Hope Shimmers Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) ------------Please see final update on this topic from the thread starter---------- I have thought about this - and thought about this - to the point of almost getting migraines this week, so I hope some others can offer input. Hopefully I still have enough friends here for that.... Ex-MM has called me several times this week to talk about our daughter. For background, we were in an 8+ year A (long-distance), he was separated at first, then went back to wife, now is divorced from her. VERY long story short. But at the end I had his daughter, born at 22 weeks and she died due to placenta previa and prematurity within 20 minutes of birth. He refused to talk about it. He has only wanted to talk about our daughter this week. Two phone calls where he asked only details about that day (really hard for me). He asked for photos, which I sent. Crying, etc, because he wasn't there. The end of the second phone call, he said, "Can you ever forgive me for not being there for you?" I didn't answer, and haven't answered. My question is, can anyone forgive that? Realistically, he was over 1000 miles away, so he could never have been there in time. Not logistically. But he was not there in phone calls either, and that's what I'm struggling with. Is it forgivable? Can people forego this kind of thing and still forgive overall? Edited July 22, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to update Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 OMG now he's making you RELIVE it??!? What kind of sick psychopath have you got yourself tangled up with, Hope? Shimmer him right on out of your life. NOW. Before he claims any more damage to your soul. 19 Link to post Share on other sites
RoseVille Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Forgiveness is always possible, even for the most heinous of crimes. Forgiveness is for you, not him. 13 Link to post Share on other sites
Sassy Girl Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Why are you even entertaining him? You owe him nothing. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
goodyblue Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Forgiveness is always possible, even for the most heinous of crimes. Forgiveness is for you, not him. Yep. I agree with this. But Hope, the one thing you have to do for yourself it's not forget. Don't ever forget that he is capable of leaving you alone when you need him most. That is something you cannot abide. Don't let him hurt you any more. You are better than that. Xx 13 Link to post Share on other sites
RoseVille Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Yep. I agree with this. But Hope, the one thing you have to do for yourself it's not forget. Don't ever forget that he is capable of leaving you alone when you need him most. That is something you cannot abide. Don't let him hurt you any more. You are better than that. Xx Yup. And note: You don't have to tell him you forgive him. In fact, I wouldn't. I'd just forgive him in your heart, and discontinue contact. Let him seek redemption on his own terms. 11 Link to post Share on other sites
Josmatjes Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I think it's healthy for you to forgive him. But on that note, do not let this man back in your life. Just tell him you forgive him and get off the phone and block him already. People don't change. He is the same except divorced. You are better than him!! 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Tullyseptember Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hope I have not experienced the loss of a child as you have with no support or compassion from the Father. I can only imagine how painful it must have been. If speaking with the ex-mm is trigging you at all it would be best to go complete n/c on him. Forgiveness comes within and if you don't feel it speaking with him will only set you back:( 3 Link to post Share on other sites
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Lip service, IMO. He knows good and well that it's a major point of contention so he's working through that first to worm his way back in. I agree with OpenBook, wash him outta your hair. Forgive or not but don't let him manipulate. 8 Link to post Share on other sites
Southern Sun Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hi HS... That is so tough. I tend to want to forgive people. Not forgiving hurts, and so I'm driven to forgive, just to ease that pain, if it makes any sense. In this case, perhaps you have felt that forgiving him might be an insult to your daughter. However, I actually don't think it is. This is between you and him, that forgiveness (or lack thereof). She is completely innocent. When I think about forgiveness in general, it would be very difficult for me to say that there are situations that I would NEVER forgive. How can you be sure? That is limiting and doesn't allow for a very important and most basic human emotion - love. Your situation was horrific, for both of you. He handled it terribly. There are no excuses for his behavior. But people do screw up, sometimes really badly, and they can really, really regret it later. His reaction could be a reflection of really weak character. Or it could be a sign of a very scared man in a very weak moment. You would know best. Perhaps it's best to put it in perspective with everything else. What else are you seeing from him that would make forgiveness an option? He can't expect that in a bubble. In light of all that's happened, it would need to be accompanied by other changes, consistencies in behavior, that are showing you that he is someone you can trust. Maybe not to have a relationship with in that way again. But at least someone you can trust with your forgiveness. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
AnotherSadSong Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 A toughie. Is there somehow to find out if the forgiveness is for you and not only being done to relieve him of guilt. It should be for both of you with the majority of consideration for you. Can he gift you this? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Popsicle Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I don't really understand why you continue to talk to him. This is no different than the BS's who stay but continue to harbor resentment and/or contempt for their WS. If you choose to continue to do such a thing (talk to him) then you might as well forgive him and forgive him fully and have a worthwhile relationship. You're wasting your time even talking to him if you can't. So if you can't, then stop talking to him altogether and start with a clean slate with someone else. Close that chapter. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
jwi71 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I have thought about this - and thought about this - to the point of almost getting migraines this week, so I hope some others can offer input. Hopefully I still have enough friends here for that.... Ex-MM has called me several times this week to talk about our daughter. For background, we were in an 8+ year A (long-distance), he was separated at first, then went back to wife, now is divorced from her. VERY long story short. But at the end I had his daughter, born at 22 weeks and she died due to placenta previa and prematurity within 20 minutes of birth. He refused to talk about it. He has only wanted to talk about our daughter this week. Two phone calls where he asked only details about that day (really hard for me). He asked for photos, which I sent. Crying, etc, because he wasn't there. The end of the second phone call, he said, "Can you ever forgive me for not being there for you?" I didn't answer, and haven't answered. My question is, can anyone forgive that? Realistically, he was over 1000 miles away, so he could never have been there in time. Not logistically. But he was not there in phone calls either, and that's what I'm struggling with. Is it forgivable? Can people forego this kind of thing and still forgive overall? Forgiveness, at first glance, seems utterly unfair. It seems that when we forgive we are "washing away" the wrongs committed upon us by others. To somehow make THEIR actions "ok" But that would be wrong. Forgiveness isn't about him. Its about YOU. Its about letting go of the past, the hurt, the anger, and the injustice of it all. Its about putting down that weight you carry. The past is done. It cannot be revisited. It cannot be undone. It cannot be changed. It simply IS. Yet here and now, it draws back like some chain you have shackled yourself with. To ask if you can forgive him is to admit you haven't forgiven yourself. Just as one cannot love another until they learn to love themselves one cannot forgive another w/o first forgiving of himself/herself. Forgiveness is truly for YOU. And when you have it it will naturally flow to him. And others. You might be surprised by the weight you carry now when its gone tomorrow. To me, you are not forgiving yourself for the A. I know your post is trying to focus on particularly horrible event - but the reason he couldn't attend was...correct me if Im wrong...he was M and couldn't otherwise be there. It all ties together for me. The A, the pregnancy, the not being there and the tragedy. You cannot simply claim to forgive one part and not the others. Its all the same. And...maybe its a progression...but that doesn't feel right to me. No amount of IC can do this. Only you. You must find the strength, the love, the faith in yourself to forgive yourself. Once you do...this post and your way forward in your life will be much .... lighter. I hope you choose, and yes its a choice, to do so. (Hey, if I can do it - YOU can too!) 6 Link to post Share on other sites
Lovemesomehim Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hope, I know some of that pain. I lost a son when he was six weeks old. His Dad and I lived 1000 miles apart. Dad came for the birth but wasn't there when our son passed or there for the funeral. Devastating time. A loss you never heal from. I too had to relive that pain to his father ten years after his passing. It hit harder to tell the story to him. My pain still runs deep. When all my children nieces and nephews are together, I always feel like there's one child missing. I wish you peace. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
MuddyFootprints Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 True forgiveness will come or it will not. It will come when you are ready for it. I hate watching you willingly drink his poison. 8 Link to post Share on other sites
Lovemesomehim Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Oh I didn't answer your question. Forgive him. Not for him but for you. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
lgspot Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I think it's healthy for you to forgive him. But on that note, do not let this man back in your life. Just tell him you forgive him and get off the phone and block him already. People don't change. He is the same except divorced. You are better than him!! Hope, You have many friends here. That does not change. This is a very cruel and cold man. What he did at the time was horrendous. There were so many things he could have done back then for both you and your daughter's memory, yet he was absent in body and spirit. Now is too d*mn little, too d*mn late in my opinion. From what has been written, he showed absolutely no fatherly responsibility at the time... That was then. Now that he is divorced these years later and alone, he doesn't want to be alone. This is not a remorseful man. This is a Machiavellian manipulator using the gravest of tragedies to slither his way back into your life. So cruel! 1000 miles is nothing to a man when you are talking about your child and the mother of your child in her time of need. Forgivable? I think yes it is forgivable and necessary for you to move forward with YOUR life. Your life without him in it. Hope, I've followed your story and marveled at your strength in overcoming the passing of your daughter and the betrayal of MM. In your recovery, you helped many people here on LoveShack. You deserve so much better than this man. If this wasn't your life and story, but someone else's here, and they asked for your advice and opinion, what would you say to them? I'm sorry for the MM's timing. Seems you've had a lot on your plate. Blessings 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Popsicle Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 One thing that comes to mind, Hope, is that he did not and will not ever love you the way that you loved him. You deserve better. You deserve love. Even if he in fact feels guilt (which we don't know), guilt=/=love. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
HappyAgain2014 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I understand the concept of forgiveness being for you but I can't honestly say I can forgive truly hurtful things perpetuated by someone I love and trust. I tend to be a one and done person. He's not worthy of your forgiveness. His motive seems to be himself, not you. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Hope Shimmers Posted July 8, 2015 Author Share Posted July 8, 2015 Thanks so much everyone. I go back and forth regarding if forgiveness is for me vs him, to be honest. But when he has spent so much time talking about our daughter, and just asking about the details, it makes me wonder. He has not asked the question after that, regarding if there is a potential for any kind of relationship with him. The answer is no. Link to post Share on other sites
MuddyFootprints Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) I don't think true/pure forgiveness is necessarily a conscious decision. And, I don't think you are ready to forgive. Edited July 8, 2015 by MuddyFootprints 4 Link to post Share on other sites
minimariah Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I don't think true/pure forgiveness is a necessarily a conscious decision. i agree. i think it comes with time + personal growth. just the other day, i saw an old friend of mine in passing (she screwed me up & "betrayed" me business and finance wise & since then, we went our separate ways) & felt nothing. i felt no anger, no rage, wished her absolutely no harm. i didn't imagine beating the sh*t out of her, i literally felt nothing. even more surprising, i felt the GOOD for her... as in, "wishing you the best" type of feeling. i realized in that moment, that i forgave her. i also agree with other posters that he is trying to manipulate his way to you through bonding over the death of your child. how long has he been contacting you? does he call, texts, sends letter...? i know you said he sent some kind of gift or something and that he has been very patient and persistent. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Friskyone4u Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 My big question would be why out of the blue he wants back in your life for whatever reason. I think I know the answer but Ill let you decide that. You are too smart not to figure that one out. You do not owe hiom crap. He decided to go back to his wife. End of story. Keep it that way 3 Link to post Share on other sites
minimariah Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 also, Hope... i know you're vulnerable right now due to the recent events. be careful and don't let your xMM to use those cracks to get back in your life. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
RoseVille Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I understand the concept of forgiveness being for you but I can't honestly say I can forgive truly hurtful things perpetuated by someone I love and trust. I tend to be a one and done person. He's not worthy of your forgiveness. His motive seems to be himself, not you. Forgiveness doesn't mean there's a second chance. And forgiveness isn't for him; his worth is irrelevant. It's Hope's worth that's important. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
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