Forgiveness

[merrmeade]

There is more to life than infidelity. Believe it or not there are other terrible things thay happen to people. Ladydesigner gave some really terrible things.

 

I have to wonder at the most bitter and resentful people on here. Who shut out any opinions or comments from those who have cheated. Who tear them down whatever chance they get. Who carry and proudly hang on to not forgiving and say that it is okay.

 

If you are truly happy and whole and living with not forgiving someone. Then that is awesome. But if you are bitter, hateful, arrogent, rude, self focused, and what not while not forgiving I wonder who is being hurt more by it. You or someone else. I know people in real life who are angry and unhappy because they have not forgiven. It has darkly affected their lives. But like anything there are levels.

 

Like I said in my opinion not forgiving someone is in no way a good thing in my life. It gains me nothing. But this is based on who I am and I realize others are quite different. But there is one thing I do not agree with and I believe most rational people do.

 

You cannot happily reconcile without it at least being a goal. Truely reconcile and have a good and intimate marriage.

Lotta "shoulds" there.

 

All I've been saying is that nobody, neither confused48 nor the parent of a mass murder victim, can forgive before they've acknowledged the injury against them and vented the rage and grief that engenders. I didn't feel that OP had really done that.

[autumnnight]

Lotta "shoulds" there.

 

All I've been saying is that nobody, neither confused48 nor the parent of a mass murder victim, can forgive before they've acknowledged the injury against them and vented the rage and grief that engenders. I didn't feel that OP had really done that.

 

I think that blanket forgiveness without addressing pain can be dangerous. It keeps all that venom inside us under a cloak of "should." Pain HAS to be validated and worked through.

[Confused48]

ask yourself why it is so important to not forgive the person you are with. Ask yourself what you gain from it. And if you are happy and content with that answer than share how exactly it helps you so that others can be helped by not forgiving as well.

 

Good questions.

 

I don't forgive the AP bc the AP is not sorry and is still a threat to me and my family. I wonder if I would feel differently about seeking justice for the AP if these two things were not true. I really don't know. I suspect I might still feel this way since it has been going on so long. It might just be too much damage done to ever change my mind. Now that I say that, it might have been to much damage if it had been just a once and done thing. I feel such anger about it I think it does not matter that the AP is not sorry or still a threat. I think it is unforgivable.

 

As for my WS, I'm not sure if WS is sorry. I can't believe WS's statements of course and the other evidence is mixed. I do fully believe that WS, even if sorry, is still very much in danger of doing it again. My IC told me that my anger at WS is a natural result of still feeling in danger. She said that the anger protects me and keeps me vigilant. It makes sense.

 

Despite the anger and bitterness, WS and I are very happy at times. We are close, intimate and loving, even infatuation type love at times. It is odd. It is like a fantasy at times. We forget all our problems and live as if the A never happened. At times. Almost every morning we wake up and have this experience. Then as the day wears on......

[autumnnight]

Almost every morning we wake up and have this experience. Then as the day wears on......

 

I think this is somewhat normal. I remember watching a Criminal Minds episode about a child who has been missing for 8 years. The mom said there was this moment when she first woke up, where everything was exactly as it should be, and there was peace. Then it all came rushing back. I think that can be true of any trauma, pain, or terrible fear.

[sammy7111]

I'm sorry you can have empathy for someone but tell it happens to you you can't truly have any idea there pain. It's like saying you like something but you never even tried it so how do you know you like it. I say forgive them then forget them there not worth losing sleep over. Forgive foe yourself so you don't worry about it then forget them because your better then them.

[Noirek]

Lotta "shoulds" there.

 

All I've been saying is that nobody, neither confused48 nor the parent of a mass murder victim, can forgive before they've acknowledged the injury against them and vented the rage and grief that engenders. I didn't feel that OP had really done that.

 

That is merely your interpetation of my post. I reread it and I didn't say "should" once.

 

I don't know if it is a deep forgiveness if you just bury what happenes or don't acknowledge the pain. Acceptance really has to come first. And as I have not read many of Confused's posts I don't know if he has ever accepted or not. Or if he is just stuck on the merry go round. Accept, forgive, ect. And I don't know how perfect human forgiveness really is? Like maybe people have actually forgiven but because they are human memories spark the pain and anger. But it is directes at back then and not now. But because they stay and dwell too long when it sparks they bring then back to now. Or maybe some people suffer from too much in their head. Over analyzing every emotion and feeling that comes their way. I know I tend to suffer from being in my head too much and overthinking things. I usually need to calm the f down.

[Noirek]

I'm actually friends with quite a few couples who are happily recovered and just don't worry about forgiveness, on another board.

 

There is research that ppl who forgive horrific acts are worse off than those who don't. I think Gottman or Richo said that there are some things that just can't be forgiven. It would require a sacrifice of the soul of the forgiver. I really believe that.

 

you are equating not forgiving to hatred - I don't see it that way. There is a big difference between hate and meh.

 

I'm getting happier - yay~ We have had a great summer together!

 

You can find philosophical idiots who preach all sorts of things. And yes their are things I too think are probably unforgiveable for many people. And it depends on how often the person not forgiving dwell their. But explain to me how holding your husband's affair against him by not forgiving helps your marriage. Because the opposite of forgive. It is resent. So if you haven't forgiven someone you still resent them. And while that is normal and understandable. It doesn't make for a good marriage long term. And we all have resentments in our lives. Wanting to keep that resentment seems counter productive when also wanting to keep the spouse. And if you don't actually agree with the defintions of forgive but make up or borrow someone else's psycho babble one then you can't really discuss because what your unanamed action is that allows you to pardon your partner, stop resenting them and let go of your grudge is... Is really, forgiveness.

 

I did though mention their are levels. If you had a good summer I imagine you are reaching another level of forgiveness. Not the at once magical moment some people look for. But a little by little losing the resentment.

 

I imagine one day many of us look back on our lives and wonder why we got all up about a word and disliked it so much.

[Noirek]

I just want to add, forgiveness for reconciliation may be on the BS side of things in the process, but there is a whole lot more on the WS side. And if the WS is not acting in a way that shows they should be forgiven and reconciled with (much like me) then they are better divorced and then you decide if you need to forgive Or not. Nor do I think one has to forgive immediately or what not. But I would think that after several years of good behaviour on the WS a pardon should be considered. And forgiveness shouldn't seem like such a nasty word.

 

Personally I think far to many BS stay with their WS for a variety of reasons. Most people shouldn't reconcile and don't really they just stay together. The same fear often that keeps ws from actually leaving the marriage for the AP (in those sort of situations) keeps the BS as well.

[katielee]

You can find philosophical idiots who preach all sorts of things.

.

 

truth! Even on this one...

 

"If you had a good summer I imagine you are reaching another level of forgiveness."

 

so I just don't worry about it.

[Noirek]

truth! Even on this one...

 

"If you had a good summer I imagine you are reaching another level of forgiveness."

 

so I just don't worry about it.

 

Nice dig... Do you feel better about yourself with your passive aggresive insult?

 

and I'm glad you don't worry about it. But in the spirit of acceptance and actuay dealing with issues I wonder if not worrying is the same as rug sweeping or not. Or if it is more of a letting it go for good.

 

For what it is worth (which isn't much). I have never felt you even should still be with your husband but realize you are not ready to leave. By your tormented posts it has always seemed he was never really apologetic for his actions. Or wanting to do much work. But if that has changed and things are better I am genuinly glad. I like seeing people be happy and moving on.

[merrmeade]

You can find philosophical idiots who preach all sorts of things. And yes their are things I too think are probably unforgiveable for many people. And it depends on how often the person not forgiving dwell their. But explain to me how holding your husband's affair against him by not forgiving helps your marriage. Because the opposite of forgive. It is resent. So if you haven't forgiven someone you still resent them. And while that is normal and understandable. It doesn't make for a good marriage long term. And we all have resentments in our lives. Wanting to keep that resentment seems counter productive when also wanting to keep the spouse. And if you don't actually agree with the defintions of forgive but make up or borrow someone else's psycho babble one then you can't really discuss because what your unanamed action is that allows you to pardon your partner, stop resenting them and let go of your grudge is... Is really, forgiveness.

 

I did though mention their are levels. If you had a good summer I imagine you are reaching another level of forgiveness. Not the at once magical moment some people look for. But a little by little losing the resentment.

 

I imagine one day many of us look back on our lives and wonder why we got all up about a word and disliked it so much.

wow. Did you ever start IC? The reason this is "shoulds" and value judgments is because of all the universal you's. What qualifies you to these proclaim these truths? In the beginning, yes, you qualify with I too think, probably and seems but even then you're proclaiming what is and isn't forgivable without a reference to what makes it so — as if there's a rule book with grades of forgivability along with what's a good marriage and levels of forgiveness.

 

You aren't the first one to take this line, however. Perhaps it sounds uncharitable that someone should question the necessity of forgiveness. But maybe what you're not realizing is that by realizing we're not yet able to forgive and wondering about that, we're dealing with it. Maybe she wants to forgive. Maybe she wants to look more closely at herself and her feelings as well as her progress in her marriage. Regardless, I DON"T CLAIM TO JUDGE IT as resentment or anything else. I tried to suggest she's working through the limits of her feelings.

 

The main thing I see with most BSs working through this is that forgiveness happens. It's not a choice. And it's something that the BS (or any other victim) is at some point ABLE to do for him/herself as a result of understanding. I call it understanding or explanation about why my WH did what he did, why my SIL did what she did and looks at it and me the way she does. I've done that and it allowed me to rise above the feelings of rage and victimhood. I think it's forgiveness. But other than that, what does it matter what you or anyone else calls it?

 

Neither I nor confused should feel bad about where we are. I hope my WH also can get to where we can look at things beyond his shame, too. In the end, we're just products of what's happened to us and how we reacted. Me. You. Confused48. No right or wrong. If she wants to consider forgiveness, I don't agree with implying there's a right or wrong place to be with it. It's what it is.

Edited July 10, 2015 by merrmeade

[katielee]

exactly, merrmeade!

[katielee]

Nice dig... Do you feel better about yourself with your passive aggresive insult?

 

and I'm glad you don't worry about it. But in the spirit of acceptance and actuay dealing with issues I wonder if not worrying is the same as rug sweeping or not. Or if it is more of a letting it go for good.

 

For what it is worth (which isn't much). I have never felt you even should still be with your husband but realize you are not ready to leave. By your tormented posts it has always seemed he was never really apologetic for his actions. Or wanting to do much work. But if that has changed and things are better I am genuinly glad. I like seeing people be happy and moving on.

 

I said I knew some people who have nicely recovered without forgiveness and you implied they were idiots. So, I gave it back to you. Not much passivity about it.

[Noirek]

wow. Did you ever start IC? The reason this is "shoulds" and value judgments is because of all the universal you's. What qualifies you to these proclaim these truths? In the beginning, yes, you qualify with I too think, probably and seems but even then you're proclaiming what is and isn't forgivable without a reference to what makes it so — as if there's a rule book with grades of forgivability along with what's a good marriage and levels of forgiveness.

 

You aren't the first one to take this line, however. Perhaps it sounds uncharitable that someone should question the necessity of forgiveness. But maybe what you're not realizing is that I think confused48 is like many of us who, at some point, realized we weren't able to forgive yet and wondered about that. Maybe she wants to forgive. Maybe she wants to look more closely at herself and her feelings as well as her progress in her marriage. Regardless, I DON"T CLAIM TO JUDGE IT as resentment or anything else. I tried to suggest she's working through the limits of her feelings.

 

The main thing I see with most BSs working through this is that forgiveness happens. It's not a choice. And it's something that the BS (or any other victim) is at some point ABLE to do for him/herself as a result of understanding. I call it understanding or explanation about why my WH did what he did, why my SIL did what she did and looks at it and me the way she does. I've done that and it allowed me to rise above the feelings of rage and victimhood. I think it's forgiveness. But other than that, what does it matter what you or anyone else calls it?

 

Neither I nor confused should feel bad about where we are. I hope my WH also can get to where we can look at things beyond his shame, too. In the end, we're just products of what's happened to us and how we reacted. Me. You. Confused48. No right or wrong. If she wants to consider forgiveness, I don't agree with implying there's a right or wrong place to be with it. It's what it is.

Nice attack because i disagree.

 

Look, if you want to completely change the defintion of a word. You can. I don't think there is a law against. And I made it pretty clear I thought that as far as the need to forgive someone that is a personality thing. For me personally not wanting to forgive gains me nothing and has helped me none. And yes, i am in ic tyvm. Maybe you should learn to stop reading into people's posts? Just because I disagree doesn't mean my opinion is invalid. Or does it. I am asking questions. Discussing. Don't like it use the ignore button. Neither you, drifter, kaitilee even want to forgive. Or havea personal grudge against the word. I don't know why. I'm not you. But I know, as a ws, I could never stay with someone who would resent me for eternity because of my failings. If i knew their would be no forgiveness I wouldn't stay. I can hardly forgive myself, and haven't yet. And I don't expect my husband to overnight. But I know he wants to. And that is enough. Confused wants to.

 

Some people don't.

[merrmeade]

confused48 is consulting LS and listening. She's finding HER way through the morass of issues, personal and universal. But one thing's sure. Judging her admitted difficulty with forgiveness as something necessary and projecting that to resentment and punishment toward her WH is pure projection. I think she's here for herself and wanting to understand, do what's right for her life, and get better. And I think she will.

[Confused48]

And as I have not read many of Confused's posts I don't know if he has ever accepted or not. Or if he is just stuck on the merry go round.

 

Did you miss above where I admitted that I was very bitter? (I also thanked you for posting.) I don't think I'm back and forth about it much. Once during a Metta meditation that TaraMaiden sent me, I got to a point where I totally forgave both of them. It felt fantastic. It didn't last.

 

Mostly when I'm not bitter, it is just bc I'm not thinking about the A. If the A comes into my consciousness, I have the same reaction consistently.

 

 

And I don't know how perfect human forgiveness really is? Like maybe people have actually forgiven but because they are human memories spark the pain and anger. But it is directes at back then and not now. But because they stay and dwell too long when it sparks they bring then back to now.

 

This is interesting. Like maybe people that spend a lot of time ruminating, they may be unable to forgive.

 

 

Or maybe some people suffer from too much in their head. Over analyzing every emotion and feeling that comes their way. I know I tend to suffer from being in my head too much and overthinking things. I usually need to calm the f down.

 

Me too. In spades. Easier said than done my friend.

[Noirek]

I said I knew some people who have nicely recovered without forgiveness and you implied they were idiots. So, I gave it back to you. Not much passivity about it.

 

No I was talking about proffesional people who preach not forgiving. You misunderstood. The people who recovered without either have buried the resentment or merely are acting out what forgivness is without giving it a title. Or they are okay with an imbalanced life where there is resentment. Which is a to each their own.

[merrmeade]

wow. nicely done, confused48. I thought you were a she. Someone referred to you as a he. Skimmed pg 1 of your threads again and find no gender reference off the top. Impressive!

 

Not that gender matters, but which one is right?

 

Otherwise, it's a nice writing challenge if you want to keep it this way.

[Noirek]

Did you miss above where I admitted that I was very bitter? (I also thanked you for posting.) I don't think I'm back and forth about it much. Once during a Metta meditation that TaraMaiden sent me, I got to a point where I totally forgave both of them. It felt fantastic. It didn't last.

 

Mostly when I'm not bitter, it is just bc I'm not thinking about the A. If the A comes into my consciousness, I have the same reaction consistently.

 

 

 

 

This is interesting. Like maybe people that spend a lot of time ruminating, they may be unable to forgive.

 

 

 

 

Me too. In spades. Easier said than done my friend.

 

I think maybe it sounds like acceptance is what you are struggling with. Accepting that this really did happen and you are helpless to change that. You can't be uncheated on.

 

And I do know that ctfd is hard. Don't I ever. It is what I tell myself. I don't always listen... Even above I got upset at being attacked for having a different opinion. But really... It doesn't matter. I believe forgiveness is important in active relationships. I don't go out of my way to change the defintion to suit what I want. But, other people are different and that is okay. What matters confused is figuring out what you want (and if it is just not to be cheated on... Working on acceptance). Is forgiveness important to you or can you do well without. Do you really need to reconcile to is it okay to start new. Those sort of things.

[merrmeade]

Nice attack because i disagree.

 

Look, if you want to completely change the defintion of a word. You can. I don't think there is a law against. And I made it pretty clear I thought that as far as the need to forgive someone that is a personality thing. For me personally not wanting to forgive gains me nothing and has helped me none. And yes, i am in ic tyvm. Maybe you should learn to stop reading into people's posts? Just because I disagree doesn't mean my opinion is invalid. Or does it. I am asking questions. Discussing. Don't like it use the ignore button. Neither you, drifter, kaitilee even want to forgive. Or havea personal grudge against the word. I don't know why. I'm not you. But I know, as a ws, I could never stay with someone who would resent me for eternity because of my failings. If i knew their would be no forgiveness I wouldn't stay. I can hardly forgive myself, and haven't yet. And I don't expect my husband to overnight. But I know he wants to. And that is enough. Confused wants to.

 

Some people don't.

I accidentally hit the "Like" button on this but then decided I do like some parts. (Noirek's voice has changed which is cool, fine, interesting.) There's a lot you don't seem to understand or have experienced about the give and take, the changes in a BS and WS working through ALL the issues of their particular marriage in light of infidelity. It's a work in progress. That's why I stay; I think that's why my WS stays. Emphasis on work. Emphasis on progress. NO emphasis on resentment.

 

I think I can safely say others share this experience.

[merrmeade]

wow. nicely done, confused48. I thought you were a she. Someone referred to you as a he. Skimmed pg 1 of your threads again and find no gender reference off the top. Impressive!

 

Not that gender matters, but which one is right?

 

Otherwise, it's a nice writing challenge if you want to keep it this way.

Actually I figured it out but - out of respect for OP's apparent tone and approach - will take the gender neutral approach. So question officially dropped.

[ladydesigner]

Accepting that this really did happen and you are helpless to change that. You can't be uncheated on.

 

This was the hardest part for me and then I experienced False R. I had almost gotten to a point where I felt like forgiving my WH and then BOOM...the A never ended.

 

Now I am stuck with knowing that not only did my WH see me crushed, he saw me spiral down into such a deep depression that I attempted suicide.

 

At what point is something deemed unforgivable?

[Confused48]

I think maybe it sounds like acceptance is what you are struggling with. Accepting that this really did happen and you are helpless to change that. You can't be uncheated on.

 

OMG! This was so painful to read! Truth really hurts sometimes but I'm glad you said it. I want to be uncheated. I want my old life back. I'm crying as I write this.

 

I believe forgiveness is important in active relationships. I don't go out of my way to change the defintion to suit what I want. But, other people are different and that is okay. What matters confused is figuring out what you want (and if it is just not to be cheated on... Working on acceptance). Is forgiveness important to you or can you do well without. Do you really need to reconcile to is it okay to start new. Those sort of things.

 

I also want forgiveness. Like I said I understand that it would be good. I would love to reconcile but aside from my WS having serious issues that make that hard, even if WS was the perfect repentant WS, I really wonder if could I ever do it.

 

about the give and take, the changes in a BS and WS working through ALL the issues of their particular marriage in light of infidelity. It's a work in progress. That's why I stay; I think that's why my WS stays. Emphasis on work. Emphasis on progress. NO emphasis on resentment.

 

I agree. I think part of why I stay is that regardless if I can ever forgive my WS, it is valuable to stay and work on the relationship. It is teaching me hard lessons. I'm tough enough to do this hard thing. In fact, as long as there isn't another A, I may not ever leave though I think about it a lot.

[drifter777]

Nice attack because i disagree.

 

Look, if you want to completely change the defintion of a word. You can. I don't think there is a law against. And I made it pretty clear I thought that as far as the need to forgive someone that is a personality thing. For me personally not wanting to forgive gains me nothing and has helped me none. And yes, i am in ic tyvm. Maybe you should learn to stop reading into people's posts? Just because I disagree doesn't mean my opinion is invalid. Or does it. I am asking questions. Discussing. Don't like it use the ignore button. Neither you, drifter, kaitilee even want to forgive. Or havea personal grudge against the word. I don't know why. I'm not you. But I know, as a ws, I could never stay with someone who would resent me for eternity because of my failings. If i knew their would be no forgiveness I wouldn't stay. I can hardly forgive myself, and haven't yet. And I don't expect my husband to overnight. But I know he wants to. And that is enough. Confused wants to.

 

Some people don't.

I guess it's your preachy pontification that rubs me wrong. That your definition of forgiveness is the only one that counts. That because you can point to a dictionary definition of forgiveness and judge anyone who disagrees with it as wrong. As if anyone can capture a person's emotional reaction to the ultimate betrayal in a few sentences. And its the position you take that your opinion is always correct. You are right by definition. That you know best how a WS should feel and react. You don't so maybe ask more questions and preach less. Like when a BS is having trouble forgiving maybe the first question should be "what does forgiveness mean to you?" and then offer advice and feedback based on his/her answer. Like keeping on point to help BS instead of lecturing them about something you haven't experienced.

 

OP, like most BS's, is struggling to make sense out of his life right now. The affair has sent his very being into a tailspin and he's trying to pull out but doesn't know how. He's learning what to do and what not to do every day. It's trial and error and what works for him is likely not going to work for others. Staying with a cheater is probably the toughest road anyone will travel.

 

There are infidelity sites that ban WS's from posting in BS threads. Do it & you get suspended. Keep doing it and you get bounced. I wish we had it here on the subjects of "Just Found Out" and "Trying to Reconcile".

[sammy7111]

You got to love a cheater preaching something that they have no idea how it feels.