Need guidance on how to move out to separate

[chasen_the_cycle]

Hey folks...I've been posting a few things here and there in this forum for a couple of months, trying to make things work with my wife, and get some thoughts "on paper" for me to fully realize and get some feedback. It's all been great, and I appreciate the many replies I've read.

 

I've reached a point through my own process and some guidance from my IC over the last few months where I am ready to make a move and proceed with a separation. I love my wife, but I honestly don't like her and my heart is not in this anymore...and the marriage is just over one year old, the second for both of us. I have no kids previously, and she has a 13 year old son from her first marriage.

 

A quick rundown of events up to where I am, and then my question to anyone who wouldn't mind giving me a couple of pennies of thought-

 

The year prior to marriage was mostly bliss, but was tainted by a few big fights, and the loss of one of my dogs I shared with my first wife...this created a major dark spot in the relationship to where my soon-to-be-new-wife made accusations of me cheating with my ex when that happened. False, this did not happen.

 

We shouldn't have married due to the many red flags shown during our fights, but did anyway May of '14. Fighting continued on a regular basis, usually anchored to the false event above.

 

September '14, I had an EA/almost PA (no sex) with another woman.

 

November '14, we had a big fight, I called the police to get her to move her vehicle (single car driveway, my Jeep was blocked) after she struck me in the back of the head three times. I just wanted to leave. I got arrested from her version of the story.

 

December '14, I moved out. Everything. Surprised her with a note. I know, bad way to do it, but I was (and still am) terrified of her and her reaction. This lasted two days, and she convinced me to move back in.

 

January '15, I confessed to my behavior in September, actually anticipating she would throw me out. I believe now that I wanted that to happen, but it only seemed to make her more attached, clingy to me, and the hysterical bonding began.

 

Since then, it has been six months of MC and five months of IC for me. She will not go to IC. We are not communicating effectively, even after six months of coaching from the MC, nothing has changed. There is still screaming, name calling, mean tones, and her Jekyll and Hyde personality that scares the living crud out of me.

 

I've had enough and need to take action. So...I've made the decision that we need to separate based on my own sanity, health, and happiness.

 

Current situation is I work from home. Her son is home with me for the summer, but will be gone from time to time with summer camps and YMCA days. If he wasn't with me all day everyday this week, I probably would have already done something, but given the time I've had to think about things since I can't just move out with him here, I wanted to ask for some input.

 

Next week is one of the weeks he will be gone. I see this as a good opportunity to apartment shop and possibly move out. I promised my wife the last time I moved out that I would not surprise her with a note if we didn't work out through counseling. But I also feel like she will do her thing, by persuading and manipulating me in to rethinking everything and then NOT move out if I uphold my promise to tell her that I am doing this. How do I do this???

 

I can't live my life in this crazy household where everyday is uncomfortable (we both feel this way) and not knowing if the next thing to come out of her mouth is something loving, or something mean.

 

Just not sure how I should go about it...and maybe there isn't an answer to my question of how, but putting words down makes it more real for me, and I welcome any feedback, good or bad.

 

Thanks.

Edited June 17, 2015 by chasen_the_cycle

[No Limit]

Time to get your big guy pants and do the final talk. Like a mature adult.

 

Your relationship has been toxic prior to marriage and oh wonder, marriage didn't improve that. But at least you are capable of acknowledging that instead of wasting a decade or more in a bad marriage.

 

You tell her that you want a divorce and that you will move out. Don't be afraid of her; and she cannot manipulate you unless you let her. Your goal is to move out, isn't it? Then stick to it. She may beg, she may cry, she may attempt "hysterical bonding" (honestly, it wasn't hysterical bonding, it was probably more like 'necessary work to ensure he won't leave me for another woman') - but you ignore all of that and stick to your plan.

 

Since you seem so afraid of her, perhaps it would be best to tell her a day before/on the day you move out so you just get to pack your things instead of having to endure craziness until you can get out.

[loveboid]

I dunno. Fear is a gift to me. There's probably a good reason you feel afraid of her--she's nuts!

 

IMO she doesn't deserve an explanation, not even a note. I would just disappear and never look back. Let your lawyer do all the communicating with her from now on.

 

Likely she already knows her behavior is bad and why you're leaving her. I believe she just wants another opportunity to manipulate and steal your life...five minutes at a time if she has to. One manipulation and distraction after another until you look up and five years have passed you by.

[LoveMyCat]

I would wait until you have secured an apartment and have the keys to tell her. Then you are not likely to be pulled back in by any emotions, hysterics, begging, negotiating etc...just quietly go about getting your place to live, say goodbye (or not) and go. And don't give the address, you can communicate by email or text as needed.

[chasen_the_cycle]

Time to get your big guy pants and do the final talk. Like a mature adult.

 

Your relationship has been toxic prior to marriage and oh wonder, marriage didn't improve that. But at least you are capable of acknowledging that instead of wasting a decade or more in a bad marriage.

 

You tell her that you want a divorce and that you will move out. Don't be afraid of her; and she cannot manipulate you unless you let her. Your goal is to move out, isn't it? Then stick to it. She may beg, she may cry, she may attempt "hysterical bonding" (honestly, it wasn't hysterical bonding, it was probably more like 'necessary work to ensure he won't leave me for another woman') - but you ignore all of that and stick to your plan.

 

Since you seem so afraid of her, perhaps it would be best to tell her a day before/on the day you move out so you just get to pack your things instead of having to endure craziness until you can get out.

The begging and crying is what gets me...I hate hurting her even though she is hurting me, my life, my ability to be happy. But it is absolutely toxic and volatile...two words I've used to describe our relationship to her for a long time. If I tell her, I think it will be the day of, not the night before or any sooner. There is too much time, even a few hours would be too much time I think. Big guy pants are on...ready to do this, just have to time it for the best result.

 

I dunno. Fear is a gift to me. There's probably a good reason you feel afraid of her--she's nuts!

 

IMO she doesn't deserve an explanation, not even a note. I would just disappear and never look back. Let your lawyer do all the communicating with her from now on.

 

Likely she already knows her behavior is bad and why you're leaving her. I believe she just wants another opportunity to manipulate and steal your life...five minutes at a time if she has to. One manipulation and distraction after another until you look up and five years have passed you by.

She does know her behavior (actually told me again last night) and how it makes me feel and that she believes that I don't understand it. Five minutes at a time...never thought of it like that before, but that's just about nail on the head. I actually don't like the thought of leaving without a word, but it could be the best course of action considering her irrationality the last time I left...she called me 37 times back to back before I finally answered. I should have blocked her, and will have to do that this time I think.

 

I would wait until you have secured an apartment and have the keys to tell her. Then you are not likely to be pulled back in by any emotions, hysterics, begging, negotiating etc...just quietly go about getting your place to live, say goodbye (or not) and go. And don't give the address, you can communicate by email or text as needed.

Definitely plan to get the apartment and key first, I don't want to give myself the option to listen to her try to pull me back.

 

Thanks for the thoughts...

[GoBlue]

How in the world can you go to MC for six months and nothing change? The time commitment and the cost themselves seems like they would inspire some kind of positive benefit. I do not understand how someone wants to stay together so badly but still refuses to stop negative and relationally damaging practices. We are, of course, only getting one side of the story. I don't know what the right thing for you to do is, but I am baffled by the fact that you could see all of these "Red Flags" before you married her but you proceeded anyway. This is especially mind-boggling since you had already been through one divorce. You said that you "promised her" that you would not surprise her with a note again. Don't you think you should keep your word? Unless there is real physical danger, it seems like it's the least you could do. Have you considered an intensive counseling program? The National Institute of Marriage has had lots of great success with turning marriages just like yours around. If you want more information let me know. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

[chasen_the_cycle]

Understood this is one side of the story, and I'm sure her version would be different, but you are spot on with the no change in six months being a head scratcher. I know I'm not doing everything I should be doing, but she is the EXACT same person she was before we started MC. It's the same thing every week from her..."I don't want to go to counseling tonight". We do, but it's not very productive. I'm to the point that I don't care to save it anymore, so intensive MC would be a waste of time and money for me...thank you so much for the thought and invite for more info though, and I appreciate the prayers.

 

I should have taken notice of the giant flashing stop sign before we took the vows, but I was blinded by her persuasion to make me think it would work.

[No Limit]

The problem is that you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Your wife is very content with things as they are so it's very likely that she just sits in MC to keep you quiet.

 

Alright, seems like you have a plan. Get the apartment, prepare a highspeed move and... well, it really doesn't matter whether you tell her face to face or let a lawyer handle it. You being out of the house is a message she can't miss.

[chasen_the_cycle]

You being out of the house is a message she can't miss.

 

That's certainly true...I am planning to look around and secure a place next week, then find the right time to do it.

 

Thanks again folks.

[beautifulinside2]

My opinion is at the next counseling session in front of a mediator tell the counselor and your wife how you are feeling. To every action there is a reaction, if you are not doing everything you should be doing then there are something's that can be done to salvage your marriage. Marriage is not always 50/50 sometimes it 90/10 and you did contribute to her insecurities.

[chasen_the_cycle]

My opinion is at the next counseling session in front of a mediator tell the counselor and your wife how you are feeling. To every action there is a reaction, if you are not doing everything you should be doing then there are something's that can be done to salvage your marriage. Marriage is not always 50/50 sometimes it 90/10 and you did contribute to her insecurities.

 

I really want to bring this up in counseling, but I think she'll go ballistic...I think it's a great idea though. Almost did last session.

 

I absolutely did contribute to her insecurities, no denying that...but I can't keep living under the constant stress and anxiety we cause each other.

[RightThere]

You just need to pack up your stuff and GET OUT!!!!

 

If she's been physically abusive, had you arrested, then things can only get worse.

 

My guess is there is no way this is going to end well/peacefully. The first opportunity you've got, grab your essentials and get out. Once you are out, then you can start to move on and detach. While you are in the house trying to reason with a crazy person you are afraid of, you'll never get anywhere.

[RightThere]

I really want to bring this up in counseling, but I think she'll go ballistic...I think it's a great idea though. Almost did last session.

 

I absolutely did contribute to her insecurities, no denying that...but I can't keep living under the constant stress and anxiety we cause each other.

 

Counselling is 1 hour of safe time and discussion, but as soon as it's over she'll become the person you are afraid of and make things worse based on what you brought up in counselling.

 

You are not dealing with an adult here, so don't allow your actions to follow that of an adult relationship.

 

Pack up, get out, and deal with all the little stuff later.

[chasen_the_cycle]

You just need to pack up your stuff and GET OUT!!!!

 

If she's been physically abusive, had you arrested, then things can only get worse.

 

My guess is there is no way this is going to end well/peacefully. The first opportunity you've got, grab your essentials and get out. Once you are out, then you can start to move on and detach. While you are in the house trying to reason with a crazy person you are afraid of, you'll never get anywhere.

My family keeps telling me the same thing...it will only get worse. I'm working on finding the first opportunity...apartment hunting starts Monday.

 

Counselling is 1 hour of safe time and discussion, but as soon as it's over she'll become the person you are afraid of and make things worse based on what you brought up in counselling.

 

You are not dealing with an adult here, so don't allow your actions to follow that of an adult relationship.

 

Pack up, get out, and deal with all the little stuff later.

Which is exactly why I haven't ever said anything...she has already shown me that she can't show her true emotion in the session (though I think she would if I mentioned separating during one). As soon as we get in the car, I get talked to about what I said if she didn't like it. That would normally be fine as it should generate normal discussion, but it's always "I can't believe you said that in there, I am so pissed at you right now." Heard that a million times over the last year or so.

 

Funny...she says I am not acting like an adult, even calls me a child many times when she is throwing a temper tantrum. Truly odd.

[chasen_the_cycle]

Quick update...I've found an apartment. After seeing several "junk" places, I decided to step up the budget a bit and found a brand new complex that will be ready to move in to mid-August.

 

So...now I have a bit of a waiting game to play. It's quite hard knowing what I am going to do to her. We had a REALLY good Saturday this past weekend, but then back to SNAFU on Sunday. Same cycle all the time...

 

The next month and a half is going to be full of ups and downs, but I have strong support from family and friends that know my situation to help me through and stay on plan to put an end to this crazy life I've been living.

 

Thanks for the online support from all of you as well...it all helps!

[chasen_the_cycle]

Wow.

 

I read through my own post just shaking my head wondering what the hell I am STILL doing here.

 

I am 99.9% CERTAIN I have a borderline personality wife, and the techniques that she uses on me to "see the positive" are absolutely amazing to me. Yet I am still walking on eggshells every day, I fear her coming home from work not knowing what the hell she will say to me, and the instant anger...unbelievable to witness.

 

The last post I made in this thread was in June...and I made a mistake during a fight in early July that I truly regret. I told her about the apartment before signing the lease or getting keys. That led to a massive talk about things, and she pulled out all the stops, getting me to agree to let go of the apartment altogether (I did have a hold on the apartment, but hadn't signed the lease yet due to the state not allowing that until one month before they opened the building). August was wonderful...things were honestly really really good, and we had a few small arguments that I felt were normal in a marriage. Argue, discuss, solve, move on.

 

That lasted until Labor Day weekend when she pushed and pushed one morning and we went at it like old times. Yelling, SCREAMING...no physical contact, but I went out to the garage and threw my coffee mug at the wall in pure anger and frustration and fell to my knees sobbing, uncontrollably. I knew then that this is never going to change. The cycle that we go through is unstoppable and it was time to put the plan in place again.

 

Fast forward to today...after a vacation that was full of stress and fights...and I am back in place at the same apartment complex, waiting for the next new building to open mid-November. I sign the actual lease next week, binding and obligating myself to it. I have a place to go if I need to leave early, but the thing to do now is just do my best to put on a good face and wait for departure day. This will be hard...because I know she is going to do what she does and pick apart everything I do...but I am 100% out at this point.

 

I've already met with my attorney to have the papers drawn up, signed them, and all I need to do to trigger the action is pay for the filing fee at the appropriate time, which will be timed after I leave because she is savvy to the public records system where we live.

 

This is going to devastate her, disappoint many others, and give relief to some (my family and close friends), but I am just a shell of who I used to be, broken by her borderline, and I MUST find myself again.

 

Better times are ahead...they have to be.

[Downtown]

Chasen, thanks for returning to give us an update. I was wondering how you, the wife, and your 13-year-old step son are doing.

 

I am 99.9% CERTAIN I have a borderline personality wife.

As we discussed last March, only a professional can diagnose her, i.e., determine whether she has full-blown BPD. This is not to say, however, that you cannot spot strong occurrences of the warning signs. On the contrary, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not see the temper tantrums, irrational jealousy, physical abuse, verbal abuse, lack of impulse control, always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde -- i.e., the behaviors you've been describing since March.

 

She pulled out all the stops, getting me to agree to let go of the apartment altogether.

No, she did not "get you" to agree to anything. You chose to do it. Your W has no control over you that you don't willing give to her. That enabling behavior -- wherein you allow her to behave badly and then protect her from suffering the logical consequences of those bad choices -- is your contribution to the toxicity in your marriage.

 

August was wonderful.... That lasted until Labor Day weekend when she pushed and pushed one morning and we went at it like old times. Yelling, SCREAMING.

This is not surprising if she has strong BPD traits. BPDers tend to behave the very WORST immediately following the very BEST of times, e.g., right after a great weekend or in the middle of a wonderful vacation. Because they can tolerate intimacy and closeness for only a limited time, they will create arguments -- over absolutely nothing -- to push you away so as to get more breathing space.

 

I sign the actual lease next week.... I am 100% out at this point.

Well, I certainly hope so. You deserve to have a happy life, to be able to go home and know what's on the other side of the front door when you open it, to be yourself again, and to replace your parent/child relationship with a true husband/wife relationship. I therefore encourage you to stay the course next week so you can sign the lease.

[loveboid]

She's very good at manipulation which is why you need to go No Contact. Any avenue of communication--text, phone, letter--is an opportunity in her mind to con you.

 

She's good at guilt tripping you which is probably why you told her about the apartment. This is why you should just never, ever let her contact you again. Never open the door to her. Never answer her texts. Never answer her calls.

 

Your mediator can talk to you both at the same time or in separate rooms if you request it. Never, ever be alone with her.

 

She is too dangerous.

 

P.S. If she is BPD then she is sincerely wanting your attention which makes it extra hard to leave her. According to my recent research apparently BPD's aren't purposefully manipulative per se...they are just unhealthily desperate.

 

P.P.S. And by "No Contact" I mean No contact forever.

Edited October 21, 2015 by loveboid

[chasen_the_cycle]

Thanks for the replies...Downtown, you are absolutely right, I am contributing to the toxicity in my own way. I need to recognize that when it happens, but it's hard to see it. And I shouldn't say I know she is BPD, but as you said, I can see the traits. Strongly.

 

loveboid...I hear you loud and clear...and I intend to do just that. Intentions are usually clouded in my head by my caring nature, and I just hope that I can overcome that intense desire to show I care about her well being and STAY NO CONTACT.

 

Mornings around our house are becoming almost amusing...her lack of an ability to get out of bed on time always creates emergency situations for her son and I. We get yelled at for her being late, well, actually we get yelled at for pretty much anything as she can't control her temper when she is running late and stressed, but I digress. I say "amusing" in a VERY sarcastic way. Ugh.

[Downtown]

I shouldn't say I know she is BPD, but as you said, I can see the traits. Strongly.

Yes, Chasen, without being able to diagnose, you should be able to see any PD traits (i.e., symptoms) that are occurring strongly in a woman you've lived with for more than a year. These traits are basic human behaviors we all know very well because we all exhibit them to varying degrees at various stages of our lives.

 

Hence, before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. Likewise, you could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur.

[chasen_the_cycle]

Well, I am at least one step ahead of where I was back in July. I signed the lease today, and have a move in date of 11/15. I was afraid I would not go through with it, but when it came down to going through the lease and signing it, I did it without hesitation. That is enough to tell me I am ready for this this time. She is giving me feedback, unknowingly, on a daily basis that this is the right thing to do for me, my happiness, and my health.

 

Plans are falling in to place for a move out date of 11/13...I have a place to stay for a couple of nights, and the tools needed (truck, trailer, etc) are being offered.

[Downtown]

Chasen, that's great news! Am glad to hear that you are holding firm on your decision. I believe you're going to be very surprised, a short while after you move in mid-November, how quickly the "Old Chasen" returns and you start feeling like your old self again.

[chasen_the_cycle]

Downtown...you have no idea how good that sounds to me. I haven't been myself for over three years now, and it's time to turn the person I am today back in to what I used to be. I am going to be with family (without her) this weekend, and I am SO looking forward to it!

[chasen_the_cycle]

It is taking every part of my being to NOT say something to her about leaving or telling her I want a divorce. We got in to a huge fight this morning over cutting tomatoes of all things...it's not worth going in to the details, but needless to say, it was an absolutely unnecessary fight.

 

I would actually leave now, but complicating matters this week is my step-son being suspended from school for a couple of days for doing something stupid, and he is now home with me today and tomorrow. If he wasn't here, I strongly feel I would be packing things up today...so frustrating, but it's almost over...

[Downtown]

Yes, Chasen, it's almost over (i.e., your living together). And, while your SS is out of school for a few days, you have a rare opportunity to spend some quality time with him. Sounds like you made a wise choice.