Did I deserve so much punishment?

[m.snow]

Is sleeping with prostitutes in Amsterdam not seen as cheating?

Whether he did it or not, is still up in the air, but that was his intention.

 

They are not yet divorced.

 

its cheating if you hide it and lie about it.

beside there is no proof he is cheating.

accusing him of such with out evidence is just so wrong.

 

remorsefultab, why don't you direct your stxbh here on love-shack. maybe. just maybe, he change his mind. long shot worth a try or might make it worse.

 

but maybe if he reads what you wrote.

[DKT3]

No it isn't, but telling her he was about to sleep with good time girls in Amsterdam was, and for that info to be met with the attitude of some that "Well, he had to suck it up it, is her turn now", is ridiculous and surely makes a mockery of 8 long years of reconciliation and IC on her part.

Yes, she did a dreadful thing, yes, she hurt him, but when does this all end?

Even murderers get parole.

 

 

This isn't youth sports you don't get a first place for simply showing up. Maybe she did her best for 8 years, does that mean he has to continue in the marriage? He is clearly not happy and to be honest at this point the why's aren't important.

 

I do agree with the others that think something is missing, for him to go from 20 to 100 on the pissed off meter something had to change, he had to have found out more of the old or something new. Him maybe having a girlfriend doesn't explain his renewed anger with his wife.

[autumnnight]

its cheating if you hide it and lie about it.

beside there is no proof he is cheating.

accusing him of such with out evidence is just so wrong.

 

remorsefultab, why don't you direct your stxbh here on love-shack. maybe. just maybe, he change his mind. long shot worth a try or might make it worse.

 

but maybe if he reads what you wrote.

 

Honestly, he'd probably have posters lined up telling him to "kick her to the curb."

 

I think moving forward with character is best at this point.

[oldshirt]

 

I do agree with the others that think something is missing, for him to go from 20 to 100 on the pissed off meter something had to change, he had to have found out more of the old or something new. Him maybe having a girlfriend doesn't explain his renewed anger with his wife.

 

 

Where are you getting that he is 100 on the pissed of scale?

 

She has said that he has told her he can't foregive what she has done and is out of there, but she hasn't said anything about him lashing out in anger. In fact, she has said that he has been sober and calm.

 

Having an apt ready to go and a meeting with a lawyer scheduled when he announced he leaving and then a trip to Amsterdam scheduled with his mates all sounds pretty methodical to me and not a fit of rage.

[jwi71]

Wow,

 

OP:

 

I am sorry that you are getting D - especially since you clearly don't want to. This is almost universally true of waywards. To answer your question of "do you deserve so much punishment" - no, you don't.

 

What does that mean? What does punishment mean? What is deserved? I don't know.

And that leads us, for 30 pages, to determine motive and intent and all that on your H's part - all in a good faith attempt to answer that question. Now, I have said you do not deserve that punishment. You don't. The caveat is I don't think you were punished. You were betrayed. And this is the valid point goodbye makes (and dayum, stop beating her up)

 

I say this because you, OP, attribute the following paraphrase to your H :

 

"I would have left you then were it not for my son"

 

Period. Black and White. He did NOT stay for you. This explains his actions you recount: limited physical intimacy, no spontaneity, etc. He did the bare minimum. I think he was modelling a "happy nuclear family" for his son. To give his son a foundation of normalcy.

 

And I find GREAT FAULT in his doing that TO you (and TO his son). It's just as despicable as your betrayal of him was. But he was no longer thinking of or for you but of his son. My guess is all the love and caring for you died that day - dday. You meant as much to him as he did to you during your A. I do not say that to wound or cut - its what I think happened - and supported by what you say he did/said. Its his motive - the "why" he stayed for 8 years. Because he no longer cared for you he planned his future around what he thought best for his son. You did not matter. That was HIS justification for betraying YOU. And its WRONG.

 

So...8 years he feigns the happy family...for his son. I find that appalling in both execution and attempt. He didn't model anything but lies and deceit. The very things he railed against. Ironic is it not? I am of the opinion he should have left you d-day if he felt so. Taught, modeled and lived an AUTHENTIC life to HIS principle - not demean them in 8 years of fraud. I do HOPE it was successful though. I hope your son has happy memories. A good foundation to build HIS relationships with in HIS life going forward.

 

Sorry he led you on but I think that's why.

 

Was he sexually faithful to you? Who knows. Doesn't matter. (But do get checked)

Do I condone or excuse his actions: clearly not.

Do I think you were betrayed too: clearly so.

Do I think I understand WHY...I think so. There is logic to it. The pieces fit for me.

 

What should you do going forward? Prepare for D. Try and ignore his being an a_shat (he is now and has for 8 years been such). Take the high road.

Mourn the loss of the family.

Heal yourself.

Be a good mother and a good co-parent.

Live each day fully and happy - and one day it will truly be.

 

As to why now he filed...dunno. Better now than 10 years on living a false life. Yes, its not lost how the tables turned here - you from betrayer to betrayed. Nor is it lost on how the view of this forum did not change with the tables being turned.

 

Good luck...life begins anew for you. Make the most of it.

[italianjob]

While I think it's possible that someone trying R might at last find he can't make it and throw in the towel, even after 8 years, what really seems strange to me is that, by the way the OP describes his call before the Amsterdam weekend and the communication with her mother, this man sounds really really pissed.

 

It sounds like something fresh, not like something 8 years old...

 

Is it possible that he has recently discovered something about the affair that he didn't previously know? It might be something the OP didn't think much about, but he finds important, or maybe something the OP gave as known or obvious, but he didn't really know until a few days ago?

[anna121]

That is my point exactly ^^^^^^^

 

 

If he said it matter of factly as if he was telling his 2nd cousin where he's going while the cousin watches the house and feeds the dog while he's gone, that's not revenge.

 

That's just saying where he's going for the weekend.

 

If he is truly disconnected and simply doesn't care, that's not revenge.

 

The opposite of love is not hate. It is apathy.

 

If he's apathetic towards her, it's not revenge. It's just telling it like it is whether it hurts her or not.

 

 

It may be rude and insensitive and maybe evasen $hitty to be that blunt, but if it's not intended to hurt then it's not revenge.

From her descriptions, it sounds to me like it's more a case of just being done and completely disconnected rather than trying to bring hurt to her.

 

Wanting revenge and to inflict pain requires passion. I see no passion from him here. It sounds more like a guy that just couldn't care less.

 

What's that saying?

 

"Revenge is a dish best served cold."

 

I just don't buy that his manner of delivery (cold, matter-of-fact) means that he isn't seeking revenge or, at least, isn't trying to make her feel really, really bad.

 

It is difficult to imagine a neutral way of telling your SBTX spouse, "Oh, and don't let our son see you f%&^ing some other guy while I'm gone."

[oldshirt]

What's that saying?

 

"Revenge is a dish best served cold."

 

I just don't buy that his manner of delivery (cold, matter-of-fact) means that he isn't seeking revenge or, at least, isn't trying to make her feel really, really bad.

 

It is difficult to imagine a neutral way of telling your SBTX spouse, "Oh, and don't let our son see you f%&^ing some other guy while I'm gone."

 

 

I think we may be splitting hairs here and the end result is all the same regardless.

 

All I'm saying is he may not be out for any kind of revenge or punishment.

 

He may just be to a point where he couldn't care less what he says and doesn't care if it hurts her or not.

 

Now whether that is any better or any worse than trying to stick it to her or not, I don't know. In the end I don't think it matters because if he is that disconnected and apathetic towards her, it's all over any way.

[Owl6118]

RT, your husband clearly kept his inner thoughts and later plans opaque to you. That opaqueness has been catnip to Loveshack, as posters for much of this thread try to fill in the blanks. But really, they are all best guesses. Could be dead on, could be wildly wrong.

 

But you HAVE gotten some golden advice about what you do now to care for you and your son.

 

I would pay attention to that, and work on it, and let much of our speculation on your husband's motives and frame of mind go. I suspect you will learn what they were in time. But whatever they were, it doesn't change a whit your current to do list to take care of you and your son.

 

I am sorry for this trauma and pain. I wish you well in your jouney.

[Clarence_Boddicker]

Even murderers get parole.

 

 

Not related to the OP's situation: Just because something happens doesn't make it right. No murderer should ever get parole. All murderers (1st degree) should be executed, or at minimum be sentenced to hard labor for life with no hope of parole. Individual responsibility & consequences for your actions. Again, I'm not comparing the OP with being a murderer.

 

 

I feel bad for the OP & hope that her husband realizes what he's leaving, once he gets out there in the modern dating world & decides to forgive her and reconcile. If he wont reconcile, all she can do is be a great mom & co parent and take the high road if he keeps being hostile. That may happen for awhile as he gets it out of his system. Sounds like both parties have kept it a secret from everyone else except the OP to her counselor.

[Noirek]

Where are you getting that he is 100 on the pissed of scale?

 

She has said that he has told her he can't foregive what she has done and is out of there, but she hasn't said anything about him lashing out in anger. In fact, she has said that he has been sober and calm.

 

Having an apt ready to go and a meeting with a lawyer scheduled when he announced he leaving and then a trip to Amsterdam scheduled with his mates all sounds pretty methodical to me and not a fit of rage.

 

No, i agree with others, oldshirt. If he told his wife not to f*** in front of your kid is cruel and angry. Even if she had an affair, any affair, no one I know does it in front of their child. And he would know that so his intent was to cut her deep. Not something you do when you want a clean break. You also don't take off on an apparent sex trip when you are a dad. Well most people i know don't, they are a little more grown up than that. I don't think the divorce is "punishment" but that comment was meant to cut deep.

 

As to the letter, the OP was in a terrible place during her friend and a terrible mindset. Letters written then are no worse than actions. And they aren't always true either but can spring from some very messed up emotions. Unless he just found the letter i doubt that is what set him off.

 

There is the possibility he just wants to divorce, the affair is a good non guilt way to do it. And he is rewritting his own emotional history to do so. Beinging up things and focusing on things to fuel it. None of us know and it really doesn't matter. Their marriage is over. I agree with the advice for the OP to move on and rebuild her life.

[Hope Shimmers]

I agree. He's pissed.

 

Many men don't yell and go crazy when they are mad. They just shut down. They become cold as ice and their comments are meant to cut to the core. There is nothing apathetic about what this man said to the OP.

 

My ex-husband was like this. When he was calm but cold and methodical and nasty, that was when I had to really watch out.

[bigman1]

Remorseful,

 

Remorseful, I stated to you in an earlier post that your husband probably felt that you were being dishonest with him by not revealing your thoughts in your letter to him and that he doubted your truthfulness in this period where you claim to have been making things up to him. You recently stated the following:

 

I dont know if people are intentionally forgetting this, but I have told earlier that I have had no contact with the OM since DDay. And that was my only affair. And H knew about that letter on DDay.

 

Perhaps you need to re-read your prior posts. In post #99 you stated this:

When I said husband revealed to me things that he never said before, they were that he had read a soft copy draft of a letter then I had written to a relationship advice site. In this letter I vividly described my attraction to the OM, how sex was amazing with (makes me ill when I type this now), how I was pushing him away, how I didn't think our relationship could recover.

 

You clearly are missing the point, at best. I know your husband knew about the letter, the point was you didn't know that he knew and that he was testing you. My point then and now is that you kept your true feelings secret. You never were completely honest with your husband because if you were, you would have discussed this letter and its contents and your feelings expressed therein. If you had been open, honest and forthcoming, there is no possible way that this letter or feelings would not have been discussed in 8 years!

 

Now, if you put things in context you see that his statements and even his comments about not having sex in front of the kids make perfect sense. Follow this train of thought: 1) You write how amazing sex was with OM and how strong you were attracted to him.

2) Your husband finds it and NEVER tells you about his discovery.

3) You tell him that you are being open and honest with him and want to rebuild your marriage.

4) He knows about the letter and contents and waits to see if you will tell him about the letter, the feelings, and everything.

5) You NEVER bring it up for 8 years.

6) He figures that you want to keep those feelings as your "special secret" and as proof of how he does not compare.

7) He concludes that you would bang OM still or someone else as soon as he is not around BECAUSE you expressed such intense feelings of sexual attraction, THEREFORE he says "don't FU*$ anyone while he is gone".

8) He tells you about the letter to let you know that he knows the secrets that you have been keeping during your so called period of being faithful, loving, and dedicated.

9) He tells you that he is going to sleep with someone else so that you will know what it feels like to have your spouse look forward to or have anticipation of having sex with someone else.

 

I'm not ganging up on you, but seriously, that was obvious. You have to remember your own words. You have no hope of working this out until you deal with those feelings. My guess is that he has been seething about this for 8 years.

[aliveagain]

This is exactly what happens if you rug sweep. A professional who knows what their doing would have helped you both through this before it became insurmountable. Some of us just don't get over betrayals regardless of the timing. My heart breaks for your child because your selfishness and your husbands anger aren't his fault but children tend to blame themselves for the breakup of their families, they don't understand the world of adults.

 

Keeping secrets from your husband keeps your affair alive regardless of how much time has passed. This is why it is so important to get every detail of your affair into the open, secrets between you and your affair partner are secrets withheld from your spouse and keeps your spouse in the 3rd man position. You and other man still have a special place that your husband has no access to. He has to reclaim his territory if he's going to stay. It's a guy thing. Lay on the 2x4's.

[beatcuff]

OP, i urge you to post "what do i do now" under the Separation and Divorce forum. there are [much more knowledgeable than me] posters there that will help guide you as move to the next stage.

[sandylee1]

Yes, she did a dreadful thing, yes, she hurt him, but when does this all end?

 

It's ended now.

 

He's done his time and the last 8 years could well have felt like a prison sentence to him. That's how some BSs feel.

[oldshirt]

OP, i urge you to post "what do i do now" under the Separation and Divorce forum. there are [much more knowledgeable than me] posters there that will help guide you as move to the next stage.

 

Agreed ^^^^^^^^^^

 

The chances of turning this into a healthy, productive marriage is zero. It's over.

 

Now it's time to change the objective to having as fair and seamless and painless of a divorce as possible.

[understand50]

OP, i urge you to post "what do i do now" under the Separation and Divorce forum. there are [much more knowledgeable than me] posters there that will help guide you as move to the next stage.

 

Remorseful,

 

It is time to work on breaking up. Why this happened, has been gone over, but you need the real life mechanics for protecting yourself and your son during the upcoming days.

 

Hope for the best.

[TrustedthenBusted]

 

But is there any way I can convince my husband not to divorce me and break up our family?

 

I haven't yet read all the other responses, but I can tell you this: I'm like 6 years past D-day, and have "forgiven" my wife. I put that in quotes because forgiveness means something different to every person who gives it.

 

Anyway, my wife and I have reconciled, and are generally happy. But if I decided tomorrow, or in 27 years that I wanted a divorce, it would likely be because of her affairs.

 

I know that seems like an unfair Trump card that I get to pull whenever I choose... but that's life. Her affair let a genie out of the bottle that cannot be put back in...ever. The trust she shattered, was glued back together, but will never be the same. The balanced scale I thought we had was an illusion. The partnership, the safety, the security, the dream... all forever tarnished.

 

And while we have worked on our marriage, and have become even stronger in many ways as a result of this challenge, at the end of the day, it still happened, I still dont like it, and I can choose at any time that I want to rid myself of whatever little scraps of pain might still be fluttering around in my attic, and move on. We retain that right.

 

My kids are 11 and 13, and still very much the air in my lungs. Once they are off to college, who knows how we will react? I may feel that my sense of duty has lessened somewhat. I may feel like it's "me" time. who knows.

 

Hell, I may enjoy being with my wife even more, now that the kids are out. Dunno.

 

But that little itch in the back of your mind never ever goes away, and some wait years to scratch it.

[Noirek]

I haven't yet read all the other responses, but I can tell you this: I'm like 6 years past D-day, and have "forgiven" my wife. I put that in quotes because forgiveness means something different to every person who gives it.

 

Anyway, my wife and I have reconciled, and are generally happy. But if I decided tomorrow, or in 27 years that I wanted a divorce, it would likely be because of her affairs.

 

I know that seems like an unfair Trump card that I get to pull whenever I choose... but that's life. Her affair let a genie out of the bottle that cannot be put back in...ever. The trust she shattered, was glued back together, but will never be the same. The balanced scale I thought we had was an illusion. The partnership, the safety, the security, the dream... all forever tarnished.

 

And while we have worked on our marriage, and have become even stronger in many ways as a result of this challenge, at the end of the day, it still happened, I still dont like it, and I can choose at any time that I want to rid myself of whatever little scraps of pain might still be fluttering around in my attic, and move on. We retain that right.

 

My kids are 11 and 13, and still very much the air in my lungs. Once they are off to college, who knows how we will react? I may feel that my sense of duty has lessened somewhat. I may feel like it's "me" time. who knows.

 

Hell, I may enjoy being with my wife even more, now that the kids are out. Dunno.

 

But that little itch in the back of your mind never ever goes away, and some wait years to scratch it.

 

So, if you get bored, if you get complacent, if things get rough for whatever reason, if you cheat, if you just meet someone new, if you suffer empty nest syndrome, if you become a terrible spouse, ect, it will because your wife had an affair?

 

Seems like pretty strong trump card.

 

It is one thing to give R a shot and realize you are not capable of working past it. It is completely another thing to cling on to a get out of free jail card indefinitely so that you can play it at any time you want and absolve yourself of any personal responsibility for your own actions.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Noirek

[Clay]

So, if you get bored, if you get complacent, if things get rough for whatever reason, if you cheat, if you just meet someone new, if you suffer empty nest syndrome, if you become a terrible spouse, ect, it will because your wife had an affair?

 

Seems like pretty strong trump card.

 

I don't think he was stating that at all. I think it will probably be the underlining reason why he would leave. Hence he never was able to fully get over the affair.

 

C

[Noirek]

I don't think he was stating that at all. I think it will probably be the underlining reason why he would leave. Hence he never was able to fully get over the affair.

 

C

 

No, he directly said it would probably be because of her affairs. And maybe it would be. But having that mindset really just prevents being honest with yourself and taking responsibility for your own actions. I hope though that it is really just the place he is in now and should something come up ten or fifteen years or so from now he would be a little more honest instead of honing in on past indiscretions.

 

Like I said, we are talking people who are reconciled, not people who are biding there time. And maybe he is just the latter. I know you don't agree with reconciliation. I don't unless things line up. I definitely don't think I should have been offered it... again. But if you do believe it can happen and you do enter in it. There has to be at least the end goal to put down the affair trump card.

[Clay]

No, he directly said it would probably be because of her affairs. And maybe it would be. But having that mindset really just prevents being honest with yourself and taking responsibility for your own actions. I hope though that it is really just the place he is in now and should something come up ten or fifteen years or so from now he would be a little more honest instead of honing in on past indiscretions.

 

Like I said, we are talking people who are reconciled, not people who are biding there time. And maybe he is just the latter. I know you don't agree with reconciliation. I don't unless things line up. I definitely don't think I should have been offered it... again. But if you do believe it can happen and you do enter in it. There has to be at least the end goal to put down the affair trump card.

 

See the bad thing about it is even if you do reconcile. The trust never really fully comes back. That feeling of being safe is gone forever. These things bring on resentment. Imagine all the things a person that was faithful might have gone on and done and now they have to rethink it all together. Maybe going fishing for a week or hunting. Maybe going to a training program for a couple weeks. Those are now all in question. The other thing is how can you be sure she will never cheat again. Is it because she is say she won't. Sure any one who reconciles should put there best into it but it doesn't mean it will be easy or work out. Its a gamble at best. You have to trust the person that stabbed you in the back to put the knife down and not do it again.

 

Look this is the price you pay when playing these kinds of games with peoples lives. It complicates things and rips at who we really are. I have always been faithful and I have never strayed but I can tell you my third relationship of being cheated on sure made me question everything.

 

You are right I am not for reconciling. I do agree no one is perfect. Anyone can make a mistake. This is not a mistake. Mistakes are not intentional in nature. Cheating is intentional. The person might want to justify it in there mind any way they can but in the end they are in the wrong and nothing they can say will ever justify it. If they were not getting what they wanted out of the relationship they should have left before cheating.

 

I do feel bad for OP. It sounds like she really tried but it also sounds like he just could not do it.

 

C

[Poutrew]

No, he directly said it would probably be because of her affairs. And maybe it would be. But having that mindset really just prevents being honest with yourself and taking responsibility for your own actions. I hope though that it is really just the place he is in now and should something come up ten or fifteen years or so from now he would be a little more honest instead of honing in on past indiscretions.

 

Like I said, we are talking people who are reconciled, not people who are biding there time. And maybe he is just the latter. I know you don't agree with reconciliation. I don't unless things line up. I definitely don't think I should have been offered it... again. But if you do believe it can happen and you do enter in it. There has to be at least the end goal to put down the affair trump card.

 

 

Umm...so what? You are talking about someone's love life like it were a game of battleship. His battleship (Trusted's) was sunk, and through a lot of hard work it was brought back to the surface and it is at least floating. But that is no guarantee the damage done to it in the war would not ultimately mean it needs to be scuttled at some future date. That was his wife's decision to make when she had sex with someone else. There is no logic to it. Fairness doesn't even come into play. If that sounds like a sword hanging over his wife's head then so be it - it sounds like she has accepted it a fact of life.

 

 

In the OPs case, it truly sounds like the ship has sunk. She either needs to jump off or learn to breath under water. This has been a very costly life lesson for all concerned...

[TrustedthenBusted]

So, if you get bored, if you get complacent, if things get rough for whatever reason, if you cheat, if you just meet someone new, if you suffer empty nest syndrome, if you become a terrible spouse, ect, it will because your wife had an affair?

 

Seems like pretty strong trump card.

 

It is one thing to give R a shot and realize you are not capable of working past it. It is completely another thing to cling on to a get out of free jail card indefinitely so that you can play it at any time you want and absolve yourself of any personal responsibility for your own actions.

 

Not what I was trying to convey at all. I don't think I get to excuse any of my own bad behavior with a Trump card, or use it as some sort of misdirection should I find her doing unrelated things that I don't like. That's what I meant when I suggested that it "seemed" like a Trump card we get to hang on to.

 

What I was trying to convey is that no matter what, no matter how much time passes, no matter how well we get along today, the pain of what she did will always be there to some extent. The triggers, the reminders, the watching friends go through it, and perhaps our own children someday..... this is what cannot be undone, and we each retain the right to say " ya know...30 years was long enough to feel this pain."

 

So not a Trump card to be played lightly, but more of an uninvited houseguest that you can decide you just don't want to live with anymore.

 

Now, as for how infidelities play into all of the other things you mentioned....complacency, revenge affairs, boredom, empty nest stress. While pretty common in most marriages, I think it would be impossible to deny that the discovery of an affair wouldn't increase the odds of all of them.

 

I don't hold my wife's affair over her head. She does enough of that to herself. But I do still feel occasional triggers, and we do still have to discuss it once in awhile, ( like with all this Ashley Madison nonsense ) rather than pretend we aren't thinking about it. And this may go on for another 20 years.

 

I may decide one day I've had enough....or maybe she will.

 

Right now, the good far outweighs the bad, and I hope it stays that way.