Fair Alimony in FL

[m0fugga]

My wife and I are going to mediation to hopefully finalize this divorce. We are in FL. She's asking me to come up with something I think is fair and I'm trying to do that but I wanted to see what some of the other spouses that have received support think. I've worked out monthly expenses of about $2500. Our last 3 years tax returns average about $100K a year. She's never really had a job accept season work with a retailer but she's not disabled and recently completed about $5000 in training for a career she's hoping to start. I figured, her career notwithstanding, she can at least be employed for minimum wage. That's good for about $1400 a month. I was going to offer $1500 a month in alimony for the length of the marriage (21 years). If she wants more, I'm prepare to offer bridge-the-gap alimony of $1000 more per month for 60 months. There are no minor children and no real assets to speak of. Does this sound fair? Too fair? Not fair enough?

[wizer]

I did a search on Florida alimony and found a calculator that will give a rough estimate of what a court might order you to pay.

 

Based on your income I got about $4000 per month. As far as duration, another search comes up with the fact that Florida considers marriages longer than 17 years to be long duration and it's common to see permanent alimony awarded.

 

So I think your numbers are way low. No doubt she'll do her own research and her starting number for negotiations will be permanent alimony at $4000 per month. Doesn't mean she'll get it but you are going to have to give a lot more than you realize.

[introverted_1]

How old are the both of you? If she is older, she will have trouble finding employment. If she is younger, not so much.

[Mrin]

In Colorado it would be about 3k a month for half the duration of the marriage. That's just a staring point for negotiations but since your wife has never had a real job that's what you would be looking at.

 

We don't have permanent spousal support.

[d0nnivain]

Talk to a good family lawyer in your area.

[Keenly]

The concept of alimony blows me away. Can some one please explain to me why anyone needs 5 years of free supplemental income to find a job?

[d0nnivain]

The concept of alimony blows me away. Can some one please explain to me why anyone needs 5 years of free supplemental income to find a job?

 

You are young. In your life both genders worked outside the home. In a bygone era that wasn't always the case. If one partner stayed home to raise the kids & facilitate the other's career, that person was deemed entitled to some assistance.

 

Also even though there are anti-discrimination laws, few employers want middle aged workers who have been out of the work force for years & who may not have kept up with rapidly changing technology when they can hire a younger person familiar with the technology who doesn't have gaps on their resume and who doesn't have family responsibilities.

[Keenly]

You are young. In your life both genders worked outside the home. In a bygone era that wasn't always the case. If one partner stayed home to raise the kids & facilitate the other's career, that person was deemed entitled to some assistance.

 

Also even though there are anti-discrimination laws, few employers want middle aged workers who have been out of the work force for years & who may not have kept up with rapidly changing technology when they can hire a younger person familiar with the technology who doesn't have gaps on their resume and who doesn't have family responsibilities.

 

I can definitely hop on board with everything you have said.

 

But I guess my question would be more focused on the ones that like to take advantage of this system. I've only ever personally known of one situation that involved alimony, and the guy really got screwed hard, especially because she just moved in with another guy and continued not to work while 2 men supported her lifestyle.

 

The woman in the 40 year marriage who stayed at home, I can kind of feel for that one. The 30 year old woman who wants a divorce after 3 years and wants alimony, that's when I start scratching my head.

 

 

Were ages mentioned in the OP? I think I saw 21 years of marriage, right?

[d0nnivain]

The system is changing. The shorter marriages no longer get alimony generally. Ages weren't mentioned but the OP said they had been married for 21 years. Usually over 20 years alimony is involved if one spouse did not work outside the home during the bulk of the relationship

[ChicagoSparty]

Courts in many states are wisely changing their views on alimony.

 

In a by-gone era, there was a place for it. When those laws were put on the books, most women didn't work. Neither of my grandmothers ever worked at a job a day in their lives.

 

Today...different story. Most women have had jobs before marriage, and many are educated and often professionally licensed. The one moment from my conciliation meeting that made me laugh was when my XW, who didn't work during most of our relationship, asked what she could expect to get for alimony. The case manager (a woman also) looked blankly at my XW and said 'Nothing. You have a Bachelor degree.'

 

It's an antiquated concept that, fortunately, the courts are beginning to laugh at.

[Lokin4AReason]

also depend(s) on the judge ( if they are having a bad or a good day ) IMO

[SoleMate]

The concept of alimony blows me away. Can some one please explain to me why anyone needs 5 years of free supplemental income to find a job?

Because...but presumably by the joint choice of the couple, he was the breadwinner, she was the longterm homemaker. The presumption is that this was decided for the benefit of the marital community and both parties. Both parties should have been aware that her outside-the-home work skills were failing to develop and/or declining, and that under the laws of their state she was likely to be building a big statutory entitlement to alimony. Many states consider "10 years" to be a long term marriage leading to an alimony entitlement.

 

What was the H thinking all those years? Did he ever read the family code or divorce case law in his state before signing the marriage contract?

[Keenly]

Because...but presumably by the joint choice of the couple, he was the breadwinner, she was the longterm homemaker. The presumption is that this was decided for the benefit of the marital community and both parties. Both parties should have been aware that her outside-the-home work skills were failing to develop and/or declining, and that under the laws of their state she was likely to be building a big statutory entitlement to alimony. Many states consider "10 years" to be a long term marriage leading to an alimony entitlement.

 

What was the H thinking all those years? Did he ever read the family code or divorce case law in his state before signing the marriage contract?

 

Well in my example, he was thinking he was the luckiest man in the world.

 

Then 6 years in she started having affairs and turned into a psychopath. Poor guy had to pay this woman alimony for cheating on him.

[No Limit]

Well in my example, he was thinking he was the luckiest man in the world.

 

Then 6 years in she started having affairs and turned into a psychopath. Poor guy had to pay this woman alimony for cheating on him.

 

A similar situation made it into one of my countries' online magazines a while ago. The husband had long suspected his wife of cheating, but she of course denied it - now mind you, the rules regarding alimony demand a much higher sum to be paid in case the ex lives alone; so he wanted to prove his STBXW was living with her lover. He hired an investigator and got all the information he needed, it was also accepted in court (except for the GPS in her car) - he was spared financing her and her lover's life and she also had to pay the cost of the investigator he had hired, 4000€!

[Keenly]

Are the numbers the OP threw out in the ballpark? My wallet would be crying.

[m0fugga]

Talk to a good family lawyer in your area.

 

My wife and I have decided to try and do this pro se and have opted to leave attorneys out of it.

 

Based on your income I got about $4000 per month.

 

My own research shows that to be pretty high and very unlikely. That amounts to 50% of my paycheck. You may not have turned up in your research that Alimony in FL is based on need. She has to prove that she needs $4000 a month. Also in FL, a judge considers her ability and capacity to work. She's 43 and just completed $5000 in training for a new career, but besides that she can at least get a minimum wage job that helps offset what I need to pay. Perhaps you could share the link the the calculator you found because the ones I found capped out at about $2500 a month.

[d0nnivain]

My wife and I have decided to try and do this pro se and have opted to leave attorneys out of it.

 

You don't have to hire the lawyer for everything if you woudl rather proceed without one but I think the cost of a consult to ask a couple of Qs, find out about alimony in your area & perhaps review the "final" agreement before you sign it could be invaluable.

[CarrieT]

She's 43 and just completed $5000 in training for a new career, but besides that she can at least get a minimum wage job that helps offset what I need to pay. Perhaps you could share the link the the calculator you found because the ones I found capped out at about $2500 a month.

 

The difficulty I see with the calculators I have googled is that the amount is based on what she has earned the past five years - not on what her potential to earn might be. That is what might force you to pay more and why you might want to, at least, hire a mediator in the financial aspects of the separation.

[m0fugga]

You don't have to hire the lawyer for everything if you woudl rather proceed without one but I think the cost of a consult to ask a couple of Qs, find out about alimony in your area & perhaps review the "final" agreement before you sign it could be invaluable.

 

I did consult with an attorney who told me the most she could expect was 30% which kind of lines up with what many of calculators come out with. In extreme circumstances (like she's disabled or our lifestyle was extravagant) she said she could maybe get more, but that in my case 30% would be a real stretch.

 

I think it's a good idea you have, finding a lawyer who will offer to review the agreement. The lawyer I consulted wanted $5000 up front and told me it'd be another $5000-7000 to handle everything. Plus there's a good chance I'd be paying that all over again for her attorney. She and I are thinking of our kids (ages 18-21) and feel like we'd rather them have that money than the attorneys.

[DivorcedDad123]

I'd hold off and see how this works out.

 

Florida lawmakers look to change alimony law - Sun Sentinel

[Mrin]

I'd hold off and see how this works out.

 

Florida lawmakers look to change alimony law - Sun Sentinel

 

I can't see the article but usually when there is an alimony reform law they implement a formula. The most common formula (recently adopted by CO) is:

 

Duration: half the length of the marriage

Amount: 40% of the higher earner's annual income less 50% of the lower earner's income.

 

It doesn't matter if she completed job training. She has zero income. The usual routine would be to presume her income at minimum wage (full time).

 

So applying this formula: it would be $40,000 - $7,540 = $32,460 annually or $2,705 monthly. For 10.5 years.

 

Now, it can be recalculated if either party's income changes by +- 10%.

 

OP: Just do a search for divorce mediation. It is a practice and is the way to go. Should only run you a few thousand.

[m0fugga]

I can't see the article but usually when there is an alimony reform law they implement a formula. The most common formula (recently adopted by CO) is:

 

Duration: half the length of the marriage

Amount: 40% of the higher earner's annual income less 50% of the lower earner's income.

 

It doesn't matter if she completed job training. She has zero income. The usual routine would be to presume her income at minimum wage (full time).

 

So applying this formula: it would be $40,000 - $7,540 = $32,460 annually or $2,705 monthly. For 10.5 years.

 

Now, it can be recalculated if either party's income changes by +- 10%.

 

OP: Just do a search for divorce mediation. It is a practice and is the way to go. Should only run you a few thousand.

 

We actually have mediation scheduled for next Tuesday. I'm going to offer her 30% and see how that goes. Our three adult children still live with me so I'm having to provide room and board plus food and things like insurance and automobile payments/repairs. I'm not sure what minimum wage is in your state, but $7540 seems kind of low. Am I missing something?

[Radu]

OP, congrats on trying to keep it fair and balanced, and trying [both of you] to avoid feeding the dogs [lawyers], and keep that money for your kids.

 

I'd hold off and see how this works out.

 

Florida lawmakers look to change alimony law - Sun Sentinel

 

•Require that the combination of alimony and child support could not be greater than 55 percent of the payer's income, and alimony payments could only continue for a period of time from 25 percent to 75 percent of the length of the marriage.

•Allow alimony payers to renegotiate payments if the payee has an increase in income, the payer becomes unemployed, or the payer retires.

Mother Of God !!!

You mean under the current law it can add up to more than that ???

 

It's obvious that the US is a hellish patriarchy !!!

Edited July 9, 2015 by Radu

[wizer]

You mean under the current law it can add up to more than that ???

 

I've seen cases where the poor guy is ordered to pay more in alimony and child support than he earns in total.

 

Which is why the jails are full of "deadbeat dads" who "refuse" to pay child support. Do you think they want to be there?

[Mrin]

We actually have mediation scheduled for next Tuesday. I'm going to offer her 30% and see how that goes. Our three adult children still live with me so I'm having to provide room and board plus food and things like insurance and automobile payments/repairs. I'm not sure what minimum wage is in your state, but $7540 seems kind of low. Am I missing something?

 

Very cool. The $7,540 was 50% of her income (presumed to be minimum wage at $15,080/year). That's just the federal minimum wage. Not sure what FL is.

 

30% is a reasonable offer. Two things to think about:

 

1. Term: how long?

 

2. Recalculation: It is pretty common to include recalculation language in the event of changes of income. So if she starts making more that minimum wage, your spousal support goes down. The other thing is you want some of this to apply to your income as well. If your income declines, then the amount you pay goes down. But, here's the thing, if your income goes up from current levels, the amount you pay stays the same. She should have no expectation to benefit from future windfalls or success you might have.