Forgiveness

[sammy7111]

You can never truly forgive or forgot. Because once it happens it happen there's no going back.

[Confused48]

There are infidelity sites that ban WS's from posting in BS threads. Do it & you get suspended. Keep doing it and you get bounced. I wish we had it here on the subjects of "Just Found Out" and "Trying to Reconcile".

 

I've been to a site like that. I found it to be less helpful. I sure do not like to hear from unrepentant WS and OW/OM. I find them to be very disturbing. But I do so very much value the opinions and thoughts of the brave WS here who are sorry and/or trying to recon or trying to get out of an affair. The ones that are happy to flaunt their affair and could care less about who they hurt do bother me. But I'd rather put up with them and their comment than lose the other types of WS. Without them may be less chance for someone to get upset but certainly far less interesting too. IMHO.

 

Just like only a BS will know 100% how it feels to be a BS, only a WS can know and tell us what they are thinking and what their perspective is on an affair.

[Noirek]

I guess it's your preachy pontification that rubs me wrong. That your definition of forgiveness is the only one that counts. That because you can point to a dictionary definition of forgiveness and judge anyone who disagrees with it as wrong. As if anyone can capture a person's emotional reaction to the ultimate betrayal in a few sentences. And its the position you take that your opinion is always correct. You are right by definition. That you know best how a WS should feel and react. You don't so maybe ask more questions and preach less. Like when a BS is having trouble forgiving maybe the first question should be "what does forgiveness mean to you?" and then offer advice and feedback based on his/her answer. Like keeping on point to help BS instead of lecturing them about something you haven't experienced.

 

OP, like most BS's, is struggling to make sense out of his life right now. The affair has sent his very being into a tailspin and he's trying to pull out but doesn't know how. He's learning what to do and what not to do every day. It's trial and error and what works for him is likely not going to work for others. Staying with a cheater is probably the toughest road anyone will travel.

 

There are infidelity sites that ban WS's from posting in BS threads. Do it & you get suspended. Keep doing it and you get bounced. I wish we had it here on the subjects of "Just Found Out" and "Trying to Reconcile".

 

Pot meets kettle maybe?

[autumnnight]

A person cannot be argued or guilted into forgiveness. And perhaps it is less than compassionate to lecture someone whose lifelong partner betrayed them and exposed them to STD's and lied to them about how bad they are for not forgiving.

 

Forgiveness is a process, and that process is not a straight line. And you know what? I know people who swear they will never forgive X or Y, but they have actually moved on and let go. They just don't like using that word because of what it implies to them. Does that really matter? If the point is healing, why does it matter what you do or do not call it?

 

I am typically forgiving by nature. I have forgiven my ex for starving me and putting us in repeated financial peril and hurting me in countless passive aggressive ways. I have forgiven the person who cheated on me, in that I have let go. I have even forgiven my rapist.

 

However, there is a small group of people who wreaked havoc on me randomly who I may never be able to forgive. Mainly because they will never ever even entertain the idea that maybe they were wrong. I wish I could just forget it. I can't.

 

Sometimes I think forgiveness is a goal, like being a size 6 or getting a novel published or running a 4 minute mile. We might never completely get there, but the goal pushes us to keep moving forward.

[ladydesigner]

However, there is a small group of people who wreaked havoc on me randomly who I may never be able to forgive. Mainly because they will never ever even entertain the idea that maybe they were wrong. I wish I could just forget it. I can't.

 

Oh you nailed it for me! The reasons you have stated above are exactly why I have a hard time forgiving.

 

I feel I have dealt with and let go of the wrong that has happened to me, but to forgive those that caused this trauma and yet don't think they are wrong or don't even acknowledge it happened (ie, my brother has lied that he molested me, my rapists called me a whore, and my ex boyfriend told me he never hit me even though I clearly was battered and bruised, and my WH said at one time that I was the cause of his A because of xyz) wow that is hard!

[autumnnight]

Oh you nailed it for me! The reasons you have stated above are exactly why I have a hard time forgiving.

 

I feel I have dealt with and let go of the wrong that has happened to me, but to forgive those that caused this trauma and yet don't think they are wrong or don't even acknowledge it happened (ie, my brother has lied that he molested me, my rapists called me a whore, and my ex boyfriend told me he never hit me even though I clearly was battered and bruised, and my WH said at one time that I was the cause of his A because of xyz) wow that is hard!

 

I'll admit...someone can slowly cut off my fingers one by one, and if they are contrite and acknowledge it was wrong and are really sorry, I'll probably forgive them

 

But people who twist everything you say, who not only will NOT ever admit to being wrong, but who blame YOU for the pain THEY inflict and are not capable of seeing past the fanaticism of their own views....

 

THAT is something I have a horrible time forgiving. Even on TV, on those crime shows, when a murderer says "I'm sorry it happened" or "I'm so sorry I killed them for doing X," my blood boils. I want them to say "I am sorry for what I chose to do, and it is MY responsibility."

[Noirek]

I never said I am right about everything but that this what I believe and some I said was even based solely on my own personality type. But as far as the actual forgiveness defintion goes. Let's change the meaning of lying, cheating, murder and what not while we are at it? Maybe I didn't cheat.

 

But besides the point Confused seems to be less peeved by my posting than others. And I hardly seem to be offending him. You are taking your own personal tone with my posts because you have no defense for your own actions and thoughts and no positive living or happiness to back it up. By your own confession decades after your wife's affair you have forgiven neither yourself or her and are unhappy you stayed. You may be able from your own choice be able to warn people away from staying with a cheater (or going back like you did) but your own life shows withholding forgiveness on some philosophical principle doesn't bring much happiness or contement and so why you preach it seems rather backwards.

 

If one needs to forgive is definetly a matter of opinion. And personality types. (the more NPD traits you have the less forgiving you are which could explain why so many waywards wouldn't forgive someone else's same actions). But the actual defintion is pretty easy to understand. And I think the hardest part is letting go of the personal need for justice. To give some one pardon, forgive, means you no longer want them to pay for their sins. And people often think that means you were okay with it. But if you are okay with someone's actions what is their to forgive.

 

I'm not okay with who I am, or what I did. But my IC so far (4 sessions) says I need to work on forgiving me. And one of those actions I need to take is not allowing people to be pee all over me because of my past actions (even the really fresh ones) that I can disagree with people. That my opinion isn't invalid just because it isn't the same as someone else. However I am a little rocky at expressing this and I think perhaps my tone is suffering. I know I am not always right. In fact I already question a lot of what I wrote. But I don't even know if some things are right vs wrong. Except I do stand by the dictionary. Because otherwise we do just need to throw it out. And I so know if one claims to follow Jesus. Something I no longer claim. They are to forgive 7 times seventy. Not following seems a little easier in this regard.

 

Lectures is a matter of opinion. People usually feel lectured when their conscience bothers them. I am sorry if my posts seem that way. I really am just going in circles. I need to bow out now.

 

I will say this as it seems to be missed.

 

Not forgiving means to hold something against a person. To not give pardon. And if that works in other marriages then so be it. But I would never encourage it. However, outside of keeping a relationship... Not forgiving is different imo. One thing I think everyone can agree is worse than infidelity is assaulting your child. And I doubt I could forgive my spouse of that.

[autumnnight]

Lectures is a matter of opinion. People usually feel lectured when their conscience bothers them.

 

Passive aggressive.

 

THIS is why people are reacting to your post.

 

That, and right or wrong, someone who has cheated, has not expressed a whole lot of written remorse, and is not that far into the process is going to be viewed with some skepticism on this subject. Not saying it is fair, but it is what it is.

[Noirek]

Oh you nailed it for me! The reasons you have stated above are exactly why I have a hard time forgiving.

 

I feel I have dealt with and let go of the wrong that has happened to me, but to forgive those that caused this trauma and yet don't think they are wrong or don't even acknowledge it happened (ie, my brother has lied that he molested me, my rapists called me a whore, and my ex boyfriend told me he never hit me even though I clearly was battered and bruised, and my WH said at one time that I was the cause of his A because of xyz) wow that is hard!

 

That is definetly an issue too. Specially if it is in your face because really, it is a constant action which is different than simply a past one. Which is why forgiveness is a mute point if (like in your case) your ws is not contrite. Because the action is ongoing. And in that case ending the relationship is probably best.

[Noirek]

Passive aggressive.

 

THIS is why people are reacting to your post.

 

That, and right or wrong, someone who has cheated, has not expressed a whole lot of written remorse, and is not that far into the process is going to be viewed with some skepticism on this subject. Not saying it is fair, but it is what it is.

 

I feel I have made it pretty clear I hate who I am and what I have done. Have you ever held a gun in your hand and cried because there was a lock on i and you couldn't go through with your suicide? Not because of what someone did to you but because of who you are?

 

People are reacting because they disagree and they would rather I wasn't here (read drifters posts) and so I suggest they block me or go to that magical site that keeps ws not only out of bs only threads but also out of the general thread and locks them into their own Subforum. In our little opinion less cage we belong. However, the OP, has not minded my posts... So I have continued. His opinion on his thread is what matters to me.

 

And I have apologized for my tone. I know I am not gettingthings out quite right.

[Noirek]

You can never truly forgive or forgot. Because once it happens it happen there's no going back.

 

Some people can forgive. You can only speak for yourself. However, forgetting takes a labotomy. And is not really possible. I think I already mentioned what that statement means. It isn't literal.

[Confused48]

Please don't leave the thread bc of bitter BS comments. Nothing you have said has ever offended me. You have only been helpful. Very helpful.

[autumnnight]

I feel I have made it pretty clear I hate who I am and what I have done. Have you ever held a gun in your hand and cried because there was a lock on i and you couldn't go through with your suicide? Not because of what someone did to you but because of who you are?

 

Not a gun, but yes

 

People are reacting because they disagree and they would rather I wasn't here (read drifters posts) and so I suggest they block me or go to that magical site that keeps ws not only out of bs only threads but also out of the general thread and locks them into their own Subforum. In our little opinion less cage we belong. However, the OP, has not minded my posts... So I have continued. His opinion on his thread is what matters to me.

 

I actually think WS and BS being on the same threads can be helpful to those who actually want help. But yes, some people only want a whipping post. However, I gotta say, sometimes when I read what is written to WS's I think THEY might need a protected place too

 

And I have apologized for my tone. I know I am not gettingthings out quite right.

 

Responses in bold

[sammy7111]

So your say that you can forgive ever time the though comes to your mind. There's no why you can truly forgive someone. If the shoe was on the other foot could you forgive ever time it cross your mind? can you look at him watching other woman without wondering what's going on in his mind? Can you let him go out with friend and not worry you cant. You can learn to live with it but you can never truly forgive

[Noirek]

So your say that you can forgive ever time the though comes to your mind. There's no why you can truly forgive someone. If the shoe was on the other foot could you forgive ever time it cross your mind? can you look at him watching other woman without wondering what's going on in his mind? Can you let him go out with friend and not worry you cant. You can learn to live with it but you can never truly forgive

 

I think you need to say "I can't".

[autumnnight]

So your say that you can forgive ever time the though comes to your mind. There's no why you can truly forgive someone. If the shoe was on the other foot could you forgive ever time it cross your mind? can you look at him watching other woman without wondering what's going on in his mind? Can you let him go out with friend and not worry you cant. You can learn to live with it but you can never truly forgive

 

I'm not sure you understand typical forgiveness. I don't know anyone who has been terribly hurt that never thinks about it again.

[Noirek]

I'm not sure you understand typical forgiveness. I don't know anyone who has been terribly hurt that never thinks about it again.

 

Yeah a conversation would go like this...

 

"Did your spouse ever cheat on you?"

 

"Hmmm, you know I can't remember."

[sammy7111]

That means if u think of it then you can't forgive. Because your still hurting

[autumnnight]

For me, forgiveness does not mean the pain all goes away. For example, if I think about it too much, I can still cry over the years of rejection in my marriage. If I think about it, I still get angry over lies told about me by a former boss.

 

BUT, I chose to let go of the need to hang onto what they did, be defined by what they did and yes, to define THEM by what they did. I let go of the right to hold it over their heads. And I chose to heal and find peace.

 

Now, would I go out to lunch and chit chat with that former boss? No. I don't trust her and don't particularly like her. Would I get back with my ex? No. I don't want a sexless uncertain existence.

 

BUT, I do believe I have forgiven.

[sammy7111]

But you haven't because there actions still upset u. And you want have anything to do with them. There is no such thing as true forgiveness.

[waterwoman]

You can never truly forgive or forgot. Because once it happens it happen there's no going back.

 

Yes you can. I will probably never forget entirely. So what? I had pleurisy as a child. It nearly killed me and I will NEVER forget how much it hurt. But its done and i survived. Just as I will never forget how much H's A hurt me. He IS forgiven though, totally. He f&cked up. He is remorseful and full of regret and we have rebuilt what was broken. It's the past.

[autumnnight]

But you haven't because there actions still upset u. And you want have anything to do with them. There is no such thing as true forgiveness.

 

You keep your definition of forgiveness, and I'll have mine. You are not me.

[Noirek]

But you haven't because there actions still upset u. And you want have anything to do with them. There is no such thing as true forgiveness.

 

Where in the defintion of forgiveness does it say you forget or no longer have moments of pain. Of course for many people there is true forgivness. Maybe not perfect because we are all human.

 

I mentioned in this post that not liking someone and not forgiving them are not the same. I don't like this guy I know. I have nothing to forgive him for but he just isn't someone I would ever be around. For autumn she feels shehas forgicen her ex employer. Doesn't mean she thinks what happened was okay. And it doesn't mean the person is likable. Just means she is no longer waiting for them to get what they deserve.

[autumnnight]

Where in the defintion of forgiveness does it say you forget or no longer have moments of pain. Of course for many people there is true forgivness. Maybe not perfect because we are all human.

 

I mentioned in this post that not liking someone and not forgiving them are not the same. I don't like this guy I know. I have nothing to forgive him for but he just isn't someone I would ever be around. For autumn she feels shehas forgicen her ex employer. Doesn't mean she thinks what happened was okay. And it doesn't mean the person is likable. Just means she is no longer waiting for them to get what they deserve.

 

This does, however, point out why some people really have a hard time forgiving. They think forgiveness means what the other person did was okay or their pain doesn't matter.

[Noirek]

This does, however, point out why some people really have a hard time forgiving. They think forgiveness means what the other person did was okay or their pain doesn't matter.

 

Which isn't logical because what would there be to forgive if the action was okay and the hurt not justified?

 

If someone slaps me in the face in anger and later apologizes. My forgiving them doesn't mean I think slapping people is okay nor does it hurt less. It just means I will no longer hold it against them.

 

I think a lot of people have made forgiveness unattainable by their own definition. Something that could never be reached no matter the process or what have you. And if that is what they believe forgiveness is. Saying horrible actions are okay, no wonder they don't want anything to do with it.