Forgive or Not? [Updated]

[lgspot]

Thank you to everyone who posted. It has given me a lot to think about this week. It was a busy week with traveling for work, and my mind was on all of this.

 

First, I am way LESS vulnerable now than I was earlier this year. I learned some hard lessons about believing and trusting too easily, and ignoring my gut instinct when it was screaming in my ear, and while red flags were flying in every direction. I chose to ignore all of that, which was a huge mistake, and I learned from it. So I am taking that lesson forward and applying it to future potential relationships.

 

I will probably get flogged for this, but I talked to ex-MM this week (we FaceTimed for about 2 hours). Before that conversation I had not let him discuss personal things (other than our daughter). But this conversation was different. I could title the subject matter as, “Where did things go wrong?” and “Why did things happen?” I learned some things about our relationship that he would not talk about before, ever. It’s funny; you can even get some closure 8 years after the fact.

 

It has been screwing with my head that my previous (relative) objectivity and apathy concerning him are now somewhat gone.

 

The chemistry between us is still off the charts. It’s just instantaneously there. It’s not like I’m inexperienced with relationships – I’ve had several long-term serious relationships over the years, including a 16-year marriage. Never, ever have I found the depth of emotion (I’ll avoid the word “love”) and how I feel about someone to be so unbelievably intense. I wish I could adequately describe it. That is why I was so devastated when it ended in disaster all those years ago. And this was several years in – way past the ‘limerence’ stage and well into the ‘long-term relationship’ stage. I know he felt the same.

 

Now, he seems like the intelligent, articulate man that I was with for those years, before the huge mess started. He seems like he has done (and is continuing to do) a lot of thinking and growing. Of note, he hasn’t made any excuses for not being there for me or our daughter. He took that blame and shame (as he should). If he had made excuses, I would have been repulsed.

 

And now, he’s not pushing me in any way, and is concerned with how I feel. And he says too that he needs to get himself to the point where he is standing on his own two feet and is stable. It took him awhile, but he finally grew the balls to do what he needed to do (for his MARRIAGE – not for me). That is something.

 

Thinking back – and after reading/learning about many other examples of affairs – back then, he never lied about his feelings for me. Not at the beginning, the middle, or the end. He didn’t lie about that to his wife either. He never minimized what we had or made up lies to make himself look better to his wife or to other people.

 

He never lied about not loving her to me, either – it was always just that he could not stay in the marriage. When it all blew up he was honest to her and to me. Although he was less honest during the interim (affair) period when he was trying to keep both of us. And, there was so much conflict about our relationship – but was it due to circumstances? That’s what he said he believes. I honestly don’t know.

 

So now, I’m wondering how much it matters if he is remorseful and wants a second chance. Is it any different than if he and I had been married and he had cheated on me? Infidelity betrayal – some here would say it’s betrayal of the worst kind. But this betrayal is different - he betrayed our daughter, and to a lesser extent, me – when he wasn’t there when she was born and died. If infidelity betrayal is (sometimes) forgivable, is this kind of betrayal forgivable too? How much does that define his character forever and ever, and does that mean he can NEVER be a good relationship partner? Or a good person, even?

 

Please don’t blast me for being honest here, because I realize the timing is wrong and he NEEDS to have more time on his own – the ink on his divorce papers is barely dry. The dissolving of his marriage and moving on HAS to be separate from anything to do with me. So I have told him that we need to stop talking for awhile, and I have refused to see him. But if I’m being honest, the thought of him being single and dating eats at me.

 

 

Just be happy Hope.

 

Whatever that may be for you.

 

You are an intelligent woman certainly capable of taking care of yourself.

As always, you are honest with us.

 

Please don't take what I'm writing as a slam on anything you decide regarding MM or exMM' or whatever he is.

 

I've read your posts and story and have nothing but respect for you.

 

Truth is, more than just about anyone on LS, I would have wagered you would gravitate back to this man, married or not. You have always wanted to believe him, therefore you will. He's once again taken up residence in your mind and you are wondering, WHAT IF????

That's all he needed...

I've never had the feeling you were done with him.

 

For you, I hope whatever path you take brings you happiness......

 

For him, I'm sad because he too lost a child and he has my sympathy.

But, as a man, I have absolutely no respect for him. I think he's a silver-tongued snake oil salesman and I'm disappointed he's back.

As any manipulator, he has the good timing to act when you are vulnerable....

In my opinion, YOU deserve better.

 

Good luck Hope

[Dela]

i didn t read all the posts, but i know for sure that, except the men who are just jerks, in this kind of situations (when they feel powerless over things) they tend to **** down and not talk about things. it is GUILT.

i was pregnant with my MM. he didn t force me t abort, he let me decide what to do. he was there for me, but the truth is, it didn t make much difference him taking care of me and staying with me... no one could make my pain easier..

he rarely initiated the baby conversation, he told me he feel guilty and miserable because this happened and because i chose to abort because of his situation, knowing that i wanted to keep the baby.

 

i don t think your MM didn t care about u, i m sure he felt guilt because he hurt u and because this happened to your child. the pain is enormous.

 

i m sorry for ur loss, God bless your baby. take care of u

[RoseVille]

You're justifying and explaining on his behalf. Not good, at all. That was hard to read, seeing you getting sucked right back in.

 

Don't look back, Hope. You're not headed in that direction.

[CarrieT]

I'm with Anna on this one.

 

I think you are still blinded by your "chemistry" and he is walking-the-walk and talking-the-talk back into your heart and life.

 

That's fine if you ultimately want it, but I can't help believe it would not be the best thing for you.

[Gloria_Smellons]

Hope,

 

I've stayed away from your threads becauses frankly I've felt out of my depth. I cannot, dare not even attempt to contemplate the horror you have been through, so felt like anything I may have said would just seem... I'll equipped.

 

I have always admired you from afar for just getting through it, and your advice to others has always been respectful, kind and insightful. You are clearly an intelligent woman. Which is why I cannot pretend to understand why you even still entertain this 'man'. Having said that, I've never had a child with someone, so cannot understand the bond that would exist there.

 

It appears to me you have had unfinished business with this man for a long time, otherwise surely you would've just cut him off. Gently, it seems like you've never really got over him. If that's the case, think about what you want, make a plan, and execute it. Most of all though, own it. Own your actions. You still choose to engage with him, why? What's the reason? What do you want?

 

Honestly hope, watching your expanding interactions with this man is like watching you sip poison. Wouldn't it be better to just chug the whole bottle to get it over with? It'll either kill you or cure you but at least then you'll know.

 

I wish you luck, I truly do, but remember this. This man puts himself before all else. He put himself before his child, your child. I'm not sure I'd want a man like that anywhere near me or my life.

[RoseVille]

Honestly hope, watching your expanding interactions with this man is like watching you sip poison.

 

Sadly, a fitting description.

[whichwayisup]

Is it any different than if he and I had been married and he had cheated on me? Infidelity betrayal – some here would say it’s betrayal of the worst kind. But this betrayal is different - he betrayed our daughter, and to a lesser extent, me – when he wasn’t there when she was born and died. If infidelity betrayal is (sometimes) forgivable, is this kind of betrayal forgivable too? How much does that define his character forever and ever, and does that mean he can NEVER be a good relationship partner? Or a good person, even?

 

What this shows is, he will bail on you (again) when life gets real hard and bad stuff happens. What if you get ill? Would he be there for you 100% and take care of you no matter what? Do you fully trust him on all levels?

 

I'm very weary of this new contact and his true intentions. It's too fresh (if he really is leaving and divorcing his wife) to tell but my suggestion is do NOT date him, keep contact casual and infrequent. He HAS to be on his own and alone so he can fix himself. He's been bouncing from his marriage, to you and then back to his marriage. You don't want a broken man who needs fixing and growing. He needs to rid of bad habits and dynamics, lessen his emotional baggage.

 

It is obvious you're far from done with him, (what you said, you're not calling it 'love') you're addicted to him and how he makes you feel, it's intense lust and sexual attraction. Question is, will it ever turn into respectful and honest love, love that can grow and bring the best out in you (and in him) or is this damaging and will it cause more pain?

 

Just take things really slowly Hope. You've worked so hard to get to where you are now, it would be awful if things blew up in your face and he chose to go back home again. Do wait many MANY months once (if) he divorces before you 'date' him. DO NOT have sex with him or any kind of intimacy.

 

Edit to add: No it's not like a marriage. He was never obligated to you, never fully committed to you. Even after everything you went through with him.

[beach]

I will comment on your update later.

 

First, I'd like to know if he's still paying you monthly, as obligated. And when will it be paid off?

[Hope Shimmers]

I will comment on your update later.

 

First, I'd like to know if he's still paying you monthly, as obligated. And when will it be paid off?

 

Yes, he is still paying, although he doesn't always make the payments on time. Right now he's paid through June 2015 (payment was due on July 1st which he missed). He pays, but late. He has several more years before it's paid off.

 

He was married 32 years to a woman who never worked in her life so he's paying alimony and also is making the house payment on the house which he gave to her in the divorce. To do all that he is working 2 jobs, about 70 hours a week.

 

Are you suggesting his motivation is to get out of paying off the rest of his loan to me?

[Hope Shimmers]

Well, I got hit from several different directions on that one. But I thank you for the honesty and support. It's why I post here, because I need to hear objective opinions.

 

It seems like many people missed the part where I said I refused to see him and told him we shouldn't talk anymore. I am totally aware - and he said the same thing - that there needs to be A LOT more time for him to get solid on his feet and figure out his way through life at this point.

 

I am dating other people and that will continue.

 

My original question remains unanswered (although maybe I can extrapolate some of the responses). Is he not redeemable at all? Because he wasn't there during our daughter's birth, does that make him a horrible person who will be undependable and never be there for the hard stuff in the future?

 

I compared it to infidelity in a marriage, and I get that this wasn't a marriage, but what I meant was the concept: if someone can be forgiven after they have disrespected you in the worst way, is this different?

[Mount]

Could be, and "Beach" 's point is exactly right.

 

 

 

 

As the basic instinct if a man really loves woman, he would WANT TO PROVIDE naturally, that is even any animal's instinct, not to say human.

 

 

In society, people says some women being gold digger, but "gold digger" are exactly utilizing the instinct of a man who loves a woman.

 

 

Basically, when you see any man that even willing to accept your money, or tries to convince you to provide $$ to a woman, you should run and really fast

 

 

Yes, he is still paying, although he doesn't always make the payments on time. Right now he's paid through June 2015 (payment was due on July 1st which he missed). He pays, but late. He has several more years before it's paid off.

 

He was married 32 years to a woman who never worked in her life so he's paying alimony and also is making the house payment on the house which he gave to her in the divorce. To do all that he is working 2 jobs, about 70 hours a week.

 

Are you suggesting his motivation is to get out of paying off t

he rest of his loan to me?

Edited July 20, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Mount]

Yes you can forgive him if you want to , and continue dating these other people and go on with your life with other men, not the XMM.

 

 

But, if you forgive him and then get back with the XMM, that means you are not happy at all in your current progress/life, so called dating with other people.

 

 

If you are really happy with WHAT YOU HAVE now, I doubt you would even spare time thinking of XMM forgivable or not forgivable.

 

 

Well, I got hit from several different directions on that one. But I thank you for the honesty and support. It's why I post here, because I need to hear objective opinions.

 

It seems like many people missed the part where I said I refused to see him and told him we shouldn't talk anymore. I am totally aware - and he said the same thing - that there needs to be A LOT more time for him to get solid on his feet and figure out his way through life at this point.

 

I am dating other people and that will continue.

 

My original question remains unanswered (although maybe I can extrapolate some of the responses). Is he not redeemable at all? Because he wasn't there during our daughter's birth, does that make him a horrible person who will be undependable and never be there for the hard stuff in the future?

 

I compared it to infidelity in a marriage, and I get that this wasn't a marriage, but what I meant was the concept: if someone can be forgiven after they have disrespected you in the worst way, is this different?

[Hope Shimmers]

Could be, and "Beach" 's point is exactly right.

 

 

 

As the basic instinct if a man really loves woman, he would WANT TO PROVIDE naturally, that is even any animal's instinct, not to say human.

 

 

In society, people says some women being gold digger, but "gold digger" are exactly utilizing the instinct of a man who loves a woman.

 

 

Basically, when you see any man that even willing to accept your money, or tries to convince you to provide $$ to a woman, you should run and really fast

 

Mount, I get your point, but you don't know him. Money is the last thing he cares about. He would never be in a relationship just for money.

 

I don't care about money either. The only reason I set up the legal arrangement to make him repay the loan was because of the principle behind all of it. Not the money.

Edited July 20, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[txgrl]

Just lIke many of us thought that u were already bonding ( bonded?) emotionally with him the last time u posted , many of us are thinking your next post will be how you two ended in bed together .

 

It's perfectly ok if that's what you want or if that what makes you happy but for God's sake , stop trying to convince us and yourself that he was an ' honest ' cheat .

 

Nobody's going to flog you or anything but you say some v contradictory stuff sometimes e.g you are dating other people while it's VERY clear from your post that the only guy on your mind is him .

Best.

[Mount]

Maybe you don't care about the money, he might or might not care about money which you do not really know about him that much.

 

 

Yes, that is so obvious there has so many women that do not care money, only care so-called "TRUE love", and what result some of them got in the end. And those women are exactly the target for those men that claim to provide "true love".

 

 

Mount, I get your point, but you don't know him. Money is the last thing he cares about. He would never be in a relationship just for money.

 

I don't care about money either. The only reason I set up the legal arrangement to make him repay the loan was because of the principle behind all of it. Not the money.

[RoseVille]

Mount, I get your point, but you don't know him. Money is the last thing he cares about. He would never be in a relationship just for money.

 

I don't care about money either. The only reason I set up the legal arrangement to make him repay the loan was because of the principle behind all of it. Not the money.

 

I think you're using the financial arrangement as a way to maintain a connection to him.

[txgrl]

Oh and in answer to your question , ANYONE is redeemable but there's only one way to find out . The question is are you going to give him a chance to find that out ??

I think your heart is already there .

Best

[minimariah]

I compared it to infidelity in a marriage, and I get that this wasn't a marriage, but what I meant was the concept: if someone can be forgiven after they have disrespected you in the worst way, is this different?

 

what he did to you was, in my humble opinion, far worse than infidelity.

 

is he redeemable? sure. should you forgive him? sure. does all of that mean that you should re-start a relationship with him? no.

Edited July 20, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Mount]

That's right. If Hope really is happy and satisfied with current life, she can go on or move on with new man or without any man, and it does not matter if the XMM is being forgiven or not forgiven.

 

 

But, if Hope tries to convince herself the XMM should be forgiven, in order to set the stage going back with the XMM, I guess it is just the typical "repeating same thing in order to achieve different result" quote.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and in answer to your question , ANYONE is redeemable but there's only one way to find out . The question is are you going to give him a chance to find that out ??

I think your heart is already there .

Best

Edited July 18, 2015 by Mount

[whichwayisup]

Is he not redeemable at all?

 

Time will tell. If he wants to, he will change.

Maybe some day he can be the husband/partner to someone and not run out on them when life gets messy and hard.

 

Forgive him to give yourself peace.

Wish him well, if you truly don't plan on continuing with him. If you can see him still being in your life on some level then he needs to prove to you he's worthy of YOU, not the other way around.

 

I know you say it's over, but what makes me concerned is what you still feel for him, emotionally, sexually and spiritually. Unless you work real hard of ridding those feelings for him, he may just show up at your doorstep some day and whatever it is that you feel for him may be too strong to walk away from.

 

Glad you're dating others!

[whichwayisup]

That's right. If Hope really is happy and satisfied with current life, she can go on or move on with new man or without any man, and it does not matter if the XMM is being forgiven or not forgiven.

 

 

But, if Hope tries to convince herself the XMM should be forgiven, in order to set the stage going back with the XMM, I guess it is just the typical "repeating same thing in order to achieve different result" quote.

 

One can forgive and not look back. Forgiving will set her free of any angst or anger.

[Hope Shimmers]

I think you're using the financial arrangement as a way to maintain a connection to him.

 

No. The financial arrangement was something that was discussed in detail on this forum a long time ago and others thought I should get the money back. I have it set up so that there is absolutely no contact at all. The money gets directly deposited into my account.

[Hope Shimmers]

Thanks Morbius for your spot-on post earlier in this thread.

 

He made me see that I am just questioning things that I should have shut down years ago. Even if it's forgivable, it's too little and TOO late. It shouldn't have taken years after the birth of our daughter for him to wake up. Thanks for getting me back into objectivity Morbius.

 

BTW, when I said 'chemistry', I didn't mean sexual chemistry. I meant emotional chemistry.

 

I think I mentioned awhile ago that ex-MM is of Puerto Rican descent. So Spanish is his first language; it's my second language. Most of our interactions/conversations were always in Spanish, and the one the other day was in Spanish, but it had been awhile for me so I was struggling a little bit with the total context.

Edited July 20, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Gloria_Smellons]

It seems like many people missed the part where I said I refused to see him and told him we shouldn't talk anymore. I am totally aware - and he said the same thing - that there needs to be A LOT more time for him to get solid on his feet and figure out his way through life at this point.

 

My original question remains unanswered (although maybe I can extrapolate some of the responses). Is he not redeemable at all? Because he wasn't there during our daughter's birth, does that make him a horrible person who will be undependable and never be there for the hard stuff in the future?

 

Hope, I'm sorry you feel beaten up. It's hard when we watch someone we care about (yes, even random internet strangers) choose to repeatedly hurt themselves. I don't know you, but I still care, and the more contact you seem to have with this man the more pain and confusion seems to roll off your posts.

 

Did you tell him you shouldn't talk or told him you wouldn't talk? I don't expect you to tell us, but how did you end the conversation? Was it like 'we shouldn't talk, but I'm leaving the door open so we can discuss how we shouldn't be discussing it again at a later date,' or was it more like 'call me when you've been single at least a year and you've got your **** together'?

 

I shouldn't be involved in my affair at all, but knowing I shouldnt, and saying I shouldn't, doesn't mean jack **** since I still choose to do it.

 

To answer your question, I believe most people are redeemable (with a few exceptions). Let's face it though. Change is hard. The best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour, and why is that? It's because most people want the easy road, the quiet life, the status quo.

 

Maybe he is redeemable, but just not for you. Did you ever considered that? Story time. I have an ex - and oh how I loved that idiot - who for whatever reason, could just not tell me the truth, about anything. It was like an allergy. He lied about the little things, and he lied about the big things. He lied because he thought it was what I wanted to hear, and he lied because he wanted the quiet life. He kept on lying, until we split up because he cheated on me. He begged, pleaded and apologised and we got back together. He carried on lying right up until he lied about leaving me for someone else. Then he was gone.

 

I put my life back together, re planned my future and got on with living the life I wanted. After five years, he came sniffing around again. Guess what? The very first thing he said to me, after five damn years of doing fine, better than fine, was another lie. I called him out on it, and he just lied some more. He cannot, will not, tell me the truth. It's like the pattern has been set between us now, and the only way to stop this pattern, is for me to stop it.

 

Another five years passed, and just recently, he got in touch again. He is still lying. Ten damn years and he is still exactly the same man he always has been, treating me in exactly the same way he always did. Once relationship patterns have been established, they are very hard to break. I have FINALLY cottoned onto the fact that the only way to stop his lies, is to stop even listening to him. I will never communicate with him again, and I've done my damnedest to ensure he can't communicate with me.

 

One other thing for you to consider. The people I know who have changed dramatically have usually done so after some major/traumatic life event. This man lost a child, and he carried on taking care of number one. If there was a time for him to reflect, take stock and think about being a better man, a decent man, that was it. It passed and he just watched as the chance flew by. The timing of this and the way he's gone about the whole thing makes me suspicious. It doesn't make me think he is changing, just that he's lonely.

 

I think you deserve so much more.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Gloria_Smellons

[Hope Shimmers]

Hope, I'm sorry you feel beaten up. It's hard when we watch someone we care about (yes, even random internet strangers) choose to repeatedly hurt themselves. I don't know you, but I still care, and the more contact you seem to have with this man the more pain and confusion seems to roll off your posts.

 

Did you tell him you shouldn't talk or told him you wouldn't talk? I don't expect you to tell us, but how did you end the conversation? Was it like 'we shouldn't talk, but I'm leaving the door open so we can discuss how we shouldn't be discussing it again at a later date,' or was it more like 'call me when you've been single at least a year and you've got your **** together'?

 

I shouldn't be involved in my affair at all, but knowing I shouldnt, and saying I shouldn't, doesn't mean jack **** since I still choose to do it.

 

To answer your question, I believe most people are redeemable (with a few exceptions). Let's face it though. Change is hard. The best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour, and why is that? It's because most people want the easy road, the quiet life, the status quo.

 

Maybe he is redeemable, but just not for you. Did you ever considered that? Story time. I have an ex - and oh how I loved that idiot - who for whatever reason, could just not tell me the truth, about anything. It was like an allergy. He lied about the little things, and he lied about the big things. He lied because he thought it was what I wanted to hear, and he lied because he wanted the quiet life. He kept on lying, until we split up because he cheated on me. He begged, pleaded and apologised and we got back together. He carried on lying right up until he lied about leaving me for someone else. Then he was gone.

 

I put my life back together, re planned my future and got on with living the life I wanted. After five years, he came sniffing around again. Guess what? The very first thing he said to me, after five damn years of doing fine, better than fine, was another lie. I called him out on it, and he just lied some more. He cannot, will not, tell me the truth. It's like the pattern has been set between us now, and the only way to stop this pattern, is for me to stop it.

 

Another five years passed, and just recently, he got in touch again. He is still lying. Ten damn years and he is still exactly the same man he always has been, treating me in exactly the same way he always did. Once relationship patterns have been established, they are very hard to break. I have FINALLY cottoned onto the fact that the only way to stop his lies, is to stop even listening to him. I will never communicate with him again, and I've done my damnedest to ensure he can't communicate with me.

 

One other thing for you to consider. The people I know who have changed dramatically have usually done so after some major/traumatic life event. This man lost a child, and he carried on taking care of number one. If there was a time for him to reflect, take stock and think about being a better man, a decent man, that was it. It passed and he just watched as the chance flew by. The timing of this and the way he's gone about the whole thing makes me suspicious. It doesn't make me think he is changing, just that he's lonely.

 

I think you deserve so much more.

 

You are spot on. You were in your other post too. Thank you, more than I can say, for taking the time to post to me.