Save an 8 year marriage

[Moose]

All of you are saying that a woman should spread her legs whenever and however hubby wants it.

I'm asking you, where do you see that????? I'm asking for the second time....where?

And if you aren't saying that, moose, ladyjane, Erin, then what the hell are you saying?

We're saying that in a marriage the two should make a conscience, geniune effort to be sure all needs are met by the other. Using sex as a weapon, or bargaining tool, or neglecting the sexual needs of your partner is a direct reflection of what that person feels about their marriage. This most often leads to infidelity.

And don't give me the 'communication' squeal either.

TOUGH! Because that's what it's all about! How are we to know what our partners needs are unless we communicate????

He said his emotions have nothing to do with it-he just gets horny.

Sure, you've probably got him brain washed by now.... Seriously, it's unfortunate that he feels this way.

He also stated that he knows its nothing personnal, but simply chemical.

Sounds to me that you two have a wonderful, but robotic marriage. I'm glad it works for you. It just wouldn't work for me.......we love each other too much to believe that sex is just a chemical reaction. We do have sex when we're horny, but most times, we make love, because we love one another. Feelings have everything to do with that. If you haven't expereinced this, then you've been deprived.

Besides, our arrangement includes a 'what good for gander is good for goose' clause. If he want to go outside the marriage to satisfy his lust, so be it. I But he must be prepared for me to do the same. I told him that, and he said he wouldn't cheat because he couldn't stand the thought of me with another man.

Good for you. A little different than most arrangements.....for example, the thought of me or Mrs. Moose stepping outside the boundaries of our marriage is something we don't even think about. It's inconceivable that either one of would do so. And if one of us did, it certainly wouldn't give the other permission to follow suit. But hey, whatever works for ya!

 

For the rest of your post, your description of what your sex life is like......makes me think that I could get exactly what your giving your husband by purchasing a blow up sex doll......

Why can't you people understand this?

We can, and we do. It's just sad to think about.

[notmynameeither]

Why can't you people understand this?

We do! I mean nothing personal when I say this, but we're trying to give constructive advice to the starter of this thread to help him save his marriage. This thread really isn't "yours" per se, it's notmyrealname's.

[Beth]

I deleted a lot of side-bar posts and bashing. I left a few side-bar posts because in a round about way they do address the original post.

 

Please stick to the original post and cease direct attacks or comments about individuals.

 

Thank you

[MJTig]

Beth, I will be done after this- I want to clarify one thing.

 

All of you are saying that a woman should spread her legs whenever and however hubby wants it.

 

Um... no. Like Moose I odn't see where you get this. In fact i said the opposite

 

No, I do not believe a woman should lay down and spread every time her hubby says so- or vice versa... but see there is a this word called compromise and respect. You do not have either.

 

We just do not think either in the relationship should be humilated and put down for wanting that kind of affection and validation from their spouse.

 

I am done with this.

[notmyrealname]

Well this has all been interesting. Amy, it sounds like more than anything that you have stated, you and your husband are sexually compatible either by choice or by conditioning. In my situation, I feel that we are not. In any event appearently, you and your husband are happy with your sex life. It isn't for any of us to decide what works for you and although the rest of us seem to place more emphisis on our sexual livelyhood, you and yours are happy with your arangement. By the same token, because you hold the power in your sexual relations with your spouse and do not seem to specifically care for what he wants or needs, doesnt mean the that the rest of us subscribe to that thought process.

 

As for my situation, today after an unrelated incident that I over reacted to, I had one more talk with my wife about this issue if for no other reason to impress upon her exactly how important of an issue that this is and that it is ruining my feelings/perception of our marriage. I explained the vicious circle that I feel we are trapped in which starts or ends with us not having sex, me being unhappy, her seeing that I am unhappy, and her not wanting to have sex because we aren't getting along... I started off the conversation by stating that I think that we need to consider marriage counciling before its too late. I think that made an impression as I have never said that before.

 

I feel that this time, she understands the impact of the situation. I explained that I have tried a few ideas to increase our frequency and nothing has made an impact. I tried to stress two important facts; 1) That I love her otherwise I wouldn't even try to improve our situation, and 2) Our current frequency isn't working for me at all.

 

I told her that I cannot compartmentalize our marriage. If I am not happy in one major aspect (sex) I am not happy in my mood or my ability to show affection for her. She noted that she can tell when I am not happy and can guess why (sex) correctly at times. I expect to talk to her more in depth as the location wasnt really as appropriete as I would like to have been in.

 

We don't exactly have a game plan to address this issue, but I am a bit optimistic that it at least is on the table in a way that it has never been before.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by notmyrealname

As for my situation, today after an unrelated incident that I over reacted to, I had one more talk with my wife about this issue if for no other reason to impress upon her exactly how important of an issue that this is and that it is ruining my feelings/perception of our marriage.

 

This is a mistake that alot of people make....they get irritated about something "unrelated", and then they start up the unequal libido discussion. Granted, that's really bothering you....but the message you send when you initiate the discussion in this way is one of blame. In essence, "I wouldn't be in a bad mood if it weren't because of you."

 

What she's hearing is your complaint that if you were 'getting it' frequently enough, you wouldn't be mad all the time. That's telling her that you view your sexual intimacy with her as a "bodily function", and she's just a recepticle for it.

 

You can tell her that it's not true. You can TRY to explain until both your face and your balls turn blue. But if the conversation was initiated in anger.....your message is lost.

 

Also, when you start this discussion on the heels of an unrelated quarrel, you minimize the importance of the subject itself. It's easier to dismiss it as so much 'hot air' if she thinks you're mad and acting out regarding the previous "unrelated issue".

 

She needs to hear that the REASON that you wan't sex with her, is because you love HER, and want to be close with her. She needs to understand that it's NOT a bodily function, like going to the toilet, just so you can get some relief.

 

Maybe you might consider writing down a list of the positives aspects of having a satisfying sexual encounter with your wife. Make it really detailed to describe all your feelings afterwards: feelings of validation in your attractiveness as her mate, and her physical avowal of continued love for you. The repletion of having the stress of everyday life drain away, and being carefree for a little while in single-minded attention to your lover, etc.

 

By telling her in specific ways...what you are feeling, and what's so great about her....you can put to rest the notion that you're only interested in the function itself. Afterall, if that's all there was to it, you could just satisfy yourself, right?

 

She needs to understand that your need for intimacy with her is more about her soul than it is about her body....as Moose was saying earlier regarding the difference between "making love" and "having sex".

 

I think it might really be of benefit to you to tackle this problem from the "positive" angle, rather than the negative. Tell her all about the good feelings that you have through the sexual aspects of your relationship.

 

And good job, btw, on suggesting counseling to her. I think it would benefit you both. Your willingness to pursue it will definately make an impression on her.

[amy1975]

LadyJane, you give the OP too much credit-for him, it IS about relieving a need. Like going to the toilet.

 

IMO, most men are this way. But they put pretty labels on it (like 'soul' and 'love') to trick women into thinking that it is 'something more' when really it isn't. Just slap some sappy emotive lables to a bodily urge, and she'll spread her legs. NOT!

 

Hey OP, you know your choices-divorce, affair/hookers, OR get a hold of your urges and jerk off. You are grown man afterall

[Moose]

amy, really, can I ask why are you so bitter?

[amy1975]

Don't try to paint me as a 'bitter 'gasp! feminist" Moose. I don't appreciate it.

 

Do you think Alpaha, I mean, Betamale is bitter too? I've read his posts-or is it only women are bitter, but men are right?

 

Look, I'm just acknowledging REALITY. Which is something no one likes to do, including myself, but I do anyway. Testosterone is REAL. And it makes men do REALLY stupid ****. Like ditch their families because their ****-hole, excuse me, their wife, won't spread legs on demand, like the OP thinks his wife should. Like spend hours on grotesque internet porn involving children and animals. It also goes without saying that 95% of all violent and sexual crimes are committed by men. DId you know that testosterone actually shrinks a mans brain by 10% over his lifetime? Combine that with the lack of blood flow to their brains because its diverted to their cock, I think we can safely say that most men are mildly brain damaged.

 

[color=red]I just want a man to say his need for sex is like the need to take a dump or eat dinner, and quit trying to fool women that its something more than that.[/color] Any takers?? OP? BetaMale? But men don't want to acknowledge that they are little more than animals when it comes to sex. I guess I don't blame them. And i suppose i can't blame women for shutting their eyes to that either.

 

Read Michael Houellebecq's book "Elementary Particles". He, the author, is the most bitter 'feminist' i know of.

 

Moose, i know you are a christian man, and although i am an atheist and generally despise what people have done to Jesus' teachings, I will say that christian men have more capacity to reflect on their actions-in other words, they aren't led around by their cokk. Although the temptation is always there....

[Ladyjane14]

Is that you, Uberfrau???

 

If so, Welcome Back!

 

Whatever.....you make interesting, although somewhat provocative, points about testosterone in men. We do tend to forget that estrogen, progesterone, and limited amounts of androgens is what makes us women what we are.

 

I think certain effects on the libido are natural. As human animals, we aren't designed to be breeding all the time. That said, with a higher thought process...(usually )....than other animals, it's possible for us to consider psychological factors in our decison-making.

 

The OP would indeed benifit by brushing up on his knowledge of female sexuality....particularly in relation to endocrinology, normal and abnormal.

[notmyrealname]

Ok Amy, lets say its nothing more than relieving a “need”. And apparently this need is something that you don’t feel is worthy of your attention. Does that mean that if I think communication is just another worthless need that my wife desires from me I can tell her to shut the ***k up and go talk to herself in the corner until next week cause that’s when I am going to want to talk to her. If she doesn’t like it, she can go call one of her friends, or find someone else to satisfy her need? Wow I never thought of it that way! That’s a great idea! You see, in a good marriage it is give and take in all aspects. If not then one person suffers. I can guess which one that is in your relationship. I doubt that this is the only area that you control. It blows me away that someone would suggest cheating on my wife our using a hooker to satisfy my needs. This may surprise you but I am actually in love with my wife and want to share all of my life including… gasp… yes our sexlife.

 

As far as sex being a purely physical need, that is crap. Otherwise some of the pathetic suggestions mentioned would be just swell. There is an emotional attachment between two loving people and one form of expressing that attachment is the act of sex. It’s not the only expression of love, but it is an important one.

 

The problem with these forums is that you get a small chance to paint a whole picture of a complicated detailed situation. I may not have done a good job of giving all aspects, but mindless comments certainly seem to always float to the top.

 

Ladyjane14, I didn’t mention that I specifically pointed out to her exactly what you are referring to. I completely agree with you on the poor timing of bringing the issue up. I stated to her that I know that it is unrelated and petty but nevertheless it was the basis for my going over the edge. After the incident, she insisted that I tell her what the real problem was because it was pretty evident that the overreacting was a sign of a larger problem. Believe me I wasn’t interested in bringing it up until I had my thoughts more in order. I assured her that I do in fact love her and that is why I suggested counseling. I asked her in a few different circles if there was an emotional need that I wasn’t fulfilling or something about my behavior/personality or something that was making her feel un-attracted to me.

 

She did make a few suggestions in our relationship that I feel should be no problem for me to change. I don’t think anything too terribly major, but if nothing else, she set expectations for me to become a better husband. This is something that I am more than willing to do for her because as I stated I do love her. Whether Amy wants to believe it or not.

[Moose]

Don't try to paint me as a 'bitter 'gasp! feminist" Moose. I don't appreciate it.

Nowhere did I bring up you being a feminist. Bitter, perhaps, but I never said anything about you being a feminist.

Do you think Alpaha, I mean, Betamale is bitter too? I've read his posts-or is it only women are bitter, but men are right?

Trust me, you and Alphamale don't want to hear what I think about him. One thing I will tell you, I definitley don't think he's right about a number,(most), things. That's just my opinion.

It also goes without saying that 95% of all violent and sexual crimes are committed by men. DId you know that testosterone actually shrinks a mans brain by 10% over his lifetime?

I'm like most people on this forum whenever someone uses percentages.....where's your proof? Don't shout out statistics unless you can prove them. As far as men's brains shrinking.....who gives a flippin' care? It doesn't affect anything about it's function.

I think we can safely say that most men are mildly brain damaged.

This is BS. And, it's just your opinion.

I just want a man to say his need for sex is like the need to take a dump or eat dinner, and quit trying to fool women that its something more than that.

Good luck on that. You won't hear it from me. I do agree it's a need, but not in the capacity you think it is. I don't need to, "get my rocks off", I need to express my love and desire to be with my wife in a way that should be exclusive to only her and I. I'm sorry if you can't live with that, that's tough. And it's really a sad fact that you don't see it the way some do. Kind of closed minded on your end isn't it?

Read Michael Houellebecq's book "Elementary Particles". He, the author, is the most bitter 'feminist' i know of.

Not interested. I despise men who treat women this way.

Although the temptation is always there....

You're absolutley right. The big difference is, we don't perceive sex as a need to just go and poke someone with our peckers. We understand that sex should only be shared with your wife as an expression of love.

[portableversion]

the book is also known as Atomized

I think he was saying that sexual reproduction is just bad news and life would be easier if there was no such thing as men or women. He postulated genetic engineering of some kind to create a new race of humans. Everyone would have a baby asexually. he also accurately described some of the horrible things males do to each other especially during the highschool years.

 

The frequency issue is an important topic. I can say I am able to deal with my wife only getting in the mood once every 2 weeks. I had insecurities about sex because i would come quickly without a condom. I actually was afraid of sex for some time, I had to learn to be sensitive to other ways to feel loved because sex was not something I really felt good about. Like now i feel really loved when my wife insists I sleep in the same room when I suggest sleeping in the other room when i can't sleep-- that really makes me feel warm and fuzzy. And i really appreciate it when she calls me on my cell phone.

I do think testosterone is a very powerful life altering chemical. I remember my 1st orgasm in the 6th grade. I had come to develope strange and new exciting feelings for the girls in my class, but after I had j.o.'d I would no longer feel the same way about the girl i had fantasized about. I had always wondered why my attitude about a particular girl would change before and after I had an orgasm. never really found any answers I just new I was now different. I would remember back to my pre-orgasmic days and i knew i had gone through a shift. there was a consistency of feelings which seem now to be forever gone.

I do feel that sex does offer some sort of bonding that non-sexual friends do not share but i can't help but to think that there is a lot of chemical prowress going on.

This all started that day of my first orgasm it subsides but it comes back over and over and over again.

[ILdad]

Well she could tell that I was hurt, and said well I don’t want you to go to bed mad. That was the last words spoken. I lied there awake for a couple of hours next to tears and thought about going to watch TV or something in the living room. My sadness turned to near anger then back to more of despair.

 

I have felt the same way....... I married a nice single mom with 3 kids. We've been married 5 yrs. I have a daughter also for a total of 4 kids. My wife doesn't have to work, but she does part time. Like you, I help with the chores by washing dishes every day after dinner, putting dishes away, cleaning around the house, etc..etc.. We have fun as a family. And, like you, I have been frustrated, hurt, angry, and resentful. I also have withdrawn from sexual activiity.

 

With no initiation on her part, it makes me feel undesired. I also feel unappreciated. I just wanted to write this (1st time I've done this), to let you know there are others that feel the same way.

 

I feel better going to work because, at least, there I am appreciated and I do get compliments from other women which counters my other feelings of not being attractive to my wife.

 

Time will tell....... It was good reading your post.

[Mz. Pixie]

"I explained the vicious circle that I feel we are trapped in which starts or ends with us not having sex, me being unhappy, her seeing that I am unhappy, and her not wanting to have sex because we aren't getting along... I started off the conversation by stating that I think that we need to consider marriage counciling before its too late. I think that made an impression as I have never said that before"

 

Question- is your wife unhappy? This is the cycle I was in in my marriage. My exh said if we would have more sex, he'd try to meet my emotional needs. I tried increasing the frequency and it didn't work. Everytime I said we need to go to counseling and work on our marriage- that was his solution. What he didn't get is that I couldn't have sex with him when I didn't feel like he loved me or when he continually ignored the needs that I had that weren't getting met. If you don't make sure that this is NOT her issue, she will probably never come around to just increasing the frequency to make you happy. Unless you are in counseling.

 

 

"I feel that this time, she understands the impact of the situation. I explained that I have tried a few ideas to increase our frequency and nothing has made an impact. I tried to stress two important facts; 1) That I love her otherwise I wouldn't even try to improve our situation, and 2) Our current frequency isn't working for me at all"

 

I'm telling you- the more you talk the more it makes me feel like she is unhappy somewhere and the only thing she can do is withhold sex.

 

"I told her that I cannot compartmentalize our marriage. If I am not happy in one major aspect (sex) I am not happy in my mood or my ability to show affection for her. She noted that she can tell when I am not happy and can guess why (sex) correctly at times. I expect to talk to her more in depth as the location wasnt really as appropriete as I would like to have been in"

 

No, and she can't either. You guys are in a bitter battle and someone has to be the better person here. It sounds to me like you're determined it has to be her.

If you both sit back and say "I'm not meeting your needs until you meet mine" you are never going to get anywhere. She cannot begin to want to fufill your sexual needs without her emotional needs being met- because it makes her feel like that's all you want from her. I know it's not, you know it's not but trust me, that is how it makes her feel!

[notmyrealname]

Those are some great questions Mz. Pixie!

 

First, I do believe that she is completely happy. Not just in direct and indirect questioning but in her action. If you remove the sexual issue between us, I think both of us are but more importantly here, she is very happy. We rarely argue, money is not an issue, have two fantastic kids, loving families, beautiful house, time to go off together just the two or the four of us, and generally a great/near perfect life. I also dont think it is ever an issue of her withholding sex from a punative stance. I believe (as does she if she is telling me the truth) that she has no interest it. It is something that rarely crosses her mind. She enjoys sex and always reaches a climax (sometimes with assistance other than intercourse) but it is as if she forgets that sex exists. That may be a poor way of explaination but I think it is pretty close. If it were punative, or in response, I would have specific behavior traits that she didnt like about me that I could possibly target to change. As an item of disinterest, its like trying to convince someone to go bungee jumping; they have to be interested in doing it. Nevertheless, your line of thinking is somthing that I though of immediately and hope have discovered that that isnt it!

 

Also, I can understand why you think it is a bitter battle, but I think the feelings that I have are a solid majority of any negative feelings and bitter is not a word I would use to describe it. I definately dont think this is a powerstruggle. As far as who the better person should be, I am more than willing to try and change if there is behavior to change. But her responses to the talk has been as if I am way out in left field more like ... "What do you mean that we have a sex problem?!?!"

 

Finally, talking to her about our sex life is NOT something that I enjoy at least in a complaining manner. Over 8 years of marriage at most we have discussed this 5 times. But I agree on the premise of beating a dead horse. Realisticly, I have nearly the same aversion to the topic that she does. But unless I "communicate" the problem it remains in the closet until it explodes or until it is too late to do anything.

[ILdad]

Originally posted by notmyrealname

 

 

Finally, talking to her about our sex life is NOT something that I enjoy at least in a complaining manner. Over 8 years of marriage at most we have discussed this 5 times. But I agree on the premise of beating a dead horse. Realisticly, I have nearly the same aversion to the topic that she does. But unless I "communicate" the problem it remains in the closet until it explodes or until it is too late to do anything.

[ILdad]

Originally posted by notmyrealname

 

 

Finally, talking to her about our sex life is NOT something that I enjoy at least in a complaining manner. Over 8 years of marriage at most we have discussed this 5 times. But I agree on the premise of beating a dead horse. Realisticly, I have nearly the same aversion to the topic that she does. But unless I "communicate" the problem it remains in the closet until it explodes or until it is too late to do anything.

 

Very well put.. It is the same in our household. Issues get put under the carpet until an eruption. I feel if I say it so many times, it loses it is no longer intimacy, but just forced sex. I'm not turned on by this. I'd like to feel wanted rather than a chore.

 

We've had this problem before, but it just gets worse and now I'm sure she is not as happy.

 

I like some of the other suggestions and have tried them before. I'll keep trying and maybe it will all make sense. Thanks for the replies.

[Mz. Pixie]

I'm not trying to beat up on you. I'm just kinda relating my experience to you.

 

Would people have said we were happy? Yes- as a matter of fact a shockwave went through our church and friends when I left him. I never complained about him really, not even to my dad. I guess if I would have done more complaining then I would have probably gotten more sympathy! We had a beautiful new spacious home, a expensive automobile, two beautiful children who we adore, a great extended family. What we didn't have was a personal relationship between the two of us!

 

I've been coming here, relating my story in the hopes that any man that is in this position will gleen some type of understanding of what their wives might be thinking.

 

What struck me was that you said that she said she couldn't have sex with you when she wasn't happy with you. To me, that translates into when I'm not feeling you on a emotional level, I can't feel you on a sexual level.

 

There was alot of selfishness in my marriage, and I don't exactly feel there is that here.

 

I did have alot of resentment and it reflected itself in the fact that I didn't want to have sex with my exh because I was angry about him neglecting me. The difference is I talked about the issues and he just ran from them. Until I told him I wanted a divorce- then he wanted to work on things but it was just too late for me. Sad............

 

In my relationship now, my BF understands my emotional needs. He is also great in bed. I cannot ever imagine not wanting to have sex with someone who will meet my emotional needs and give me orgasms. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that you are telling me you're meeting her emotional needs, you help around the house, she has orgasms and she STILL doesn't want to have sex??? There is something wrong with this picture- do you see what I'm saying??

 

I think whatever is going on with her she is not talking about.......

[notmyrealname]

I absolutely understand. That is one of the reasons that I have brought the issue up. Without addressing the potential causes or issues of her not wanting sex, I cant change or even begin to change what if anything is wrong. Its not that I cant imagine any problems. But without some sort of open dialog, her desires and needs remain a secret for me to guess at.

 

As far as her not wanting to have sex with me when she wasnt happy with me, what I ment/said was that she doesnt feel close enough to me to have sex, when I am in a bad mood; and for good reason. I stated to her that I know that it is destructive behavior and childish, but in essence I am retaliating for her not wanting to have any thing to do with me. I do believe that in the chicken and the egg example that this presents, not wanting sex with me is the cause. With me being in a bad mood as the effect... which I know... feeds the concept of her not wanting sex... This issue is one of the things that she said I needed to work on and this is not a problem as honestly I have done it intentionally to (as petty as this sounds) make myself feel better.

 

Also, please dont get the impression that I dont apprecieate your comments and suggestions! I value nearly all the comments and suggestions placed on this board.

 

I also agree that there may be something that is not being discussed that she is holding from me. I just dont know what it is!

[RecordProducer]

Originally posted by notmyrealname

I have never cheated but if the opportunity arose, I would have a difficult time saying no.

 

I would too. Sex is very important for happiness. But you're right, it doesn't feel good with a person you're not in love with. I just wanted to support your point of view and show you some compassion on my side. I can't imagine not having sex with my husband at least a few times a week or in the worst case once a week. But I've been married only 3 years and my marriage was very bad. But I have sexual needs and I like satisfying them. If my husband is a normally potent guy that gets a good erection, likes the fore-play, loves to kiss, and doesn't finish after 5-10 minutes, I can't imagine not desiring him. Being busy and tired wouldn't stop me. Matter of fact, when I am tired I am hornier. Sex is fun after all.

 

I can't believe that Amy thinks sex is no more than like going to the toilet for a man! There's a lot she needs to learn about men other than those she's been with.