, and I don't care if it's tomorrow, or when we are 99 years old.

 

I will admit that initially my self confidence and sense of self worth took a major hit. I asked myself a lot of hard questions, and I second guessed all of my own decisions.

 

But that passed, my natural confidence and self esteem returned, and I was able to be me again. And I like me. It's a good life now. In some ways better.

[bobwhite007]

It's been two years for us and I'm still seeking revenge,I guess I'm just way too picky, seriously I just wouldn't know where to begin.

[TrustedthenBusted]

It's been two years for us and I'm still seeking revenge,I guess I'm just way too picky, seriously I just wouldn't know where to begin.

 

That sounds like two LONG years. I can tell you this. Living well has truly been the best revenge. Of all the things I said, and all the things I did, the ones that TRULY hit home for her were the times I just seemed happy, unaffected, and/or over it.

 

In the beginning, once I figured out that's what hurt her, I faked happpiness out of spite. I need a reaction, and happiness worked. MY PERSONAL happiness only of course. I did not include her in any of my reindeer games. Just spent time with friends and my hobbies.

 

But eventually I DID get over it, and was genuinely happy again.

 

The difference this time was that my happiness was genuine, so I was able to invite her into it with me.

 

Revenge sex doesn't work. It will just make you a liar and a cheater as well, and nothing you do with this new woman will erase anything the OM did with your wife. So you will just keep scratching an itch that will never feel satisfied..

 

good luck though.

[Popsicle]

Agreed. And this is certainly not our dynamic. My wife knows damn well that I'd be fine without her personally, professionally, financially, and every other way imaginable.

 

Granted I had to tell her I was leaving before anything really sunk in for her. No...she knows that if I even get SUSPICIOUS ever again, I'd be gone, and I don't care if it's tomorrow, or when we are 99 years old.

 

I will admit that initially my self confidence and sense of self worth took a major hit. I asked myself a lot of hard questions, and I second guessed all of my own decisions.

 

But that passed, my natural confidence and self esteem returned, and I was able to be me again. And I like me. It's a good life now. In some ways better.

 

Keep working on your confidence.

[BetrayedH]

It's been two years for us and I'm still seeking revenge,I guess I'm just way too picky, seriously I just wouldn't know where to begin.

 

Time for you to update your thread, Bob.

[No Limit]

Your wife must be an optimist to believe she'll ever be fully trusted again.

[TrustedthenBusted]

Your wife must be an optimist to believe she'll ever be fully trusted again.

 

 

I don't think she believes or expects that. At the same time though, I don't want her staying with me under the belief that I am in a constant state of suspicion either. I'm certainly not.

 

I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't think it WILL happen, but not naive enough to believe that it couldn't. That's as good as it will ever get again, and probably how I should have entered into our relationship in the first place.

 

She may not like it, but in her heart of hearts, she knows that this is exactly how she feels about me too. Doesn't think it will, but knows it very easily could.

 

It's called reality, and I was not the only one who got a big whiff of it on D-Day.

[Cephalopod]

How was it a RA when the marriage was openly over and only waiting on the courts? Maybe in a religeous sense it was adultrey but the marriage was being absolved. Yeah, totally different story then say someone who is still actually in the marriage, maybe even working on R and sneaking off for some of their own. Entirely different and I think the vast majority of folks can see that. And before you go thinking this is about me again. My H had and has full permission to bang whoever he wants.

 

Oh...how noble and sacrificing you are. Your dedication to your BH's happiness is astonishing.

 

I hope I can one day evolve to be that progressive and relative in my views on life, love and marriage. I'm still one of those foolish idiots who believes in integrity, faithfulness and sacrifice. I have a long way to go I guess.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Cephalopod

[Noirek]

Oh...how noble and sacrificing you are. Your dedication to your BH's happiness is astonishing.

 

I hope I can one day evolve to be that progressive and relative in my views on life, love and marriage. I'm still one of those foolish idiots who believes in integrity, faithfulness and sacrifice. I have a long way to go I guess.

 

I cheated on my husband. I don't get to make the call on who he gets to sleep with. I'm not his boss and I don't get to tell him what to do or not do. If something he did was crossing one of my personal boundaries like abuse then my call would be to leave. Demanding fidelity when I was unfaithful is really hypocritical. But as none of the posters here are my spouse I can call them on their own hypocritical thoughts. And trying to sit above cheateds while preaching RAs with all sorts of justification is nothing short of hypocritical. It is a cheater's mindset looking for lookholes. However, if seperation has already occured and there is no R being worked on then I really don't see how it counts as a RA. RA are a desperate attempt to even the score and or hurt the WS. The first cannot happen and divorce is the healthy choice and even if the second happens it in no way helps with R.

[Cephalopod]

I cheated on my husband. I don't get to make the call on who he gets to sleep with. I'm not his boss and I don't get to tell him what to do or not do. If something he did was crossing one of my personal boundaries like abuse then my call would be to leave. Demanding fidelity when I was unfaithful is really hypocritical. But as none of the posters here are my spouse I can call them on their own hypocritical thoughts. And trying to sit above cheateds while preaching RAs with all sorts of justification is nothing short of hypocritical. It is a cheater's mindset looking for lookholes. However, if seperation has already occured and there is no R being worked on then I really don't see how it counts as a RA. RA are a desperate attempt to even the score and or hurt the WS. The first cannot happen and divorce is the healthy choice and even if the second happens it in no way helps with R.

 

This is a thread jack and I apologize to the OP but I have to answer this:

 

Noirek your logic is backwards. You would not be a hypocrite by telling others the dangers of cheating and infidelity as a cheater yourself if you had ended your affair and were working on true R with your husband. Sharing how your infidelity has harmed your life and marriage would be immensely helpful to other waywards.

 

No, thing is, you are being a hypocrite because you are still in an active affair (albeit one that has gone somewhat dormant from the PA it used to be), and you are now here on this site taking pot shots at people who respect marriage and the ideals it carries with it. Your cynicism is not helping anyone, and it is making you look like a miserable, spiteful grump.

 

You have your own thread. If you want to trash the institution of monogamous marriage and take shots at those who are wanting to lead an authentic life, do it on your own thread. This poor guy just had his heart ripped out by an uncaring, unloving wife. He doesn't need another wayward wife on here telling him that that marriage is a scam.

 

If you need an open marriage that badly, divorce your husband and then continue living with him while you and him go out an bang other people. Yeah... like that kind of relationship would actually last. You talk big, but I guarantee if your husband went out and slept with another woman your fragile house-of-cards reality would come crashing down. You have no idea how much it would hurt you.

 

Again, I apologize for the thread-jack. The moderators are welcome to delete it if they wish.

[toolforgrowth]

This is a thread jack and I apologize to the OP but I have to answer this:

 

Noirek your logic is backwards. You would not be a hypocrite by telling others the dangers of cheating and infidelity as a cheater yourself if you had ended your affair and were working on true R with your husband. Sharing how your infidelity has harmed your life and marriage would be immensely helpful to other waywards.

 

No, thing is, you are being a hypocrite because you are still in an active affair (albeit one that has gone somewhat dormant from the PA it used to be), and you are now here on this site taking pot shots at people who respect marriage and the ideals it carries with it. Your cynicism is not helping anyone, and it is making you look like a miserable, spiteful grump.

 

You have your own thread. If you want to trash the institution of monogamous marriage and take shots at those who are wanting to lead an authentic life, do it on your own thread. This poor guy just had his heart ripped out by an uncaring, unloving wife. He doesn't need another wayward wife on here telling him that that marriage is a scam.

 

If you need an open marriage that badly, divorce your husband and then continue living with him while you and him go out an bang other people. Yeah... like that kind of relationship would actually last. You talk big, but I guarantee if your husband went out and slept with another woman your fragile house-of-cards reality would come crashing down. You have no idea how much it would hurt you.

 

Again, I apologize for the thread-jack. The moderators are welcome to delete it if they wish.

 

There aren't enough likes in all of cyberspace that could possibly do this justice.

[Noirek]

This is a thread jack and I apologize to the OP but I have to answer this:

 

Noirek your logic is backwards. You would not be a hypocrite by telling others the dangers of cheating and infidelity as a cheater yourself if you had ended your affair and were working on true R with your husband. Sharing how your infidelity has harmed your life and marriage would be immensely helpful to other waywards.

 

No, thing is, you are being a hypocrite because you are still in an active affair (albeit one that has gone somewhat dormant from the PA it used to be), and you are now here on this site taking pot shots at people who respect marriage and the ideals it carries with it. Your cynicism is not helping anyone, and it is making you look like a miserable, spiteful grump.

 

You have your own thread. If you want to trash the institution of monogamous marriage and take shots at those who are wanting to lead an authentic life, do it on your own thread. This poor guy just had his heart ripped out by an uncaring, unloving wife. He doesn't need another wayward wife on here telling him that that marriage is a scam.

 

If you need an open marriage that badly, divorce your husband and then continue living with him while you and him go out an bang other people. Yeah... like that kind of relationship would actually last. You talk big, but I guarantee if your husband went out and slept with another woman your fragile house-of-cards reality would come crashing down. You have no idea how much it would hurt you.

 

Again, I apologize for the thread-jack. The moderators are welcome to delete it if they wish.

 

I apologize if my opinions upset you so much you decided to dictate what I can or cannot say. The OP did not "JUST have his heart ripped out" and it appears he is far less bitter than some and doing quite well. Nor has he told me to keep my opinion out of his thread. My post about my H was to clarify that telling other BS cheating is wrong no matter the motive is not the same as me telling my husband he cannot engage with someone else. A common thing I get attacked with. I was merely saying you either believe cheating is wrong or you are just another cheater if you justify it with "they cheated first". But attack me all you want, i stand by my words. I am free to post on anyone's thread I want. Just like you are. Don't like that? Perhaps move on to that other site that keeps the WS off the BS threads.

[autumnnight]

I think a WS who actually goes through their life thinking their BS is justified in sleeping with someone else at any time is just as unhealthy as a BS who has actually deluded themselves into thinking that they can have a "freebie" affair, as if cheating is not wrong once someone else does it first.

 

Both are faulty logic, faulty morality, a a very SAD way to be married, IMO.

 

I had a wine cooler in high school. Does that mean I cannot talk to my kids about underage drinking cause I would be a "Hypocrite?"

[Noirek]

I think a WS who actually goes through their life thinking their BS is justified in sleeping with someone else at any time is just as unhealthy as a BS who has actually deluded themselves into thinking that they can have a "freebie" affair, as if cheating is not wrong once someone else does it first.

 

Both are faulty logic, faulty morality, a a very SAD way to be married, IMO.

 

I had a wine cooler in high school. Does that mean I cannot talk to my kids about underage drinking cause I would be a "Hypocrite?"

 

Telling my future children about the damage of my affair and encouraging them to honour their wedding vows from the beginning because affairs only cause heartache would not be hypocritical of me. It would be honest. But telling me husband if he cheats that I won't forgive him is. So, if I would forgive his cheating anyways why not just take the cheating out and let him go do his on thing. Perhaps it keeps it from being "like that".

 

My sadness from this post that even in the picture perfect example of reconciliation, the marriage is unbalanced, the infidelity is ever present... Even if it is pushed to the back mostly. Once the plate is broken it will never be the same no matter how many sorries you give.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Noirek

[Cephalopod]

So, if I would forgive his cheating anyways why not just take the cheating out and let him go do his on thing. Perhaps it keeps it from being "like that".

 

This is a bunch of jibber jabber.

 

Noirek, you have no idea how you would actually respond to your husband if he did indeed agree to having an open marriage with you. What if he turned out to be a stud Casanova who has women throwing ass at him? What if he went out and banged a different woman every week? You actually think you would be able to handle that?

 

You are not strong enough to stop talking to your OM. What makes you think you would be strong enough to handle seeing your husband get dressed up and go out on a Friday night for a fling with some hotter younger woman?

[TrustedthenBusted]

This is a bunch of jibber jabber.

 

Noirek, you have no idea how you would actually respond to your husband if he did indeed agree to having an open marriage with you. What if he turned out to be a stud Casanova who has women throwing ass at him? What if he went out and banged a different woman every week? You actually think you would be able to handle that?

 

You are not strong enough to stop talking to your OM. What makes you think you would be strong enough to handle seeing your husband get dressed up and go out on a Friday night for a fling with some hotter younger woman?

 

When I was in the throws of D-Day and thinking heavily about seeking an RA, I talked with several women who were in open marriages ( or at least claimed to be.) I didn't find myself interested in any of them, or really willing to cheat in the end, but talking with them about their situation was fascinating.

 

In every instance, the wife found herself instantly marketable to any number of men who had no problem sleeping with a married woman. They were cougars, and in high demand.

 

The husbands, however, found that being a married man looking for some strange was about as "in demand" a pot of hot coffee in hell. Turns out married horny penis is a fairly ubiquitous commodity. Whod'a thunk?

 

That said, on the rare occasions when one of these married men DID find himself a little squeeze, the wife who had originally agreed to this arrangement found herself incredibly jealous.

 

My takeaway from this short experiment and small sample, was that people in "open marriages" are just as selfish and short sighted as anyone else, and in some ways, more so. None of them seemed to me to be as "enlightened" as they thought they were.

 

My own brother and his wife went down this path sort of. INvited a woman to join them in the sack, and suggested that they were soooo damn cool and enlightened and open and blah blah blah...

 

As suspected, eventually one member was not invited to the party, and what was once a cool fun thing became a blamestorm of lies, cheating, and divorce.

[autumnnight]

Telling my future children about the damage of my affair and encouraging them to honour their wedding vows from the beginning because affairs only cause heartache would not be hypocritical of me. It would be honest. But telling me husband if he cheats that I won't forgive him is. So, if I would forgive his cheating anyways why not just take the cheating out and let him go do his on thing. Perhaps it keeps it from being "like that".

 

My sadness from this post that even in the picture perfect example of reconciliation, the marriage is unbalanced, the infidelity is ever present... Even if it is pushed to the back mostly. Once the plate is broken it will never be the same no matter how many sorries you give.

 

This is one of the reasons I am more and more coming to the conclusion that even if a couple wants to reconcile, they should divorce first, have some time and distance, and THEN try again.

 

For people than I ever realized, an A means a couple can never be loving equals again.

[Furious]

Hey everyone. Been awhile. Hope everyone is doing as well as can be expected. Had a conversation with my wife the other day and I thought I'd share it here for those of you in R who may find yourself in my shoes 4, 5, 6 years after D-Day.

 

It all started when yet another friend in our circle discovered that her husband was cheating. Kids...house...12 years together...all the usual collateral damage.

 

While we were being very supportive and encouraging to the friend, we were of course having our own subliminal conversation through the words we used to console our friend. It's unavoidable. You have to acknowledge the pain of infidelity, even if it's right in front of the person who caused you that same pain once.

 

I said the right things, without saying anything that would be unnecessarily cruel to my listening wife ( nobody knows about our situation, mind you ) and she said all the right things from the perspective of a supportive friend, even though she knows that to me she sounded like the biggest hypocrite on earth.

 

It's ok. This stuff is gonna happen, and we've been through the drill a few times now.

 

 

Anyway, one of the things our friend said was she felt angry, wanted revenge and justified it by thinking " Oh...it's like THAT huh? Fine. Two can play that game." We just told her we understood those feelings, and assured her that no good can come from her seeking revenge. I ALMOST wanted to just tell her that we had been through infidelity ourselves...but I stopped short.

 

After the friend left, my wife asked me " Do you ever still feel that way? That it's 'like THAT?' "

 

And I was honest. I told her that I don't want to get any revenge or have an affair, but the reality is... "sort of." Yeah, it's "sort of" like that. I mean when one person shows another person in no uncertain terms that they will risk your health, your home, you relationship with your children, and of course your marriage, all for some meaningless fling....yah....it's like that.

 

And as much as I've forgiven, and moved on with our life together, I really don't think it will ever NOT be like that to some extent. You just can't put that genie back in the bottle. Not suggesting she will ever do it again.... but rather accepting the reality that it's certainly not beyond her capability.

 

She was sad but understanding. Said she felt terrible that she did this to our relationship. And wondered aloud if I would ever trust her completely again.

 

I just told her that all I can do is hope that she will communicate with me and not risk my entire future again. And that I believe she will. So if that is what she means by trust, than I guess so.

 

So there you have it. Just a day in the life. 6 years ago I used to appreciate the people who would come back here and share stuff like this, so I figured I'd do the same.

 

 

Trust? It's so important, without it, no relationship would be healthy. Trust is a choice and it comes with risk. No one is a mind reader or can predict that years down the road trust will be broken.

 

I don't believe in a revenge affair. The flip side is knowing cheating is easy, there is always someone available to cheat with and I doubt that there is any betrayed spouse who has not had the opportunity to cheat. That's the paradox, often WS's get caught up in an affair, as if it's something unique, and do not realize that their own spouse had as much opportunity, if not more, to cheat.

 

I get what you're saying, T&B, fidelity is as much as a choice as cheating is a choice. i see what you're talking about that the innocence is gone and the rose colored glasses have come off and that's not a bad thing.

 

You choose to remain faithful, it's about character and I guess the message to your wife is not that she can't trust you but that you trust yourself.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Furious

[katielee]

Trust is a choice and it comes with risk.

 

 

But what is trust? I can ACT like I trust - not snooping, or worrying. But that KNOWING FEELING that someone has my back? Gone. I don't believe trust is a choice, unless you choose not to worry about it. That's what hubby and I do most of the time. We just don't think about it.

But we'll not be surprised by anything. And that's not trust. That's hoping for the best, not being surprised if the other shoe drops. Is that any way to live? Not sure...would be the case in any romantic relationship either of us are in, including this one.

Affairs destroy that feeling, IMHO.

[Noirek]

But what is trust? I can ACT like I trust - not snooping, or worrying. But that KNOWING FEELING that someone has my back? Gone. I don't believe trust is a choice, unless you choose not to worry about it. That's what hubby and I do most of the time. We just don't think about it.

But we'll not be surprised by anything. And that's not trust. That's hoping for the best, not being surprised if the other shoe drops. Is that any way to live? Not sure...would be the case in any romantic relationship either of us are in, including this one.

Affairs destroy that feeling, IMHO.

 

Trust as a feeling may not be a choice but as an action it is. You may have your doubts when your SO travels out of town. You may want to tell them they can't go x,y,z but you choose to trust them in actions. Feelings of trust? Well, I agree, not really a choice.

[Furious]

But what is trust? I can ACT like I trust - not snooping, or worrying. But that KNOWING FEELING that someone has my back? Gone. I don't believe trust is a choice, unless you choose not to worry about it. That's what hubby and I do most of the time. We just don't think about it.

But we'll not be surprised by anything. And that's not trust. That's hoping for the best, not being surprised if the other shoe drops. Is that any way to live? Not sure...would be the case in any romantic relationship either of us are in, including this one.

Affairs destroy that feeling, IMHO.

 

 

I think you missed my point about trust.

[katielee]

could be. I haven't read this entire thread. Feel free to expound.

[autumnnight]

When one person cheats, it is extremely difficult (and sometimes impossible) to restore trust. When both choose to cheat, it just exacerbates the problem ,and often it becomes a constant "who is worse and who gets to be mad the longest" contest instead of anything to do with a real marriage.