Forgiveness

[Confused48]

I really struggle with this with respect to the affair in my life. It makes sense to me that if I could forgive, I myself would feel better. I don't. I want justice especially, for the MAP. I can't help it. I doubt I will get anything close to justice so I suffer, wanting what I will never have.

 

I heard a news story about the family members of people killed at that church in South Carolina. Some of them say they forgive the racist shooter. Then I heard one of them interviewed saying, "Forgiveness is not ignoring the facts. I still want justice."

 

So my question is, is there some kind of forgiveness I don't understand where you get the benefits of both forgiveness and justice? Seems like you have to pick one or the other.

[minimariah]

So my question is, is there some kind of forgiveness I don't understand where you get the benefits of both forgiveness and justice? Seems like you have to pick one or the other.

 

i don't think you have to forgive in order to move on.

not forgiving =\= walking around angry and toxic.

 

sometimes you forget and you accept what happened for what it was and you move on. but you don't really forgive. and you don't really have to, it doesn't mean that you WON'T move on or live a better life.

 

i personally don't need forgiveness at all. i don't need to forgive and there are folks in my life who did me wrong, who will never gain my forgiveness and that is just fine. it doesn't make me better or sad or angry. i just accepted it as something i cannot change and moved on with my life.

 

now, if you keep the person that hurt you in your life? then you need forgiveness, yes. justice... i think that's the one thing that prevent folks from truly moving on. there is no justice in love, at all.

 

justice in murder, criminal system...? sure. justice in love? nah.

 

the only justice you can get is walking away and leaving those people behind.

[autumnnight]

For some reason unknown to me, some idiot years ago connected the words forgive and forget. Forget is impossible, and those 2 words need to be disconnected. And you are right - forgiveness doesn't cancel out the need for justice/consequences either, as in the shooting.

 

To me, forgiveness means, "I am not longer going to carry this around. I am no longer going to hold this over you, even though it was wrong."

 

I forgive the man who attacked me as an adolescent. I would never voluntarily be in the same room with him, though. I might forgive the person who breaks into my home. I will not hesitate to call the police, however.

[BetrayedH]

Tough subject. Lots of varying opinions. Personally, I don't think forgiveness is something you give yourself. I get the idea that it's relieving but I don't think that really has anything to do with forgiving the other person.

 

I tend to think that the better goal is to strive for acceptance. There's no time machine. There's no erasing it. There's no forgetting it. There may be no forgiving it, if they don't deserve it. There's no closure. And you'll probably never understand it. I think if you can accept those things and move on with your life, you're doing better than many.

 

There's a decent book on this. "How Can I Forgive You?" I want to say the author is Janice Springs but I might be a little off on the name. Interestingly enough, the book is far more about acceptance than forgiveness.

[merrmeade]

I really struggle with this with respect to the affair in my life. It makes sense to me that if I could forgive, I myself would feel better. I don't. I want justice especially, for the MAP. I can't help it. I doubt I will get anything close to justice so I suffer, wanting what I will never have.

 

I heard a news story about the family members of people killed at that church in South Carolina. Some of them say they forgive the racist shooter. Then I heard one of them interviewed saying, "Forgiveness is not ignoring the facts. I still want justice."

 

So my question is, is there some kind of forgiveness I don't understand where you get the benefits of both forgiveness and justice? Seems like you have to pick one or the other.

Justice to me was seeing that my WH understood and felt every bit of the awfulness of what he did. In my case, there was so much more that came out for a couple of years that I would never have known, walking away right after d-day. So the need for "justice" grows with what I learn and understand about what he did, including the deception. It's never enough for me to understand; I need to make him understand.

 

He's willing to do this with me even though it's hard for both of us. So as I see him coming atounf and feel genuinely convinced he's realizing all the sh-t, that becomes forgiveness and I can leave it.

 

The betrayal strikes at so many aspects of the relationship and the partner. It's not just the adultery. It's all the things that the WS did and ways s/he was to allow the A. The BS ceased to be important and so ceased to exist except as someone to deceive and manipulate during the A. From there, a whole change takes place in the relationship that must be righted. Justice to me is exposing all of that.

[RightThere]

Some of them say they forgive the racist shooter. Then I heard one of them interviewed saying, "Forgiveness is not ignoring the facts. I still want justice."

 

So my question is, is there some kind of forgiveness I don't understand where you get the benefits of both forgiveness and justice? Seems like you have to pick one or the other.

 

Forgiveness is not allowing those who wronged you to hold any more power over you anymore. Justice is totally seperate. If you are thinking you'll be able to forgive once they have suffered through justice, then you're chasing false hope. You're just holding a grudge.

 

And holding a grudge is akin to drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.

[VeryBrokenMan]

I saw that same news clip and I had the same reaction. Here are these people that have lost loved ones and they are forgiving within a short time. They understand that forgiving allows them to heal.

 

Forgiving is completely for you and has nothing to do with the person that wronged you. You can forgive and still divorce the WS or hold them accountable. By not forgiving you are locking yourself into that dark pain filled place of hate and bitterness. Life is too short for me to live in the hole.

 

I'm not totally there yet but forgiving has allowed me to heal. Justice is a separate issue and in my view there is no justice after an affair. The only justice is going on with your life, happy and content, and not letting their horrible choices destroy the rest of your life. In my view, if you let the affair eat at you and live in misery that is letting the OM/OW win.

 

I did not believe my IC when she told me I had to forgive my wife to heal myself. It is very counter intuitive, but once I started working on forgiving her I felt better. There is a great book that helped me a lot in this area called How Can I Forgive You?: The Courage To Forgive, the Freedom Not To. Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060009306

[Elias33]

Forgiveness is not allowing those who wronged you to hold any more power over you anymore. Justice is totally seperate. If you are thinking you'll be able to forgive once they have suffered through justice, then you're chasing false hope. You're just holding a grudge.

 

And holding a grudge is akin to drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.

 

Agreed. No matter how angry you get, the other person will never feel that, it is you who only feels that anger, it doesn't change the other person.

 

Anger may motivate, fuel, and drive a person, but it is not a sustainable resource...

[oldshirt]

 

To me, forgiveness means, "I am not longer going to carry this around. I am no longer going to hold this over you, even though it was wrong."

 

I forgive the man who attacked me as an adolescent. I would never voluntarily be in the same room with him, though. I might forgive the person who breaks into my home. I will not hesitate to call the police, however.

 

I think using the example of someone breaking into your home and stealing/damaging/violating things is a very valid analogy for someone screwing your spouse.

 

If you caught someone breaking into your home redhanded, you are justified in doing whatever you need to do to protect hour home and family.

 

You are then justified in calling the police, giving statements and testifying at their trial.

 

You are also justified in shoring up the locks and security measures of your house.

 

That is taking care of business and supporting justice.

 

Forgiveness is going on about your regular business again after taking care of the incident.

[Confused48]

Thanks to everyone that posted. I did read the book. It didn't take, lol. Maybe I will read it again.

 

I wanted to clarify in response to this:

 

now, if you keep the person that hurt you in your life? then you need forgiveness, yes. justice... i think that's the one thing that prevent folks from truly moving on. there is no justice in love, at all.

 

justice in murder, criminal system...? sure. justice in love? nah.

 

the only justice you can get is walking away and leaving those people behind.

 

I do for the most part forgive my WS. Right on Dday. Even though my Dday was, in its details, quite exceptionally bad. Still, on that day, as I saw the pain and horror on WS's face, I instantly forgave, to a point. WS would say not enough.

 

It is the AP that I still harbor serious thoughts of malice towards. I do think there are ways to bring some measure of justice to the AP.

 

Point taken though that even if I did bring justice to the AP, it would not take away my pain. Still, I want it.

 

To those that forgave their WS or recommend that, do you then, at some point, treat them as if the A never happened? Not forget the past but act as if you forgot?

[katielee]

Took it off he table. Will let God handle it.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Thanks to everyone that posted. I did read the book. It didn't take, lol. Maybe I will read it again.

 

I wanted to clarify in response to this:

 

 

 

I do for the most part forgive my WS. Right on Dday. Even though my Dday was, in its details, quite exceptionally bad. Still, on that day, as I saw the pain and horror on WS's face, I instantly forgave, to a point. WS would say not enough.

 

It is the AP that I still harbor serious thoughts of malice towards. I do think there are ways to bring some measure of justice to the AP.

 

Point taken though that even if I did bring justice to the AP, it would not take away my pain. Still, I want it.

 

To those that forgave their WS or recommend that, do you then, at some point, treat them as if the A never happened? Not forget the past but act as if you forgot?

 

Forgiveness is more of a process than a one-time decision. For years my decision to forgive my WW was a daily decision. There were days that I didn't forgive her, but the next day I would.

 

Now 7 years past D-day I have forgiven my wife. It is no longer something that I have to think about. She has paid her penance over the years. The AP is different story. I still entertain the idea of justice for the OM. At the time of the affair he was single. Basically he got away with it scot-free. If I can maintain a level of apathy towards him, then that is good enough for now. I still find myself reframing how I view the OM.

 

Do I treat her like the A never happened? Not sure what you are asking. Do I look at her and think "cheater"? I'm sure I did, but don't know for how long. (There was a period I couldn't watch her undress.) Now the A doesn't define who she is. She is such a different person (better in every way) than her old self. I can't forget what she did. With media and such you can't go through a day without some kind of reminder. It doesn't get me down or linger like it used to. It pops in my head and most of the time it quickly vanishes.

 

For me I had to compartmentalize our marriage into 2 split marriages. Marriage 1 and Marriage 2. I consider Marriage 1 as a complete failure because of WW. Marriage 2 is from D-Day forward.

 

I have removed all mementos of Marriage 1. No wedding pics or other pics from Marriage 1. I don't wear a ring anymore. Our anniversary is strictly associated with Marriage 2, not our wedding day. It helped that we moved to another state soon after the A ended. I probably view Marriage 1 (and Wife 1) like someone who is divorced and has been remarried for many years.

 

I (we) live in the present 99.9% of the time. I say 99.9% because I allow my self to have a bad moment (or day) every once in awhile. I can now sit and think about the A for an extended period of time and not have it wear on me emotionally. I guess that is what "Acceptance" does for you.

 

For my mental health I regularly participate in various endurance activities throughout the week. That has been my outlet for many years.

[jnel921]

Forgiveness is letting go and letting god. It is a form of acceptance.

 

If you let other emotions like hate and anger take hold of your mind and your heart then forgiveness is impossible.

 

Let it go and let your WS win your love and respect back if they are truly remorseful.

[merrmeade]

"Forgiveness is not ignoring the facts. I still want justice."

 

So my question is, is there some kind of forgiveness I don't understand where you get the benefits of both forgiveness and justice? Seems like you have to pick one or the other.

I think you're right. Guess I don't really care about forgiveness. But with this version of justice I need — acknowledging (tenderly) — forgiveness is incidental. I suppose he wants it and for that reason participates.

[Hardgrind]

Confused,

 

 

The topic of forgiveness comes up with some regularity on this forum and folks have a pretty wide range of opinions on the topic. I am going to give you my opinion based on my experience.

 

 

In my case I discovered my WW was cheating on me almost two years ago. Today we are within days of finalizing the divorce. I have also struggled with the concept of forgiveness and have a dear friend who has been very helpful in getting my head back on straight by helping me see things for what they really are, not what I wanted them to be.

 

 

IMO forgiveness can help you move on. It doesn't mean what the other person did is okay or is forgotten. It is a path that allows you to let go of the pain and the obsession with a past that was, not what it could have or should have been.

 

 

In my case step one was accepting that what I wanted (for my STBX to be an honest person who had stopped lying to me) was not what really was (my STBX was getting better at lying, was continuing the affair and was treating me as her backup plan). Step two was removing myself from a situation in which I was continuing to be hurt on a daily basis. We separated almost a year ago. Step three was forgiving. In my case the forgiving was a gift to myself because it ended the pain and suffering for me. It helped me. It did not help my STBX but that was not the purpose.

 

 

By forgiving her, my STBX no longer has the ability to hurt me. Today I only think of her if she initiates the conversation through phone calls or texts. It no longer bothers me when she talks about the OM and his family. I don't hate her. If anything I pity her because she is now dealing with the consequences of her actions. I actually feel sorry for the OM for having to deal with her.

 

 

My life is so much better today than I would have ever believed was possible just a year ago.

 

 

The question came up about can you forgive and still get justice. Yes in a sense. But the reality is you will only worry about justice for yourself. You will stop wanting bad things to happen to the ex, although they probably will. But you need to disconnect from them. Forgiveness can lead to good things happening to you if you let them. If bad things happen to the ex, it will be because of their actions, not because of anything you will do.

[TrustedthenBusted]

I really struggle with this with respect to the affair in my life.

 

 

We've all screwed someone over in the past. Maybe not THIS hard...but we've all done it. We've been selfish, stupid, ignorant, uncaring of someone else's feelings etc, and we have all asked for forgiveness.

 

What does that mean?

 

Well, to me, it means thinking about how I want to be treated by the people I've wronged, and sincerely apologized to, and then treating my wife like that.

 

I will never forget what she did, just like nobody I've ever hurt has forgotten I did that. But they have agreed to give me another chance, and treat me with kindness.

 

if we give our spouses another chance, that doesn't erase the pain, or the memories, but it does require that we do the work to treat them with kindness, or let them go.

 

 

The same way they wanted to have their cake and eat it too...I sometimes think we want to keep our WS's, but constantly remind them of the pain they caused.

 

And that is just as selfish.

[badkarma2013]

We've all screwed someone over in the past. Maybe not THIS hard...but we've all done it. We've been selfish, stupid, ignorant, uncaring of someone else's feelings etc, and we have all asked for forgiveness.

 

What does that mean?

 

Well, to me, it means thinking about how I want to be treated by the people I've wronged, and sincerely apologized to, and then treating my wife like that.

 

I will never forget what she did, just like nobody I've ever hurt has forgotten I did that. But they have agreed to give me another chance, and treat me with kindness.

 

if we give our spouses another chance, that doesn't erase the pain, or the memories, but it does require that we do the work to treat them with kindness, or let them go.

 

 

The same way they wanted to have their cake and eat it too...I sometimes think we want to keep our WS's, but constantly remind them of the pain they caused.

 

And that is just as selfish.

****************************************************************

 

I agree most (and i will speak for BHs,as i am one)...Most men after D-day,want to stay with their WWs...But in their heart they KNOW they will never let her A go...About 70% of BHs stay..but within 3 yrs + 85%

of that 70% file for divorce because they cannot let it go and over the pain that it has caused...The caveat here is THey KNOW when they stay,they will never over it..

 

Justice...I got my own form justice...I sued their company..(they were fired)...I outed him to his wife and she destroyed him in the D..I outed my wife to her family with pics the OM gave me of them having sex...( at her families request)...None will speak to her to this day...

 

I Napalmed everyone and everything associated with my EXWWs Affair..My EXWW said to me at the end "There is nothing left but ashes." for once I agreed with her...

 

Never confuse forgiveness with reconciliation...For They are NOT the same thing...badkarma2013

Edited July 3, 2015 by badkarma2013
addition

[understand50]

Never confuse forgiveness with reconciliation...For They are NOT the same thing...badkarma2013

 

Forgiveness is many things, and it is different for each person giving it. In my case, it was not divorcing her after her financial infidelity, and then working on reconciliation with her. For her ONS, it was not holding it against her when other problems or issues came up during the marriage.

 

As I have said, forgiving does not mean, or will ever mean, forgetting. Forgive and forget, just does not happen. My wife cheated early in our relationship, I was aware, going forward, that it could happen again. We were both "on Guard for it" I am fairly sure she has been faithful, or as sure as any husband can be, she as well for me. As for the finical damage, I forgave her as well, but as I am still paying for everything, and have not been able to retire, forgetting is not going to happen.

 

Reconciliation is a hard thing, on one hand you must forgive and give the WS space to live with you with out being mad and angry 24/7, but as the pain will lessen, it never really goes away. This creates a imbalance in the marriage, relationship, as one side has transgressed, and caused much pain, while the WS, is left knowing that the badly hurt the person they love, or loved. I have heard drug addicts, alcoholics discuss the same thing, when they are sober. They talk about the pain, hurt and destruction to family and loved ones. By forgiving my wife, I was stating that I was going to not hold her actions against her, but that we would work on the whatever lead to her doing what she did. The ONS, was hers completely, and she maintained being faithful and open going forward. The financial infidelity, was hers as well, but there were things I was not doing that contributed, so we both had things to work on, her more so.

 

So, what is forgiveness? For me, and everyone is different, it was setting aside the anger towards her, and letting her work on herself to make amends to me, and then accepting that she had changed and has remorse for hurting me. I accepted this, when there was concrete evidence that it had happened. It it had not happened we would have divorced, or from her ONS, never gotten married.

[Noirek]

I think people take the expression forgive and forget too literally. It doesn't mean you get a labotomy and no human can forget a hard betrayal. It means slowly the incident recedes from your foremost thought. It isn't the first thing you think of. Different personalities react different ways. If you're a very "me" focused person you will often have a hard time letting go of things. And this can be good for self preservation. Or it can drag you down.

[badkarma2013]

Never confuse forgiveness with reconciliation...For They are NOT the same thing...badkarma2013

 

Forgiveness is many things, and it is different for each person giving it. In my case, it was not divorcing her after her financial infidelity, and then working on reconciliation with her. For her ONS, it was not holding it against her when other problems or issues came up during the marriage.

 

As I have said, forgiving does not mean, or will ever mean, forgetting. Forgive and forget, just does not happen. My wife cheated early in our relationship, I was aware, going forward, that it could happen again. We were both "on Guard for it" I am fairly sure she has been faithful, or as sure as any husband can be, she as well for me. As for the finical damage, I forgave her as well, but as I am still paying for everything, and have not been able to retire, forgetting is not going to happen.

 

Reconciliation is a hard thing, on one hand you must forgive and give the WS space to live with you with out being mad and angry 24/7, but as the pain will lessen, it never really goes away. This creates a imbalance in the marriage, relationship, as one side has transgressed, and caused much pain, while the WS, is left knowing that the badly hurt the person they love, or loved. I have heard drug addicts, alcoholics discuss the same thing, when they are sober. They talk about the pain, hurt and destruction to family and loved ones. By forgiving my wife, I was stating that I was going to not hold her actions against her, but that we would work on the whatever lead to her doing what she did. The ONS, was hers completely, and she maintained being faithful and open going forward. The financial infidelity, was hers as well, but there were things I was not doing that contributed, so we both had things to work on, her more so.

 

So, what is forgiveness? For me, and everyone is different, it was setting aside the anger towards her, and letting her work on herself to make amends to me, and then accepting that she had changed and has remorse for hurting me. I accepted this, when there was concrete evidence that it had happened. It it had not happened we would have divorced, or from her ONS, never gotten married.

*****************************************************************

 

I agree forgiveness is very different for most people...But everyone and I mean everyone..has A Dealbreaker and mine is infidelity...you chose another path and that is fine...if you can live with her after the deceit ,lies and

betrayal..great....I could not and would not ...I am not nor will i ever be someones Plan B...

 

Forgiveness is for you and me and I have forgiven my EXWW...But I will Never reconcile with her or anyone else who betrays me....

 

All religions of the world we all must forgive those who have wronged us...BUT NONE state i must or should attempt to reconcile on any level....

 

You may wrong me and i forgive you...but i do not want to see you on any level after that...badkarma2013

[autumnnight]

I believe true forgiveness is evidenced in our attitude and conduct. That does not mean reconciliation every time. But IF someone reconciles with a repentant WS and 5 years later when they disagree about a vacation, the A becomes a card to play....that is not forgiveness. A person could file for divorce the day after D-Day, but if they can co-parent like adults and they do not 5 years later turn red at the mention of their ex....that IS forgiveness.

 

To me, forgiveness is neither a statement we make nor an event. It is a process. But there comes a time when there is actually EVIDENCE of that process.

 

I know a BH who is basically still with his wife a decade or more later so that SHE can never move on. He will not allow her to meet any of his needs. And he still keeps tabs on the OM so that he can sabotage anything good that might approach the OM. In other words, over a decade later, if he finds out the OM is dating someone, he contacts her to let her know what the OM did.

 

Not only is that not forgiveness, that is basically mentally ill.

 

Forgiveness does not always mean reconciliation. But if someone is still in knots years and years later - married or divorced, there's been no forgiveness.

[understand50]

*****************************************************************

 

I agree forgiveness is very different for most people...But everyone and I mean everyone..has A Dealbreaker and mine is infidelity...you chose another path and that is fine...if you can live with her after the deceit ,lies and

betrayal..great....I could not and would not ...I am not nor will i ever be someones Plan B...

 

Forgiveness is for you and me and I have forgiven my EXWW...But I will Never reconcile with her or anyone else who betrays me....

 

All religions of the world we all must forgive those who have wronged us...BUT NONE state i must or should attempt to reconcile on any level....

 

You may wrong me and i forgive you...but i do not want to see you on any level after that...badkarma2013

 

I will say, that knowing your story, I would have not reconciled, and I would have devorced.

 

In my case, her ONS, happened very early, and she came clean with me the next day. Asked me to visit her, so she could tell me and let me tell her off in person. I was 17, first love, I was getting sex each weekend, and I did not want to go back and have everyone proved right , that I could not "keep" her. Shallow, but remember my age 17, her age 19. We were able to build something when we moved in together. If she had cheated then? Do not think we would have stayed together. As for the financial issues, consitered divorce, but still loved her, and it made more financal sense to stay together.

[Confused48]

****************************************************************

 

Justice...I got my own form justice...I sued their company..(they were fired)...I outed him to his wife and she destroyed him in the D..I outed my wife to her family with pics the OM gave me of them having sex...( at her families request)...None will speak to her to this day...

 

I Napalmed everyone and everything associated with my EXWWs Affair..My EXWW said to me at the end "There is nothing left but ashes." for once I agreed with her...

 

Never confuse forgiveness with reconciliation...For They are NOT the same thing...badkarma2013

 

 

I know a BH who is basically still with his wife a decade or more later so that SHE can never move on. He will not allow her to meet any of his needs. And he still keeps tabs on the OM so that he can sabotage anything good that might approach the OM. In other words, over a decade later, if he finds out the OM is dating someone, he contacts her to let her know what the OM did.

 

Not only is that not forgiveness, that is basically mentally ill.

 

Forgiveness does not always mean reconciliation. But if someone is still in knots years and years later - married or divorced, there's been no forgiveness.

 

Two interesting stories of justice / vengeance. I'd never call someone mentally I'll for seeking justice such as this. It might no t be the path to inner peace but I do understand the drive to seek this result.

[badkarma2013]

From autumnight:"Forgiveness does not always mean reconciliation. But if someone is still in knots years and years later - married or divorced, there's been no forgiveness."

 

 

Could not agree more......Badkarma2013

[merrmeade]

By forgiving ... _____ ... no longer has the ability to hurt me.

 

... you will only worry about justice for yourself.

These two things.