Forgiveness

[Noirek]

So she thinks you should feel sorry for OM because she broke his heart when she quit screwing him? This might be the very definition of NPD. Really, if this is how she thinks you should try to end your marriage. You can't hold your breath forever hoping a miracle happens that cannot happen because she's not even sorry.

 

I think you need to reread the description of NPD. If the AP has made it clear they still have feelings and miss the WS it is hardly narcissistic of the WS to think it... They know it. If the WS however assumes it... That is different. If they with no evidence Of feelings after all this time being in place you may be right.

 

You also don't know if she is sorry or not. Not at least by this one little post.

[Confused48]

Well, some do the fake it until you make it way. That is where I feel I'm at. Not about my feelings about my husband but about me.

 

If it isn't tmi, what exactly has the AP done to show they are still not over your WS?

 

Th AP texts to WS begging for attention. My WS does not respond and shows me.

[Noirek]

Th AP texts to WS begging for attention. My WS does not respond and shows me.

 

How long has it been? It was my xMM who reached out to me. I even fold my husband the first day. But my buried and unresolved feelins are what led me down that path again. The fact is it felt good that he wanted me still/again. And I fell back in so fast it disgusted me. More than the first time even though the affair itself was hardly one. Mostly me keeping him on the hook. Your spouse not responding is probably a good thing for your feelings of security. I do hope you can get to the place you want to be.

[Noirek]

What is npd

 

narcissistic personality disorder.

[Confused48]

How long has it been? It was my xMM who reached out to me. I even fold my husband the first day. But my buried and unresolved feelins are what led me down that path again. The fact is it felt good that he wanted me still/again. And I fell back in so fast it disgusted me. More than the first time even though the affair itself was hardly one. Mostly me keeping him on the hook. Your spouse not responding is probably a good thing for your feelings of security. I do hope you can get to the place you want to be.

 

Thank you for sharing the whole picture. Giving the insight that my WS is probably afraid to share.

 

The AP most recently reached out again about a month ago. I really don't think my WS wants to be with this disordered person. WS now sees that it is a disordered person. Still, the addiction lingers.

[Noirek]

Thank you for sharing the whole picture. Giving the insight that my WS is probably afraid to share.

 

The AP most recently reached out again about a month ago. I really don't think my WS wants to be with this disordered person. WS now sees that it is a disordered person. Still, the addiction lingers.

 

It really is an addiction. It is a filthy dirtt addiction that makes you feel gross after. That you try not to think about. But then you go at it again. Maybe not for everyone.

 

Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returns to its vomit,

so fools repeat their folly.

 

I don't know your spouse. They aren't here. They probably aren't like me at all. But I hope they are remorseful and thankful you are still there.

[drifter777]

What part did I not understand? OP wrote: "WS says I should think about the AP enduring thoughts of WS with me for so long after Dday while obviously not getting over losing WS". She actually thinks OP should - what - feel sorry for her AP? Are you kidding me? Its one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard a WS say to BS. OP - just how much gaslighting are you going to swallow?

[Noirek]

What part did I not understand? OP wrote: "WS says I should think about the AP enduring thoughts of WS with me for so long after Dday while obviously not getting over losing WS". She actually thinks OP should - what - feel sorry for her AP? Are you kidding me? Its one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard a WS say to BS. OP - just how much gaslighting are you going to swallow?

 

It was in direct reply to my idea I threw out about the OP replacing their feelings for AP with pity. and The pity I meant was in the context of the AP being a pathetic individual. How exactly OP's spouse told them. The tone and the exact words are not known. There was no direct quote if the exact words and we don't even know what brought the conversation up. Or the context. You are assuming a lot. And i don't know if the OP wants to clarify or not.

 

I never said you didn't understand his post... I said you need to reread about npd.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Noirek

[merrmeade]

I disagree with you on the first. No you don't have to to know the pain and understand the magnitude of it. It is called putting yourself in someone else's shoes. You may not have first hand experience but it doesn't take much imagination put yourself there. For true empathy you don't have to go through something to have it. Feeling empathy for people you have shared an experience with is easy and anyone can do. Having empathy for someone whose experience is outside your own is a lot more than that. Of course knowing the level of pain and actually experienceing it are not the same and that is what empathy is about. But it doesn't mean an opinion is invalid just because a person doesn't have their own first hand experience.

 

To the last part. The people who disagree are often snarky, demeaning and rude. Or post miserably unhappy posts about their life. Or appear to be in despair. I read one person who years after the affair still refers to his wife as a slut/whore. And drags the affair around with him and yet doesn't want to forgive. It isn't about disagreeing with my opinion or anyone else's. It is about two things.

 

I know for me forgiving is liberating. And I know for others it is different.

 

And I have yet to see, read or hear of a marital example where a spouse has not forgiven but the marriage is strong, intimate and happy. Not forgiving someone you share life with appears to lead to a whole lot resentment, anger, hatred (self and the spouse), self entitlement (i did or didn't deserve x,y,z) or even just general depression.

 

Instead of getting angry at me or peeved instead ask yourself why it is so important to not forgive the person you are with. Ask yourself what you gain from it. And if you are happy and content with that answer than share how exactly it helps you so that others can be helped by not forgiving as well.

 

But, for me, the biggest thing that helps me forgive people, and what I am working on with that one dislikable fellow is remembering a few things.

 

1. Everyone does what is right (or not that wrong) in their own eyes

2. Moral justice is not worth holding on to resentment for. It can make you ill when it never comes.

3. I do not need any sort of connection to being wronged.

4. Not forgiving someone often goes hand in hand with hate. And I have never see happiness and light heartedness in hatred.

5. I am not entitled to everyone treating me fairly. The world does not revolve around me. People will and do make descisions that hurt me and I obviously have done so myself. I do not deserve a perfect life and there are no guarantees that I will get one. But I make my own choices. Not others. And I cannot control or change anyone's behaviour or the past. Which is why I have said, not forgiving, gains me nothing.

 

I should add there is a difference between wounds still being fresh and needing to let go over and over and choosing to hold onto the grudge tightly with both hands as a part of who you are.

I just picked one to respond to but it's the aggregate of posts loudly cricitizing what you've misread as a non-forgiveness stance, picking apart and making erroneous assumptions. It was embarrassing. Blinding insensity and entitlement in a group of scarred individuals. I had to turn my head away in painful disbelief a few times.

 

What am I talking about? The audacity of a WS coming in here giving any opinion at all, much less judgmental ones about what forgiveness means. It's one thing to "forgive yourself," as the therapist has erncouraged, in order to get over crippling shame. It's another entirely to take that newfound voice and argue theoretical positions on forgiveness.

 

It's missing the point. Ask the therapist. Forgiving yourself to get rid of crippling shame, does not give you this right. Read MRs. John Adams. Her remorse included respect and clearly articulated understanding of how the BS felt. She was never arrogant.

[merrmeade]

I'm sorry, confused. I'm so glad you found the WS'd posts helpfu. But don't get me wrong because you're right; it definitely helps to understand the WS and more especially (in my case) the AP. Because I knew the AP as a family member, I knew her therapist was helping her in this way as well — forgive yourself talk — which made her act like nothing was wrong between us. The affair was out of her mind and, therefore, she was ready to stand up as my equal. It's insupportably arrogant, if that's what you're contending with, and sets bac being able to forgive.

[Ronni_W]

Confused,

I confess that I haven't read all of the the posts in this thread -- because "forgiveness" is something that I'm still working through and sometimes I just don't need the trigger

WS says I should think about the AP enduring thoughts of WS with me for so long after Dday while obviously not getting over losing WS.

Well...obviously whatever works is great. But that wouldn't cut it, for me.

When I get to the point of needing someone else's "enduring"; someone else's pain or misery or insecurity for me to feel "secure, happy, avenged, comfortable, uplifted", (whatever)...then just take me to second death. At that point, I will not be liking myself very much, if at all.

BTW we just spent a great night together. Not sure it is healthy but we both were so into pretending there are no issues in our marriage and let it rip. Jesus god I'm thinking if we can just pretend long enough maybe it will come true.

I think...sure, it is healthy! Why not??? But. At the same time, I can't really connect with this sentiment that you express...or, at least. My interpretation of what you seem to be saying is in your heart: If you are praying to "jesus god" for an issue-free marriage ... and yet you are -- unwilling? -- to come into oneness with god's forgiveness...then what is the unwillingness about?

 

I mean...it could just be that the techniques/tools that YOU need have not yet come into your sphere of awareness. (It was like that, for me, for quite some time.) Since then, I've had to come to rely pretty much exclusively on spiritual-heart (rather than psychological, scientific-mental, intellectual) teachings to make a difference for me.

 

Ignore, ignore, ignore the rest of this...unless you feel an inner prompting to not ignore it -- these are links to spiritual (not, IMO, "religious") tools. Forgiveness is the highest form of self-interest and Miracle Forgiveness Rosary

 

Sending hugs, and wishing you the very best.

[Confused48]

So part of not forgiving, for me anyway, means wanting vengeance. If the AP is already suffering just bc I have my WS and AP knows this, then maybe that is enough vengeance. Maybe I can let go of seeking vengeance bc having the WS as my own when AP wanted WS.....

 

Maybe the best revenge is just to be happy with WS and have WS be happy with me.

[Noirek]

I just picked one to respond to but it's the aggregate of posts loudly cricitizing what you've misread as a non-forgiveness stance, picking apart and making erroneous assumptions. It was embarrassing. Blinding insensity and entitlement in a group of scarred individuals. I had to turn my head away in painful disbelief a few times.

 

What am I talking about? The audacity of a WS coming in here giving any opinion at all, much less judgmental ones about what forgiveness means. It's one thing to "forgive yourself," as the therapist has erncouraged, in order to get over crippling shame. It's another entirely to take that newfound voice and argue theoretical positions on forgiveness.

 

It's missing the point. Ask the therapist. Forgiving yourself to get rid of crippling shame, does not give you this right. Read MRs. John Adams. Her remorse included respect and clearly articulated understanding of how the BS felt. She was never arrogant.

 

 

I'm arrogent because I follow the dictionary and apply it to the OP's question? A definition that the OP also uses and follows? If you can have a good marriage and not forgive explain how to the OP. Because it seems that is what the OP wants. Not one person has actuallt discussed how I am wrong. Instead they have attacked me for being a WS. Told me I don't know anything. Told me I am arrogent. Skipped the parts where I have said the need to forgive is a matter of philosophy. I may be offending many BS on this thread. But this is one BS's thread and I'm not offending him.

 

I really am truly sorry that my words offend. I really think my posts are being taken wrong. Maybe it is my posting style. Maybe it is the words thenselves. Maybe it is the lable many can't see pass. Maybe it is because people sinply disagree and can't handle a view that goes against their own. I really don't know. I've reread my posts. And yes, some people might find it offensive I feel so strongly about sticking with what a word means or at least staying close to it. At least in discussion. Specially a discussion where the true meaning of forgiveness is also followed by the OP who is the one struggling with it. Or maybe it is because I haven't cowered and ran whipped. Which I would have if the OP hadn't encouraged me to stay.

[Noirek]

So part of not forgiving, for me anyway, means wanting vengeance. If the AP is already suffering just bc I have my WS and AP knows this, then maybe that is enough vengeance. Maybe I can let go of seeking vengeance bc having the WS as my own when AP wanted WS.....

 

Maybe the best revenge is just to be happy with WS and have WS be happy with me.

 

Vengence may also be to you a sense of justice. It can be a long time coming. However I do agree that if the AP really is still reaching out to your spouse then you really are a step up from those who WS is still pining for the AP. i really don't know if it will help you let go of the need for vengeance. But maybe it is the start. I really hope you do get to that place you want to be. And thank you for your kindness. And not being offended by me.

[autumnnight]

That's what u have right

 

I've notified this post.

[66Charger]

I think the big question is WHEN should you forgive. Should you forgive a WS who still harbors thoughts of the AP? How would you really know if they do or dont? Should you forgive a WS who thinks he/she could do it again? Should you forgive knowing there is still pain in your heart?

 

I once read forgiveness included the words "Go and sin no more" The key being "Sin no more".

 

For me, it is easier to forget than forgive. Sometimes when someone has done you so wrong, it is better to wipe every memory and simply move on. It is easier to think of that person as unimportant and not worth forgiveness.

 

I do agree that if you decide to stay with your WS, you need to forgive, WHEN they deserve forgiveness, without forgiveness, you may be posting on LS for a decade.

Edited July 11, 2015 by 66Charger

[AlwaysGrowing]

A dictionary definition can certainly shed light on what something means...or a general consensus....it does not give specifics for certain words/meanings.

 

 

Just as Michael Phelps might say I am more floating and flailing my arms about as opposed to my assertion that I am indeed swimming.

 

Just as ...yes that is a dog by definition....I can expand it and call it a Chihuahua. Or maybe a Chihuahua-Husky mix. All definitions are correct describing the same thing.

 

The English language expanded so that the nitty gritty details of exactly what I meant can now be understood more fully. That is why we give descriptor words to the listener.

 

To then have the listener to abruptly tell us to stop talking....that they are only willing to accept their version of what something is or isn't....and our view of it is idiotic....that there are no personal views on something as broad as "forgiveness"..what it means/looks like/feels like...to I ...is irrelevant. That Websters is the final authority over a feeling/internal process...and the only credible one at that.....speaks more to the person who wants to put parameters around something that is a personal process...and attach negative traits to those that do not follow that specific doctrine.

 

For many of us....resentment does not grow out of not forgiving. Nor are we slowly growing bitter by the second.

 

For myself....forgiveness is earned. I hold myself to the same standard.

 

Acceptance is what works for me...for those individuals that I no longer want in my life. I really am not interested in being their absolution...that is for them to attain all on their own. Acceptance for me...is a tool I use to process and then move the f#%* on with. No wasting my finite emotional energy on.

 

Forgiveness...is reserved for those that took the time/effort to earn it. Not only will it be forgiveness...they get respect. A bond was formed so deep with those individuals (receiving/giving) that I HAD to make a distinction between the two for myself...so as to not belittle or take away from the beauty...of genuine forgiveness.

[Confused48]

Thanks for continuing to post Noirek.

 

Vengence may also be to you a sense of justice.

 

Yes, I don't want over the top vengeance. What I meant was justice.

 

 

However I do agree that if the AP really is still reaching out to your spouse then you really are a step up from those who WS is still pining for the AP.

 

Do you mean that bc AP reaches out and WS ignores, that I'm more fortunate? Regardless, I suspect that despite WS ignoring the AP, WS still has feelings. Can't or won't act on them but..... The constant reaching out is I'm sure a calculated attempt to keep the feelings simmering and it likely has the intended affect. Which also keeps alive the thoughts of vengeance.

 

i really don't know if it will help you let go of the need for vengeance. But maybe it is the start.

 

Sorry if I'm dense about this section but can you explain?

 

 

I really hope you do get to that place you want to be. And thank you for your kindness. And not being offended by me.

 

Thank you! I don't think the others are terribly offended. Still, I don't understand the others being offended at all. I enjoy and appreciate their posts as well, when they are not challenging your tone or such. I'm just mystified as to why they are offended even slightly. I don't see anything to complain about from you and a lot of good insights.

[66Charger]

However I do agree that if the AP really is still reaching out to your spouse then you really are a step up from those who WS is still pining for the AP. .

 

If the AP is still reaching for your spouse, you are still in a state of war. The word vengence does not apply in this case. You need to make sure its 2 on 1 and not 1 on 2. Your spouse needs to be ACTIVELY engaged in COMPLETELY ending this. (Not just words) . This isn't over until the OM surrenders. Its a tad bit early for forgiveness, dont you think?

[drifter777]

Drifter, you won. Your wife had another man try to take her away and he lost. He failed. You got your wife back and have kept her now for decades. That man might still be fantasizing about how his life would be different if only you had not won. If that does not bring you some measure of comfort then you are a stone.

I didn't win anything. I did not fight for my wife or my marriage; not one bit. I turned my back on her and walked away. When she begged me to come home and I stupidly came back I would have left immediately if she gave me any indication that she had any interest or contact with OM. So no - I don't understand where you are right now. Not one bit. Trying to compete for your wife? Why would any man lower himself enough to do this? How could he accept that level of disrespect from the woman who vowed to forsake all others?

[Confused48]

I didn't win anything. I did not fight for my wife or my marriage; not one bit. I turned my back on her and walked away. When she begged me to come home and I stupidly came back I would have left immediately if she gave me any indication that she had any interest or contact with OM. So no - I don't understand where you are right now. Not one bit. Trying to compete for your wife? Why would any man lower himself enough to do this? How could he accept that level of disrespect from the woman who vowed to forsake all others?

 

Ok now that is offensive. I spoke to soon when I said no one was offensive.

[66Charger]

I think what is offensive is that you or your WS allow any reaching out to continue. How is this happenning? Email? Text? Voice? Why isnt this completely shut down?

 

Like drifter, I dont understand where your at. Know who is 100 PERCENT on your side before considering forgiveness. Not trying to be negative, but cmon man, you need to put a stop to that crap any way you can. Ruthelessly if need be. Today. If the 2 of you decided to reconcile, start reconciling already. AS A TEAM!

 

IMHO

Edited July 11, 2015 by 66Charger

[Noirek]

A dictionary definition can certainly shed light on what something means...or a general consensus....it does not give specifics for certain words/meanings.

 

 

Just as Michael Phelps might say I am more floating and flailing my arms about as opposed to my assertion that I am indeed swimming.

 

Just as ...yes that is a dog by definition....I can expand it and call it a Chihuahua. Or maybe a Chihuahua-Husky mix. All definitions are correct describing the same thing.

 

The English language expanded so that the nitty gritty details of exactly what I meant can now be understood more fully. That is why we give descriptor words to the listener.

 

To then have the listener to abruptly tell us to stop talking....that they are only willing to accept their version of what something is or isn't....and our view of it is idiotic....that there are no personal views on something as broad as "forgiveness"..what it means/looks like/feels like...to I ...is irrelevant. That Websters is the final authority over a feeling/internal process...and the only credible one at that.....speaks more to the person who wants to put parameters around something that is a personal process...and attach negative traits to those that do not follow that specific doctrine.

 

For many of us....resentment does not grow out of not forgiving. Nor are we slowly growing bitter by the second.

 

For myself....forgiveness is earned. I hold myself to the same standard.

 

Acceptance is what works for me...for those individuals that I no longer want in my life. I really am not interested in being their absolution...that is for them to attain all on their own. Acceptance for me...is a tool I use to process and then move the f#%* on with. No wasting my finite emotional energy on.

 

Forgiveness...is reserved for those that took the time/effort to earn it. Not only will it be forgiveness...they get respect. A bond was formed so deep with those individuals (receiving/giving) that I HAD to make a distinction between the two for myself...so as to not belittle or take away from the beauty...of genuine forgiveness.

So if forgiveness is when you graciously allow someone to become your equal again and no longer hold their past actions against them. What does not forgiving someone who is in your life look like? If you do not resent them for their actions. For you forgiveness is held only with an apology and reconciliation. Wrongs being righted. Respect being restored. I get that. So that is definetly the type of forgiveness that could not be missing in people staying married. Because what sort of marriage would it be without respect and with one spouse forever over the other.

 

one may expand on a word and still hold the meaning in tact. But while doing so there is always what the opposite looks like. And so, how could you not resent someone you live with and see everyday who you think of with little to no respect. Normal during the process but surely not something to be condoned or encouraged in the long wrong.

[Noirek]

Thanks for continuing to post Noirek.

 

 

 

Yes, I don't want over the top vengeance. What I meant was justice.

 

 

 

 

Do you mean that bc AP reaches out and WS ignores, that I'm more fortunate? Regardless, I suspect that despite WS ignoring the AP, WS still has feelings. Can't or won't act on them but..... The constant reaching out is I'm sure a calculated attempt to keep the feelings simmering and it likely has the intended affect. Which also keeps alive the thoughts of vengeance.

 

 

 

Sorry if I'm dense about this section but can you explain?

 

 

 

 

Thank you! I don't think the others are terribly offended. Still, I don't understand the others being offended at all. I enjoy and appreciate their posts as well, when they are not challenging your tone or such. I'm just mystified as to why they are offended even slightly. I don't see anything to complain about from you and a lot of good insights.

I am not sure why you feel your spouse still has feelings. If they do, they would respond. More so for females. There is always a way to break NC. There are always methods to get around surveillance if a person wants it enough. If there were any feelings I would say your spouse has pretty good control of them or they are minimal. I am not overly curious on the continued contact. If you want to get ahold of a person, you can. And it has never been easier in this day or age.

 

i mean on the second part that instead of focusing solely on vengenace your start would be thinking less of him getting his just desserts

[drifter777]

This is getting silly. People will define forgiveness however it feel right to them. These labels we use to represent emotions are not meant to be so strictly interpreted. The best example of all? What is love? Do you care one bit about how the dictionary defines love? Forgiveness, happiness, love - these things are defined by each individual person.