whichwayisup Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I have thought about this - and thought about this - to the point of almost getting migraines this week, so I hope some others can offer input. Hopefully I still have enough friends here for that.... Ex-MM has called me several times this week to talk about our daughter. For background, we were in an 8+ year A (long-distance), he was separated at first, then went back to wife, now is divorced from her. VERY long story short. But at the end I had his daughter, born at 22 weeks and she died due to placenta previa and prematurity within 20 minutes of birth. He refused to talk about it. He has only wanted to talk about our daughter this week. Two phone calls where he asked only details about that day (really hard for me). He asked for photos, which I sent. Crying, etc, because he wasn't there. The end of the second phone call, he said, "Can you ever forgive me for not being there for you?" I didn't answer, and haven't answered. My question is, can anyone forgive that? Realistically, he was over 1000 miles away, so he could never have been there in time. Not logistically. But he was not there in phone calls either, and that's what I'm struggling with. Is it forgivable? Can people forego this kind of thing and still forgive overall? He's trying another tactic to get to you, in the lowest and scummiest way possible. Shame on him. He is using your daughters death to manipulate you into contact again, making it all about him and how bad he feels for not being there for you. He wants you to feel bad for him.... I'm sure he does feel horrible but the timing of this is very VERY suspicious. You can forgive him quietly if you'd like to, but you don't have to tell him you have. Forgiving gives you peace of mind, forgiving means you move on. 7 Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Thanks so much everyone. I go back and forth regarding if forgiveness is for me vs him, to be honest. But when he has spent so much time talking about our daughter, and just asking about the details, it makes me wonder. He has not asked the question after that, regarding if there is a potential for any kind of relationship with him. The answer is no. Not yet...My guess is, it's coming. He'll extend ann olive branch, to keep in touch, to ask you to be 'friends' and just update on each others lives. Honestly, there's absolutely point in keeping in touch. I hope he respects your decision and leaves you alone. If he truly cares about your well being he will stop. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Raena Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Oh Hope, your (ex)asshat and my (ex)asshat must be on the same wavelength because I've gotten similar calls/texts in the last week too. The only thing I can think is... go ahead and let it go... forgive him and move on. Get your closure, you need it to let go. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
MuddyFootprints Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 He won't stop. Not as long as you entertain his engagement. You won't stop either. I kinda wanna to shake you. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
GypsumSatellite Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hope, you've been a beacon of support to so many who post here. This tactic of your MMs is very much out of my MMs little black book on how to wiggle into the mind of someone who has moved on from him. Granted, my MM doesn't have such a painful memory to use against me, but he does have something that tweaks me in its own way. Personal enough and that will always remind me of how we began. It can reduce me into tears, but it doesn't take my breath out of me like your memory does. Your MM is being cruel, even if it doesn't feel that way because he's likely framing the discussion in a carefully constructed way to make it seem like genuine concern. Why now, why does he want forgiveness now? Why does he want in your brain now? No good will come of it, he has shown time adn again he will not be there when you need him to prop the weight of the world on his shoulders and a true partner does that. A true partner, even an MM with better intentions than most, will shoulder and show up and be there for their love. You deserves such love and peace and nothing but light. Please let him descend into the dark place he belongs in. He doesn't deserve forgiveness. He deserves to be forgotten. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
writergal Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 i agree. i think it comes with time + personal growth. just the other day, i saw an old friend of mine in passing (she screwed me up & "betrayed" me business and finance wise & since then, we went our separate ways) & felt nothing. i felt no anger, no rage, wished her absolutely no harm. i didn't imagine beating the sh*t out of her, i literally felt nothing. even more surprising, i felt the GOOD for her... as in, "wishing you the best" type of feeling. i realized in that moment, that i forgave her. i also agree with other posters that he is trying to manipulate his way to you through bonding over the death of your child. how long has he been contacting you? does he call, texts, sends letter...? i know you said he sent some kind of gift or something and that he has been very patient and persistent. This is the first thought that came into my head about him. What are his motives, stirring up such a tramatic event like that? Are his motives self-serving (probably) or genuine (highly doubtful)? Only you can decide that as you know him, we don't. If you do forgive him, it should be so that you can heal, and release you from his drama. He's divorced now, so he's probably testing the water to see if he can push-pull you again, and he went about it in a very cruel way, bringing up your daughter. He is lower than pond scum that guy. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Noideanow Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 You seem so hard, as if you have a thick shell around you:( maybe im lacking what you have but i cant help but think that you all seem so selfcentered, i know it must be some way of trying to protect yourself?/ but what if the skin grows so thick you can no longer feel, As far as i understand you participated in the lacking relationship for many years yourself so why so hard on him when he was following your lead- i know one can see this from many perspectives, but you showed him you accepted where he was (pregnant or not), so subconciously what we tell such a man is to stay where he is i think:confused: Are you a woman? Where is the softness, maybe it is your ways of writing that makes you all seem so hard and in real life you are something sweet:) or i am crazy for judging like that;) we each have our own way of coping maybe:confused: Link to post Share on other sites
CrystalCastles Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 My question is, can anyone forgive that? Realistically, he was over 1000 miles away, so he could never have been there in time. Not logistically. But he was not there in phone calls either, and that's what I'm struggling with. Is it forgivable? Can people forego this kind of thing and still forgive overall? Hope, this dude is an insensitive sack of sh**. And those are my nice words for him. I read your story, it was so sad. He abandoned you in your time of need. He left you to deal with everything all alone. Please don't give this idiot the time of day- he's not even worth your wiping your boots on him. Forgive him? Since when does he deserve your forgiveness? Continue no contact, don't answer any emails, phone calls, whatever. He's asking you to relive your worst nightmare because he's a selfish turd. Not that "selfish" is a big surprise of a characteristic when it comes to MM. Stay strong. Sending you hugs. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Hope Shimmers Posted July 8, 2015 Author Share Posted July 8, 2015 also, Hope... i know you're vulnerable right now due to the recent events. be careful and don't let your xMM to use those cracks to get back in your life. I just wanted to reply to this particular question... I understand what you are saying. However, the recent events in my life were a complete mistake. My goal at this point is to just forget those few weeks ever happened. A really bad decision, really bad timing, and nothing I would ever do in real life. Thanks minimariah 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Hope Shimmers Posted July 8, 2015 Author Share Posted July 8, 2015 Thank you all so much. I can't reply to all but I have read and re-read your posts. I appreciate them more than I can say. I am not going back to him - part of me just thought he deserved the answers. Yet they were hard. He asked all of the details (when she died, what I did right after and what I was doing right before, what happened after, etc). I never thought he would ask those questions. She only lived 20 minutes but he has asked about every minute and then what I did after that. Uggh. It's hard. I know I can't hold him accountable for not being there physically, but he wasn't there in any sense, by phone or email or any other way I contacted him then. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Poppy47 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I could never forgive him, Poppy. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Owl6118 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 My goal at this point is to just forget those few weeks ever happened. A really bad decision, really bad timing, and nothing I would ever do in real life. Real people were hurt--you, but others as well who had no say in your choices. Friction was introduced into the relationship beween a newborn child's co-parents, or existing friction exacerbated instead of healed. Nothing about that is not real life. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
RoseVille Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I just wanted to reply to this particular question... I understand what you are saying. However, the recent events in my life were a complete mistake. My goal at this point is to just forget those few weeks ever happened. A really bad decision, really bad timing, and nothing I would ever do in real life. But... It was and is real life. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Popsicle Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 On The real life vs. not real life thing.... Many people think that because it was just talking on the Internet, it was just pretend and not real life. Maybe this is how Hope and the other involved parties see it. Link to post Share on other sites
Popsicle Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Maybe Hope thinks there is no risk in just talking (ie with the xMM now), but I beg to differ.... Link to post Share on other sites
RainDown Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Sorry, but some things are simply unforgivable. I do not believe one has to forgive the wrongs of others in order to "move on" or "heal" or "come to peace" or whatever. Some people simply perform unforgivable acts - which is about THEM, not me. Believe me, people have sh*t on me too in life. It is what it is. They are what they are. They did what they did. I don't hold on to anger or resentment or depression about it, but I have no particular need to "forgive" the bad behavior. I don't hang around for a repeat performance, either. Life is too short to live in the past and dwell on the misdeeds of others. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
txgrl Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hope, I'm going to say a couple of things that everyone here feels and is using different words to say .. No matter what you think or say , since you are still in contact with xMM , you are very close to rekindling the relationship . IMHO, you are already back in an emotional A with him . I know it doesn't feel that way but why is it that you cannot completely go NC and let yourself heal completely ? You cannot dismiss the other recent event as 'another mistake'. You are a very highly educated and smart woman . Please learn from your experiences . You cannot have a healthy fulfilling relationship till you feel healthy and happy . Forgive / don't forgive ? That is your call . Do what you need to do to move forward . This was your experience , your child you lost . We are here for support and all anyone here can tell you is that keeping contact with xMM is shooting yourself in the foot .. Yet again .. Best. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
HappyAgain2014 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Forgiveness doesn't mean there's a second chance. And forgiveness isn't for him; his worth is irrelevant. It's Hope's worth that's important. I agree however forgiveness shouldn't be asked for nor given when manipulation is part of the equation. He wants the forgiveness for himself which is very telling of his motives. Link to post Share on other sites
AnotherSadSong Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I agree however forgiveness shouldn't be asked for nor given when manipulation is part of the equation. He wants the forgiveness for himself which is very telling of his motives. Your head must be going in circles and I understand that. The emotions and feeling are difficult to manage in these situations. Your heart wishes to contemplate love, forgiveness, and hope. Is he going to drain all you have to offer again? Link to post Share on other sites
the_artist_1970 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I have thought about this - and thought about this - to the point of almost getting migraines this week, so I hope some others can offer input. Hopefully I still have enough friends here for that.... Ex-MM has called me several times this week to talk about our daughter. For background, we were in an 8+ year A (long-distance), he was separated at first, then went back to wife, now is divorced from her. VERY long story short. But at the end I had his daughter, born at 22 weeks and she died due to placenta previa and prematurity within 20 minutes of birth. He refused to talk about it. He has only wanted to talk about our daughter this week. Two phone calls where he asked only details about that day (really hard for me). He asked for photos, which I sent. Crying, etc, because he wasn't there. The end of the second phone call, he said, "Can you ever forgive me for not being there for you?" I didn't answer, and haven't answered. My question is, can anyone forgive that? Realistically, he was over 1000 miles away, so he could never have been there in time. Not logistically. But he was not there in phone calls either, and that's what I'm struggling with. Is it forgivable? Can people forego this kind of thing and still forgive overall? Hope, I want to find a couple of guys to take the man out to the woodshed. He is so selfish and self centered. Now he wants to force you to forgive him! I think you are doing yourself a dis-justice by even talking to him. He is not a nice guy. He was capable of putting you through the worse kind of pain possible. Do you really want to keep talking about that painful experience? Yes, you have to forgive for yourself, but forgiving him doesn't mean reconciliation with this narcissist and you don't owe him any communication at all. You two didn't share anything. He planted his seed and left you alone to bear the burden of losing a child. When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hope....you are such a precious and giving person. And when men take advantage of that precious nature...and then hurt you...and even hide it while trying to appear all righteous...it just makes my blood boil. Every single man that I know of who has hurt you is a selfish narcissist who thinks way more highly of himself than he ought to. There, I feel better now. ha But really, I wouldn't just work out any forgiveness in your own heart and never talk to this man again. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
81West Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Men like this are not loyal to people, they are loyal to their need of them. When their needs shift, so does their loyalty. He's in a place right now, just out of a failed marriage and needing a soft place to land, even it is in his own head, redefined as a man who is retroactively "doing the right thing". Don't agonize too much on this one Hope. 7 Link to post Share on other sites
LovelyBrown Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I have thought about this - and thought about this - to the point of almost getting migraines this week, so I hope some others can offer input. Hopefully I still have enough friends here for that.... Ex-MM has called me several times this week to talk about our daughter. For background, we were in an 8+ year A (long-distance), he was separated at first, then went back to wife, now is divorced from her. VERY long story short. But at the end I had his daughter, born at 22 weeks and she died due to placenta previa and prematurity within 20 minutes of birth. He refused to talk about it. He has only wanted to talk about our daughter this week. Two phone calls where he asked only details about that day (really hard for me). He asked for photos, which I sent. Crying, etc, because he wasn't there. The end of the second phone call, he said, "Can you ever forgive me for not being there for you?" I didn't answer, and haven't answered. My question is, can anyone forgive that? Realistically, he was over 1000 miles away, so he could never have been there in time. Not logistically. But he was not there in phone calls either, and that's what I'm struggling with. Is it forgivable? Can people forego this kind of thing and still forgive overall? Like others said, forgiveness is for you! do it for yourself, on your own time and ONLY when you're ready. Just make sure that it comes from a genuine place, from your true self and not in a way that feeds the ego, basically you shouldn't have a self talk about how good you are because you forgave him. When you forgive him you'll let go of many painful things but, sometimes, that takes time. Link to post Share on other sites
lookingforclosure Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Forgive him for YOU...you are a strong, caring, loving woman who has helped so many people on here. He knows there is nothing that will ever change what he did and didn't do...but you can make peace within yourself. I know it was agonizing having to share all the details with him, but he needs to be aware just how much you were hurting with the loss of your daughter and his actions there after. (Hugs)** Link to post Share on other sites
txgrl Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 With due respect to Hope and everyone else who looks at this differently .. But .. Hope is ~50, very intelligent, gives excellent advice . She CHOSE to keep in touch with this guy while he was married , after he went back to his wife , when te wife apparently knew about their 'friendship' , after he got her pregnant and refused to acknowledge their baby , after he put her through the horrific ordeal of dealing with the loss of a baby alone .. It seems like she's ( almost ) already has forgiven him ( making excuses for him , how he couldn't have come for his baby) .. She's talking to him about something that brings back extremely painful memories .. I jut think she sometimes plays the innocent victim that she's not . She's a victim , sure , but she was a willing participant in a lot of the hurt inflicted on her . Nobody's going to judge her if she decides to pursue an open relationship with this guy but she needs to process all the hurt , the negativity out of her system first ., Hope u take this in the right light that this post is intended to be , hope. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
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