Forgiveness

[merrmeade]

We've all screwed someone over in the past. Maybe not THIS hard...but we've all done it. We've been selfish, stupid, ignorant, uncaring of someone else's feelings etc, and we have all asked for forgiveness.

 

What does that mean?

 

Well, to me, it means thinking about how I want to be treated by the people I've wronged, and sincerely apologized to, and then treating my wife like that.

 

I will never forget what she did, just like nobody I've ever hurt has forgotten I did that. But they have agreed to give me another chance, and treat me with kindness.

 

if we give our spouses another chance, that doesn't erase the pain, or the memories, but it does require that we do the work to treat them with kindness, or let them go.

 

 

The same way they wanted to have their cake and eat it too...I sometimes think we want to keep our WS's, but constantly remind them of the pain they caused.

 

And that is just as selfish.

And this? I understand it but growth for me was to stop hoping for this or even envying it.

 

Either way this approach assumes that the other person SEES the kindness, humility, forgiveness and all the rest and if s/he sees it, RESPECTS and VALUES all of it. Not everyone can.

 

Kindness for these people may be expecting kindness from them.

 

Also, if you continually humble yourself to someone who will only be accountable when HELD ACCOUNTABLE, then that person will readily slip into non-accountability if s/he sees only sweetness and forgiveness. In that situation, the person may be grateful for your continuing to call a spade a spade, calling out euphemisms and challenging platitudes. Kindness in that relationship may mean never allowing the truth to be changed, diminished or ignored and never being disrespected.

 

This could be called justice and tacit forgiveness.

[Arieswoman]

Here's a view from the Christian perspective;-

 

What does forgiveness look like when your adulterous (ex) spouse is unrepentant? | Divorce Minister

[merrmeade]

Here's a view from the Christian perspective;-

 

What does forgiveness look like when your adulterous (ex) spouse is unrepentant? | Divorce Minister

I think you can do the same thing without bringing religion into it.

[ladydesigner]

I really struggle with this with respect to the affair in my life. It makes sense to me that if I could forgive, I myself would feel better. I don't. I want justice especially, for the MAP. I can't help it. I doubt I will get anything close to justice so I suffer, wanting what I will never have.

 

I heard a news story about the family members of people killed at that church in South Carolina. Some of them say they forgive the racist shooter. Then I heard one of them interviewed saying, "Forgiveness is not ignoring the facts. I still want justice."

 

So my question is, is there some kind of forgiveness I don't understand where you get the benefits of both forgiveness and justice? Seems like you have to pick one or the other.

 

I too struggle with forgiveness. I really don't see a need to forgive my WH, what he did is not really forgivable.

 

What I will forgive is myself for deciding to currently stay after the given madness I have been put through.

 

Maybe one day I might, right now it is off the table though.

[Confused48]

Also, if you continually humble yourself to someone who will only be accountable when HELD ACCOUNTABLE, then that person will readily slip into non-accountability if s/he sees only sweetness and forgiveness. I

 

Thanks Merrmeade. I understand your post is directed towards BS who can t forgive their WS. I'm there with you. Very much. But this thread leads me to realize that my bigger problem is the AP.

 

I too struggle with forgiveness. I really don't see a need to forgive my WH, what he did is not really forgivable.

 

What I will forgive is myself for deciding to currently stay after the given madness I have been put through.

 

Oh yah LD! In spades. Thanks.

 

 

But how do I get past this POS whore that inserted into my marriage? I guess I thank the AP for exposing my WS for who WS really is and then burn them both to the ground.

 

Or maybe I just chill and hope they learned their lesson?

[merrmeade]

Thanks Merrmeade. I understand your post is directed towards BS who can t forgive their WS. I'm there with you. Very much. But this thread leads me to realize that my bigger problem is the AP.

 

But how do I get past this POS whore that inserted into my marriage? I guess I thank the AP for exposing my WS for who WS really is and then burn them both to the ground.

 

Or maybe I just chill and hope they learned their lesson?

I just went through your threads quickly and think, like me, you took a long time to process your feelings. Nobody can tell you to how to feel toward the WS or AP. They can try but it's useless. You can't follow someone else's script.

 

So I was wondering if maybe it's taken you a while to get to the outrage and healthy anger that is part of the natural reaction to your WS's betrayal. If so, then I'd advise you to let 'er rip. You' shouldn't be expected to forgive on cue; there's no script or timetable. You need to let that rage have some play to get yourself back, and the more you fight it and 'try' to forgive because you're 'supposed' to, the harder it will be.

 

No, you don't need to forgive yet and, as far as the AP is concerned, why would you need to ever? Did she ask it of you? Is she in your life?

 

I think that all this is MUCH harder if you're keeping quiet, keeping it secret. I'll tell you that's when I started getting better - when I gave myself permission to talk about it with whomever and whenever I wanted. The result was I didn't but to one or two family members, and that was enough. And WS, of course. When AP was finally out of my life and I was able to literally walk away from her (she was a family member trying to make overtures of friendship toward me).

 

Maybe the best you can do is try to understand the circumstances and the personalities, the childhood issues that allowed them to do it. It's not forgiveness but it's explanation and helped me a lot.

[merrmeade]

oh and btw: You don't owe your WS jack sh-t in terms of privacy. When you break a social contract, the consequences are on you 100% regardless of extenuating circumstances. And it is 100% up to the other party, what to do about it. Whether it's a sovereign country or a spouse. You knew the system and your role.

 

So your wayward spouse blew it by deceiving you and commiting adultery. If he wants back in the union, it is 100% up to you. And the felony has been committed. He will never NOT be a felon. Though he doesn't have to wear a monitor, he has one. You. And you don't have to ask when and how you monitor. He surrendered his rights when he trampled your trust. If he wants his rights back - like trust - he has to earn it. The fact that he thinks he has any say-so means lack of remorse which is really another way of saying he does NOT own or bother to see the full extent of his injury to you. I'll come back to the basics: It is 100% up to you how, how much, how long you feel the need to monitor him.

 

Okay, I have things to do and can feel my blood pressure rising. But don't you see? For all of us in this position, giving yourSELF the value and right to get angry and call the shots is the beginning. You can read spark's posts and feel envious you didn't have that sense of self in the beginning but it won't make it happen until you have it. Like forgiveness, it's more than words and deeds. It's a state of being that immanates from the inside out. It's you being true to yourself. I'm just beginning, too, but I know "I" am back. I believe in you, too, C. THere's been LOTS of progress and you know it. Be proud and feel courage from how far you've come.

 

I am fully committed to the belief that the first and last step is full empowerment of the individual for balance in any relationship. I might have given lip-service to this idea before, but the reality of d-day proved it was not a reality. I believe that there's no reconciliation, no cure, no fix to an affair-damaged marriage without that - and no forgiveness.

[merrmeade]

There's a decent book on this. "How Can I Forgive You?" I want to say the author is Janice Springs but I might be a little off on the name. Interestingly enough, the book is far more about acceptance than forgiveness.

Funny personal anecdote related to this book (for those who know my story): My niece told me that her aunt gave her this book to help her - in my niece's words - be okay with NOT forgiving someone (a family member). This was during a time when said aunt was assuming I had - and should have - forgiven her affair with my husband (unbeknownst to niece). Don't you just LOVE it?

 

It helped me a lot with not wanting to discuss, consider or sanction the possibility of forgiving this Queen of Hypocrisy, though she was right about one thing: NOT forgiving can be very healthy.

Edited July 9, 2015 by merrmeade

[the_artist_1970]

Thanks to everyone that posted. I did read the book. It didn't take, lol. Maybe I will read it again.

 

I wanted to clarify in response to this:

 

 

 

I do for the most part forgive my WS. Right on Dday. Even though my Dday was, in its details, quite exceptionally bad. Still, on that day, as I saw the pain and horror on WS's face, I instantly forgave, to a point. WS would say not enough.

 

It is the AP that I still harbor serious thoughts of malice towards. I do think there are ways to bring some measure of justice to the AP.

 

Point taken though that even if I did bring justice to the AP, it would not take away my pain. Still, I want it.

 

To those that forgave their WS or recommend that, do you then, at some point, treat them as if the A never happened? Not forget the past but act as if you forgot?

 

We are 7 years past my DH's affair and I have forgiven. I choose to treat him special and love him with all that I have and he does the same to me. You always know the A happened and we have learned to safeguard our M to make sure that a third party never enters into it again. My DH went through great lengths to regain my trust. He moved mountains for me to prove that he was worthy of being my husband. For that, I am thankful and it makes me want to make sure that he is getting what he needs from me.

 

As far as justice for the xap. I wanted her to die a slow death initially (along with my DH), but after a few years I realized that there was something very broken within her to be able to sleep with a MM in the first place. A woman who can do that is suffering more than you will ever know. To hide and be a MM's sidepiece, you have to feel lower than dirt already. Who wants to be hidden, never meeting your "soul mates" family, friends, co-workers, etc. Living in a hidden world full of deceit. That has to be very painful. I realized that hurt ppl hurt ppl and she had to be in a very bad place to stay hidden while he threw her so few bread crumbs.

 

Now I actually hope that she was able to move on and realize that she deserves better than a MM. While initially, I will admit that I signed her up for a few undesirable websites with her work email and felt good about it at the time; now I realize that it wasn't the right thing to do. I still smile when I think about it which isn't a good thing. Your DH is there every day with you and you can show him your anger and lash out and do whatever you need to do to show him how bad he hurt you. But the AP disappears into an abyss and you never get to pay them back for interfering in your M. I had to turn that thinking around and realize that my hubby invited this person in our M. It is up to him to make sure that he safeguards our M. Hubby deserved all the blame, and while I will NEVER understand how a woman can do that to herself and another woman, I understand that we all have issues in one way or another. It will take time but one day she won't matter to you anymore. She will become that "situation" that rocked your M and you overcame.

 

With time and hard work you will heal and understand. As far as the families of the Charleston shooter, they have not forgiven the shooter yet. They are saying that because they are Christians and they know that they have to forgive because it is in the Bible. But even for them, they will have to go through the grief process and all of the stages of grief and true forgiveness will take time.

[Noirek]

Funny personal anecdote related to this book (for those who know my story): My niece told me that her aunt gave her this book to help her - in my niece's words - be okay with NOT forgiving someone (a family member). This was during a time when said aunt was assuming I had - and should have - forgiven her affair with my husband (unbeknownst to niece). Don't you just LOVE it?

 

It helped me a lot with not wanting to discuss, consider or sanction the possibility of forgiving this Queen of Hypocrisy, though she was right about one thing: NOT forgiving can be very healthy.

 

I have never understood how not forgiving someone can be healthy. I have read that book. I've read a lot and most of the time I think books are just used by people to validate the opinions they already have. I am by nature a very forgiving person. You treat me poorly, I may say something but if, even without an apology you be nice I have always given a second chance. And there have been people who never turned nice and I was always able to move on. Or never apologized. My best childhood friend told a lot of lies about my family and I when I was a young adult. She did it to gain an advantage. Basically she threw out a 19 year relationship for a social gain. I was hurt terribly. And somehow, without an apology we are good friends again. What was done is done. Nothing changes that. No apology or recognition. I lost a lot because of what she did but I have still so much in my life I don't need what I lost. But I love her and she is truly like a sister to me.

 

I don't agree with the idea that you can want justice and forgive. Because forgiving means the opposite of that. Needing justice can be a long wait. It doesn't happen as often as it should in the legal world and even less in the moral world. I know holding something against a person is tiring. It is a piece of you still there and still belonging to that person. Knowing you do not want a relationship with someone does not mean you haven't forgiven. There are people who have done me no ill will that I know I do not want to hang out or be around because of how they act or how completely different we are or how indifferent I feel towards them. But I don't wish ill on those people. Or justice. I would feel rather normal human empathy if something bad happened to them.

 

So why do I doubt not forgiving is healthy? Because psycho babble aside I see nothing to gain from it personally. There is a person who I have not forgiven for over ten years. He is someone who has a lot of fans so to speak. And I know I am waiting for the day for him to get his just desserts for his unethical behaviour. When he is mentioned i feel that gross ball in the pit of my stomach. When I see him I would love to just tear him down a notch. But I know if I could forgive him, I would feel so much better. And I think I will be able to soon. Will I ever life him? Not as he is now. But I would stop waiting for him to come to social justice. In that area of my life I think I would move on.

 

If someone chooses to not work on forgiving and moving on that is their own choice and one I get. Holding grudges is human nature. Though I am not very good at it myself. And I know everyone is very different so I imagine not forgiving gives those people some sort of magic protection spell. Or hapiness. Or something else that fullfills their life.

 

Doesn't work for me.

[ladydesigner]

I really struggle with this with respect to the affair in my life. It makes sense to me that if I could forgive, I myself would feel better. I don't. I want justice especially, for the MAP. I can't help it. I doubt I will get anything close to justice so I suffer, wanting what I will never have.

 

I heard a news story about the family members of people killed at that church in South Carolina. Some of them say they forgive the racist shooter. Then I heard one of them interviewed saying, "Forgiveness is not ignoring the facts. I still want justice."

 

So my question is, is there some kind of forgiveness I don't understand where you get the benefits of both forgiveness and justice? Seems like you have to pick one or the other.

 

I have struggled with both of these aspects my whole life I think partly due to the fact that I am a sexual abuse survivor and am still dealing with the effects of that. I still need to work on myself in therapy for this and I have had many years of therapy already.

 

I still have never forgiven my half-brother for molesting me at age 6

I have not forgiven my friends in high school for raping me

I have not forgiven an ex boyfriend for almost killing me

I have not forgiven my WH for his LTA

 

I have exacted revenge (perceived justice) against the MOW by putting her info on a website. It felt good at first but realized it gained me nothing. I took the info down off the site.

 

I have exacted revenge (perceived justice) against my WH when I found out about his first EA possibly PA, by having my own A. I obviously really fell down the rabbit hole on this one.

 

So I get it and am still trying to understand it.

[Confused48]

Merrmead - I have no problems with privacy. I can and do monitor everything I want to monitor and WS does not complain at all. Even though at first it was quite invasive.

[sammy7111]

How can a person that cheat know anything about how a betrayed person should feel? I think if it never happen to you you can't justify your comments on forgiving some one

[drifter777]

How can a person that cheat know anything about how a betrayed person should feel? I think if it never happen to you you can't justify your comments on forgiving some one

 

Yes - I agree completely. The betrayal of infidelity by your spouse is something that has to happen to you in order to understand it. The academic theories about forgiveness unravel pretty quickly when you discover your spouse has cheated.

[Noirek]

How can a person that cheat know anything about how a betrayed person should feel? I think if it never happen to you you can't justify your comments on forgiving some one

 

There is more to life than infidelity. Believe it or not there are other terrible things thay happen to people. Ladydesigner gave some really terrible things.

 

I have to wonder at the most bitter and resentful people on here. Who shut out any opinions or comments from those who have cheated. Who tear them down whatever chance they get. Who carry and proudly hang on to not forgiving and say that it is okay.

 

If you are truly happy and whole and living with not forgiving someone. Then that is awesome. But if you are bitter, hateful, arrogent, rude, self focused, and what not while not forgiving I wonder who is being hurt more by it. You or someone else. I know people in real life who are angry and unhappy because they have not forgiven. It has darkly affected their lives. But like anything there are levels.

 

Like I said in my opinion not forgiving someone is in no way a good thing in my life. It gains me nothing. But this is based on who I am and I realize others are quite different. But there is one thing I do not agree with and I believe most rational people do.

 

You cannot happily reconcile without it at least being a goal. Truely reconcile and have a good and intimate marriage.

[Noirek]

Yes - I agree completely. The betrayal of infidelity by your spouse is something that has to happen to you in order to understand it. The academic theories about forgiveness unravel pretty quickly when you discover your spouse has cheated.

 

Some people are actually able to feel empathy and place themselves in other situations. It is what good writers do and even good actors. It isn't the same as daily living it... But even people in infidelity react and feel much different.

 

I don't have to lose a child to know how deeply gut wrentching and imposible it is. Maybe for some they lack that empathy. They are the ones who say "just get over it" when they hear about cheating. But other people can see and feel others pain. It is different personalities once again.

 

And sometimes you can be more objective if you are not blinded by your own prejudice and pain.

[katielee]

 

 

 

You cannot happily reconcile without it at least being a goal. Truely reconcile and have a good and intimate marriage.

 

meh, I think you can. I decided it was between him and God. I don't have to be bitter or resentful. I just removed the word from my vocabulary. It is what it is, it happened. Its not acceptable. Lets just move on enjoying our life.

[Noirek]

meh, I think you can. I decided it was between him and God. I don't have to be bitter or resentful. I just removed the word from my vocabulary. It is what it is, it happened. Its not acceptable. Lets just move on enjoying our life.

 

If forgiving someone was saying their actions were acceptable why the heck would you have to forgive them.

 

But come back when you are happy in your marriage, with your life and wonderfully in love with your husband and tell us how reconciling without giving him a pardon worked for you.

 

Forgive - to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.

[drifter777]

Some people are actually able to feel empathy and place themselves in other situations. It is what good writers do and even good actors. It isn't the same as daily living it... But even people in infidelity react and feel much different.

 

I don't have to lose a child to know how deeply gut wrentching and imposible it is. Maybe for some they lack that empathy. They are the ones who say "just get over it" when they hear about cheating. But other people can see and feel others pain. It is different personalities once again.

 

And sometimes you can be more objective if you are not blinded by your own prejudice and pain.

 

No. You have to lose a child to know that horrific pain. You have to be a BS to know what that betrayal feels like.

 

Why is everyone who disagrees with you an angry, miserable person? Can you see anything pragmatically or are you just always right by definition?

[Noirek]

No. You have to lose a child to know that horrific pain. You have to be a BS to know what that betrayal feels like.

 

Why is everyone who disagrees with you an angry, miserable person? Can you see anything pragmatically or are you just always right by definition?

 

I disagree with you on the first. No you don't have to to know the pain and understand the magnitude of it. It is called putting yourself in someone else's shoes. You may not have first hand experience but it doesn't take much imagination put yourself there. For true empathy you don't have to go through something to have it. Feeling empathy for people you have shared an experience with is easy and anyone can do. Having empathy for someone whose experience is outside your own is a lot more than that. Of course knowing the level of pain and actually experienceing it are not the same and that is what empathy is about. But it doesn't mean an opinion is invalid just because a person doesn't have their own first hand experience.

 

To the last part. The people who disagree are often snarky, demeaning and rude. Or post miserably unhappy posts about their life. Or appear to be in despair. I read one person who years after the affair still refers to his wife as a slut/whore. And drags the affair around with him and yet doesn't want to forgive. It isn't about disagreeing with my opinion or anyone else's. It is about two things.

 

I know for me forgiving is liberating. And I know for others it is different.

 

And I have yet to see, read or hear of a marital example where a spouse has not forgiven but the marriage is strong, intimate and happy. Not forgiving someone you share life with appears to lead to a whole lot resentment, anger, hatred (self and the spouse), self entitlement (i did or didn't deserve x,y,z) or even just general depression.

 

Instead of getting angry at me or peeved instead ask yourself why it is so important to not forgive the person you are with. Ask yourself what you gain from it. And if you are happy and content with that answer than share how exactly it helps you so that others can be helped by not forgiving as well.

 

But, for me, the biggest thing that helps me forgive people, and what I am working on with that one dislikable fellow is remembering a few things.

 

1. Everyone does what is right (or not that wrong) in their own eyes

2. Moral justice is not worth holding on to resentment for. It can make you ill when it never comes.

3. I do not need any sort of connection to being wronged.

4. Not forgiving someone often goes hand in hand with hate. And I have never see happiness and light heartedness in hatred.

5. I am not entitled to everyone treating me fairly. The world does not revolve around me. People will and do make descisions that hurt me and I obviously have done so myself. I do not deserve a perfect life and there are no guarantees that I will get one. But I make my own choices. Not others. And I cannot control or change anyone's behaviour or the past. Which is why I have said, not forgiving, gains me nothing.

 

I should add there is a difference between wounds still being fresh and needing to let go over and over and choosing to hold onto the grudge tightly with both hands as a part of who you are.

[katielee]

I'm actually friends with quite a few couples who are happily recovered and just don't worry about forgiveness, on another board.

 

There is research that ppl who forgive horrific acts are worse off than those who don't. I think Gottman or Richo said that there are some things that just can't be forgiven. It would require a sacrifice of the soul of the forgiver. I really believe that.

 

you are equating not forgiving to hatred - I don't see it that way. There is a big difference between hate and meh.

 

I'm getting happier - yay~ We have had a great summer together!

[fellini]

Two years reading about BS's like myself, and this constant return to a mantra about Forgiveness / Reconciliation / forgiveness vs. Forgetting / Reconciliation cannot happen if one does not forgive/ one can forgive and it has nothing to do with reconciliation / not ready to forgive because WS hasn't shown remorse etc. etc. ...

 

Sometimes, actually a lot of times, I am certain that when someone says "I cannot yet forgive" it basically means, "I'm not ready to let go of my commitment to the A my WS had". Forgiveness as though it is something the wayward has to EARN.

 

Indeed. I believe we only forgive people if we have a sense of what forgiveness means to us, and how to forgive is all about ourselves. If you are not ready to forgive, it is because you do not yet understand the difference between the anger, trauma, gestalt of betrayal and personal forgiveness.

 

Forgiveness is no different for an infidelity as it is for a mass murderer. There are no "conditions" other than to free yourself of your own pain. Not all your pain, but the pain that you already know can vacate your life if you only knew how to forgive.

 

Everything else is for me about justice, revenge, belief in reciprocity (how would "s/he feel if I did THAT to him/her". None of this has to do with forgiveness, but forgiveness goes a long way in preventing oneself to EAT ONESELF ALIVE with those kinds of questions. Instead of seeking justice, revenge, answers to reciprocity to GAIN forgiveness one should be FORGIVING another in order NOT to have to ENTERTAIN those desires.

 

Not everyone wants this freedom, judging by some of the arguments that can be found in LS. In fact, forgiveness, can often be seen to be the very problem. Some people want to remain in the safety of their addiction to hating waywards. Some hold onto their "not forgiving" in order to sustain their very real new identity as a BS. Others simply don't deal with forgiveness as an issue because they have already moved on and see no need to dwell on the topic of forgiveness. it does not eat them.

 

But this constant talk about not being able to forgive is for me, essentially, about not being able (or wanting at a very deep level - or being afraid at a very deep level) to move forward and OUT of the comfort of being a victim of infidelity. The PTSD soldier who signs up for yet another tour.

 

When I say I hope everyone finds forgiveness, I mean to say, as a strategy, not just to forgive your S's infidelity, but to forgive even yourself if necessary, and move forward, before it all ends. Which is almost always way too soon. "We all have an obligation to seek happiness in our one life".

Edited July 10, 2015 by fellini

[Confused48]

Noirek,

 

I admit that I am a bitter BS. I am angry and resentful too. About the affair. That is not all of me though. I have other qualities and emotions. I would say though, that of all the BS on this site, there are few that are more bitter, angry and resentful than I am.

 

That being said, I very much appreciate you and the other WS that post here. I understand that it is not easy to put up with the hostility that some throw your way. Despite my bitterness about my situation, I feel no urge to take it out on someone that is posting to help myself and others like me. While I may agree that a WS can not fully understand the pain of a BS, nevertheless a WS can have empathy for a BS and can provide insight into the situation that no BS could ever provide. So thank you Noirek.

 

Confused

[merrmeade]

Merrmead - I have no problems with privacy. I can and do monitor everything I want to monitor and WS does not complain at all. Even though at first it was quite invasive.

I think I was addressing that because I'd read your threads all at once. One of them dealt with both your reactions related to a Facebook post several months out from D-day. Sorry for the confusion.

[autumnnight]

I do think, too, that sometimes a BS thinks of forgiveness as giving up some of their power over the WS. Like, "If I forgive, then they got away with it and don't have to suffer."