serial muse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 There are people out there doing nice things for others all the time, without an expectation of reward. If helping is your temperament, you will tend to help for no reason other than that you're being true to your temperament. A guy who steps forward to help a woman put a heavy case on the upper shelf in a railway carriage might be called a gentleman or chivalrous. What do we call women who provide help to somebody who seems to be in difficulties? I've met plenty of women who do. Do we call them "ladies" or "chivalrous"? I usually just think of them as being kind, helpful or friendly. This really struck me a while back when a girl walking along our main street on a windy day dropped some papers. Immediately a squad of random women were running around picking up the papers for her. I didn't see any men stop to help. I doubt they were thinking "all women these days are feminists. That or they like to date sociopaths. I'm not stopping to help. That'll teach them!" Well, they may have been - you never know. Seems unlikely though. I assumed they saw other people running around to help and thought "it's covered". Of course it could be that they would feel in some way demeaned by helping, who knows? To me it was a case of nearby women helping instinctively. Not because it's chivalrous or ladylike or any of that...but because if somebody needs help and you're in a position to help, you give that help. It's instinctive. It usually doesn't involve much effort - and I think that reasonably sociably minded people kind of enjoy these little social interactions that have some sort of helping ingredient at the core of them. Be yourselves, gentlemen (and non-gentlemen). If you're not an instinctively helpful, protective or nurturing type, don't pretend you are for the sake of getting female admirers. It probably won't work. If you end up buying into your own advertising ("I'm such a nice guy") you'll eventually be riddled with resentment and the passive aggression will be evident to everybody. If you are a natural, instinctive helper/protector etc - then own it. Admit to yourself "I'm this way because I enjoy it. It's in my nature to help, and we're at our happiest when we're able to act in harmony with our essential natures. That's the reward." If you're constantly on the look out for other rewards, you're probably not acting in accordance with your natural temperament when you help other people. Just own it. Stop being chivalrous - but stop because you recognise that you're not a chivalrous person by nature....rather than blaming it on the rest of society. We all like a gripe now and again, but somebody who's perpetually complaining about doing things for others, and not receiving any gratitude or appreciation, is just going to be pretty miserable and negative to be around. I think it would be preferable to spend time in the company of fairly selfish but cheerful people. At least you know that they're in your company because they genuinely enjoy it. Which is the best compliment...and infinitely preferable to somebody being in your company because they think you need their help and they're oh such a nice person. Those unchivalrous guys getting a slating on here...well, if they go out of their way to be unchivalrous to prove a point about feminism or whatever else, then that's a sort of political slant which brings an unpleasant vibe to flirtation between men and women. But if they're just naturally a bit selfish and aren't interested in putting on a fake front....well, for somebody who is of a naturally helpful disposition that could be quite refreshing to be around. An opportunity for them to cut loose and learn to have a bit of selfish, childish fun. Assuming the somewhat selfish disposition isn't combined with abusive tendencies. I would like this entire post 100 times if I could. Completely agree - IMO, chivalry isn't about what "works" to "win" someone's affection, but is about an instinct to aid someone in need or just to facilitate life for a moment for another human being, without expectation of reward or judgment of the person in need. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I get what he is saying. The lady is going around saying how "Independent" she is whilst basically relying on general society to pay her bills. So where did she get the idea she was such an "independent" woman? I'd bet a million billion dollars she also says she's not a feminist. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 chivalry does not work And this statement is illuminating. See, to me, true chivalry isn't a "strategy" that "works." It is a mindset and lifestyle. This statement is like those guys who call themselves "nice guys" but they are really just "nice with an agenda, and when the agenda doesn't 'WORK' (aka get them sex) they aren't so nice anymore." 6 Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Well there is way too much hypocrisy with feminism and I am going to leave it at that. There is too many woman that want all the good things about being a man but just do not want to take responsibility for there actions. I my family one of my cousins has 3 kids by 3 dirrfenr men on governemrnt assiatnce and does not not work but runs around and tells people how much of a Independent woman she is . I know too many woman like that sorry . If the fathers are not contributing to the child's upkeep (financially or otherwise), then they are as irresponsible and as reliant on society to fix their ****-ups as she is. It takes two people to make a child, you know. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Maleficent Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I get what he is saying. The lady is going around saying how "Independent" she is whilst basically relying on general society to pay her bills. So where did she get the idea she was such an "independent" woman? No where have I heard of feminist that encouraged women to have tons of babies with tons of different fathers because independaaaaance! If anything, women who do are in this situation are not independent at all and choose to rely on the financial support from the kids' fathers/society. that' snot independence at all. I'm kind of sick of people blaming feminism for everything women do that they don't like. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
hotpotato Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 No where have I heard of feminist that encouraged women to have tons of babies with tons of different fathers because independaaaaance! If anything, women who do are in this situation are not independent at all and choose to rely on the financial support from the kids' fathers/society. that' snot independence at all. I'm kind of sick of people blaming feminism for everything women do that they don't like. Exactly! Where are all these feminists encouraging women to pop em out? Seriously, were any guys here not raised by single moms? Its not a picnic, even with the supposed cushiness of child support and govt programs... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
trippi1432 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Personally, I won't even date or take a man seriously if he is not a gentleman. I spent waaayyy too long in a 15 year relationship with an a**clown who let the door slam in my face while carrying our son, a diaper bag and pocketbook. Was it a bad upbringing to be that disrespectful to your wife and mother of your only child? No, he was just an a**hole. Had absolutely nothing to do with feminism or misogynistic tendencies, his own brothers were more respectful, so it was just him being a jerk. For every stranger that held a door for me, for every man who ushered me to go thru the door before them, opened a car door for me, treated me as though I meant something, emptied my heart of any feelings for the jerk at home. We could debate all day that women are responsible for killing chivalry, that's not always the case. Sometimes it's just narcissism on behalf of man's ego that he is #1 and could never truly care for anyone other than himself. My ex even stated that this is just who he is and he could care less about being a "gentleman". He did start opening the car door when we were getting divorced, I just laughed in his face and told him it was too late to make amends now. Every man that I have dated or had a LTR with since my ex, have been more respectful. I consider it a requirement to be treated well and like a lady, even though I can do a lot of things myself including the financial aspects. I do feel for the younger generation today however. The message of feminism has been taken to another level of "battle of the sexes". It really paints both men and women as ugly and deplorable IMO. These attitudes of disrespect for each other, getting pissed for a man pulling out a chair or opening a door (hatefulness), or men taking the concept to a totally different level (spitefulness). I don't see how this younger generation will ever learn to live with each other and find happiness, best that they find happiness with themselves since they seem to not "need" each other at all. Rant over. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Revolver Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Because it doesn't work anymore. This is like asking why the run and shoot offense isn't used in the modern NFL. Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Seriously, you guys don't see a problem with the "Chivalry is dead because it doesn't 'work' anymore" concept? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Krieger Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Seriously, you guys don't see a problem with the "Chivalry is dead because it doesn't 'work' anymore" concept? Woman want to be equal they can do it themselves now days. I am am chivalry with woman i date or sleep with other than that woman are on there own. Link to post Share on other sites
jen1447 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Seriously, you guys don't see a problem with the "Chivalry is dead because it doesn't 'work' anymore" concept? I suspect a tl;dr moment, since autumn addressed that just a few posts up. Woman want to be equal they can do it themselves now days. I am am chivalry with woman i date or sleep with other than that woman are on there own. Seriously, you won't hold a door for somebody? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Woman want to be equal they can do it themselves now days. I am am chivalry with woman i date or sleep with other than that woman are on there own. My point is that doing something with an expectation of reward is not chivalry in the first place. People keep making this point. I'm wondering whether it's making any headway? 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Krieger Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Why Chivalry Is Dead, From A Man’s Perspective Why Chivalry Is Dead, From A Man's Perspective Actually, Chivalry Is DEAD. Actually, Chivalry Is DEAD. | Thought Catalog The simple solution is to give females the exact same basic common courtesy you give other men, which doesn't require that you go out of your way to show it. Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Why Chivalry Is Dead, From A Man’s Perspective Why Chivalry Is Dead, From A Man's Perspective Actually, Chivalry Is DEAD. Actually, Chivalry Is DEAD. | Thought Catalog The simple solution is to give females the exact same basic common courtesy you give other men, which doesn't require that you go out of your way to show it. Cool. So you agree with me, because that second post in particular is exactly what I just said: acting "chivalrous" to get in someone's pants isn't chivalrous at all. And neither of them blames it on feminism, by the way. So, huzzah. all on the same page here. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 When a man spends so much time making sure he DOESN'T do things for women to prove a point...he's lost my respect. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Cool. So you agree with me, because that second post in particular is exactly what I just said: acting "chivalrous" to get in someone's pants isn't chivalrous at all. And neither of them blames it on feminism, by the way. So, huzzah. all on the same page here. Yes, the second article is very good. In its original sense, chivalry is a good thing. It’s the medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code. But it’s been boiled down in recent years to this idea of “ways to treat a lady”, generally romantically, with the eventual likely end goal of getting in her pants. There’s an old saying, “If a person is nice to you but rude to a waiter, they’re not a nice person.” If you hold the door for me, but not the old couple 5 feet behind us, then you’re not really a nice person. If you’re acting nice for the sole sake that I’m a woman and you’re a man, you’re not nice. "Chivalry has become this trope of the nice guy “I will act like this because women will like it and women will give me sex.” Link to post Share on other sites
Krieger Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 If the fathers are not contributing to the child's upkeep (financially or otherwise), then they are as irresponsible and as reliant on society to fix their ****-ups as she is. It takes two people to make a child, you know. I was not taking about what men do . It was about my cousin gets to have as many kids as she wants and she seen as strong and independent but the man has to pay child support if he fall behind he goes to jail. She can run the her new daddy government and get all kinds of free crap . She can go to college for free. If got someone pregnant and the woman just did not want to kid after a few years and now I have full custody of child I get no government help and she doesn't have to pay child support at all . There are no single father programs that help us .We just have to man up and take care of are businesses. Link to post Share on other sites
Krieger Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 No where have I heard of feminist that encouraged women to have tons of babies with tons of different fathers because independaaaaance! If anything, women who do are in this situation are not independent at all and choose to rely on the financial support from the kids' fathers/society. that' snot independence at all. I'm kind of sick of people blaming feminism for everything women do that they don't like. I just think people only should have as many kids as they can afford to have but that just me. Well said and I know a woman that has one child and she works close to full time 30+ hours and goes to school and does not take any money from a man or the government. That to me is an independent woman. Link to post Share on other sites
Krieger Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I suspect a tl;dr moment, since autumn addressed that just a few posts up. Seriously, you won't hold a door for somebody? Only if it an old lady or the person is right behind me than I will hold the door but if the person far enough away I will not. Link to post Share on other sites
Maleficent Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I was not taking about what men do . It was about my cousin gets to have as many kids as she wants and she seen as strong and independent but the man has to pay child support if he fall behind he goes to jail. She can run the her new daddy government and get all kinds of free crap . She can go to college for free. If got someone pregnant and the woman just did not want to kid after a few years and now I have full custody of child I get no government help and she doesn't have to pay child support at all . There are no single father programs that help us .We just have to man up and take care of are businesses. You are just as free to empregnate as many willing women as you wish. All we ask is that you take care of those kids. Though I'll agree with the last paragraph. Women should pay pensions when men have full custody and single fathers should be able to receive the same governmental support as single mothers. Link to post Share on other sites
Krieger Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 You are just as free to empregnate as many willing women as you wish. All we ask is that you take care of those kids. Though I'll agree with the last paragraph. Women should pay pensions when men have full custody and single fathers should be able to receive the same governmental support as single mothers. Yea i agree but I smart enough to know right now I can only afford one child so I would not be running around trying to make more children I cant help pay for. Single mothers that keep on having kids they know dam well that cant afford are POS IMO . Why would you have more kids if you all ready have 2 why keep on having children with men that are not crap? Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 True. But your assertion that there's an external reason for their hatred and behavior is disingenuous. These women weren't pushed to hatred by external means. They simply HATE. They also self identify as feminists. So my question is, how can I support a movement where some of its followers believe I should be dead? Some of the members of your "movement" believe I should be dead ... is that different to you? Link to post Share on other sites
understand50 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I suspect a tl;dr moment, since autumn addressed that just a few posts up. Seriously, you won't hold a door for somebody? Jen and Autumn, make a good point. Chivalry, has had many different meaning. In the beginning, it was a code of conduct, put in by the church, to stop knights from killing the peasants. Worked for the most part. It then encompassed, how to act during "war". It became the Geneva convention of its time. The "idea" was changed and later embraced, during Victorian times, as part of how a "gentleman" should act. So chivalry has meant many different things at different times. Myself, being courteous, and kind, is just who I am. I hold open doors for anyone who may needed, and I stop and help those in need. I have good manners, as it is how I am. Being rude is not manly. Not that I am a wimp, if I need to fight, verbally, physically or mentally, I go all in. I do not kick someone when they are down. I have my own code, and I stick to it. I treat my wife, as my lover and a person of value, because I love her unconditionally. Why would I be rude to her? I expect the same from her. In today's society, we are thought to be rude and be in it for yourself only. Manners to many, are not valued. We then wonder why the date, mate, boy, girl, so fourth, does not bring more to a relationship. Chivalry, is not working for women, as they do not know what it is, and also that it is a two ways street. Both sides have obligations, and the first is to think more about the other, then just your self. Ladies, you can change this. If you stop rewarding the bad boys, if you insist on good manners and being treated with respect. Know what they are, so you have a standard. The Boy Scouts are looked down on and treated with disrespect by many. Ladies, if your man, guy, BF tried and lived up to the Scout law, do you think you relationships would be better or worse? If not the scout law, then some other code to measure yourself or them by. What is yours? What is your man's? In many ways it is the training we give our young men and women, that is lacking. Scout Law. A Scout is: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. BTW, I know women that have adopted the scout law as well. It is not a bad place to start. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I can probably afford a number of kids but if I ever do become a father I want to be there in the child's life and actually be a father and do it with one woman. Supporting them is important but it is only a small part of fatherhood. Link to post Share on other sites
Krieger Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Chivalry Isn’t Dead (But It Should Be) Chivalry Isn?t Dead (But It Should Be) | Thought Catalog If Chivalry Isn’t Dead, Where Did It Go? If Chivalry Isn?t Dead, Where Did It Go? | Thought Catalog Link to post Share on other sites
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