SCOTUS on religious liberty [relevant to recent decision on same-sex marriage]

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I think there is a difference between a person who has approached their past with repentance and humility and a person who flat out ignores their own sin.

 

On a different note, I got into a war of words with a very old acquaintance yesterday because of something he posted on FB that I thought was way over the top - it was way past quoting the Bible and into..."we should be free to call THEM the same name as the Bible does blah blah"...just really hateful. I thought I could make him think by asking him if a gay couple walked into his church service on Sunday, how would they be treated (he is a pastor). That you don;t have to agree with someone to be kind to them.

 

He actually said:

 

They would be welcome as long as they agreed to sit separately. If they did not agree, they would be asked to leave.

 

I was floored. What???????

 

THAT is why so many people hate Christians. That right there.

 

I was a member of a small church that had several gay couples as members. They sat together every Sunday. Served the church and community faithfully. Loved their God with all of their heart, and neighbors as themselves (Matthew 22:34-40). Yet, some of the biggest a-holes I know are hetero self-righteous Christians. Go figure.

[pureinheart]

It's interesting. I live in the South, and I get judged and disliked for expressing views that go against the Christian mainstream.

Could this be conviction on your part? Could this be why you are so hard on the 'church'. I was at one point too- I've got the proof somewhere on LS.

 

I think a lot of people have, sadly, been very damaged by the church, and I say this as someone raised in the church and who still identifies as a Christian. The LGBT community has been so marginalized by the church, yet we should be the ones who open our arms to this community. They really have it so bad with regards to discrimination, especially in the South.

 

The truth offends people, so I have to wonder if what some call 'discrimination' isn't actually arms being wide open, but refused when the truth is being spoken to them. It's like the drug addict or alcoholic, when told they need to quit, they avoid those people.

 

I've yet to see a church that would turn away a person simply because they are gay. The Bible has outlined how to deal with constant habitual sin ... most people don't like that.

 

I just find it appalling that we live in a country where people go hungry, have no access to basic health care, are greatly discriminated against for mental illness, we exalt consumerism/greed, ect. yet the church seems to think that discrimination and further marginalization the LGBT community is important. I think that is why people who are not Christians simply cannot understand why anyone would even want to be a part of the church. And I don't blame them one bit.

 

Again, people hate the truth and right now it's very popular (and we do live in a people pleasing world that find popularity more palatable than the truth) to hate and trash the church- blame the church for every single injustice one has ever experienced. BTDT.

Edited July 2, 2015 by pureinheart

[Yamaha]

Do you think the ruling on same-sex marriage will affect religious groups in other ways? (such as tax exemption status and discrimination at religious colleges and schools).

 

I think it is a matter of time before churches will be hard pressed to keep the courts out of their interests. Religion is not cool now-days. Many are looking to put a fork into conservative views and declare them done and outdated. Words like bigots and fascists are tossed out like candy.

I don't have the answers but both sides want to win and, just like congress, they no longer want to compromise. Both sides have merit.

[pureinheart]

The church has well earned its reputation. I'm not happy to say that, but there it is. Judgement abounds and always has. The church has a long history of discriminating against and subordinating women. It has marginalized the LGBT community. The list goes on.

 

What have gays done to hurt anyone? Can you imagine being discriminated against simply for who you are? For being born a certain way, probably not wanting to be gay, but having no control over that? What in the world have gays done to hurt anyone in history? They are human beings who simply want to be treated like other human beings. Yet they are heckled, disowned by their own families, not welcome in the church, and, until now, have been denied the basic right to marry.

 

Trashing the 'church' continually will only hurt you.

[Justanaverageguy]

<Moderation note - new topics relevant to religious or legal aspects of the SCOTUS decision will be merged into the master topics. Personal experiences post-decision, like gay members getting married, can be discussed in the relevant fora. This is a merged thread>

So was big news in the US last week. I'm going to open a can of worms that people usually have very strong feelings about. What are your thoughts on gay marriage and marriage equality in general ? As I'm asking the question I'll throw my own views out there first.

 

I was lucky enough to grow up with two very close friends who came out as gay in my teenage years. I say lucky because I consider myself somewhat blessed to have had that experience and seeing what they went through and how difficult it was for them. I would not have the perspective I have now without that experience. I grew up in a small/mid size regional town where "gay" was used as regularly derogatory term and guys used it as a way to shame other guys. When your best friend comes out as gay makes you rethink a lot of things. Aside from that I was also raised strongly catholic so I have that Church influence which goes against homosexuality. Though I don't practice or follow the religion or agree with that position - I am still thankful for that upbringing.

 

So my view (not just on this but pretty much anything) is: If what you're doing does not directly effect anyone else in a negative way. Then you're alright with me. So I'm 100% pro gay marriage. I can't believe it has taken modern countries this long to pass the laws. I also can't understand how anyone could actually be apposed to love between two consenting adults no matter who they are. I don't understand the argument that someone allowing gay marriage some how makes heterosexual marriage less worthwhile. It doesn't make any sense. I simply don't understand the argument.

 

Whats your opinion ?

Edited July 2, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Merged with master thread

[Pompom]

If you do no harm (as opposed to "offense", as in, someone may say "Ew" or "I disapprove"), do whatever you like. We only live once and it's such a horrible thought to me that someone would be forced to live a life of lies, hiding, and pretense for fear of repercussions, when they're not hurting anyone.

[PrettyEmily77]

Whats your opinion ?

 

 

Nonplussed. This shouldn't even have been an issue, IMO, and it should have been sorted a long time ago. It's done now, very glad for the LGBT community in the USA, but it's probs time to move on to more pressing issues who concern everyone (like the economy and stuff...).

[Justanaverageguy]

Nonplussed. This shouldn't even have been an issue, IMO, and it should have been sorted a long time ago. It's done now, very glad for the LGBT community in the USA, but it's probs time to move on to more pressing issues who concern everyone (like the economy and stuff...).

 

True - not sorted in my home country though

[BC1980]

Trashing the 'church' continually will only hurt you.

 

I call it speaking to the facts of history and having some empathy for those who feel the church has caused them harm.

[BC1980]

Could this be conviction on your part? Could this be why you are so hard on the 'church'. I was at one point too- I've got the proof somewhere on LS.

 

 

The truth offends people, so I have to wonder if what some call 'discrimination' isn't actually arms being wide open, but refused when the truth is being spoken to them. It's like the drug addict or alcoholic, when told they need to quit, they avoid those people.

 

I've yet to see a church that would turn away a person simply because they are gay. The Bible has outlined how to deal with constant habitual sin ... most people don't like that.

 

 

 

Again, people hate the truth and right now it's very popular (and we do live in a people pleasing world that find popularity more palatable than the truth) to hate and trash the church- blame the church for every single injustice one has ever experienced. BTDT.

 

But truth is a nebulous concept in many instances. We all have our own version if it. What gets truly scary is when people think they have God's ultimate truth on lockdown. I think it's probably impossible for us to engage in discussion because we disagree on fundamental issues.

[Grumpybutfun]

It's interesting. I live in the South, and I get judged and disliked for expressing views that go against the Christian mainstream. I think a lot of people have, sadly, been very damaged by the church, and I say this as someone raised in the church and who still identifies as a Christian. The LGBT community has been so marginalized by the church, yet we should be the ones who open our arms to this community. They really have it so bad with regards to discrimination, especially in the South.

 

I just find it appalling that we live in a country where people go hungry, have no access to basic health care, are greatly discriminated against for mental illness, we exalt consumerism/greed, ect. yet the church seems to think that discrimination and further marginalization the LGBT community is important. I think that is why people who are not Christians simply cannot understand why anyone would even want to be a part of the church. And I don't blame them one bit.

 

I concur and I also see these two things being a part of people's voting rhetoric.....abortion and gay rights will determine the way people vote with no worries about more pragmatic matters. I've been around for a long time and hot topics are the reason people vote...in the south throw in guns and getting to be as discrimatory as possible so that they can pretend they are still the top the totem pole ( yeah that was on purpose.)

 

The thing that bothers me about these threads isn't so much that people have opinions, but they are opinions based on a religion that brainwashes good people and makes them the opposite of what Jesus did. They take Old Testament scritpure with the same gravitas as the new and the old is for Jews and has nothing to do with Gentiles. I don't believe in either but if you follow Jesus, he would be on the side of people having rights...he was a rock star like that. I think he is rather cool as a leader.

Best,

G

[UpwardForward]

I concur and I also see these two things being a part of people's voting rhetoric.....abortion and gay rights will determine the way people vote with no worries about more pragmatic matters. I've been around for a long time and hot topics are the reason people vote...in the south throw in guns and getting to be as discrimatory as possible so that they can pretend they are still the top the totem pole ( yeah that was on purpose.)

 

The thing that bothers me about these threads isn't so much that people have opinions, but they are opinions based on a religion that brainwashes good people and makes them the opposite of what Jesus did. They take Old Testament scritpure with the same gravitas as the new and the old is for Jews and has nothing to do with Gentiles. I don't believe in either but if you follow Jesus, he would be on the side of people having rights...he was a rock star like that. I think he is rather cool as a leader.

Best,

G

 

Jesus reiterated marriage to be between a man and a woman.

 

And yes, I vote according to the abortion issue first. Or a candidate who is Against abortion. After that, it's govt spending and national security.

[No Limit]

To be honest, I don't have any opinion about it. I don't care who marries whom or what gender they have. My view on homosexuals is a little bit negative though because of that one aggressive lesbian couple, probably thinking they were so provoking that they kept swimming in my way for half an hour. Same with vegans who think they're the new master race and rub everyone's nose in it. But I try not to generalize, met a homosexual guy once and he was nice, cross-dressing guy didn't make much of a fuss either.

[d0nnivain]

We don't need 2 threads about this. The 45 pages that already exists are plenty: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/off-topic/current-events/534969-supreme-court-rule-states-must-allow-gay-marriage

[autumnnight]

Here is my Biblical take on SCOTUS:

 

The Bible/Jesus has given us a few commands:

 

1. Be holy as I am holy - not to be confused with make sure other people are holy

 

2. Love the Lord your God with all Your heart, mind, soul and strength

 

3. Love your neighbor as yourself (and based on the parable of the Good Samaritan, I think we all know neighbor doesn't just mean people who are just like us)

 

4. Go, therefore and make preach the gospel/make discplies of every nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all I have commanded you (and please, let's not go off on some angry tangent about evangelizing or shoving beliefs down throats - that is NOT the point of this)

 

So...from what I can gather, everyone who professes Christ has some pretty tall personal orders. Now, maybe some people are soooooo holy, righteous and perfect and have so much time on their hands that they can do ALL of the above and still have time to rant about a secular government making a secular decision, complete with anger, sarcasm, condescension, and refusal to listen to anyone else.

 

I don't. I am so frail and human, that just the first THREE of those commands are more than I can handle, and number 4 is one I am working on.

 

Since none of His commands included becoming a political activist or a tactless jerk, I have to wonder why all of my Facebook friends are so distracted by one particular sin.....do they really think that if Jesus had talked to Zaccheus or the adulterous woman the way they are talking to/about gay people that either one of those figures would have wanted anything to do with Him?

 

Take the cotton out of your ears, Christians, and put it in your mouth. You are not acting like Jesus.

[Grumpybutfun]

Finally, America doesn't seem like a backwards country whose government is saturated by religious nonsense....for once. We have a long way to go though as people are still being homophobes in the name of a loving God and a loving Jesus, of course.

G

[UpwardForward]

Here is my Biblical take on SCOTUS:

 

<snip>

 

So...from what I can gather, everyone who professes Christ has some pretty tall personal orders. Now, maybe some people are soooooo holy, righteous and perfect and have so much time on their hands that they can do ALL of the above and still have time to rant about a secular government making a secular decision, complete with anger, sarcasm, condescension, and refusal to listen to anyone else.

 

I don't. I am so frail and human, that just the first THREE of those commands are more than I can handle, and number 4 is one I am working on.

 

Since none of His commands included becoming a political activist or a tactless jerk, I have to wonder why all of my Facebook friends are so distracted by one particular sin.....do they really think that if Jesus had talked to Zaccheus or the adulterous woman the way they are talking to/about gay people that either one of those figures would have wanted anything to do with Him?

 

Take the cotton out of your ears, Christians, and put it in your mouth. You are not acting like Jesus.

 

Who continues to rant - in Your persistent judgement/correction of others?

Edited July 2, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Redact portion of full quote.

[William]

As a reminder, all points of view on the religious aspects of the recent SCOTUS decision and religious liberty are welcomed, as long as they are presented in a civil manner reflecting the tenets of religion and, more importantly, our guidelines of discussion. Thanks!

[hotpotato]

Gay people pay taxes like everyone else.

[autumnnight]

Who continues to rant - in Your persistent judgement/correction of others?

 

I apologize if it comes off that way.

 

Regarding religious liberty, I do not believe that at this point the SCOTUS ruling will affect our right to practice our faith as individuals, and I do not believe at this time that it will prevent us from practicing and staying true to our faith as pastors and churches.

 

However, I am not one with my head stuck in the sand. In this day and age, appreciation for and tolerance of Christianity is at an all time low. And sensitivity to anything that resembles "hate" is at an all time high. The most sure-fire way top GET the government involved is for religious people to go off half-cocked in anger and MAKE things as difficult as possible for gay people. I am not saying that is fair, I am saying that is the world we live in.

[Robert Z]

To be honest, I don't have any opinion about it. I don't care who marries whom or what gender they have. My view on homosexuals is a little bit negative though because of that one aggressive lesbian couple, probably thinking they were so provoking that they kept swimming in my way for half an hour. Same with vegans who think they're the new master race and rub everyone's nose in it. But I try not to generalize, met a homosexual guy once and he was nice, cross-dressing guy didn't make much of a fuss either.

 

 

Haha, yes indeed, and many gay men have a false sense or superiority! I saw one noted gay author on an interview on CNN, who actually said in a Freudian way, that gay men are superior to straight men.

 

It has been my position that those who oppose homosexual practices should support gay marriage. What better way to put an end to gay sex!

[SoleMate]

On whether Jesus advocated being a political activist or tactless jerk, how about Matthew 21? 12] And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13] And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."…

Edited July 2, 2015 by SoleMate
typo

[kenji_t]

Of course yes...

[PrettyEmily77]

Gay people pay taxes like everyone else.

 

Not everyone pays their taxes, gay or not . Seems so normal to me I sometimes forget how much of a struggle it has been for the gay community to get there. To be blunt though, as a medic I'm far more concerned with the state of the health care system, which affects everyone.

[autumnnight]

On whether Jesus advocated being a political activist or tactless jerk, how about Matthew 21? 12] And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13] And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."…

 

Very interesting passage. In this passage, Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees and those WITHIN the Temple. In other words, His rebuke was for the church. The only time Jesus ever became aggressive was in His rebuke of THE CHURCH/Religious Leaders....not unbelievers. So we cannot use Jesus as an excuse to get angry, hateful, sarcastic, and snippy with gay people.