The reason Chivalry is dead..

[ascendotum]

What many people refer to as chivalry is not so common any longer because it no longer brings about the desired effect. Men are going to do whatever they can to get with women. Being a chivalrous gentleman is not going to get a guy any dates, that's why you never see that given out as advice to any struggling guys on here, ever. So, guys do what works. Improve our looks, pick up some fun hobbies for women to enjoy with us, make more money, and do everything in our power to avoid being called clingy.

That's right. It really doesn't result in higher attraction for most women imo. Women do love those gentlemanly gestures but not in terms of attraction but more cheery on top for a guy they have the hots for....especially if he has a contrasting edgy/rugged persona (which is the bigger attraction factor). Many will appreciate it from their long term bf or husband or when they are older but not so much when they are single & in prime sexy years. If I look round at the guys I know who do well with women apart from one guy who has a bit of a debonair ladies man air about him, most are not a 'gentleman who knows how to treat a lady' types (unless some have a 2nd persona when they go on a date as opposed to just picking up). Many far from it. Its bit of a bygone era thing for me. I do basic good manners & romance but not chivalry.

[carhill]

Example from real life - towing between tracks in the middle of the night and run across woman on side of highway with hood up and apparent flat tire. Being a racer with a trailer full of tools and a jack, I stop to see if she needs help or at least if she wants me to get to a phone to call someone (long before cell phones). When I've been broke down on the side of the road over the decades, zippo, except one time when I coincidentally had a blowout on the highway right in front of a customers shop and they saw me careening off into the drainage and sent one of their service trucks over with a mechanic to help me replace the tire and get the truck out of the ditch. That's a man's thing. We're chivalrous, helping strangers in need and damsels in distress, sometimes.

 

Ha, then there's the lady who showed up at my door at midnight disheveled and dirty after having a fight with her BF and him dumping her out in the sticks. She walked about a mile to my place and was visibly upset. I offered to call someone for her and, getting no response, drove her, at 1am, back into town. That was back in my virgin days when women wouldn't touch me with a ten foot pole. I laughed at the absurdity of it all but learned who the guys with girlfriends were.

[toscaroscura]

 

Ha, then there's the lady who showed up at my door at midnight disheveled and dirty after having a fight with her BF and him dumping her out in the sticks. She walked about a mile to my place and was visibly upset. I offered to call someone for her and, getting no response, drove her, at 1am, back into town. That was back in my virgin days when women wouldn't touch me with a ten foot pole. I laughed at the absurdity of it all but learned who the guys with girlfriends were.

 

I really don't like this school of thought. You didn't know anything about her history or her relationship. It's not as simple as "abusive guys are the ones with girlfriends". It leads down a dark road; one that says women somehow inherently love abuse and if a man wants a girlfriend, he should consider abusing women.

 

Abusive people are good at getting people to question themselves and it's a slow, insidious process. Abusers don't start out abusive, and they aren't abusive 24/7.

 

Also, i really hope you weren't implying that she should have been "nicer" to you that night. Her mind was probably in a different place and she wasn't thinking about properly "rewarding" a nice guy for his chivalry.

[serial muse]

 

For anybody man who thinks women aren't chivalrous - go out and about and actually watch people. Watch to see who helps a woman who's struggling with a pushchair. Or who helps when a person has dropped something. Or who waves a car to pull out in front of them. I see women and men performing small acts of chivalry all the time.

 

I ride the bus to and from work daily, and I noticed, both when I was very pregnant and also for the first year when I carried baby around in a sling, that the first people to jump up from their seats to offer them to me were almost invariably young women. That's not to say that men or older women never offered me their seats - they did. But young women practically sprang from their seats the second they saw me board (have to admit that...young men were also by far the least likely to stand up). I found that so interesting.

 

Anyway, yes, women can be quite chivalrous. I encountered plenty of chivalry from both genders. It was very nice.

[carhill]

I really don't like this school of thought. You didn't know anything about her history or her relationship. It's not as simple as "abusive guys are the ones with girlfriends". It leads down a dark road; one that says women somehow inherently love abuse and if a man wants a girlfriend, he should consider abusing women.

 

Abusive people are good at getting people to question themselves and it's a slow, insidious process. Abusers don't start out abusive, and they aren't abusive 24/7.

 

Also, i really hope you weren't implying that she should have been "nicer" to you that night. Her mind was probably in a different place and she wasn't thinking about properly "rewarding" a nice guy for his chivalry.

All I knew was the young lady told me about the interaction, I observed her condition and acted in a chivalrous manner. You can apply any observation you wish. I did what I thought was the right thing at the time but did note the dynamics of it. That's one anecdote of hundreds I could provide from decades of life experience, but won't. Why? Because it just fuels your debate and that's all you do, rather than having a constructive and collaborative conversation and understanding of men's points of view.

 

Anyway, long in the past and provided as an example of the topic. Your reply, not so much. Next.

[toscaroscura]

All I knew was the young lady told me about the interaction, I observed her condition and acted in a chivalrous manner. You can apply any observation you wish. I did what I thought was the right thing at the time but did note the dynamics of it. That's one anecdote of hundreds I could provide from decades of life experience, but won't. Why? Because it just fuels your debate and that's all you do, rather than having a constructive and collaborative conversation and understanding of men's points of view.

 

Anyway, long in the past and provided as an example of the topic. Your reply, not so much. Next.

 

I don't understand why you're so hostile to me?

 

I can provide lots of anecdote of non-abusive men in relationships as well. It's just the age-old "jerks get the girl" thing that has been rehashed over again on countless sites.

 

Abusive situations aren't so simple.

 

We can all agree that no one likes "chivalry" that is only a**-kissing, but that doesn't mean "jerks get the girl". Unless "jerk" means "human with a backbone and his own personality".

 

I just don't like it when guys take it so far as to say abusers have more "luck with women", and then surmise that maybe abusing women is the way to go.

[carhill]

Stop putting words into my mouth and inferring abhorrent behavior where there is none!

 

You are the hostile one, not I. I simply helped out a young lady in distress, expected nothing from it and went on with life. I also noted the realities, piled upon many other similar incidents.

[loveweary11]

 

We can all agree that no one likes "chivalry" that is only a**-kissing, but that doesn't mean "jerks get the girl". Unless "jerk" means "human with a backbone and his own personality".

 

 

A small point, but that's regional. New England chicks, especially Boston and north, don't like more old fashioned behavior like that. Generally, they are less feminine and men are more feminine in behavior there.

 

In most other parts of the country, people do enjoy chivalrous behavior and more traditional roles for the sexes.

 

New England is a pretty weird place from a relations between men and women perspective. Not at all representative of the USA as a whole.

 

Source? Was born and spent half my life there.

[toscaroscura]

A small point, but that's regional. New England chicks, especially Boston and north, don't like more old fashioned behavior like that. Generally, they are less feminine and men are more feminine in behavior there.

 

In most other parts of the country, people do enjoy chivalrous behavior and more traditional roles for the sexes.

 

New England is a pretty weird place from a relations between men and women perspective. Not at all representative of the USA as a whole.

 

Source? Was born and spent half my life there.

 

This has nothing to do with how I perceive chivalry. I went into that in an earlier post: I think a lot of these guys aren't doing actual chivalry, they are doing the weird, socially uncalibrated kissing butt that socially awkward people tend to do. I know, I have run in many nerd circle and seen it.

 

I don't think you guys are really getting the gist of my issue with carhill's comment about the abused woman.

Edited June 24, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Woggle]

Under no circumstances would I ever encourage men to abuse women. If a woman showed me she was incapable of having a healthy relationship without drama and couldn't handle being treated well then I will move on. I have no time for that kind of crap and I would never be an abuser.

 

That being said I must admit there have been moments where I scratched my head at how abusive scum never seem to struggle with getting women interested in them. I find their behavior appalling but I call it like I see it and it certainly doesn't hurt their dating prospects.

[toscaroscura]

Under no circumstances would I ever encourage men to abuse women. If a woman showed me she was incapable of having a healthy relationship without drama and couldn't handle being treated well then I will move on. I have no time for that kind of crap and I would never be an abuser.

 

That being said I must admit there have been moments where I scratched my head at how abusive scum never seem to struggle with getting women interested in them. I find their behavior appalling but I call it like I see it and it certainly doesn't hurt their dating prospects.

 

Believe me, I hear you. I have certainly wondered about the men catering to their crazy train wreck GFs! On the female end, it always seems like the most spoiled, obnoxious women never lack for boyfriends!

 

But what I have come to learn is that crappy relationships aren't as simple as "person treats me like sh*t, gee I want more of that!" It's a huge web of complicated history and emotions and hot/cold feelings that keep people almost addicted. And you're right, it's profoundly unhealthy and should be avoided.

Edited June 24, 2015 by toscaroscura

[Woggle]

Just do what I do and find a woman who appreciates it. Men should have been a pretty strict vetting process before they even think about being serious with a woman and responding in a positive manner to being treated well should be in the top five requirements. If a woman wants some neanderthal with no manners why do you want her anyway?

[toscaroscura]

I believe what Carhill is trying to say is similar to what I said...chivalry does not work. No decent guys are going around saying that men should be abusive to women, but we are also not blind to the fact that, as displayed in Carhill's anecdote, those guys out there being really nice to women, and displaying that chivalrous behavior, are not exactly getting a lot of dates. When guys start seeing, nice, attractive, all around good women dating guys who are chivalrous, instead of what we usually see them with, men will start to change.

 

I do understand that feeling. Like I said to Woggle, I've experienced it myself.

 

But there's more going on with guys (or girls too) who don't get dates. Remember in my thread, when you told me the problem with "typical struggling dudes" when I related the story about my work crush? It isn't only that they are too nice or chivalrous. They have other reasons, and even self-defeating behaviors, responsible for it, as you know.

 

Bolded above: the women might seem nice, good, attractive and they probably are good people, but a struggling dude is only seeing the outside. He might idealize her as well, so he's not seeing that she is probably pretty messed up herself. It's so easy to look in from the outside and think, what is that beautiful angel doing with that monster, but in reality these are two very flawed people in a toxic dynamic.

[Woggle]

Usually these women are just as bad as the guys. Just because a woman or man for that matter seems outwardly pleasant does not make them a good person. Like attracts like.

[Krieger]

Feminism isn't the idea that women don't need men - it is the idea that women are equal to men - socially, economically and politically.

 

Chivalry was not killed by feminism it was killed by the men who are afraid of women being their equal.

 

 

Well there is way too much hypocrisy with feminism and I am going to leave it at that.

 

There is too many woman that want all the good things about being a man but just do not want to take responsibility for there actions.

 

I my family one of my cousins has 3 kids by 3 dirrfenr men on governemrnt assiatnce and does not not work but runs around and tells people how much of a Independent woman she is . I know too many woman like that sorry .

[Krieger]

I would love to open my car door for a woman on a date or pull her chair out if we are going out to dinner but too many woman hate that now days .

[toscaroscura]

I would love to open my car door for a woman on a date or pull her chair out if we are going out to dinner but too many woman hate that now days .

 

The most recent guy I dated did that! I loved it.

[Krieger]

The most recent guy I dated did that! I loved it.

 

 

sadly were I am from the PNW white woman will give you the whole I can do it myself attitude a lot of the times.

[toscaroscura]

sadly were I am from the PNW white woman will give you the whole I can do it myself attitude a lot of the times.

 

PNW? :confused:

 

I can't even imagine getting angry about someone doing something nice for me. Chivalry or feminism be damned, I take nice gestures in good faith and I appreciate them. I try to pay kind deeds forward!

[losangelena]

PNW? :confused:

 

Pacific North West

[Taramere]

There are people out there doing nice things for others all the time, without an expectation of reward. If helping is your temperament, you will tend to help for no reason other than that you're being true to your temperament. A guy who steps forward to help a woman put a heavy case on the upper shelf in a railway carriage might be called a gentleman or chivalrous. What do we call women who provide help to somebody who seems to be in difficulties? I've met plenty of women who do. Do we call them "ladies" or "chivalrous"? I usually just think of them as being kind, helpful or friendly.

 

This really struck me a while back when a girl walking along our main street on a windy day dropped some papers. Immediately a squad of random women were running around picking up the papers for her. I didn't see any men stop to help. I doubt they were thinking "all women these days are feminists. That or they like to date sociopaths. I'm not stopping to help. That'll teach them!" Well, they may have been - you never know. Seems unlikely though. I assumed they saw other people running around to help and thought "it's covered". Of course it could be that they would feel in some way demeaned by helping, who knows?

 

To me it was a case of nearby women helping instinctively. Not because it's chivalrous or ladylike or any of that...but because if somebody needs help and you're in a position to help, you give that help. It's instinctive. It usually doesn't involve much effort - and I think that reasonably sociably minded people kind of enjoy these little social interactions that have some sort of helping ingredient at the core of them.

 

Be yourselves, gentlemen (and non-gentlemen). If you're not an instinctively helpful, protective or nurturing type, don't pretend you are for the sake of getting female admirers. It probably won't work. If you end up buying into your own advertising ("I'm such a nice guy") you'll eventually be riddled with resentment and the passive aggression will be evident to everybody.

 

If you are a natural, instinctive helper/protector etc - then own it. Admit to yourself "I'm this way because I enjoy it. It's in my nature to help, and we're at our happiest when we're able to act in harmony with our essential natures. That's the reward."

 

If you're constantly on the look out for other rewards, you're probably not acting in accordance with your natural temperament when you help other people. Just own it. Stop being chivalrous - but stop because you recognise that you're not a chivalrous person by nature....rather than blaming it on the rest of society. We all like a gripe now and again, but somebody who's perpetually complaining about doing things for others, and not receiving any gratitude or appreciation, is just going to be pretty miserable and negative to be around. I think it would be preferable to spend time in the company of fairly selfish but cheerful people. At least you know that they're in your company because they genuinely enjoy it. Which is the best compliment...and infinitely preferable to somebody being in your company because they think you need their help and they're oh such a nice person.

 

Those unchivalrous guys getting a slating on here...well, if they go out of their way to be unchivalrous to prove a point about feminism or whatever else, then that's a sort of political slant which brings an unpleasant vibe to flirtation between men and women. But if they're just naturally a bit selfish and aren't interested in putting on a fake front....well, for somebody who is of a naturally helpful disposition that could be quite refreshing to be around. An opportunity for them to cut loose and learn to have a bit of selfish, childish fun. Assuming the somewhat selfish disposition isn't combined with abusive tendencies.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Taramere

[Taramere]

I believe what Carhill is trying to say is similar to what I said...chivalry does not work. No decent guys are going around saying that men should be abusive to women, but we are also not blind to the fact that, as displayed in Carhill's anecdote, those guys out there being really nice to women, and displaying that chivalrous behavior, are not exactly getting a lot of dates. When guys start seeing, nice, attractive, all around good women dating guys who are chivalrous, instead of what we usually see them with, men will start to change.

 

I think the anecdote was what tosca was reacting to.

 

Ha, then there's the lady who showed up at my door at midnight disheveled and dirty after having a fight with her BF and him dumping her out in the sticks. She walked about a mile to my place and was visibly upset. I offered to call someone for her and, getting no response, drove her, at 1am, back into town. That was back in my virgin days when women wouldn't touch me with a ten foot pole. I laughed at the absurdity of it all but learned who the guys with girlfriends were.

 

I don't obviously know what the details of the fight between that woman and her boyfriend was, who started it etc etc...but details like "disheveled annd dirty" suggest that it was a physical fight - and dumping somebody in the middle of nowhere certainly sounds like an abusive and dangerous way to treat anybody. Human or animal.

 

So to me, it's very fair for tosca to react to that anecdote in the way that she did. To perceive that "who the guys with girlfriends were" refers to the particular guy in that anecdote - who, from the details, certainly sounds downright abusive.

 

There's a big grey area between chivalrous and downright abusive. I would not tolerate abusive behaviour from a man - but behaviour that's not particularly chivalrous isn't something I'm going to get upset about. So long as that's just who he is, rather than it being a case of him being out to prove some childish political point by deliberately being non chivalrous. Similarly, a man who is chivalrous by nature is a pleasure to be around if his chivalrous behaviour seems natural and unaffected.

 

I think it's perfectly possible for a person to be altruistic, without expectation of anything particular in return, in a happy, positive way - simply because they're behaving in a way that's in harmony with their basic temperament. Which is, I think, a major ingredient in happiness. Similarly, I think that people who are more selfish by nature aren't necessarily toxic or unpleasant to be around. Often they can bring fun and provide a good balance so long as they can respect (rather than exploit or demonstrate contempt for) the temperaments of their more thoughtful friends.

 

Ostentatious gestures of chivalry don't necessarily preclude a person from having abusive tendencies (stories of serial killers demonstrate that they often used ostentatiously chivalrous gestures to suck in their victims). Lack of chivalrous gestures, likewise, doesn't mean a person is abusive. But once a conversation about chivalry veers towards discussion about situations where a man behaves downright abusively, has a girlfriend - and that particular relationship is put forward as evidence of women generally devaluing nice guys/chivalry and gravitating towards abusive men, I think that's treading on dangerous territory.

 

There are many, many women out there who are in healthy, loving relationshps with men who may or may not engage in chivalrous gestures - but who love their partner all the same. We just don't hear so much about them, because when people are in healthy and functional relationships they often don't feel much need to talk about their relationships with others. So the focus tends to be on the dysfunctional stuff that is going on. On drama. It's dodgy to assume that focus means women generally despise chivalrous men or gravitate towards relationships with abusive men.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Taramere

[Maleficent]

Well there is way too much hypocrisy with feminism and I am going to leave it at that.

 

There is too many woman that want all the good things about being a man but just do not want to take responsibility for there actions.

 

I my family one of my cousins has 3 kids by 3 dirrfenr men on governemrnt assiatnce and does not not work but runs around and tells people how much of a Independent woman she is . I know too many woman like that sorry .

 

Please explain how in hell has feminism encouraged women to have multiple children with multiple different fathers?

I'm curious...

[StanMusial]

Please explain how in hell has feminism encouraged women to have multiple children with multiple different fathers?

I'm curious...

I get what he is saying. The lady is going around saying how "Independent" she is whilst basically relying on general society to pay her bills. So where did she get the idea she was such an "independent" woman?

[jen1447]

I'm not quite sure why anyone would think chivalry is supposed to make a woman hot for a guy. It's not innately sexual, it's simple decency.

 

Anyhow I've never met a kind gesture with anything but appreciation, and I've never given one that wasn't appreciated either. I've certainly never been criticized or hated on for one. Not sure where it is that that's supposed to happen but I've never been there. (btw I hope we're not confusing a lack of a woman falling all over herself in effusive appreciation with disdain. That would certainly muddy the waters of the discussion.)

 

That being said I must admit there have been moments where I scratched my head at how abusive scum never seem to struggle with getting women interested in them. I find their behavior appalling but I call it like I see it and it certainly doesn't hurt their dating prospects.

I'm pretty sure it's only in openly dysfunctional people that abuse itself is a valued trait. In most cases it wouldn't be abuse that abusers peddle successfully, it's whatever other charms they're able to sell that cover it up or disguise it. That can include borderline behaviors like 'edginess' or "he's a take-no-sh*t kind of guy and I like that," but really there are very few women who see an obvious scumbag and at first sight say sign me up for some of that.