Forgive or Not? [Updated]

[RoseVille]

Rose, I like and respect you so much.

 

I do want him at some level. You are correct. It has been REALLY hard for me to move past this. But I will move past it. I hope you can believe in me. I'm trying to be honest on here. And with myself.

 

Okay, so the next question to ask is: Why? Why do you want him, on any level?

 

I know you're trying, but you're trying for the wrong thing. You're trying to find a way to have him in your life. Why not try for an emotionally healthy outcome instead?

[Lovebug66]

I understand wanting him on some level too - I know my H is no good for me, but now that I have rejected him he is trying to give me all those things I desperately wanted for so long. It's hard to deal with. I think part always wants to believe this is the time it is going to be different, and a lot of times it is different...to start. They do it for them, because they are lonely or dont want to lose or whatever it is they want. And they dont always realize how manipulative or selfish they are being, its all justified up in their heads. My H thinks he does it out of the goodness of his heart. But once I dont react to it the way he wants, bam, back to the same old BS. I have been reading up on cognitive disonance and it strikes a chord with me. I imagine with you too, all you have been thru with him makes it even harder to just give it all up. It feels like such a failure, a waste of time, energy, emotions, everything.

 

Take care of you sweetie. I think it's good you are giving yourself space from him. I wish you all the best.

Edited July 20, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Mount]

To be fair, as "Hope" mentioned, she is trying, she is dating others. But apparently the un-conscious emotion outweighs the logical thinking. It could be "Hope" 's mind wants to have clean-cut with XMM, but her heart still wants to be XMM.

 

Okay, so the next question to ask is: Why? Why do you want him, on any level?

 

I know you're trying, but you're trying for the wrong thing. You're trying to find a way to have him in your life. Why not try for an emotionally healthy outcome instead?

[anika99]

It seems like many people missed the part where I said I refused to see him and told him we shouldn't talk anymore. I am totally aware - and he said the same thing - that there needs to be A LOT more time for him to get solid on his feet and figure out his way through life at this point.

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone missed that part, however you have often said that you are not talking to him anymore and have adopted strict no contact only to come back later and say that you have been talking to him. I don't think this time is any different. I looked back at your old threads today (something maybe you should do too) both under this username and your last username and it appears that you have actually been in contact with this guy a lot over the years a lot more than you have been in no contact. It seems that every time you try no contact within a couple of months he pops up and reels you back in emotionally. You probably think you have some unbreakable bond with him because you still have all this chemistry all these years later but I think it's only because you have never truly let him go. You have always held onto this tiny hope that you would have him back someday.

 

 

I have some experience with exes cropping back up in my life and I have found that they always appear much improved and more enlightened at first but then as I spent time with them I was amazed at how much they were actually exactly the same. I don't think men like your exmm ever truly change at their core unless they have hit some sort of rock bottom and even then they still need some intensive therapy to make any lasting changes.

 

 

All that being said, I think you should just go for it. Why drag it out and pussy foot around it. Just do it. It will either be a smashing success or a dismal failure but you won't know which until you do it, so just do it.

[Morbius]

Thanks Morbius for your spot-on post earlier in this thread and for talking to me for the past hour and a half. I could not ask for a better friend.

 

He made me see that I am just questioning things that I should have shut down years ago. Even if it's forgivable, it's too little and TOO late. It shouldn't have taken years after the birth of our daughter for him to wake up. Thanks for getting me back into objectivity Morbius.

 

BTW, when I said 'chemistry', I didn't mean sexual chemistry. I meant emotional chemistry.

 

I think I mentioned awhile ago that ex-MM is of Puerto Rican descent. So Spanish is his first language; it's my second language. Most of our interactions/conversations were always in Spanish, and the one the other day was in Spanish, but it had been awhile for me so I was struggling a little bit with the total context.

 

Hope, I'm sorry you feel beaten up. It's hard when we watch someone we care about (yes, even random internet strangers) choose to repeatedly hurt themselves. I don't know you, but I still care, and the more contact you seem to have with this man the more pain and confusion seems to roll off your posts.

 

Did you tell him you shouldn't talk or told him you wouldn't talk? I don't expect you to tell us, but how did you end the conversation? Was it like 'we shouldn't talk, but I'm leaving the door open so we can discuss how we shouldn't be discussing it again at a later date,' or was it more like 'call me when you've been single at least a year and you've got your **** together'?

 

I shouldn't be involved in my affair at all, but knowing I shouldnt, and saying I shouldn't, doesn't mean jack **** since I still choose to do it.

 

To answer your question, I believe most people are redeemable (with a few exceptions). Let's face it though. Change is hard. The best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour, and why is that? It's because most people want the easy road, the quiet life, the status quo.

 

Maybe he is redeemable, but just not for you. Did you ever considered that? Story time. I have an ex - and oh how I loved that idiot - who for whatever reason, could just not tell me the truth, about anything. It was like an allergy. He lied about the little things, and he lied about the big things. He lied because he thought it was what I wanted to hear, and he lied because he wanted the quiet life. He kept on lying, until we split up because he cheated on me. He begged, pleaded and apologised and we got back together. He carried on lying right up until he lied about leaving me for someone else. Then he was gone.

 

I put my life back together, re planned my future and got on with living the life I wanted. After five years, he came sniffing around again. Guess what? The very first thing he said to me, after five damn years of doing fine, better than fine, was another lie. I called him out on it, and he just lied some more. He cannot, will not, tell me the truth. It's like the pattern has been set between us now, and the only way to stop this pattern, is for me to stop it.

 

Another five years passed, and just recently, he got in touch again. He is still lying. Ten damn years and he is still exactly the same man he always has been, treating me in exactly the same way he always did. Once relationship patterns have been established, they are very hard to break. I have FINALLY cottoned onto the fact that the only way to stop his lies, is to stop even listening to him. I will never communicate with him again, and I've done my damnedest to ensure he can't communicate with me.

 

One other thing for you to consider. The people I know who have changed dramatically have usually done so after some major/traumatic life event. This man lost a child, and he carried on taking care of number one. If there was a time for him to reflect, take stock and think about being a better man, a decent man, that was it. It passed and he just watched as the chance flew by. The timing of this and the way he's gone about the whole thing makes me suspicious. It doesn't make me think he is changing, just that he's lonely.

 

I think you deserve so much more.

 

Nailed it!!! Gloria, you hit the proverbial bulls eye with your introspective posts here. But this one paragraph summed it up perfectly.

Most was discussed in our talk, but your adding that last word "lonely" was for me an "aha" moment.

 

Great insight!!!

[beach]

Yes, he is still paying, although he doesn't always make the payments on time. Right now he's paid through June 2015 (payment was due on July 1st which he missed). He pays, but late. He has several more years before it's paid off.

 

He was married 32 years to a woman who never worked in her life so he's paying alimony and also is making the house payment on the house which he gave to her in the divorce. To do all that he is working 2 jobs, about 70 hours a week.

 

Are you suggesting his motivation is to get out of paying off the rest of his loan to me?

 

Not necessarily. Was just wondering about his obligation to repay you... And if he was still paying. Despite his hardships, which he created - he still owes you.

 

He could have had her work, but he didn't.

 

He could have had half the house (and used the money to repay you) but he didn't.

 

It makes me think he makes poor choices.

 

 

And as you said - he does know he doesn't have to work as hard IF he gets you to take him back. So I guess he does have a motive.

 

But it will never wipe away how poorly he's treated you in the past... Especially since he had no intention to repay you.

 

His character seems to be misguided, at best.

[Hope Shimmers]

Not necessarily. Was just wondering about his obligation to repay you... And if he was still paying. Despite his hardships, which he created - he still owes you.

 

He could have had her work, but he didn't.

 

He could have had half the house (and used the money to repay you) but he didn't.

 

It makes me think he makes poor choices.

 

And as you said - he does know he doesn't have to work as hard IF he gets you to take him back. So I guess he does have a motive.

 

But it will never wipe away how poorly he's treated you in the past... Especially since he had no intention to repay you.

 

His character seems to be misguided, at best.

 

He would continue to pay it back even if we were together. Even if that's the ONLY positive thing I can say about this guy, that I do know.

 

His wife refused to work. She had no skills so it would have been a minimum wage job and he would have had to drive her as she did not drive. They had one car. He talked to me about that many times over the years and no, he didn't think it was worth it to force her.

 

As for the house, they were upside down on the mortgage so selling it was impossible as they had no money to take to the table at the closing. So in short, there was no "half the money to repay me".

 

I don't know why I am bothering to refute these things.

[Hope Shimmers]

I don't think anyone missed that part, however you have often said that you are not talking to him anymore and have adopted strict no contact only to come back later and say that you have been talking to him. I don't think this time is any different. I looked back at your old threads today (something maybe you should do too) both under this username and your last username and it appears that you have actually been in contact with this guy a lot over the years a lot more than you have been in no contact. It seems that every time you try no contact within a couple of months he pops up and reels you back in emotionally. You probably think you have some unbreakable bond with him because you still have all this chemistry all these years later but I think it's only because you have never truly let him go. You have always held onto this tiny hope that you would have him back someday.

 

I have some experience with exes cropping back up in my life and I have found that they always appear much improved and more enlightened at first but then as I spent time with them I was amazed at how much they were actually exactly the same. I don't think men like your exmm ever truly change at their core unless they have hit some sort of rock bottom and even then they still need some intensive therapy to make any lasting changes.

 

All that being said, I think you should just go for it. Why drag it out and pussy foot around it. Just do it. It will either be a smashing success or a dismal failure but you won't know which until you do it, so just do it.

 

True. I was never big on NC, and we had contact over the years for one reason or another.

 

You are right as well when you say that that people don't really change (that's the message I'm getting from your second paragraph above).

 

All that being said, I think you should just go for it. Why drag it out and pussy foot around it. Just do it. It will either be a smashing success or a dismal failure but you won't know which until you do it, so just do it.

 

Just do WHAT? I'm not going to do anything.

[Hope Shimmers]

Okay, so the next question to ask is: Why? Why do you want him, on any level?

 

I know you're trying, but you're trying for the wrong thing. You're trying to find a way to have him in your life. Why not try for an emotionally healthy outcome instead?

 

I don't know.

 

When you were in the A and you knew it was wrong and it probably would never work out, yet you wanted him - why did you want him?

[Mount]

I put your name in parentheses because I did not want mix the regular sentence with your name, I did not know it would bother you.

 

 

Also I did not know, suddenly there has MORAL COMPASS in this forum now, as it is OW/OM sub-forum, isn't it.

 

 

Calm down, don't be defensive.

 

 

Yes I went on vacation with MM based on his consistent invitation and desired that wanted to cover every expense.

 

 

Also I did not post last scenarios happened just 3 months ago, that DESPITE my effort trying to stop MM (as I know him so much), MM went ahead to inform ALL his family he wants to be with me, in love with me, then the whole tornado happening in his family...etc as you can imagine. And yes he still lives at home, but we are still in A, because I know the limitation that what I can have from him. I know what I want, from him.

 

 

And I never claim to be not contacting, saying to be a "awaken" ex-OW like you, but in the end still want to be the XMM that does not he had done the most hurtful thing to a woman, but the woman still wants to be THAT XMM. Typical co-dependent, or Stockholm syndrome (falling love with the abuser)?

 

 

 

 

Can I ask why you keep putting my name in parentheses?

 

While I appreciate your concern - you are the person who went on vacation at the same time and same location of your MM and his wife (but in a different hotel) so that you and MM could meet up here and there in secret. And you are giving ME advice? Do I have that correct?

[velvette]

 

p.s. there is a reason you want this man. there is a reason you still feel something, you still want him on some level. you just have to figure out what it is.

 

I think that's a waste of time, because whatever the reason it hasn't made any difference in this R before.

 

 

I would suggest instead that you spend time thinking about what kind of man you want for a partner. What qualities? Does he measure up. Hard to believe from what you have said that he does.

 

 

Isnt this the same man who either threatened or attempted suicide at the same time you sought to have him repay you? Is that what you want to live with?

 

 

He has huge issues from everything you have said. To me he sounds like a toxic person. I'm sure he has a good side like most toxic people do, but its never enough to offset the damage they will do to you.

 

 

It would take years of therapy for him to get his crap together. Has he even started?

[Mount]

We understand your mind is all over the place and the positive thing so far is yes, you have not proceed anything yet with him, so time will tell.

 

 

To answer your question, use my example, up to 3 months ago, it is 4th time that MM tried to leave his wife, despite I knew him too well - he is too used to old family life. So I like the relationship with him , that he loves, cares, and provides me, making me feel spoiled.

 

 

I don't want his 5th attempt again to create another Tornado, honestly, it is not fair to his wife either.

 

 

Is it very clear.

 

 

 

 

I don't know.

 

When you were in the A and you knew it was wrong and it probably would never work out, yet you wanted him - why did you want him?

[Hope Shimmers]

I think that's a waste of time, because whatever the reason it hasn't made any difference in this R before.

 

 

I would suggest instead that you spend time thinking about what kind of man you want for a partner. What qualities? Does he measure up. Hard to believe from what you have said that he does.

 

 

Isnt this the same man who either threatened or attempted suicide at the same time you sought to have him repay you? Is that what you want to live with?

 

 

He has huge issues from everything you have said. To me he sounds like a toxic person. I'm sure he has a good side like most toxic people do, but its never enough to offset the damage they will do to you.

 

 

It would take years of therapy for him to get his crap together. Has he even started?

 

Great points. Thank you.

 

Yes, he has been in IC. And yes, a lot of our conversation on Wednesday was about how much work he still has to do.

 

He attempted suicide awhile ago. That was something else we discussed in detail.

 

He isn't a person that I want to be with long-term in the condition that he has been. Yet, when we talk there is a huge connection that I've never had with anyone else, that makes me question things. That's really all that I meant by my latest "update" post - not that I was going to run off with him forever.

 

I've been in so many relationships over the years and never felt that same way. So why HIM? And do I wait to find that same kind of connection again in another person, or do I settle for something less? Maybe that is my question.

 

It just hit me again when I talked to him, and yes, the mistake was that I talked to him in the first place.

[velvette]

Great points. Thank you.

 

Yes, he has been in IC. And yes, a lot of our conversation on Wednesday was about how much work he still has to do.

 

He attempted suicide awhile ago. That was something else we discussed in detail.

 

He isn't a person that I want to be with long-term in the condition that he has been. Yet, when we talk there is a huge connection that I've never had with anyone else, that makes me question things. That's really all that I meant by my latest "update" post - not that I was going to run off with him forever.

 

I've been in so many relationships over the years and never felt that same way. So why HIM? And do I wait to find that same kind of connection again in another person, or do I settle for something less? Maybe that is my question.

 

It just hit me again when I talked to him, and yes, the mistake was that I talked to him in the first place.

 

Connection is important so put that on your list of qualities you want in a man/relationship.

 

 

But, be aware that connection can also happen between the toxic issues both people have as well as the healthy places. Hence why women with alcoholic parents marry alcoholics or women with abusive parents marry abusers, etc. And, those connections can form a super connection/bond. The brain recognizes trauma more than good, peaceful things.

 

 

There is no one person you can have a connection with in the world. The reality is that if you are on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to the qualities people look for in a mate.......intelligence, attractiveness, etc

the opportunity for connection is smaller.

 

 

All the more reason, to seek it out in places it is likely to be and to be open to it when it comes along. It will not always be readily apparent just from meeting someone or even dating them once or twice. Your thoughts are so consumed by this toxic past R that you are likely cutting off lots of opportunities for connection.

 

 

Connection is not some magical thing. Its made up of someone who wants the same things you do.......hence why I suggested making the list of what you want in a R. Beyond that, its about someone who is capable of delivering those things. No connection in the world is worth being with someone who is abusive, someone who isn't there when you need them the most, someone who doesn't love you the way you want to be loved, and especially someone who didn't have the guts to end a M that obviously should have ended since it has in order to be with you.

 

 

BTW I agree with others that you should be cognizant of the fact that as you yourself have said, his life would be financially easier with you. Also, that he is probably lonely. The first thing men do when they break up or divorce is pull out their little black book and call old lovers. Its way easier than putting themselves back on the market.

[velvette]

 

So now, I’m wondering how much it matters if he is remorseful and wants a second chance. Is it any different than if he and I had been married and he had cheated on me? Infidelity betrayal – some here would say it’s betrayal of the worst kind. But this betrayal is different - he betrayed our daughter, and to a lesser extent, me – when he wasn’t there when she was born and died. If infidelity betrayal is (sometimes) forgivable, is this kind of betrayal forgivable too? How much does that define his character forever and ever, and does that mean he can NEVER be a good relationship partner? Or a good person, even?

 

 

 

So here are the questions you asked.

 

 

Anything can be forgiven if you want to. We cant tell you what you are willing to forgive. That's a choice you have to make.

 

 

Has nothing to do with infidelity or being married because as I said its your choice whether or not to forgive.

 

 

It doesn't mean he can never be a good person or partner, but he has pretty poor track record and you are the only one who can decide if he is changing. IMO he could not possibly have changed in this short amount of time.

 

 

I believe I previously said it would take years of therapy for someone who has exhibited the toxic behavior you have described. Aside from what happened when your daughter died, you have said he was abusive to the point of beating you down into someone you did not know. That is serious stuff and most men do not change that kind of behavior. Good therapy for that is in short supply and even if he finds it the odds of him sticking it out are long.

 

 

The issue of forgiving someone and being in a R with them are two different things. You can forgive him without being in a R.

Edited July 20, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[beach]

I suggest forgiving him... But not having any more interaction with him.

 

Hope, he's got a hold on you that's a constant reminder of all the horrible things he's done to you. He's not a changed man - he's just a divorced man now. One who's looking around for his next woman.

 

He's been a man that lacks character and hasn't planned for a future.

 

I think he's a detriment to you if you continue.

 

The chemistry... From my experience (and I'm old) chemistry causes really unwise choices. I can't see any benefit to you by keeping him around - once again he's completely stalled your progress in moving forward.

 

 

I really hope you make choices for yourself that benefit you - and I really see him as a guy who would just bring too much baggage to your life.

[Hope Shimmers]

Yeah. That is probably true.

 

Beach just said the ultimate truth in her last post (and I'm old too).

[beach]

If you were to write out a list of all the good vs awful things he's done to/with you I'm sure you would be able to see why he isn't a good choice for you.

 

He's still capable of all those things. He harmed you so deep and would probably do it again if he needed to. He doesn't even seem to have a conscience about it all.

 

And just looking at him would be a constant reminder of all that he's capable of - I would be able to stand looking in his direction.

 

He may be talking about things now - but that doesn't eliminate the fact that he was terrible to you in the past few years. He would do it again. And that's just something I hope you don't do. Going back for round 3 or 3 is just likely to be as painful, if not more.

 

He used you because you allowed him to. Don't "allow it" anymore. He can find a new willing victim. Yes, I see him as a perpetrator. He is - sometimes the perpetrator is just dressed up to look decent but they are still the perpetrator looking for the victim.

 

He's got two spaces he's trying to fill - one was his wife (who has exited) and the other was you. I'm sure he's gone fishing for new bait.

[MuddyFootprints]

I agree that you need a safe, confidential, and professional outlet.

 

Please seriously consider consulting someone who is professionally equipped to walk through this with you.

[RoseVille]

Hope, you said you want him because of the connection you have, that you haven't felt with anyone else.

 

Straight up, we are drawn to and feel connected to things that feel normal to us (basically, "why we know" based on past experiences, in childhood or young adulthood or our first relationships), and/or to situations we think will cure us of past hurts. That doesn't mean that the connection is healthy or good for us. You're attracted to and feel a connection to a very, hugely, emotionally unhealthy man and dynamic. You were probably initially attracted to him based on something from your past that told you he normal, and once he burned you horribly, are trying to repair the hurt he caused you by having him fix it all by proving himself to be a better man, that you weren't wrong about him. You're defending him and explaining stuff away because you don't want this pain to have been for nothing. You want to be healed. HE CANNOT HEAL YOU. Nothing about continuing to engage him will ever heal you.

 

This is. not. healthy. Engaging him in ANY way is going to continue to destroy you.

 

I UUUUURRRRRGGGGGEEEEE you to seek professional help, therapy, to explore why you felt and continue to feel attracted to and a connection to such a disgustingly unhealthy, selfish man. That is the root of all of your ills.

[beach]

I meant to type that I wouldn't be able to stand looking in his direction.

[beach]

After a lot of thought - NO, do not forgive him!

 

Forgive yourself. That's the better way to approach being someone's victim. That way you're more likely to never be that willing victim again. No more interaction with the perpetrator!

 

 

He's just opening old wounds for you! At your expense. He's willing to drum up old pain and suffering for you - so that he manipulates you into "thinking" of that emotional bond!

 

It's hurtful! Yet he's been willing to still DO THAT to you - so it works to HIS advantage.

 

I hope you don't participate any more. He's a real douchebag.

[Southern Sun]

Glad to see you, HS.

 

I don't even remember what I posted (didn't go back to read), but I know I played a bit of devil's advocate and said maybe it wasn't right to assume he was totally evil in asking for these details...that maybe he was being sincere and just wanted to know, had his own issues, etc.

 

All that may be true (though it's more likely he's still just a selfish SOB), but I've changed my mind on this now.

 

Here's where I am...

 

So what?

 

So freaking what!

 

Who cares about HIM. This is about YOU.

 

How do YOU feel? What do YOU want? What makes YOU feel true to YOU? What are you doing (or not doing) to make sure you are not betraying YOURSELF?

 

God, it is so hard to admit that this stuff, at the end of the day, just didn't mean anything. Or that HE didn't. Because obviously plenty happened in your life as a result that very much meant something. But I think it's high time we take responsibility for our own happiness, our own decisions, our past, our present, and our future. Nobody can take from us what we don't choose to GIVE (obviously speaking in general terms...).

 

I have learned all this the hard way, so please know I am speaking as much to myself!!

 

Wishing the very best for you.

[Hope Shimmers]

Never claimed to be a victim, SG. Not once.

 

It's all 110% on me.

[Southern Sun]

You also mentioned "Why him?", that you felt such a connection to him that you've never felt with anyone. Toxic relationships generate a feeling of high chemistry...