Committed relationship without marriage????

June 18, 2015

Redhead,

You make some excellent points, and that's not a bad way that skweezd could approach her desires.

skweezd:
I think you are placing WAY too much importance on marriage. If it was that important, it should have seriously been in your discussion long time ago.

Sounds like you have a PERFECT relationship. Why ruin it of some governmental piece of paper.

You can have ALL the benefits of marriage, and the advantages of being single without the legalities.

A good suggestion, if you wish to "proclaim" you love for each other to family and friends, is to have your own private ceremony without the legal paperwork, and you can make it special just ike you want.

You can protect yourselves financially, medically and other ways just like marriage does, without government and lawyers getting involved. Plus, there can be huge financial benefits for remaining single (see post above).

You can make all the commitments you want and live forever.... but have it come from the heart (not the government).

The comment of "If I'm good enough to live with, then I'm good enough to marry" is very weak and undermined. I can be interpreted to say..."If I'm married to you, then I can screw you in the divorce".

If you REALLY LOVE this guy and he REALLY LOVES you.... you can make it work without the government's paperwork. Love comes from the heart.

You can also (in some states), become a significant other... there are legal advantages to this when it comes to things like spouse benefits at work that require it, so there are options.

Also, all of this requires the agreement of BOTH of you... Discuss it and make it work. Don't throw away a loving relationship just because of a government piece of paper that means nothing from the heart.

Best to you.

Old Rover,

Thank you Thank you Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Our relationship is not perfect by any means, but we work things out always. We talk, we laugh, we love. I am very happy, happier then I've ever been in a relationship, even my previous marriage. I would hate to throw it away and then have regrets as someone else quickly jumps into the life I could have had with my Mr Wonderful. I truly love him.

Skweezd

June 18, 2015

skweezd, how did his marriage end? What was the gap between his divorce and the start of your relationship?

Also, are there significant differences in your pre-relationship financial status? In the expectations of estates and heirs?

Regardless of how correct one might see his position as being, you have to consider that it might be well earned and hard learned...

Mr. Lucky

Mr Lucky

We were both married once before, both in our 20's. Fortunately for both of us, we had divorces we easily just had papers signed and kept what was ours. Neither of us had ugly divorces or alimony or child support issues. In fact, he was a single dad raising two kids, his ex was an alcoholic. So there are no hang ups from past relationships. And both of us had plenty of single/dating time in between our marriage and finding each other via online dating (yes it actually does work sometimes).

As for financials, he is self employed and doing well for himself. I work in healthcare and do alright. Neither of us have debt. We are in good shape.

His only point of view about marriage that I have heard is that he does not need a government piece of paper telling us we love each other. And I can accept that, or choose to move on because I don't. But I clearly do not want to lose him. So I'm stuck.... he has agreed to a commitment ceremony. It may be the answer

Skweezd

June 18, 2015

What are the pros for the person with all of the assets and is the bread winner? Honestly?

OP, have you considered the route where you ask him to have a ceremony with friends and family, a priest (if that's your bag), and simply skip registering your marriage with the state? Why does the state have to think that you're married for it to be real? If the issue is that you want people to see you two as husband and wife and that you want to demonstrate your love to friends and family then a ceremony should be enough. There is no reason anyone needs to know that you're not legally "married". He could include you in his will and give you all rights as far as life-support options etc. all with a lawyer for relatively cheap.

This is exactly what I will be doing with my girlfriend. She lives with me in my house and I pay all of the bills. We have been together for 5 years as well and it's time we get married as I love her to death and cannot imagine my life without her, but I don't see the need to make it legal. I know I love her and I will stay with her for the rest of my life assuming she doesn't do anything to make me lose respect for her (ie cheat). If I did marry her she could cheat on me tomorrow and I couldn't leave because I'd lose everything. All the while she could leave at any point during the marriage and walk away with at least half of my assets and a chunk of my paycheck each month. I trust her implicitly but people change, she could meet some douchebag that she feels she has a better emotional connection with ten years from now when she discovers new things about herself and a plethora of new hobbies and decide to leave me for him, who knows.

Another point to make is that a legal marriage COSTS money, and no I'm not talking about the cost of a reception which is outrageously expensive on its own. Many people are under the impression that you get a tax break if you're married. This is NOT the case if you are both making money you actually lose thousands of dollars in tax breaks for being single. For instance, if two individuals make 100k a year each and then get married, they will be paying upwards of 10k extra a year in taxes, this is a fact it's called "the marriage tax". This could be put in a mutual fund for retirement or to save for your kids college tuition. It's SMART, I'm sure he loves you to death but he is a smart guy and I wouldn't let your emotions throw away something because he is being practical and you're being irrational. Honestly no offense by that, I can sympathize as my girlfriend is going what you're going through, but it IS irrational. She understands why this is a smart decision mostly for me at first but also for both of us because once she graduates she will be making more money than me, in which case we will save on taxes and she can save for herself if she so desires.

One last point, a pre-emptive rebuttal for those who say that it's the financial reasons that help keep people together and teach them to take the marriage seriously and work on it in the first place. To those people I have to say that I've seen multiple marriages that are completely superficial for these exact reasons. I REFUSE to be in a loveless marriage for either financial reasons or for my children's sake. I've witnessed friends who grew up with married parents who did not love each other. They were far worse off than those whose parents split and then found true love later on in life. If you need the consequences of divorce for motivation to stay together, communicate, and work on your problems, then you should NOT be together.

TL;DR OP, are you worried that he doesn't truly love you? A ceremony with friends and family without filing for marriage with the state should put your mind at ease. I know I couldn't have a ceremony demonstrating my love in front of friends and family if it weren't true. Then again, people get legit married all the time that aren't in love so even a typical marriage may not put your mind at ease. What's your real motivation for needing to get him to marry you?

Thank you for your very honest letter. I do appreciate it. I have been looking for the male point of view to better help me understand my situation. Now let me give you some insight into my world.

Lately I have been seeing many of my 40+ y.o. friends entering into the second marriages and having mature, loving relationships. So yes maybe some of it is romance for me, but believe me when I say that I love this man deeply, soulfully more then I knew I could love another.

Also, I work in healthcare so I see accident victims. I also had my own personal health scare a few years ago which still is a problem for me. I had a brain aneurysm that ruptured. I survived with no physical deficits. I do continue to have brain coiling surgeries every year or so. I worry that one day I won't be around. I do want the security of knowing he has my back and can, if needed, make my medical decisions legally. As we all know, we would have to be married for that to happen unless we have a Medical Power of Attorney drawn up which could be the answer for us.

I have no desire to rape him financially ever. Should I ever leave for any reason, I would take what I came into the relationship with. That's who I am.

So yes, a commitment ceremony may be the answer. It is something we have both talked about and both agree upon. I believe it's the "meet me in the middle" answer.

June 18, 2015

I think it's pretty obvious I'm pro marriage, I also don't believe that a piece of paper makes the relationship any more loving, but it does make you more secure.

I also don't understand all the lawyer talk maybe I missed the part where he wants a prenup? If your going to go through all the trouble of a ceremony, and then have to get lawyers to give him legal rights to make decisions on your behalf, why not just get married? then you both get all the benefits without needing a lawyer.

I guess I'm just old fashioned and don't understand

I hope you can work something out that's acceptable for you both, and I wish you the best.

June 18, 2015

I think it's pretty obvious I'm pro marriage, I also don't believe that a piece of paper makes the relationship any more loving, but it does make you more secure.

I also don't understand all the lawyer talk maybe I missed the part where he wants a prenup? If your going to go through all the trouble of a ceremony, and then have to get lawyers to give him legal rights to make decisions on your behalf, why not just get married? then you both get all the benefits without needing a lawyer.

I guess I'm just old fashioned and don't understand

I hope you can work something out that's acceptable for you both, and I wish you the best.

Thank you Mr Carlson. I believe somebody else brought up a prenup. Personally we never discussed it. I do hope in time that my love does begin to see things differently and wants to be married. At this time I do not see that in the near future. I have some soul searching. This thread has been very helpful and I do appreciate all the feedback.

June 18, 2015

I want to point out something . . . you two agreed at some point that marriage was not necessary to "seal" your commitment to each other. In my mind though what you have agreed to is COMMITMENT on that level. In other words, you have mutually committed to each other and the "lock" down is in your heart, mind and words. You are BOUND by your word/agreement and hearts.

You are "married" by your word now. So, you can't go back on your word and leave him now. Marriage/commitment says that you are now obligated to work on and with each other when things arise that need to be dealt with. You cannot just "bail" as if you were still dating.

To me, while a couple is dating and moving toward marriage, you don't really have to "work", at least as hard, to resolve issues that are big if you don't want to. The "option" to leave the situation is there. But after you are married or declare commitment, you do owe it to each other to do that.

What is the point of dating with the goal of commitment and having/making a COMMITMENT if you can still just up and leave? Commitment is binding. I'm not saying that if a partner becomes abusive or neglectful, what have you, that the other can't or shouldn't get out. He is being a good "husband" in mind and spirit and you are being a good "wife" in mind and spirit. He is living up to his COMMITMENT, so should you.

My point is that you've agreed to commitment without marriage, but you are still committed. Commitment is commitment. You should let him know your feelings on the subject have changed. You need to at least talk to him about it. I still recommend the approach I presented above. But I don't think it's right for you to leave if his opinion hasn't changed.

June 18, 2015

Yes SandyLee, you are correct... I am not ready to leave. I am completely in love with this man and am committed to him. A piece of me is hurt because we are not in the process of making a commitment to marry after five years of being together. I'm just trying to figure out if that one thing is something I would eventually leave for because I do not have it and he is aware that it make work out that way. And I also do not want to feel less wanted by him because of this either, yet at times it's hard not to even though he absolutely does nothing to make me feel unloved. This is very difficult, and processing it over and over is not making it any easier on me.

I don't understand exactly why you are hurt by this. Did you simply agree with his stance in the beginning hoping he would change it at some point? If you did, you've been stringing yourself along in that case. I could see you being hurt if he had said he did want marriage at some point and it's dragging out, etc. Sure, he might have changed his mind, but it sounds like he's reiterated that stance at least a couple of times.

Don't push the marriage issue. Your relationship is working. Try to get a ring or symbol at least but don't ruin the relationship. It's working and maybe better that most marriages because he's in it because he wants to be, not because he's bound. And, that should be the case with you.

This is not a valid grounds for leaving in my book.

June 18, 2015

Thank you Mr Carlson. I believe somebody else brought up a prenup. Personally we never discussed it. I do hope in time that my love does begin to see things differently and wants to be married. At this time I do not see that in the near future. I have some soul searching. This thread has been very helpful and I do appreciate all the feedback.

He may never want to get married and that is what you have to face here. he is not some 25 yo who is just scared and unsure, and will want to marry at 31 - your man is a grown up experienced adult who has been married before.

If after 5 years, he is not wanting to get married then what on earth can you do now to persuade him otherwise?

If you can honestly say that it doesn't matter, then fine. accept it for what it is, but if you KNOW you will spend years hoping and wishing fruitlessly and it will ruin your life and potentially his too, then you have to do some damage control, no matter how hard that may be just now.

Have the talk RH14 proposes, but if you get nowhere then hard choices may need to be made for your future sanity.

June 18, 2015

I don't mean to offend anyone here , but

having a celebration /ceremony

Getting a commitment ring

Just seems to me like pretending you're married.

You're either married or your not.

If your not married, why tell people you are?

If a piece of paper means nothing , then why does a ring mean anything. If that's your stance , then you can declare your love and commitment behind closed doors.

A commitment ceremony , seems to me like not really wanting that full commitment of a relationship for whatever reason .

June 18, 2015

Thank you for your very honest letter. I do appreciate it. I have been looking for the male point of view to better help me understand my situation. Now let me give you some insight into my world.
Lately I have been seeing many of my 40+ y.o. friends entering into the second marriages and having mature, loving relationships. So yes maybe some of it is romance for me, but believe me when I say that I love this man deeply, soulfully more then I knew I could love another.
Also, I work in healthcare so I see accident victims. I also had my own personal health scare a few years ago which still is a problem for me. I had a brain aneurysm that ruptured. I survived with no physical deficits. I do continue to have brain coiling surgeries every year or so. I worry that one day I won't be around. I do want the security of knowing he has my back and can, if needed, make my medical decisions legally. As we all know, we would have to be married for that to happen unless we have a Medical Power of Attorney drawn up which could be the answer for us.
I have no desire to rape him financially ever. Should I ever leave for any reason, I would take what I came into the relationship with. That's who I am.
So yes, a commitment ceremony may be the answer. It is something we have both talked about and both agree upon. I believe it's the "meet me in the middle" answer.

Skweezd,

(not an attorney) What you need is a Living Will. You can find hundreds of good examples online. You can create your own, or have an attorney do it (shouldn't cost more than a few hundred as they have boiler plate stuff and simple change for your conditions). You can easily read up on what's required. More than likely, you'll need it notarized with two witnesses (common in many states).

And, you can still go on with a ton of other paperwork, for financial protection, based on what you two decide, like wills, trusts, shared accounts, etc. You can to all of this yourself, but would suggest a class or serious study in this area, which is not hard to do. I go to a trust class about every two years to keep up to date, but I do a LOT of trust work. A great vehicle for sharing things. You'll probably need all of this regardless of marriage or not... it protects one better. You can also change/modify or terminate these.... just as one can do with marriage, but without the horrendous legal fees that can easily wipe you out.

First order of business would be to understand this stuff, and understand what both of your goals are and discuss so that you two agree on things. Unfortunately, this is rarely done, even in marriage.

I do all of the above for my SO, and she understands it.

June 18, 2015

I don't mean to offend anyone here , but

having a celebration /ceremony
Getting a commitment ring

Just seems to me like pretending you're married.
You're either married or your not.

If your not married, why tell people you are?

If a piece of paper means nothing , then why does a ring mean anything. If that's your stance , then you can declare your love and commitment behind closed doors.

A commitment ceremony , seems to me like not really wanting that full commitment of a relationship for whatever reason .

A couple CAN marry by THEIR own rules, and in front of THEIR GOD, you don't have to pretend, if you're really sincere. You don't have to marry by the government's rules (which has NOTHING to do with love.... only obligation and regulation).

Now, with kids, I could argue a marriage under the government's rules for the childs sake, if there's any chance that there could be issues in the future. The government had MUCH greater force to protect them (paid for by your taxes.....).

To each his own. For me, I prefer MY and MY SO other's choice. If it really meant I'd loose her, I'd marry her, but I know she would have a good reason to want that. Right now, it would be financially a very poor move, and I'd rather put the money in our savings.

June 18, 2015

A couple CAN marry by THEIR own rules, and in front of THEIR GOD, you don't have to pretend, if you're really sincere. You don't have to marry by the government's rules (which has NOTHING to do with love.... only obligation and regulation).

Obligation is a key word in this debate. I don't see obligation as bad, but lots of people do. Lots of people fear being obligated, but I think that it's primarily because they aren't clear in themselves or with each other about what they would be obligated to do and not do if married.

June 18, 2015

Have you ever asked yourself WHY you really want to get married?

When I was younger, I was always anti-marriage (and was in a ten year relationship). Once I got into my late twenties, all of our friends started getting married (as I believe you also mentioned that your friends were doing now, as their second marriages).

I started to grow dissatisfied, not because I WANTED to get married, but because I wondered what everyone else was thinking about me... "hm.. he does not want to marry her??" I even started to feel stupid, and that everyone was thinking that he was getting away with something, having a committed relationship with me with all of the benefits and no marriage.

Are you sure that what has not changed in your relationship is the way that you think others may be perceiving it? And, if I really admit from the depths of my soul, I wanted him to WANT to marry me, even though I had no interested in getting married. We all want someone to want us that badly.

No need to answer on here, but maybe some things to think about?

June 18, 2015

A couple CAN marry by THEIR own rules, and in front of THEIR GOD, you don't have to pretend, if you're really sincere. You don't have to marry by the government's rules (which has NOTHING to do with love.... only obligation and regulation).

Now, with kids, I could argue a marriage under the government's rules for the childs sake, if there's any chance that there could be issues in the future. The government had MUCH greater force to protect them (paid for by your taxes.....).

To each his own. For me, I prefer MY and MY SO other's choice. If it really meant I'd loose her, I'd marry her, but I know she would have a good reason to want that. Right now, it would be financially a very poor move, and I'd rather put the money in our savings.

Then in this case you are giving marriage your own definition.

marriage is:

'the legally or formally recognized union of a man and a woman (or, in some jurisdictions, two people of the same sex) as partners in a relationship.'

To each his own, but call it what it is. Be it a life partnership or anything else, but it's NOT marriage.

Bottom line is that a couple are on the same page.

June 18, 2015

Then in this case you are giving marriage your own definition.

marriage is:

'the legally or formally recognized union of a man and a woman (or, in some jurisdictions, two people of the same sex) as partners in a relationship.'

To each his own, but call it what it is. Be it a life partnership or anything else, but it's NOT marriage.

Bottom line is that a couple are on the same page.

There's also several biblical definitions of marriage, some that do not recognize man's law, but god's law. Yes, a life partnership can be marriage without a legal commitment. However, most imply mutual consent and a relationship.

June 20, 2015

I'm not particularly keen on getting married and I don't really have a desire to get married to anyone.

Then again I'm not against it either - leaving out all the 'bad deal for men', which does not really apply in this country and especially not in our relationship. I don't have a problem with getting married anyway. I know that it means something to her and that's enough reason to do it.

But if it would be 'you don't love me because we're not married/engaged after x years ' I'd have a big problem with that.

June 20, 2015

There's also several biblical definitions of marriage, some that do not recognize man's law, but god's law. Yes, a life partnership can be marriage without a legal commitment. However, most imply mutual consent and a relationship.

We're not talking religion here though are we?

Some people have no religion , so it doesn't matter to them what the bible says. Marriage isn't about religion.

I notice when some couples aren't married they go to great lengths to state their relationship is "as good as being married ' or 'is more or less married ' or 'married in all except the paper'.

And what's a piece of paper?.......if that piece of paper is so trivial , and one person wanted marriage , the other would do it. It's not just a bit of paper at all.

When people search family trees , they do it with records of births deaths and marriages. If couples have just cohabited it becomes more than difficult.

Nothing but marriage is actually marriage and there isn't a grey area here.

Simple question on a form :

Are you married /divorced /single /cohabiting

You'd have to answer 'cohabitating '. If that option wasn't there the honest response is single.

The term 'common law wife or husband ' is also widely used. It's not the same.

Again , if it suits the two parties , no problem.