He ended it, and I feel numb.

[goodgirlgonebad15]

Yup. I do believe him. You guys forget that I've known this person for two decades and have been friends for a long, long time. You don't know him. I do.

 

And I'm growing resentful of the outright statements that I'm gullible, that he's lying to me and manipulating me. He's not. End of story. And I'm not going to go into detail about why. A quick "love you" is much different than a real expression of love. He hasn't received that in a really, really, long time - if ever. His wife is repressed beyond what any of you can imagine.

 

Not every MM is a manipulative *******. Some really do live in completely DEAD marriages.

 

Ok RoseVille. You are right and we are wrong. Better?

 

And I will say this one last time. Unless you are a fly on the wall of their marriage then you know nothing other than what he tells you.

 

You have know him for years....and....his wife knew him for years and here he is lying and decieving her...I'm just saying.

 

I just don't get it, RoseVille. You cry eyes out for support and then when you get a crumb from him, you throw everything back in our faces like we don't get it or are against you. I have said it more than once on this board. "It only feels like an attack when it is the truth we don't want to hear." Been there done that. I don't know you or him but I know your story. The end.

 

And to your very last statement...does it not bother you that he vaules his DEAD, loveless marriage more than his supposed wonderful, amazing love for you? You don't have to answer, just think on it.

[RoseVille]

The problem is, you're calling what he's doing a crumb, without having ANY IDEA WHATSOEVER what he's doing/saying.

 

No clue. Not a one. And yet you call it a crumb.

[Minnie09]

I think it's ok to stay put in the A, for her, if she's satisfied with the status quo.

The only thing I would be careful about is his comments on his M, and his comments on his R with his W. They're married and will stay married, and whatever he says could either be the truth, a lie, or a spur of the moment thing. It doesn't really matter though.....the outcome will be the same either way. I don't think he'll leave.....or else he'd be more adamant about it. Or he'd voice it one way or another. I personally never ask my MM anything about his M, and I never talk about our future. I'm good right now. Don't want to change things. He's the one who brings up the future every now and then.....and where we will live blahblahhhhh...... he's also never been a pusher/puller, always very consistent with everything.......keeping in touch, reaching out, being proactive, making plans, buying gifts, ....... and yet - I am still very careful and never take anything at face value. The best thing to do for any OW is always to not expect anything. If you're looking for a change of your relationship/situation/affair status it's better to just end it. And then see what happens. Because obviously, if you want to change the A dynamics, there's something you're not content with.....but you're not in charge. As an OW you're never in charge. So IMO the only conclusion to this is: end the A if you want to change the dynamics. There's nothing else you can do.

[Bittersweetie]

The problem is, you're calling what he's doing a crumb, without having ANY IDEA WHATSOEVER what he's doing/saying.

 

No clue. Not a one. And yet you call it a crumb.

 

Rose, all these women are trying to help based on their own experiences, some of having been exactly where you are. Some having been married AP. Unfortunately, we have all thought at one point that our A situation was unique. The odds have been against that fact for most of us, as you have probably seen by spending time on this board.

 

You won't share what the "crumb" is. That's fine, that's your prerogative. If you think it is enough, then it is enough. All I would ask is to keep your eyes open and your heart protected a bit for now. Maybe he is making changes to be with you full time; maybe he is doing what he can so you stay as is.

 

Good luck, BSW

[jen1447]

And to your very last statement...does it not bother you that he vaules his DEAD, loveless marriage more than his supposed wonderful, amazing love for you? You don't have to answer, just think on it.

Rose has said before that he values his kids, not the marriage. He tries to make the marriage work for the sake of his relationship with the kids.

[lana-banana]

I was tempted to ignore your responses altogether since it's obvious you're very hurt and lashing out. I understand you may feel attacked, but no one here is trying to upset you.

 

It's true, we have no idea what he's saying or doing, but you're the one saying he's simply "emotionally present" (as opposed to physically). You are desperately trying to make what little he's done seem meaningful when it's just the same push-pull all over again.

 

Why not tell us what actually happened? If he moved out and left his wife for you, why not just say so? Anything less than that I just can't take seriously, nor should you. Someone who truly wants to be with you will move heaven and earth to make it happen. This guy isn't, hasn't, and won't.

 

It doesn't matter how long you've known him. You are not a party to his marriage. You have absolutely no idea what happens between them and you don't even know if anything he tells her is true. All you know is he's capable of long-term deception and fooling someone he loves---but somehow he'd never do that to you?

 

Not every MM is a manipulative *******. Some really do live in completely DEAD marriages.

 

And yet he repeatedly chooses this "completely DEAD marriage" over you. That makes no sense whatsoever unless, of course, the marriage isn't completely dead and he's actually quite happy the way things are now. Don't tell me it's about "the kids", either; I know plenty of people who have divorced with children of all ages and managed to work things out relatively smoothly.

 

Listen to yourself. Please. You are falling to pieces in front of our eyes and it's heartbreaking to watch. Please do whatever it takes to put yourself first.

[minime13]

There is not a single person using things against you. What everyone here is doing is trying to use examples to show what is going on from the outside.

 

No, we don't know him, and you know him better. But there is another part of his life that you don't completely know - just what he lets you in on. I would be willing to bet that his wife would argue that she knows him better than you - and so-on.

 

There is manipulation in every affair, whether the marriage is dead or not. To be involved in one is to accept the good as well as bad. Some people are concerned that you will not be able to do this.

 

It's okay to be frustrated because you're not hearing what you want, and some people disagree with what you're doing. It's natural to be defensive about any relationship you deem important. However, it does not mean that we're all out to get you.

[goodgirlgonebad15]

Rose has said before that he values his kids, not the marriage. He tries to make the marriage work for the sake of his relationship with the kids.

 

Now where have I seen this before?? Oh yea outta every MM's mouth when it comes time to make hard choices....

[goodgirlgonebad15]

The problem is, you're calling what he's doing a crumb, without having ANY IDEA WHATSOEVER what he's doing/saying.

 

No clue. Not a one. And yet you call it a crumb.

 

IMHO anything less than a profession of love , followed by actions of him leaving the wife and filing for divorce, is a crumb.

[MissBee]

I don't think he'll ever get caught. I just don't. Yes, when he initially tried to end, or really, "cool off" (to use his words) the affair, it was because he was getting sloppy and was afraid of getting caught. And sometimes he still is sloppy. But in the deepest parts of my gut, given the manner in which the A is carried out and his W's lack of access to the very things that would carry any evidence, if/when the affair ends, it won't be because he was caught.

 

As for my feelings? So many of you tell me dealing with stuff like this isn't a linear process. And yet, when I'm open and vulnerable to you and show you the rollercoaster of my emotions, you use it against me as "proof." Proof of what, exactly? That he's confused? That I'm confused? Ding ding ding, you've won.

 

I don't need to win anything.

 

I think most people were pointing out that grief is not a linear process. I think that's on the assumption (based on the thread) that things are ending and most have been talking about the different emotions you'll feel mourning the end of an attachment. I don't really think the talk of process was to discuss the normal ebbs and flows of a relationship or to explain that it's normal to feel like this in a relationship.

 

I think what people mean if anything is that the swings and saying one thing and then another are testament to how unhealthy the situation is or the level of rationalizing and downplaying that has to go on and once you have to do that that's a sign that things are probably not great.

 

Like I said though, BTDT, except my A wasn't as tumultuous tbh and no one was confused, nothing was confusing: your guy sounds conflicted but I think confused makes it seem like you guys lack understanding when it's not a matter of that but the obvious conflicts of an A. While I wasn't confused neither was my exAP I've been in a similar situation in a non-A and have a friend currently in an A and I mentioned before that she does and says similar kinds of things. But at this point I (and our other friends) are pretty hands off about it. The proof is in the pudding that the situation is messed up and she's not happy...none of my friends in good relationships are crying about their man and constantly need advice about their situation. I mean of course once in a while they may have a small issue they ask opinions on but it's not like her case... When we point it out that you were just crying last week, saying you're done, he's never leaving, he doesn't do xyz you take it back and downplay it and say we don't understand or its not that bad or something else and make it seem like you never said or did any of those things and we don't understand so we're like fine. We'll smile and nod and hope you figure it out because your defenses are way up.

 

Same here Rose. My genuine thoughts regarding any relationship and my own rule of thumb for myself is that : if it's an uphill battle, if you've been broken up with more than once, if your person says they cannot give you what you need, if you feel your heart has been ripped out and you want to die (your words), and if everyone is confused and he has prior issues of being unloved but still staying married... It's probably not something to continue to invest in. How can that possibly be the makings of a sustainable loving relationship? It's not. Problematic relationships always come with signings and smoking guns and yours have all the marks of such.

 

That may be the only "proof" that people are pointing out. You came here with different questions about LTAs and I think knowing all of that and all the updates people are saying it seems unlikely that this situation is stable enough to go on long term and certainly not without a lot of emotional costs for you. That's the only proof if there is any. But like I said, most people will need to jump off the cliff anyway to see if they'll make it or not. I think esp those who've been there feel like please don't do it and like if they can stop someone else from careening over the edge they try to but then I do have to step back and question if I would have listened when I was the OW and that the pull to do it is strong so it's likely one of those things where you just have to see for yourself.

[Got it]

There is not a single person using things against you. What everyone here is doing is trying to use examples to show what is going on from the outside.

 

No, we don't know him, and you know him better. But there is another part of his life that you don't completely know - just what he lets you in on. I would be willing to bet that his wife would argue that she knows him better than you - and so-on.

 

There is manipulation in every affair, whether the marriage is dead or not. To be involved in one is to accept the good as well as bad. Some people are concerned that you will not be able to do this.

 

It's okay to be frustrated because you're not hearing what you want, and some people disagree with what you're doing. It's natural to be defensive about any relationship you deem important. However, it does not mean that we're all out to get you.

 

I am sorry but that is not true. There was zero manipulation in my affair between my AP and myself.

 

How do you know this absolute is true?

 

And if Roseville is getting what she wants now from him, then why does everyone need to push her to end it? Whether or not it is a crumb, or ends next week, next month, next year, next decade, Roseville will come to the conclusion on her own .

 

While I understand that many affairs are doom and gloom, all are not. And I get a little annoyed that people paint them as such. While "yours" (proverbial you) may have been that doesn't mean it is for everyone and not everyone feels they accept crumbs.

 

And staying does not mean one is prioritizing the marriage - people do stay for the kids, because it is easier, because change is scary, because of whatever. Right, wrong, whatever, staying doesn't mean they are valuing their marriage. Being transparent, getting help, remorseful, recommitting to their spouse and starting the hard work on the healing process - that is prioritizing the marriage.

 

Rose, only you can decide what your dealbreakers are and when you reach a point where enough isn't enough. For some this is a short road, for others longer. Does the good outweigh the bad? And decide are you truly happy? Is what he giving you enough?

[Got it]

IMHO anything less than a profession of love , followed by actions of him leaving the wife and filing for divorce, is a crumb.

 

Okay but this isn't you. For Rose, this may not mean it's a crumb. Just like for some an affair is a dealbreaker and for others it isn't.

 

People have differing lines and those can change with the person over time. But these are not hard and fast absolutes.

[MissBee]

I meant to add to that coming to your senses is also not a linear process, I'll give you that as well lol. You're smart, I think you know the truth deep down, and even if we resist it we can't really deny it all that long and sometimes it takes a while to fully come out of the "confusion."

[RoseVille]

IMHO anything less than a profession of love , followed by actions of him leaving the wife and filing for divorce, is a crumb.

 

That's your measuring stick, not mine.

[minime13]

I am sorry but that is not true. There was zero manipulation in my affair between my AP and myself.

 

How do you know this absolute is true?

 

And if Roseville is getting what she wants now from him, then why does everyone need to push her to end it? Whether or not it is a crumb, or ends next week, next month, next year, next decade, Roseville will come to the conclusion on her own .

 

While I understand that many affairs are doom and gloom, all are not. And I get a little annoyed that people paint them as such. While "yours" (proverbial you) may have been that doesn't mean it is for everyone and not everyone feels they accept crumbs.

 

And staying does not mean one is prioritizing the marriage - people do stay for the kids, because it is easier, because change is scary, because of whatever. Right, wrong, whatever, staying doesn't mean they are valuing their marriage. Being transparent, getting help, remorseful, recommitting to their spouse and starting the hard work on the healing process - that is prioritizing the marriage.

 

Rose, only you can decide what your dealbreakers are and when you reach a point where enough isn't enough. For some this is a short road, for others longer. Does the good outweigh the bad? And decide are you truly happy? Is what he giving you enough?

 

Yes, there is always manipulation in affairs. If there were not, they'd be open relationships.

 

The person having the affair is controlling a situation between 2 partners. It may be as simple as that, but there is manipulation. Sorry but it goes hand-in-hand.

 

If Roseville was getting what she wanted, these threads wouldn't exist.

[RoseVille]

Yes, there is always manipulation in affairs. If there were not, they'd be open relationships.

 

The person having the affair is controlling a situation between 2 partners. It may be as simple as that, but there is manipulation. Sorry but it goes hand-in-hand.

 

If Roseville was getting what she wanted, these threads wouldn't exist.

 

While I agree with their being deception/manipulation between the MM and his BS most of the time, that does not necessarily mean that the MM is deceiving his OW in every case.

 

Having been on both sides of the cheating wagon, I know for a fact I was fully honest and truthful with no tinges of deception to my other guy.

 

You also assume I want him to leave his wife right now. You can't tell me I'm not getting what I want simply because you THINK I'm not getting what you'd want/previously wanted.

 

I started this thread because he asked to take a step back and cool things off. So yeah, that wasn't what I wanted.

[sandylee1]

 

And if Roseville is getting what she wants now from him, then why does everyone need to push her to end it?

 

Howabout because having an affair with a married man is wrong?Or isn't that a good enough reason?

 

But back to Rose......

 

It's heartbreaking for you

It's settling for being a secret on the side

It's damaging to your emotional wellbeing

It's not something your proud of

 

 

 

There's lots more

[Got it]

Yes, there is always manipulation in affairs. If there were not, they'd be open relationships.

 

The person having the affair is controlling a situation between 2 partners. It may be as simple as that, but there is manipulation. Sorry but it goes hand-in-hand.

 

If Roseville was getting what she wanted, these threads wouldn't exist.

 

And speaking from direct experience, no, there isn't ALWAYS manipulation between the APs.

 

Have you had an affair? Have you been a MAP? You may be manipulating it with your spouse but I never was anything but completely honest with my AP. That was the beauty of the affair, I could be me without concerns. I didn't need to lie to him.

 

So, sorry, it doesn't go hand and hand.

 

And again, you are speaking for Roseville, for me, as if you are an absolute authority on things that aren't factual, just opinion.

 

And Roseville may be getting what she wants, she may not, she may end up, she may not, she may compromise, she may not. But a thread does not mean that it is an absolute.

 

Is she struggling? Yes. Have the dynamics changed? Yes. Is that the point of no return? I don't know. You don' t know. That is something Roseville is muddling through.

 

I posted threads during my affair, not here, when I worried over things, happy about things, mad about things. They were a microcosm of the relationship but not necessarily the defining moment of it. Posting can be a means to working through for acceptance. Some people find acceptance in the affair and continue on, some find it through breaking up, some find it through other means.

 

But it is a process that the person has to get through. And I will say the more people harp, demean, insult, and bully the person what they think OUGHT to be done, the more likely the person digs in their heels. It is not allowing the person to work through to acceptance since they are being hit with every dissenting thought.

 

Roseville is a very smart lady who will get to her bottom line and figure out what is best for her. I have faith in her on this and know that it will take as long as it will take. All life decisions take that long.

[RoseVille]

Howabout because having an affair with a married man is wrong?Or isn't that a good enough reason?

 

Obviously, it's not. Otherwise it never would have started.

 

It's not wise, it's not smart, it's not the best situation. It's wrong for him. But I struggle with taking any responsibility or blame or sense of "wrong"ness. I guess I'm immoral.

[Got it]

Howabout because having an affair with a married man is wrong?Or isn't that a good enough reason?

 

But back to Rose......

 

It's heartbreaking for you

It's settling for being a secret on the side

It's damaging to your emotional wellbeing

It's not something your proud of

 

 

 

There's lots more

 

No. Because that has nothing to do with where she is at. And little to nothing to do with this forum.

 

If that was it this forum wouldn't exist. So Roseville has already moved passed that point, as did I, and decided that having an affair was a deal breaker. It wasn't Nobel prize winning, but obviously not a deal breaker.

[RoseVille]

And speaking from direct experience, no, there isn't ALWAYS manipulation between the APs.

 

Have you had an affair? Have you been a MAP? You may be manipulating it with your spouse but I never was anything but completely honest with my AP. That was the beauty of the affair, I could be me without concerns. I didn't need to lie to him.

 

So, sorry, it doesn't go hand and hand.

 

And again, you are speaking for Roseville, for me, as if you are an absolute authority on things that aren't factual, just opinion.

 

And Roseville may be getting what she wants, she may not, she may end up, she may not, she may compromise, she may not. But a thread does not mean that it is an absolute.

 

Is she struggling? Yes. Have the dynamics changed? Yes. Is that the point of no return? I don't know. You don' t know. That is something Roseville is muddling through.

 

I posted threads during my affair, not here, when I worried over things, happy about things, mad about things. They were a microcosm of the relationship but not necessarily the defining moment of it. Posting can be a means to working through for acceptance. Some people find acceptance in the affair and continue on, some find it through breaking up, some find it through other means.

 

But it is a process that the person has to get through. And I will say the more people harp, demean, insult, and bully the person what they think OUGHT to be done, the more likely the person digs in their heels. It is not allowing the person to work through to acceptance since they are being hit with every dissenting thought.

 

Roseville is a very smart lady who will get to her bottom line and figure out what is best for her. I have faith in her on this and know that it will take as long as it will take. All life decisions take that long.

 

Thank you for this.

 

Every one of my threads turns into this. :/

[Got it]

Thank you for this.

 

Every one of my threads turns into this. :/

 

So, I see that. This is why when I was in my affair, while I was a member here, I rarely posted on this forum. It isn't a fair platform to work through things.

 

Roseville, my advice, write down a pros and cons list. What do you like about things today, what don't you life and then rank them. Where do they fall?

 

You know that no matter what, you will be fine. If you decide to put a pin in him, put him on a shelf and see what else life has to offer, he will be there if you come back. But you have to decide what is good enough and what you want. Journal your thoughts, work out what you have to have in your life, and decide if what he has to offer is good enough for you.

 

Good luck to you. Have faith in you. And make sure you are being your own best advocate. Go after what you want and don't be afraid to walk away from anything that isn't giving you what you are looking for.

[Giggle]

It's damaging to your emotional wellbeing

 

 

Huh. Says whom? I was just telling my mm that I feel like I'm better for having had him in my life. I wouldn't have missed it. It definitely has had its sucky times, but so does every relationship. It is amazing to have someone in your life so accepting of who you are and cheering you on and being a shoulder when you need it. We're a couple of silly nuts and it's awesome.

[sandylee1]

 

If Roseville was getting what she wanted, these threads wouldn't exist.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^This is spot on.

 

Rose to say you're getting what you want is not being honest with yourself.

 

You really want this man honestly and openly and the simple fact is despite his DEAD and LOVELESS marriage, he's not leaving his wife anytime soon.

 

You don't like people pointing things out and say it's attacking you.

 

Why would people take the time and trouble to read your threads if they weren't trying to support you?

 

People are giving advice because they've been there.

Others are advising from different viewpoints, but I haven't read anything that isn't intended to help and support you.

 

I can tell you anyone who loves and cares about you, like your parents, siblings, other family members and friends would want you out of this affair.

[MissBee]

I also think the question of evidence and proof is about another argument running through your threads which is that of, you're happy, you are getting what you want from this and if you say so we should take you at your word.

 

I said in another thread of yours that people say lots of things all the time and if you're astute you don't just listen to one thing but look at other things as well and see if they add up then come to an opinion based on that information. I think that's what folks may be reacting to Rose. Someone saying things are great, it's making them happy etc while in another breath they talk about dying inside and so on. The question then becomes: which do we believe as the truth? The backtracking or usually the initial displeasure which led to the thread?

 

IMHO and experience usually, esp on LS when people come here to share, their dissatisfaction is usually the stronger emotion and the underlying steady thing that they usually go back to and that's usually interspersed with them talking themselves into being happy about it later on.

 

To use my friend again as an example, we've been friends for 3 years and roommates for one. Throughout that time I have seen the roller coaster, been privy to the mistress meltdowns, we've talked about what she would wish for him to do if she could make it happen etc and from that I know her lifelong dream isn't to be his OW. She accepts it and settles essentially because she is in love with this guy. Unsurprisingly her thing too is, " he won't open up to me but I know he didn't grow up being emotionally expressive, he's very closed off, plus he's former military, and I know it will take time for him to be vulnerable (it's been 6 years) but he's making progress (insert new victory based on him telling her one thing that is pretty oar for the course in relationships well before 6 years).. Of course she is happy sometimes but at the end of the day the happiness is never long lasting and is always interrupted by a break up because she's tired of it, asking for more and him saying he can't then she gets despondent and says she's done and then next week while I'm thinking it's over she says casually that she's going to see him... or two weeks later it's "I love him so much, he's so great. You know I think maybe if he just gets me pregnant I'll be happy...my mom's friend was an OW for 25 years" (this is an actual thing she has said). Now in her case what should I believe? That's she's actually quite happy and the other melt downs are blips on the radar and otherwise irrelevant and we should just take her at her word when she is in a happy spell? Should we read the dissatisfaction, that she isn't getting what she ultimately wants and the meltdowns as her being confused and the spells of being happy as her thinking clearly? In my experience she's only happy when she's not thinking clearly and saying stuff about him getting her pregnant and things that make no sense and is a sad when she weighs more realistic options.

 

Long story short I think when people tell us things we look at the pattern and the whole case and if it's a mixture of melt downs, break ups, wanting to die and then just kidding I love it, you realize these things don't compute and usually one outweighs the other and is closer to your true desires and whether you're living your truth or not and I think that's what people react to when they point out discrepancies. It's not to win anything or attack you but to say hey sometimes you wanna die and sometimesay it's fine... Which one is stronger, when do you feel these two things, why does it go up and down, what do these divergent feelings mean? When I'm with emotionally available men who are all in with me who are giving me what I need and all is well, I don't ever swing from one side to the other. It's not a bed of roses but it's much more stable. Being someone who is a recovering dater of the unavailable man the pendulum of wanting to die and being on cloud nine, which I associated with an epic love, is so familiar to me except now I know that if I'm with a man and my emotions swing like that and he is "confused" or I feel confused, it's a one way ticket to unavailable drama city and likely unsustainable. It's addicting as hell though, or used to be for me anyway, except now I can't do it and immediately when I feel that push and pull cycle I take my heels off and run for the exit before I'm neck deep in it.

 

I respect people's right to their feelings but I'm no dummy and know that it's easier for people to tell themselves they are okay when they are not than it is for them to be wrong about feeling shiiitty.

Edited June 10, 2015 by MissBee