SCOTUS on religious liberty [relevant to recent decision on same-sex marriage]

[Justanaverageguy]

We don't need 2 threads about this. The 45 pages that already exists are plenty: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/off-topic/current-events/534969-supreme-court-rule-states-must-allow-gay-marriage

 

Sorry I had a quick look and didn't see one. I'll post on a topic more original next time that we don't see here very often .... maybe something on Alpha males

[writergal]

Very interesting passage. In this passage, Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees and those WITHIN the Temple. In other words, His rebuke was for the church. The only time Jesus ever became aggressive was in His rebuke of THE CHURCH/Religious Leaders....not unbelievers. So we cannot use Jesus as an excuse to get angry, hateful, sarcastic, and snippy with gay people.

 

 

Exactly!! But I like Solemate's Bible passage because it can easily be a parallel for the way conservative Christians who are bullying gay people in the name of Christ, to fit their own personal agenda (be homophobic), rather than what Christianity truly represents.

 

That's what I believe: Conservative Christians believe secular rules don't apply to them, but just to everyone else. I also believe that conservative Christians want to implement Dominionism Theology into American culture, and to amend the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment so that they can claim Biblical Law trumps Civil law, and label America as a 100% Christian nation which it is not.

 

Biblical Law (the belief there is a God) vs. Natural Law (the belief there isn't a God) is at the core of America's culture war.

 

Conservative Christians also contradict the actual Biblical teachings when they whine about same-sex marriage being legalized as though that means they are being persecuted.

 

Didn't Jesus tell Christians to expect to be persecuted and that the way to handle that persecution was to batten down the hatches and become MORE Christian instead of whine about who is persecuting you and why? All that whining from conservatives reeks of entitlement to me.

 

In no way does same-sex marriage directly impact conservative Christians' lives. So I just don't understand what all the fuss is about.

[Keenly]

Would anyone like to complete the following sentences? [relevant to religious liberty - moderation note]

 

 

The gay marriage ruling prevents me from:

 

 

 

The gay marriage ruling affects my business in the following ways:

 

 

The gay marriage ruling takes away my right to:

 

 

 

 

If these questions are answered, I'll Listen with a completely open mind.

Edited July 2, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[writergal]

Would anyone like to complete the following sentences? [relevant to religious liberty - moderation note]

 

 

The gay marriage ruling prevents me from:

 

 

 

The gay marriage ruling affects my business in the following ways:

 

 

The gay marriage ruling takes away my right to:

 

 

If these questions are answered, I'll Listen with a completely open mind.

 

+1 Keenly! Very insightful and drives home a very obvious and important point: same-sex marriage has no real negative impact on anyone's life. I'm curious to see if anyone answers your questions. I'd respect them more if they did.

[pureinheart]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. What I'm reading in this thread is that the gay agenda is political and because I'm a Christian I need to stay silent as Jesus stayed silent (which He didn't). This is what I am hearing some of you say.

[norajane]

I guess the question is, How do we, as a nation, protect the rights of all its citizens? If we have the right to free assembly and exercise, it seems that someone is going to lose out on their rights.

 

Care to discuss your views and how you see this ruling leading us in the future.

I see the religious views being maligned and marginalized in favor of the majority. You can practice/teach your religion in church but you can't exercise it outside of that institution.

 

Keeping religious practice out of the law is in everyone's best interests. Preventing religious practitioners from discriminating against other people is in everyone's best interests.

 

The Christians crying about being forced to accept equal rights for gay people as it relates to legal marriage are the same Christians who would be outraged if Muslims expected to be protected while practicing Sharia Law.

[autumnnight]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. What I'm reading in this thread is that the gay agenda is political and because I'm a Christian I need to stay silent as Jesus stayed silent (which He didn't). This is what I am hearing some of you say.

 

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying prioritize. I have to wonder...in our frenzy to call out gays, to call scared teenage pregnant girls murderers, to call all Democrats liberals and communists, to call public schools dens of evil indoctrination, to call Harry Potter Satanic, to call short skirts...well, you get the idea...

 

With all our busyness making sure everyone who is sinful knows exactly how sinful we, the chosen, know they are.....do we have any time left over to do what Jesus actually said to do first?

[pureinheart]

Keeping religious practice out of the law is in everyone's best interests. Preventing religious practitioners from discriminating against other people is in everyone's best interests.

 

The Christians crying about being forced to accept equal rights for gay people as it relates to legal marriage are the same Christians who would be outraged if Muslims expected to be protected while practicing Sharia Law.

 

Don't you think Sharia law is much different?

[autumnnight]

The bottom line is that I understand that a certain...permutation of Christian is NOT going to hear a word I say and probably clucks their tongues while calling me "wordly", so consumed are they with convincing the world that SCOTUS is wrong. Trust me, I am no stranger to being on tiny church prayer lists and the topic of conversation at sheltered dinner tables.

 

The fact is, I do believe that God's Word is infallible. I do believe that the only reason I have any hope is because of what He did. I do believe that I am called to live MY life in holiness.

 

I just don't read anywhere in my Bible that I am required to post a quota of anti-gay articles on my FB news feed or that in order to REALLY be one of Jesus', you know, like, IMPORTANT followers I have to rant about the mote in everyone else's eye.

 

Again, we, in 2015, live in a secular country and a decision was made by a secular body. We don't have to adjust our personal beliefs or agree with it. But what, exactly, besides a feeling of self-satisfaction, is to be gained by the anger and railing?

[norajane]

Don't you think Sharia law is much different?

 

As an atheist, to me, all religious practices that discriminate against legal or human rights are the same.

[hotgurl]

Don't you think Sharia law is much different?

 

No not really. Maybe the rules are different but Sharia Law is a code of conduct for the faithful derived from holy books. It address topics crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, everyday etiquette and fasting.

 

In some countries the criminal justice, crime and punishments is based on Sharia Law but other countries use secular law. There has been controversy over the differences between Sharia Law and secular law in those countries.

 

So really the only difference is the faith that is being practiced.

[UpwardForward]

The SCOTUS passed same-sex marriage as the law of the land.

 

Here are the dissertations of some of the judges.

 

"Many who deem same-sex marriage to be wrong reach that conclusion based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises," acknowledges Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing for the majority in Obergefell v. Hodges, "and neither they nor their beliefs are disparaged here." He explains that while that "sincere, personal opposition" cannot be "enacted law and public policy" without harming gay couples and violating the Fourteenth Amendment, he favors a continued "open and searching debate" between those who favor and oppose same-sex marriage.

Chief Justice John Roberts is less confident. In his dissent, he argues that today’s decision "creates serious questions about religious liberty."

"Many good and decent people oppose same-sex marriage as a tenet of faith, and their freedom to exercise religion is—unlike the right imagined by the majority—actually spelled out in the Constitution," he writes. "Respect for sincere religious conviction has led voters and legislators in every State that has adopted same-sex marriage democratically to include accommodations for dissenting religious practice." But he says the Supreme Court is too much of a "blunt instrument" to do likewise. [Thus the evangelical argument for "if you can't beat them, amend them."]

"The majority graciously suggests that religious believers may continue to 'advocate' and 'teach' their views of marriage," writes Roberts. "The First Amendment guarantees, however, the freedom to 'exercise' religion. Ominously, that is not a word the majority uses."

 

Regarding how gay rights and religious rights will coexist, the AP noted:

 

 

The AP-GfK poll [in April] found that a slim majority of Americans (52 percent) say that wedding-related businesses should be allowed to refuse service to same-sex couples, but just 40 percent say that businesses more generally should be allowed to do so. Still, most said it's more important for the government to protect religious liberties than the rights of gays and lesbians if the two come into conflict, by a 56 percent to 40 percent margin.

 

I guess the question is, How do we, as a nation, protect the rights of all its citizens? If we have the right to free assembly and exercise, it seems that someone is going to lose out on their rights.

 

Care to discuss your views and how you see this ruling leading us in the future.

I see the religious views being maligned and marginalized in favor of the majority. You can practice/teach your religion in church but you can't exercise it outside of that institution.

 

I'm not seeing the rights of all the citizens represented. Though Thomas in his dissent, did Not call for Christians to shut up - or refrain from opinions.

 

And Scalia in his dissent said Protestants (of any faith) were not represented in making the decision. And only one justice formally from middle America.

 

I have no idea the future and how govt or SCOTUS will continue to back their decision regarding continued rights/pleas of same sex couples. And If same sex couples do in fact, represent the 'majority'.

[pureinheart]

Exactly!! But I like Solemate's Bible passage because it can easily be a parallel for the way conservative Christians who are bullying gay people in the name of Christ, to fit their own personal agenda (be homophobic), rather than what Christianity truly represents.

 

 

FTR, you are taking that scripture out of context by your definition and who are the actual bullies here... I'm seeing bullies on these these threads by their communication.

[writergal]

I'm not seeing the rights of all the citizens represented. Though Thomas in his dissent, did Not call for Christians to shut up - or refrain from opinions.

 

And Scalia in his dissent said Protestants (of any faith) were not represented in making the decision. And only one justice formally from middle America.

 

I have no idea the future and how govt or SCOTUS will continue to back their decision regarding continued rights/pleas of same sex couples. And If same sex couples do in fact, represent the 'majority'.

 

With all due respect, what is it about same-sex couples that you seem to abhor? How do same-sex couples infringe upon your religious beliefs or your civil rights? I'd really like a legitimate answer so that I can try to see your point of view more clearly.

[writergal]

FTR, you are taking that scripture out of context by your definition and who are the actual bullies here... I'm seeing bullies on these these threads by their communication.

 

I could say the same but keeping in line with LoveShack's community guidelines I'll stick to the topic which is the perceived threat against their religious freedoms that the religious conservatives have about SCOTUS approving same-sex marriage.

[pureinheart]

No not really. Maybe the rules are different but Sharia Law is a code of conduct for the faithful derived from holy books. It address topics crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, everyday etiquette and fasting.

 

In some countries the criminal justice, crime and punishments is based on Sharia Law but other countries use secular law. There has been controversy over the differences between Sharia Law and secular law in those countries.

 

So really the only difference is the faith that is being practiced.

 

Big differences and it's sad that I have to point it out. If you are gay under Islam/Sharia Law you will be executed. That's just one matter.

 

Maybe you guys will have to find out first hand, but I hope you don't.

[Keenly]

Big differences and it's sad that I have to point it out. If you are gay under Islam/Sharia Law you will be executed. That's just one matter.

 

Maybe you guys will have to find out first hand, but I hope you don't.

 

Gays being executed by sharia law doesn't mean that gays should be thankful for a second class separate but equal style handout from anti gay supporters. Equality means equal, in all.facets. This includes title of.marriage and all benefits and privileges provided. Anything less is not.equal, and therefore can not be determined constitutional, as the law would apply differently to different people.

 

 

We are a nation of laws, not men. ( or their beliefs)

[pureinheart]

With all due respect, what is it about same-sex couples that you seem to abhor? How do same-sex couples infringe upon your religious beliefs or your civil rights? I'd really like a legitimate answer so that I can try to see your point of view more clearly.

 

This seems to best fit how I feel and possibly UF....

 

 

https://carm.org/homosexual-marriage-affect-me

 

I didn't have a chance to study this article (please don't nail me to the cross for admitting this:p) completely, which I normally do prior to posting... pressed for time and that is a good thing!

[UpwardForward]

With all due respect, what is it about same-sex couples that you seem to abhor? How do same-sex couples infringe upon your religious beliefs or your civil rights? I'd really like a legitimate answer so that I can try to see your point of view more clearly.

 

God made woman for man and told them to marry, reproduce, replenish the earth.

 

In His perfect design, He even made their anatomy different and for the purpose of pleasure and reproduction.

 

Marriage is sacred and it is God's.

 

Imo, Imitation, infringement is mockery. And one that influences or breaks down society, future generations, children' s thought processes, and with the breaking down of the sanctity of the institution of marriage in this situation.

 

Many decisions made in these latter times are destructive, and not of God. Imo, the beginning of which was legalized abortion.

 

Imo, Christians look beyond their immediate world, and how sin affects all.

Edited July 2, 2015 by UpwardForward

[Keenly]

God made woman for man and told them to marry, reproduce, replenish the earth.

 

In His perfect design, He even made their anatomy different and for the purpose of pleasure and reproduction.

 

Marriage is sacred and it is God's.

 

Imo, Imitation, infringement is mockery. And one that influences or breaks down society, future generations, children' s thought processes, and with the breaking down of the sanctity of the institution of marriage in this situation.

 

Many decisions made in these latter times are destructive, and not of God. Imo, the beginning of which was legalized abortion.

 

Imo, Christians look beyond their immediate world, and how sin affects all.

 

If marriage is God's, then why do not religious people have the freedom to get married? Shouldn't they not be allowed to be married if they won't accept god as part of their until?

 

" Christians look to how sin affects all "

 

What gives.you the right to determine what affects whom? Why do your beliefs override my beliefs? Why would you get to make laws that say your belief of religion is more important than my belief of freedom and equal protection under the law?

 

 

Religion can't be used as a means of control or limitation in a country which cites one of its main principles as the separation of church and state.

 

If a new religion was created tomorrow. We will call it unitology (to appease my inner nerd.

 

Let's say in Unitology gains so many supporters so quickly, and becomes the fastest growing religion in the history of the world, and by 2020 the majority united states religion is unitology. Including half of our politicians.

 

 

Now, if the unitologists believed that Christianity was wrong, and that Christians shouldn't have the equality they deserve because the belief system of unitology doesn't support it, do they then have the right to take away your rights?

 

 

The point being, we get it. They are your beliefs. But in the United states of America, your religious beliefs can not, are not, and will not be made into laws unless you can show that they're in the best interest of everyone in the jurisdiction, AND, the single most important qualifier, the law in question does not violate some ones constitutional rights. Including that of equal protection under the law ( this means that you can't apply a law differently to one person than you would another, for snyreaaon. Be it race, gender, sexual orientation, marital status, if they are left or right handed, if they have webbed toes, etc)

 

 

Equal means equa. Not equal according to faith or beliefs, not equal if they agree with you, not equal if they can afford, not equal if they live their lives the way I love mine. It means equal. Period.

[pureinheart]

Gays being executed by sharia law doesn't mean that gays should be thankful for a second class separate but equal style handout from anti gay supporters. Equality means equal, in all.facets. This includes title of.marriage and all benefits and privileges provided. Anything less is not.equal, and therefore can not be determined constitutional, as the law would apply differently to different people.

 

 

We are a nation of laws, not men. ( or their beliefs)

 

You guys throw this 'equal' around as if that is all you have to carry on an appropriate discussion. 'Equal' doesn't happen anywhere and you know it with anything... it is a weak argument for your agenda. Period.

[Keenly]

You guys throw this 'equal' around as if that is all you have to carry on an appropriate discussion. 'Equal' doesn't happen anywhere and you know it with anything... it is a weak argument for your agenda. Period.

 

Equality is a weak argument? Fairness is a weak argument? What?

 

I believe you are undermining your own point of view with a point like that.

[pureinheart]

God made woman for man and told them to marry, reproduce, replenish the earth.

 

In His perfect design, He even made their anatomy different and for the purpose of pleasure and reproduction.

 

Marriage is sacred and it is God's.

 

Imo, Imitation, infringement is mockery. And one that influences or breaks down society, future generations, children' s thought processes, and with the breaking down of the sanctity of the institution of marriage in this situation.

 

Many decisions made in these latter times are destructive, and not of God. Imo, the beginning of which was legalized abortion.

 

Imo, Christians look beyond their immediate world, and how sin affects all.

 

People have no clue concerning how easily the mind can be manipulated. It's an area that few explore. I've seen many instances in my own thought processes and how I condoned things in my life that were uncool and justified them.

 

A good area to take thought processes deeper would be the study of 'propaganda' and the father of propaganda, Edward Bernays. It's quite interesting how the mind can be shaped and how powerful the power of suggestion really is.

 

The other day I was in a bit of a funk reflecting on the rapid deterioration of society, seeing most aspects and how morality has deteriorated also. In talking with a friend, he reminded me of the alcoholic that has to hit rock bottom and that's possibly what needs to happen (and will) in this country... when at the bottom, the only view is up...

[pureinheart]

If marriage is God's, then why do not religious people have the freedom to get married? Shouldn't they not be allowed to be married if they won't accept god as part of their until?

 

" Christians look to how sin affects all "

 

What gives.you the right to determine what affects whom? Why do your beliefs override my beliefs? Why would you get to make laws that say your belief of religion is more important than my belief of freedom and equal protection under the law?

 

 

Why do you? Why do your beliefs get to override mine?

[Keenly]

Why do you? Why do your beliefs get to override mine?

 

I'm still waiting for the answer to how gay marriage ruins your beliefs.

 

 

How does gay marriage prohibit you from believing, practicing, or otherwise exercising your freedom of worship?

 

 

You, as a majority, do not get to determine, dictate, restrict, or otherwise hinder the rights of the minority. It doesn't matter what the issue is about, the rules are still the same.

 

We do not make laws based on religion. Period. End of story.

 

 

However, your side had their chance! You should not be angry at the gays and their "gay agenda," you should be furious with the people who were tasked to present your sides argument to the supreme court. They failed to defend your position. That can only take place if either A) the people assigned to represent your viewpoint were horrible at what they were doing

 

OR

 

B) Your position was legislatively indefensible.

 

 

 

You have many choices. You can move to a different country, several offer opportunities for religious tyranny and mob rule, although I don't think the views of their citizens will align with yours. Option two is just to live your life for yourself and your family, and not worry about what people you don't even know are doing. Option 3 is to involve yourself in the legal process and press your agenda in person, rather than just telling everyone they are wrong.

 

 

 

I honestly imagine this is exactly what the reaction to interracial marriage was like. They were probably so furious, using the same exact biblical arguments. Now we don't even bat an eye.

 

I bet in 30 years, your children, and your children's children won't even bat an eye.