The Buddhism Thread

[Geishawhelk]

First and foremost:

My comments in this thread should not be taken as representative of all Buddhists, or all Buddhist Schools. I am telling you what I have come to know for myself, and I am merely offering the following as a testimony of my understanding and learning. For further insight or information, I actively urge and encourage you to investigate further, to seek and find for yourselves, responses from other Buddhists and represented Schools. This would give you a more concrete, comprehensive and global over-view of questions discussed.

Thank You.

 

Someone in another thread, posed a question asking 'How do Buddhists go to Heaven?'

 

First of all, the concept of an afterlife and a soul residing there, is not something Buddhists subscribe to. There are two forms of 'Returning':

One is Re-Birth (for 'un-enlightened' beings) and one is better known as Reincarnation (for Boddhisattvas - those who are dedicating their lives and merit to always returning to a physical human state until all beings have attained enlightenment and freedom from suffering.) One such well-known reincarnated being is the Dalai Lama, who was recognised at the age of 2, as the "Tulku" (re-manifested incarnation) of his predecessor. He is also the Human manifestation of the Buddha of Infinite Limitless Universal Compassion, Avalokitesvara (or 'Chenrezig', in Tibetan.)

 

Re-birth for unenlightened Mortals is not guaranteed to take place in the Human realm. we might be re-born as an animal. there are different realms of re-birth, and I can touch on this aspect at another time.

 

When Buddhists speak of Nirvana, it is the diametric opposite to Samsara. Samsara is the continuous wheel of compounded existence, sometimes referred to as 'Suffering'. This seems a very negative and depressing term, so a different way to explain it might be 'frustration', 'unsatisfactoriness' or even 'eternal wandering' (The actual Sanskrit translation of Samsara').

Nirvana is " The absence of Desire for worldly gratification". It's not necessarily reaching the point of attaining it, it is rather having come to a the point where you simply want for nothing else. This state might be attainable even whilst the person is still alive. (Death is not a pre-requisite. Death takes one to PARInirvana, where existential rebirth is no longer necessary. )

 

What happens then?

This is one of the Four Imponderables the Buddha advised us, as followers of the Path, to leave alone.

 

The first was:

 

"What is it like to be Enlightened?" (If you're not, it's unimaginable. if you are, it's irrelevant....)

"What happens to an Enlightened being in Deep meditation?" (Refer to question one....)

"What are the complex Laws of Karma?" (You can't ever begin to unravel everything about it, so just deal with your own!)

"What of Creation? Who - or What - brought us here? " (It's impossible to know such things, and even if you were to know, what good would it serve you here and now? Just concentrate on the Here and Now, that's what matters most.)

 

 

There are four subjects not fit for speculative thought (Acinteyyani). They are

the specific qualities of a Buddha (Buddhavisayo);

 

a person's jhana attainment;

 

the results of Kamma; and

 

the nature of the world (loka cinta).

[These imponderables are not to be pondered upon; which, if pondered upon; would lend one to mental distress and insanity. (para 77)

 

From here:

 

So Buddhists don't think - or try - to get to Heaven. We strive for a comparable state in the Present, rather than pin our hopes on a Future, post-death arrangement.... Incidentally, not all Buddhists can wrap their heads around the concept of Re-Birth/Reincarnation, either. So, guess what? they just adopt a 'wait and see' attitude, striving all the while to keep it good.

[Topper]

Thanks, The philosophy behind buddhism makes a lot of sense to me. Might have to go get a Buddhist for Dummies book do a little more home wok on the subject.

Were you raised Buddist or is this something you found on lifes path?

[Geishawhelk]

hello Topper, and thank you, I'm glad it interested you.

No, I was raised for the greater part of my life as a Roman Catholic. in fact, to give you a potted history, my family is Italian, I was baptised, had First Holy Communion and was confirmed, I attended a convent, and eventually married in a Catholic church with the full Nuptual mass. I also became a school Governor in a Catholic primary school, and worked with a Catholic/Christian organisation called 'Marriage Care' as a counsellor and workshop co-ordinator.

This is just by way of illustrating just how deeply involved I was with the Catholic Church.

 

About 15 years ago, I took an interest in an oriental therapy, called Shiatsu, and was introduced to Qi Gong (like Tai Chi but even slower!) and to meditation. One of my tutors was Buddhist, and I began to find profound logic and reasoning in discussions I had with him. Sometimes these took place in class, and the teaching schedule went out of the window, but it was all to the good!

Then, my mother (of all people...) gave me a book one day that I remain convinced had been written entirely and exclusively for me, and was just waiting for me to read it! (yeh, right....!) It was "The Tibetan Book of Living and dying" ( By Sogyal Rinpoche) and it just blew me away!

There was no contradiction or dismissal of other creeds and faiths. just an extraordinary, deep understanding - and clarification - of matters which trouble most of us.

 

About 6 years ago, I officially took Refuge and committed myself to following a Buddhist path. I have never regretted it, questioned it or ever looked back.

Truth be told, even as a youngster with an impressionable mind, I kept asking questions of Catholicsm as a faith which never gave me the answers I sought.

 

I have never encountered hostility, negativity, resistance or resentment from anyone within my circle, and in fact, some relationships have deepened as a result of my own choice to divert my route.

 

If you'd like to know anything else, I'd be very happy to answer as honestly as I can.

With metta and karuna,

Namaste.

[dropdeadlegs]

Thank you for the informative post covering the "basics" of Buddhism.

 

Since 9/11 I have struggled and questioned my own belief system (Liberal Christian Protestant) and even wonder if I need one at all. I go on these mini quests, usually lasting a few weeks to two months, then the subject goes on the back burner for awhile, but these "missions" are coming more frequently now. I would love the opportunity to concentrate on this and find the answers I need. If only the world would stop for a few months, I could do this.

 

The Dalia Lame is of particular interest to me because he is so happy and at peace, and isn't that what we are all trying to achieve?

 

I will definitely read the book you mentioned. I think it is important for me to have some understanding of the various religions of the world. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[Moai]

Thanks for the great information!

 

I too gravitate toward Buddhism. If I were to pick a religion, that would be the one I'd go with. And I do walk around with some Buddhist teachings in my head. I didn't know that's what they were when I thought of them, but it turns out that's what they are.

 

I will do some reading and come back with some questions, if that's ok.

 

I look forward to seeing this thread develop.

[Geishawhelk]

Thank you both for such positive feedback. I must emphasise that what I say (where specific teachings are NOT concerned - I will always back up with references) is stuff that I have come to know for myself. There is no aspect in Buddhism that requests you put your faith in something unseen, or not fully explainable. The Buddha himself often exorted people to "Ehi Passiko" - to "Come and see for yourself". That is, to by all means listen, absorb and cogitate on what you see, hear and learn, but do not accept it or live by it unless you have tested it for yourself first.

 

The dalai lama's own policy is to say that his Religion is Kindness.

However, you may come to know and find that in Buddhism, it is actively encouyraged that you come to terms with yourself, be at peace with yourself, accept yourself and love yourself before you can wholly focus on doing this for others. This is not a selfish proposal, because unless we can truly be as compassionate and loving towards ourselves as we are towards others, then our Love and Compassion is not complete. It's like fixing the oxygen mask in a plane before we help others.....

[dropdeadlegs]

I am more intrigued than ever.

 

I know very little about Buddhism, but the idea that the religion is defined as kindness, versus blind faith in some unseen force, appeals to me.

 

It seems more of a "way of life" than the dogma I have been exposed to since childhood.

 

"Come see for yourself" is more inviting than the "our truth is the only truth" offered by many religious leaders.

[Geishawhelk]

Ok, well, I'm going to start a new thread on "The Buddhist basics"...

 

If anyone has any objections, if I am assuming too much, overstepping the mark or taking liberties, please be sure to alert me.

If you feel even that you'd need to notify a moderator, please act upon your instincts.

as I have said, my intention is not to preach, but to show what I have learnt, that you might have a preliminary taster....

 

With Metta.

me.

[dropdeadlegs]

You are welcome to start a new thread or continue on this one. There would be no repercussions or complaints. Religion is discussed pretty frequently here. At least Christianity is, and there is PLENTY of what I consider "heavy preaching" on many of those threads! Lots of scripture quoting. Sharing your beliefs on LS is fine and accepted from what I have seen.

 

I, for one, look forward to every lesson.

[Quinch]

I can also recommend The Art of Happiness by HH The Dalai Lama and Howard C Cutler. It's an excellent introduction for anyone who wishes to know a bit more about Buddhism.

[ruby_gloom]

Very interesting. I'll keep reading.

 

I know the basics of Buddhism, and I think its teachings are a great way to live your life by.

 

For a while, I really gravitated towards Buddhism because I aggreed with many of its ideals reagarding morality and spirituality. Unfortunately, I was abruptly stopped when I realized that Buddhism does not believe in the Soul, which I steadfastly do.

 

I have heard from a friend that there really is no way to circumvent that notion, and thus I was not able to fully embrace the teachings as I would have liked (I wanted to be Buddhist for a while.).

 

I still adhere to many of its teachings and principles, but I'm afraid I will never be able to live it entirely because of that seemingly grave contradiction of belief.

 

Either way, what you've said thus far has been really insightful. Cool. Thanks.

[Quinch]

There is no 'soul' as taught in Christianity but the conscience does continue. It's not an easy concept (many buddhists don't quite grasp it either) but, if it helps, think of it as a continuing cycle of change from life, death and rebirth which only ends once you achieve Nirvana or freedom from suffering.

[ruby_gloom]

Ah, thanks. And yea, I do understand that.

 

The way I like to think about the conscience and Nirvana is this:

 

Our conscience is like a small droplet of water. We continue in this form throughout our lives, perhaps expanding a bit more as we learn. The ultimate goal for us is to reach Nirvana, where we will attain freedom and enlightenment. Once we manage to reach Nirvana, our conscience--the drop of water--falls into a huge endless ocean, merging with it; our small amount of 'knowledge' becomes entwined with all of the truths, and we can finally understand. We go from being a drop of water to an infinite body of water; from the mundane to the divine.

 

That's how I understand it, anyway. The gripe I have is more with the (non?) exsitance of Soul because to me the Soul and conscience are two different things.

[Geishawhelk]

Ruby-Gloom.... Look upon it as an "imponderable"... there is actually no way in this life (or even the next!) that anyone can answer this question to a fully satisfactory end. And that's ok. Mysteries exist, and more power to them! without them, how dull life would be - we'd have all the answers, and there would be a boring existence indeed.

 

As the Buddha said, lay it aside for now. if you have no answer, that's fine. It doesn't matter. Ther are so many realms of unexplorable ideas, that we'd go mad if we tackled them.

 

I'm not trying to convince you to take up Buddhism as a calling. I'm merely advising you go easy on yourself....

 

With much metta, G.

[amerikajin]

Reincarnation? I've wondered how it would work. Does a Buddhist believe that a "soul" travels from body to body?

[Geishawhelk]

No, we don't. At least, we don't refer to it as a soul, because the cxurrent, modern Deistic image of a soul, is almost an ephemeral image, carbon copy of who you are now, just without all the 'bad' bits...

 

let me see if i can kind of simplify what I'm trying to say here....

 

Please lay aside all the psychological and traumatic effects this might have on a person...I'm merely using the following to try to demonstrate something.... it's merely an example, or 'visualisation' if you like.

 

Let's look at "The weakest Link" or "Who wants to be a millionaire?"

 

"Hi, I am Jerry, I come from streatham, I'm married, I have two children and I'm a quality control director for a double-glazing firm."

 

So now you know who that person is, right?

 

Wrong.

 

What you know is, that in order to distinguish him from the next man, he has been given a name - Jerry.

You know where he lives, and you know he has a spouse and family, and you know what he does for a living.

 

But all these definitions are labels. They tell us what he does, but they are not Who he is.....

 

If I remove your arms, does that make you any less the person you are? No. You're still you.

 

Strip everything away, and you are left with a consciousness... a composite of feelings, emotions, reactions, thoughts...... an essence of an energy which is untouchable, ephemeral but extremely powerful. It's this consciousness, this powerful, creative, malleable energy, that is really WHO YOU ARE......

 

And at the time of death, when all your physical self falls away, this consciousness, this extraordinary Energy.... what happens to it....?

 

It transforms...it dissipates...it re-manifests elsewhere.

Remember:

Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed. That's a scientific fact, it's a physics equasion.

And if you want to tell me that what I have described is not an energy, tell me then how we can tell there has been an argument in a room, because we can 'cut the atmosphere with a knife' or we can view a house we want to buy, but we have a feeling that there's something just not right about it, or how someone carving us up whilst driving, can ruin our whole day...even though we don't know them, have never spoken to them, and may actually never see them again....?

Oh yes, it's an energy all right...and it's there, in us, of us, with us, ready for us to transform, control and master.....

 

When you die, it goes....well, somewhere.... it enters another form of life.....

 

Now, it could be an animal, it could be another human....we don't know. As unenlightened beings, we do our best to engineer a favourable re-birth, and by accumulating merit through practise, Wisdom, Compassion and Unconditional Love, we might just do it.....

 

Take a candle.

Light it.

Now take a second candle.

Light it from the first.

Blow the first flame out.

This second flame.....

....Is it the same as the first, or different....?

 

 

That's re-birth.

 

Reincarnation is brought about by those who have advanced enough along the path to be able to engineer their own rebith. as I stated earlier, The Dalai Lama is one such being.

 

..is that any help, or is that just as clear as mud....?

[boshemia]

Let's look at "The weakest Link" or "Who wants to be a millionaire?"

 

"Hi, I am Jerry, I come from streatham, I'm married, I have two children and I'm a quality control director for a double-glazing firm."

 

So now you know who that person is, right?

 

Wrong.

 

What you know is, that in order to distinguish him from the next man, he has been given a name - Jerry.

You know where he lives, and you know he has a spouse and family, and you know what he does for a living.

 

But all these definitions are labels. They tell us what he does, but they are not Who he is.....

 

Yes, yes, Yes... I love this conversation : )

[dropdeadlegs]

So, Buddhist tenets and quantum physics actually go hand in hand?

 

Another score for Buddhism!

[Geishawhelk]

So, Buddhist tenets and quantum physics actually go hand in hand?

 

Another score for Buddhism!

 

yes. in fact shakyamuni Buddha means "I have a degree and a Ph.D in Science and I'm not afraid to use it!" (J/K!)

[lonelybird]

Re-birth for unenlightened Mortals is not guaranteed to take place in the Human realm. we might be re-born as an animal. there are different realms of re-birth, and I can touch on this aspect at another time.

.

so my dog can be a handsome man who did bad things last life?

or female frog can be a woman last life......

[amerikajin]

Strip everything away, and you are left with a consciousness... a composite of feelings, emotions, reactions, thoughts...... an essence of an energy which is untouchable, ephemeral but extremely powerful. It's this consciousness, this powerful, creative, malleable energy, that is really WHO YOU ARE......

 

And at the time of death, when all your physical self falls away, this consciousness, this extraordinary Energy.... what happens to it....?

 

It transforms...it dissipates...it re-manifests elsewhere.

Remember:

Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed. That's a scientific fact, it's a physics equasion.

And if you want to tell me that what I have described is not an energy, tell me then how we can tell there has been an argument in a room, because we can 'cut the atmosphere with a knife' or we can view a house we want to buy, but we have a feeling that there's something just not right about it, or how someone carving us up whilst driving, can ruin our whole day...even though we don't know them, have never spoken to them, and may actually never see them again....?

Oh yes, it's an energy all right...and it's there, in us, of us, with us, ready for us to transform, control and master.....

 

When you die, it goes....well, somewhere.... it enters another form of life.....

 

Now, it could be an animal, it could be another human....we don't know. As unenlightened beings, we do our best to engineer a favourable re-birth, and by accumulating merit through practise, Wisdom, Compassion and Unconditional Love, we might just do it.....

 

Take a candle.

Light it.

Now take a second candle.

Light it from the first.

Blow the first flame out.

This second flame.....

....Is it the same as the first, or different....?

 

 

That's re-birth.

 

Reincarnation is brought about by those who have advanced enough along the path to be able to engineer their own rebith. as I stated earlier, The Dalai Lama is one such being.

 

..is that any help, or is that just as clear as mud....?

 

That's kinda what I was thinking myself, but I just wanted to be sure. You see elements of this in other religions as well. Some of the Jews I talked to have said that as long as someone around you remembers you, you're alive -- I've always felt that's true. But even further, I think that we are like the candle you described: we are constantly lighting other flames. We are constantly sharing ourselves with others, and others are sharing themselves with us. The first flame is different from the second, but yet it's the same.

 

I am still not 100 percent sure what I believe, but I think my beliefs are probably similar to those of Buddhists and also the Native Americans, particularly those in the Southwest U.S. I'm reading Carlos Castaneda right now, and it's really interesting stuff.

[Geishawhelk]

Buddhism as such, doesn't have 'beliefs'...That's why I find it so refreshing....

 

Simple belief, as an aspect of Buddhism, doesn't apply, because 'belief' seems to imply that there is something unknown into which you must buy, or accept.

 

Whilst I truly have the greatest respect for those who imerge themselves into a Deistic faith (and who am I to tell them unequivocally that they are WRONG?) I personally cannot accept the assertion that there is an unseen God who ultimately will accept us according to 'His' judgement.

 

However, if by belief, with regard to Buddhism, you mean opinion, or tried and tested logic, then I see what you mean!

[lonelybird]

I found your posts are hilarious, don't know why, sorry

[lonelybird]

Buddhism as such, doesn't have 'beliefs'...That's why I find it so refreshing....

 

Simple belief, as an aspect of Buddhism, doesn't apply, because 'belief' seems to imply that there is something unknown into which you must buy, or accept.

 

Whilst I truly have the greatest respect for those who imerge themselves into a Deistic faith (and who am I to tell them unequivocally that they are WRONG?) I personally cannot accept the assertion that there is an unseen God who ultimately will accept us according to 'His' judgement.

 

However, if by belief, with regard to Buddhism, you mean opinion, or tried and tested logic, then I see what you mean!

I think God is trustworthy and faithful, much much much trustworthy than a man

[Geishawhelk]

I found your posts are hilarious, don't know why, sorry

 

That's fine! if they make you laugh, I am pleased they add to your mirth! may you always be happy in this way.

 

With metta,

 

G.