The reason Chivalry is dead..

[losangelena]

I wanna back up the notion that sometimes it's hard for a woman to receive compliments. Women, from very early childhood, receive messages about themselves that conflate physical beauty with worthiness. So if a girl or woman doesn't meet some societal standard of beauty, she is often told that she's worthless.

 

All that being said—when someone compliments her, calls her beautiful, it's probably true, but she has a hard time hearing it. I'm ok at compliments, but if someone were to preface an invitation to a baseball game by saying, "I think you're truly beautiful," I think it'd weird me out a bit. Telling a woman she's beautiful is a boyfriend's job.

 

However, that also doesn't mean that I want or expect to be treated like crap. It's just that there is an appropriate time and context for everything.

 

Also, feminism is not about hating men or saying that men are unnecessary, it's about equality of the sexes. 100 years ago, women couldn't even vote in the U.S. A woman's place was in the home, and a wife was largely dependent on her husband to provide for her. Getting away from an abusive spouse or an indifferent one was difficult because divorce laws were so much stricter. So feminism (in part) is/was about ensuring that women are free not have to suffer under these strictures.

 

Anyway, I'll slip off my soapbox now ...

[Rejected Rosebud]

 

 

Chivalry is dead and feminism is to blame. Over the years, women have communicated that we don’t need men. Women are strong without them. There for you can do it your self lady’s.

:eek: Sorry but that is just plain WRONG Krieger!! Maybe in your world it's the way you see things but that is just sadsville. :( I am strong with our without a man!! I can do my life myself. My fiance likes it one of the things he likes about ME is that I am a capable person, lucky for me and for him too!! We don't choose to do our lives on our own but to share our lives!! Maybe this is just weird to you but we are both feminists and no he is not a wuss he could probably kick your butt sorry but just sayin'! Chivalry might be dead because like somebody said it's from medieval times and is not useful anymore but kind and courtly gestures from a man like holding the door or bringing flowers or whatever are usually appreciated alot by women I think!!

[Taramere]

People are confusing chivalry with manners. Women can have manners, only men can be chivalrous. It only applies to men. It means if you're on a ship that's sinking, an 80 year old woman gets on a lifeboat and watches her 50 year old son and 18 year old grandson die. It means the men in Aurora during the Batman movie acted as meat shields to die for the women, none of whom did that for the men. Manners are fine, a woman telling a man to pay for everything always so that he lives with his parents while she buys a place of her own isn't.

 

Women and children first, if it existed beyond the Titanic (and you might want to take a look at this then consider whether that was really the widespread practice it's purported to be) could be defined as chivalry. Sacrificing your life for another person in a split second - that can really only be instinct at work, because there's really no time to think about what the "chivalrous" thing to do in such a situation might be.

 

I certainly think it's true that men have this instinctive drive to protect women, whereas women are probably more instinctively driven to protect children. Others' first instinct might be self preservation. I don't really think it makes much sense for anybody to judge/credit themselves with reference to the heroic (or otherwise) actions of others, simply because they have gender in common. If a man (or woman) acts in a heroic or self sacrificing way, that is their own personal heroism/self sacrifice. Not anybody else's to take credit for.

[Rejected Rosebud]

People are confusing chivalry with manners. Women can have manners, only men can be chivalrous. It only applies to men. It means if you're on a ship that's sinking, an 80 year old woman gets on a lifeboat and watches her 50 year old son and 18 year old grandson die. It means the men in Aurora during the Batman movie acted as meat shields to die for the women, none of whom did that for the men. Manners are fine, a woman telling a man to pay for everything always so that he lives with his parents while she buys a place of her own isn't.

So what you just go right ahead and send the old lady into the ocean and hide behind the lady next to you in the movies, and I bet you wouldn't be the only one, you have no idea how many cowardly acts were done by anybody because only the ones we think of as heroic get in the news.

[Got it]

People are confusing chivalry with manners. Women can have manners, only men can be chivalrous. It only applies to men. It means if you're on a ship that's sinking, an 80 year old woman gets on a lifeboat and watches her 50 year old son and 18 year old grandson die. It means the men in Aurora during the Batman movie acted as meat shields to die for the women, none of whom did that for the men. Manners are fine, a woman telling a man to pay for everything always so that he lives with his parents while she buys a place of her own isn't.

 

You know this for a fact? That not a SINGLE female helped protect a man during the shooting? Please, cite your source.

[losangelena]

This is especially pertinent to this discussion: Death to Chivalry, Long Live Politeness!

[toscaroscura]

Cast my vote in for "you are expending your efforts on the wrong woman". I've had friends like you. They weren't as angry, but they follow these patterns:

 

1) They pull out romantic stops (flowers, chocolates, grand gestures) on women who aren't even their girlfriends yet, sometimes even women they have barely spoken to. Being so "romantic" before you have a relationship isn't romantic, it's weird, and most socially calibrated people know it.

 

The reason it feels so icky too is because isn't about being nice or showing genuine love. It's about creating a perceived debt, and people sense this when they receive over-the-top gifts with no precedent. I'm guessing because of the level of your anger at women that this is exactly what you were doing, and now you're mad that you've been "cheated".

 

2) They fixate on women with lots of drama around them. It's seriously exhausting what my buddies put up with with the women they chase, but they seem to love it! Sometimes these women are very beautiful and my friends get blinded. One buddy of mine was pouring all his efforts into this gorgeous girl who was obviously stringing him along. Evidence piled up that she was sleeping with multiple other guys, while telling my friend she wanted to take things slow (while still going on these elaborate dates he paid for). I tried telling him but he wouldn't hear of it. He had to finally learn the cold truth when he caught her with another guy. He even took her to meet his son!

 

Another friend finds these women with so much ex drama. He wants to "help" them with all their issues; he wants to be their rock. But he always gets hurt, and they always go back to their exes or a new guy altogether! It's kind of a running joke now, he'll tell me about this new girl he's talking to and I'll be like, "so how's her ex?"

 

3) They become Boyfriends to women who haven't earned the right. This ties into the above, where he becomes completely emotionally available to a woman who is practically a stranger. My buddy started talking to this girl, and suddenly he was available for her to chat all of her long emotional texts to, into all hours of the night. He would hang out at her house and help her deal with her alcoholic mother and sister. They were not dating, they were not sleeping together, and he wanted to be more than friends. He tricked himself into thinking they were on the track to that outcome. I'm not blaming her, she probably thought she found a new friend. It wasn't her fault he gave her his full Boyfriend Self without actually being her boyfriend. Eventually he started becoming resentful and pulling away. Last I heard, she texted him after long silence saying they never hang out anymore. She wasn't malicious like the girl above, who slept around and used my friend for dates, but my friends' anger remains the same. All these women get cast as women who "used" them. I tell my buddies, you did this to yourself, dude.

 

4) They prefer keeping things super-duper vague. They never ask girls out; they just sort of fall into constant hanging out. I'll ask my friend, have you kissed her yet? Been on a real date? Told her your feelings?? Anything? And he will always come back with, oh it's complicated, she's got a lot of emotional scars (), we are taking things really slow, we are just hanging out, etc etc!

 

Deep down they know if they state what they want clearly, without ambiguity, they will get rejected. These women were never interested in them like that in the first place!

[Woggle]

Actually, when most of the men here use the word feminism, they are not really thinking of Susan B Anthony. They are thinking of the angry, Gloria Steinem, bra-burning, "women need men like fish need a bicycle," "I'll yell at you if you open my door" brand of neo-bitchy-feminism.

 

And yeah, THAT would scare me outta being chivalrous is I was a man. Heck, I'm a woman and those feminazis scare me.

 

This right here. A lot of feminists who believe in equality don't realize how feminism in the last decade or so has turned into something completely different. The kind of women you speak of are the dominant voice in modern day feminism so of course any man with an ounce of self respect is going to oppose. No self respecting man supports a woman who says she is bathing in male tears any time a man brings up an issue that affects him.

[Maleficent]

This right here. A lot of feminists who believe in equality don't realize how feminism in the last decade or so has turned into something completely different. The kind of women you speak of are the dominant voice in modern day feminism so of course any man with an ounce of self respect is going to oppose. No self respecting man supports a woman who says she is bathing in male tears any time a man brings up an issue that affects him.

 

That's a load of crap. There are radical groups hiding behind feminism just like there are radical groups for everything out there.

It doesn't change the fact that feminism, by definition, is the belief that women should be the equal to me, socially, politically, and economically.

 

I agree no man is going to support a woman who says she is bathing in male tears any time a man brings up an issue that affects him.

Just like I will not stand by a man whose response to women bringing up issues is something along the lines 'shut up it happens to men too'.

 

There is enough empathy for everyone in my world. I will be more than happy to sympathize with any men dealing with abuse, violence, rape or any other issue, really.

 

But people, not getting laid is NOT a male or female issue. Hmk?

[autumnnight]

That's a load of crap. There are radical groups hiding behind feminism just like there are radical groups for everything out there.

It doesn't change the fact that feminism, by definition, is the belief that women should be the equal to me, socially, politically, and economically.

 

I agree no man is going to support a woman who says she is bathing in male tears any time a man brings up an issue that affects him.

Just like I will not stand by a man whose response to women bringing up issues is something along the lines 'shut up it happens to men too'.

 

There is enough empathy for everyone in my world. I will be more than happy to sympathize with any men dealing with abuse, violence, rape or any other issue, really.

 

But people, not getting laid is NOT a male or female issue. Hmk?

 

This is very much - in many ways - like southerners who insist the Confederate flag "isn't really about slavery." Yeah, by definition that may be true, but you'd have to be living under a rock or be intentionally blind not to know the connotation that the modern word "feminism" has these days, especially to most men.

 

Sadly, the loudest and most ridiculous voices sometimes begin to define a term.

[Woggle]

The confederate flag is different. It always was and still is a symbol of racism but it's supporters are too cowardly to be honest about how they really feel. Feminism started it out as a very good thing and many feminists still do believe in the genders being equal. The most dominant voice in modern feminism though is that of hateful misandrists and no man with ounce of self respect is against himself. Nobody in general with self respect is against themselves. You tell me I am a potential rapist and a natural born oppressor because I have a penis but I am the sexist for defending myself?

[toolforgrowth]

The confederate flag is different. It always was and still is a symbol of racism but it's supporters are too cowardly to be honest about how they really feel. Feminism started it out as a very good thing and many feminists still do believe in the genders being equal. The most dominant voice in modern feminism though is that of hateful misandrists and no man with ounce of self respect is against himself. Nobody in general with self respect is against themselves. You tell me I am a potential rapist and a natural born oppressor because I have a penis but I am the sexist for defending myself?

 

There you have it. This describes my feelings and perceptions as a man exactly. When I was younger I definitely identified as a feminist. I deeply cared about women's issues, was attracted to strong women, and was highly chivalrous.

 

But today, I can't identify with feminism anymore. I'm a rapist and an oppressor simply because I'm a man? I'm automatically capable of rape and furthering "rape culture"? I systematically do everything I can to keep women oppressed?

 

Feminists already had me. I was in their camp. But the modern feminist movement tossed me out of their own accord. And i see no real reason to return. That doesn't mean I no longer believe in equal rights for all, because I do. But I no longer demonstrably support feminist issues. They made it clear I was part of the problem, when what I wanted was to be part of the solution. And I just don't care anymore to bother.

[autumnnight]

The most dominant voice in modern feminism though is that of hateful misandrists and no man with ounce of self respect is against himself. Nobody in general with self respect is against themselves. You tell me I am a potential rapist and a natural born oppressor because I have a penis but I am the sexist for defending myself?

 

Yep, and those who do not recognize that THIS has become the present defacto perception of feminism are fooling themselves.

[Woggle]

I think a lot of women don't know about this element. They think guys who criticize feminism are trying to take away their rights or make them barefoot and pregnant when most of us are just defending ourselves. In their mind feminism is still what it was back in the 60s. Many of the feminists in this thread would be considered gender traitors and stepford wives by the Jezebel crowd.

[Maleficent]

Yep, and those who do not recognize that THIS has become the present defacto perception of feminism are fooling themselves.

 

 

I disagree. Some groups are exaggerating for sure.

But I don't think putting my arms down and dissociating from feminism because of the crazy ones who are taking a good concept too far will be constructive.

It will actually make things worse.

 

I'd much rather keep my feminism stance and call out the feminazies (double standards etc) . You'd be amazed at the amount of respect I actually get from anti feminists once they've gotten over the fact I identify as feminist...

[Woggle]

I disagree. Some groups are exaggerating for sure.

But I don't think putting my arms down and dissociating from feminism because of the crazy ones who are taking a good concept too far will be constructive.

It will actually make things worse.

 

I'd much rather keep my feminism stance and call out the feminazies (double standards etc) . You'd be amazed at the amount of respect I actually get from anti feminists once they've gotten over the fact I identify as feminist...

 

You should not distance yourself from feminism but feminists who are not hateful would do wonders for the image of their movement if they distanced themselves from the misandrists. I am sure you have men you care about. Do you want to be associated with people who think they are potential rapists and oppressors? Do you want to support people who say they are drinking and bathing in their tears?

[toolforgrowth]

I disagree. Some groups are exaggerating for sure.

But I don't think putting my arms down and dissociating from feminism because of the crazy ones who are taking a good concept too far will be constructive.

It will actually make things worse.

 

I'd much rather keep my feminism stance and call out the feminazies (double standards etc) . You'd be amazed at the amount of respect I actually get from anti feminists once they've gotten over the fact I identify as feminist...

 

It's nothing personal. Most of the feminists I know are pretty reasonable. The issue is the radical element has become a significant political power and voting bloc. I can't consciously vote for and support candidates and policies that are directly against my best interest as a man.

 

You seem like a very reasonable person and I think your beliefs are just fine.

[Maleficent]

You should not distance yourself from feminism but feminists who are not hateful would do wonders for the image of their movement if they distanced themselves from the misandrists. I am sure you have men you care about. Do you want to be associated with people who think they are potential rapists and oppressors? Do you want to support people who say they are drinking and bathing in their tears?

 

Exactly! Misandrists. Not feminists.

[toscaroscura]

While I have seen extreme feminists (the ones who hate trans people and men), they are such a minority that when people start talking about misandrists, I wonder who they really mean?

 

I used to read a lot of online feminism and concepts of social justice, until I finally got burnt out over it and didn't like the "oppression olympics" attitude that started becoming prominent. I consider myself a feminist as well, but I am not the kind that's going to police all your word choices. So it's been a long time since I have talked about any of this but I think I can shed some light.

 

A lot of stuff, like "feminists think all men are rapists" or "feminists say they love bathing in male tears" are taken way out of context.

 

"Feminists think all men are rapists/oppressors"- I remember a debate about the concept of "Schrodinger's Rapist" a while back. It was basically the explanation for why women are wary of men they don't know approaching them. The point of it wasn't that all men ARE rapists, it's that rapists are out there among everyday men and women don't know who they are on first glance. So to a woman, any strange man has that potential because she simply doesn't know. But I see a lot of people misunderstand this, get defensive and say that now all feminists think ALL men are rapists.

 

"Feminists think each individual man is an Oppressor"- this is often the misunderstanding of the concept of systematic oppression. There are many, many academic papers on this subject, and I'm not going to get into this very nuanced concept on LS, but the point is no feminist who has actually done her homework thinks every individual man is an Oppressor, all by himself. Being part of any sort of oppressive societal framework is subtle. It's like asking a fish to notice the water it swims in. I recognize that I am part of systematic racism, because I am white and enjoy the automatic privileges that entails. It doesn't mean I believe I am a racist, or that minorities all hate me and think I am a white devil, or that I need to feel guilty about being white. Believe me, I used to get really defensive about it too. It felt like a personal attack. But it's not, not at all. Once I stopped taking it personally and making it all about me, I truly understood what they were telling me.

 

"feminists say they love bathing in male tears"- I won't deny that there are some snarky feminists out there. But, usually when I saw this, it was in response to trolls that would come in to a discussion about say, violence against women, and start spouting some red pill ideology or make the comments derail into men's issues. So yes, you are bound to see snarky responses to this derailing. Feminists are just women (usually) and women are only human. And also, that type of derailing happened so often and predictably that their patience had usually run out trying to explain things to these trolls in good faith, only to have vile insults and misogyny hurled in response.

 

Most feminists out there realize that gender roles and oppression effect men too, but there are times and places for it. If the article or blog post is about a specific women's issue and trolls try to shout it down, that isn't appropriate. I have seen feminists write about men's issues many times!

 

Anyway, I'm not really interested in starting a whole debate about feminism. I just wanted to clear up what I see as basic misunderstanding of certain concepts in the feminist community.

[toolforgrowth]

While I have seen extreme feminists (the ones who hate trans people and men), they are such a minority that when people start talking about misandrists, I wonder who they really mean?

 

I used to read a lot of online feminism and concepts of social justice, until I finally got burnt out over it and didn't like the "oppression olympics" attitude that started becoming prominent. I consider myself a feminist as well, but I am not the kind that's going to police all your word choices. So it's been a long time since I have talked about any of this but I think I can shed some light.

 

A lot of stuff, like "feminists think all men are rapists" or "feminists say they love bathing in male tears" are taken way out of context.

 

"Feminists think all men are rapists/oppressors"- I remember a debate about the concept of "Schrodinger's Rapist" a while back. It was basically the explanation for why women are wary of men they don't know approaching them. The point of it wasn't that all men ARE rapists, it's that rapists are out there among everyday men and women don't know who they are on first glance. So to a woman, any strange man has that potential because she simply doesn't know. But I see a lot of people misunderstand this, get defensive and say that now all feminists think ALL men are rapists.

 

"Feminists think each individual man is an Oppressor"- this is often the misunderstanding of the concept of systematic oppression. There are many, many academic papers on this subject, and I'm not going to get into this very nuanced concept on LS, but the point is no feminist who has actually done her homework thinks every individual man is an Oppressor, all by himself. Being part of any sort of oppressive societal framework is subtle. It's like asking a fish to notice the water it swims in. I recognize that I am part of systematic racism, because I am white and enjoy the automatic privileges that entails. It doesn't mean I believe I am a racist, or that minorities all hate me and think I am a white devil, or that I need to feel guilty about being white. Believe me, I used to get really defensive about it too. It felt like a personal attack. But it's not, not at all. Once I stopped taking it personally and making it all about me, I truly understood what they were telling me.

 

"feminists say they love bathing in male tears"- I won't deny that there are some snarky feminists out there. But, usually when I saw this, it was in response to trolls that would come in to a discussion about say, violence against women, and start spouting some red pill ideology or make the comments derail into men's issues. So yes, you are bound to see snarky responses to this derailing. Feminists are just women (usually) and women are only human. And also, that type of derailing happened so often and predictably that their patience had usually run out trying to explain things to these trolls in good faith, only to have vile insults and misogyny hurled in response.

 

Most feminists out there realize that gender roles and oppression effect men too, but there are times and places for it. If the article or blog post is about a specific women's issue and trolls try to shout it down, that isn't appropriate. I have seen feminists write about men's issues many times!

 

Anyway, I'm not really interested in starting a whole debate about feminism. I just wanted to clear up what I see as basic misunderstanding of certain concepts in the feminist community.

 

In 1980, Sally Miller Gearhart said that the male population should be reduced to 10% of all humans. I'm pretty sure "trolls" didn't exist back then.

 

These aren't new ideas. I was born the same year she said that. In fact, this idea is still espoused today:

 

Meet the Woman Who Wants to Reduce The Male Population by 90% "For Peace" - Liberty Doll

[toscaroscura]

In 1980, Sally Miller Gearhart said that the male population should be reduced to 10% of all humans. I'm pretty sure "trolls" didn't exist back then.

 

These aren't new ideas. I was born the same year she said that. In fact, this idea is still espoused today:

 

Meet the Woman Who Wants to Reduce The Male Population by 90% "For Peace" - Liberty Doll

 

I have never heard of her.

 

Look, I know people like this exist. I know Solanas existed. I never denied it, and I say so in my very first paragraph. But there are thousands who don't think this way. For every Solanas, for every Gearhart, there are thousands of reasonable, human feminists who are appalled at what these women advocate.

[Maleficent]

While I have seen extreme feminists (the ones who hate trans people and men), they are such a minority that when people start talking about misandrists, I wonder who they really mean?

 

I used to read a lot of online feminism and concepts of social justice, until I finally got burnt out over it and didn't like the "oppression olympics" attitude that started becoming prominent. I consider myself a feminist as well, but I am not the kind that's going to police all your word choices. So it's been a long time since I have talked about any of this but I think I can shed some light.

 

A lot of stuff, like "feminists think all men are rapists" or "feminists say they love bathing in male tears" are taken way out of context.

 

"Feminists think all men are rapists/oppressors"- I remember a debate about the concept of "Schrodinger's Rapist" a while back. It was basically the explanation for why women are wary of men they don't know approaching them. The point of it wasn't that all men ARE rapists, it's that rapists are out there among everyday men and women don't know who they are on first glance. So to a woman, any strange man has that potential because she simply doesn't know. But I see a lot of people misunderstand this, get defensive and say that now all feminists think ALL men are rapists.

 

"Feminists think each individual man is an Oppressor"- this is often the misunderstanding of the concept of systematic oppression. There are many, many academic papers on this subject, and I'm not going to get into this very nuanced concept on LS, but the point is no feminist who has actually done her homework thinks every individual man is an Oppressor, all by himself. Being part of any sort of oppressive societal framework is subtle. It's like asking a fish to notice the water it swims in. I recognize that I am part of systematic racism, because I am white and enjoy the automatic privileges that entails. It doesn't mean I believe I am a racist, or that minorities all hate me and think I am a white devil, or that I need to feel guilty about being white. Believe me, I used to get really defensive about it too. It felt like a personal attack. But it's not, not at all. Once I stopped taking it personally and making it all about me, I truly understood what they were telling me.

 

"feminists say they love bathing in male tears"- I won't deny that there are some snarky feminists out there. But, usually when I saw this, it was in response to trolls that would come in to a discussion about say, violence against women, and start spouting some red pill ideology or make the comments derail into men's issues. So yes, you are bound to see snarky responses to this derailing. Feminists are just women (usually) and women are only human. And also, that type of derailing happened so often and predictably that their patience had usually run out trying to explain things to these trolls in good faith, only to have vile insults and misogyny hurled in response.

 

Most feminists out there realize that gender roles and oppression effect men too, but there are times and places for it. If the article or blog post is about a specific women's issue and trolls try to shout it down, that isn't appropriate. I have seen feminists write about men's issues many times!

 

Anyway, I'm not really interested in starting a whole debate about feminism. I just wanted to clear up what I see as basic misunderstanding of certain concepts in the feminist community.

 

That is a GREAT post!

[Woggle]

I actually have a certain respect for women like her and Solanas because they come right out and say it. If you hate me have the honor to come right out and say it. It's the ones who hide their misandry only for it to come out during certain moments that get to me. The vast majority of people won't take somebody advocating genocide of the male gender seriously but telling a man going nasty divorce to call the waambulance is taken seriously. The latter is the bigger issue.

[toolforgrowth]

I have never heard of her.

 

Look, I know people like this exist. I know Solanas existed. I never denied it, and I say so in my very first paragraph. But there are thousands who don't think this way. For every Solanas, for every Gearhart, there are thousands of reasonable, human feminists who are appalled at what these women advocate.

 

True. But your assertion that there's an external reason for their hatred and behavior is disingenuous. These women weren't pushed to hatred by external means. They simply HATE. They also self identify as feminists. So my question is, how can I support a movement where some of its followers believe I should be dead?

 

Feminists own their fringe movement. Just like Christians own WBC, MRA their misogynists, etc.

[carhill]

Chivalry will never die as long as men choose to embrace the modern-day tenets of the philosophy. Women are irrelevant in that equation. Sure, they can avoid chivalrous men and choose not to mate with them but that is their choice.

 

Hence, to the extent it has died, 'why' is men have chosen it to become extinct. We chose.