Morality without God

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by Moose

I'm sorry that you feel this way, most people do now and days.......that's you're choice. I choose to believe that yes, man did write the Bible. And I make no mistake..... nothing would be in that Bible unless God wanted it there.

 

Agreed. It's God's word, man was merely the scribe.

[Firesqueak]

Moose, you don't have to be sorry for me at all.

 

I used to be a Christian, much like you are. It's just not for me, hon. I've tried so hard to fit in to countless churches, and I've tried to "forget" my questions so that I'd be just like everyone else, but I just can't pretend to be who I'm not anymore.

 

Pastors get endlessly frustrated with me, and I get frustrated with them. It's a no win situation on anyone's part. I just don't have a good mindset to be part of a church.

 

By the way, I DO believe in God. I just don't put my trust in mankind. I realize that other's believe that God wrote through the prophets, and I'm not disagreeing with that- my point- and that's all it is, an opinion- is that the Bible is not pure because God himself did not write it.

[Moose]

I've tried so hard to fit in to countless churches, and I've tried to "forget" my questions so that I'd be just like everyone else, but I just can't pretend to be who I'm not anymore

Not trying to change the subject.....but I know just how you feel. I just decided, long ago, that my job wasn't to fit in. My job was to go and learn......even though I don't agree with some of what my pastor says. Is it possible you wanted more to belong to something rather than searching for your Church home?

[Nicholas]

Protocol of nonreligious people's inquiry into motives/beliefs/practices of religious people:

 

Nonreligious : Declaration of respect and open-mindedness for religion, Statement of innocent inquiry

 

Religious : Answer from religious perspective

 

Nonreligious : Deliberate misintrepretation of answer

 

Religious : Clarification

 

Nonreligious : Snide comment/Joke*

 

Religious : Resignation

 

Nonreligious : Why o Why can't I get an answer to my simple questioN?

 

(* Examples include literalist citations of figurative events, mentioning historical attrocities, or my favorite, child molestation jokes)

 

It's God's word, man was merely the scribe.

Merely? The scribe is twice as important as the narrator, as he controls what gets written down and how it's interpreted.

[KissMyTiara]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

 

 

Agreed. It's God's word, man was merely the scribe.

 

 

Haven't you heard of the telephone game??

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by Nicholas

Protocol of nonreligious people's inquiry into motives/beliefs/practices of religious people:

 

Nonreligious : Declaration of respect and open-mindedness for religion, Statement of innocent inquiry

 

Religious : Answer from religious perspective

 

Nonreligious : Deliberate misintrepretation of answer

 

Religious : Clarification

 

Nonreligious : Snide comment/Joke*

 

Religious : Resignation

 

Nonreligious : Why o Why can't I get an answer to my simple questioN?

 

(* Examples include literalist citations of figurative events, mentioning historical attrocities, or my favorite, child molestation jokes)

 

 

Merely? The scribe is twice as important as the narrator, as he controls what gets written down and how it's interpreted.

 

Suggested reading: "The case for Christ" and "The Case for Religion" ....

[RecordProducer]

Why do Christians always recommend the Bible and talk about Christ???

Why doesn't anyone else talk about their gods and sacred books? Do you guys understand that not all people are Christians and that it's simply inappropriate to answer other people's posts with "Christ this, the Bible that..." At least make sure that you're talking to a Christian before you start persuading them how sweet Christ is!

[Nicholas]

I'm a Christian. Probably not by ConfusedInOC's standards, but every Sunday I gather in a church, worship Mary, plan crusades, and talk about transubstantiation.

 

ConfusedinOC:

 

My points were:

 

1. Nonreligious people who proclaim to be open-minded and who claim to innocently ask questions about religion often really don't care about the answers, and are difficult to deal with.

 

2. The fact that man wrote the Bible, not God, is more significant than most fundamentalists would like to concede.

 

I've read both of those books (if we're talking about the same ones) and I don't see how it's relevant to either of those points. The first book is a well-written investigation into Jesus' divinity, the second is a naive defense of religious pluralism. Neither addressed the numerous flaws of text as a vehicle for God's word.

[XNemesisX]

I choose to believe that yes, man did write the Bible. And I make no mistake..... nothing would be in that Bible unless God wanted it there.

 

And how do you know this? Because the humans who wrote it said so? Well then it must be true!

[XNemesisX]

Oh and to answer the original question...YES you can have morals without ANY religion. We are all born with a sense of right and wrong, regardless of religion. I wasn't raised in a religious household and I still knew right from wrong. It's silly to think that nonbelievers are wild beasts. In fact, you want to know how it has been in my own personal experience? The people that have f*cked me over the worst have been Christians (or so-called ones). I can't stand the self-righteousness. So, if some of you are wondering why some of the nonreligious have snide comments to the believers then maybe that could be your answer. Nonreligious can't stand the arrogant, self-righteous, holier than thou, I am right, you are wrong attitude.

 

Chastising sucks too. I refuse to listen to the "Christians" I know in my real life who want to sit there and preach at me then right after they get done they go steal, f*ck everybody over, well you get the picture. In my experience I find the religious to be the worst people because they need something to back up their hate or use as a cover up because they are such sh*tty people so Christianity makes them appear better to other people (or so they think). Just the other day a religous guy I know told me that the black people are descendents of Cain because in the bible it says that God "marked him" and so that must mean the black people are the cursed descendents of Cain. Please.

 

Get off your high horse. And of course I am not saying this applies to EVERYONE so don't go off on me just yet Moi. I do know ONE guy who is a Christian and he is one of the most wonderful people I know. He really does live his life right..not perfect but I can actually look at him and think to myself "you know I think he is sincere about this and he really is trying to be more like Christ" and he doesn't rub it in everyone's face either. I respect him a lot. But for the most part, "Christians" just like my psycho ex who told me God told him to stop talking to me because I am bad, turn my stomach to be honest. Again, just my opinion here. I don't want to generalize, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

[Chris777]

My junk mouse deleted my post I was writing before yours appeard, but it is better since I can anwser Your question at the same time.

 

Originally posted by RecordProducer

Why do Christians always recommend the Bible and talk about Christ???

Why doesn't anyone else talk about their gods and sacred books? Do you guys understand that not all people are Christians and that it's simply inappropriate to answer other people's posts with "Christ this, the Bible that..." At least make sure that you're talking to a Christian before you start persuading them how sweet Christ is!

 

When your child is sick, do you go down to a street corner on the bad side of town, and ask a dealer to sell you some heroine to help their cold?

 

I say that to make a point, many people, just up and assume, that since you see some people who proclaim that they come in the name of Christ, or that they are speaking for him, and then haul off and do something horrible,

The Inquisition was used earlier. that they somehow represent Christianity.

Do the africans that sold their own people to slave traders represent all africans?

Do the white people who founded the KKK represent all white people.

Do the Nazis represent all germans?

Do the Soldiers Who brutalized Iraqi prisoners Represent all of america?

 

Investigate further.

 

I have seen several posters claim that they outright reject christianity, because they feel like

God is portrayed as Brutal, and unfair. Especially by people that Claim to Follow him.

 

Ive seen several accusations made that the bible can't be trusted in that it was "probably" changed, to suit those who reprinted , and translated it. Look into it for yourself.

Look at motivations, and agendas.

 

The bible itself is written for a singular purpose. Which is clearly revealed if one bothers to read it, THEMSELF

 

If your child reaches up toward the stovetop for a pan, you are frying eggs in, do you , passively tell them, no sweetie please don't touch that.

Or do you smack their hand away hard enough to sting, and sternly say no, and if the ydo it again, pop them harder even if it ends up bringing them to tears?

 

If your child is playing outside in the yard with a ball, and it bounces out into the street.

Do you sit back and passively tell them , honey, please don't run out into the street.

Or do you yell at the top of your lungs NO STOP, while you are running after them, and then give them a pop on the rump to Remember it by?

 

How many people have disobeyed something their parents warned them not to do?

only to find out that your parents weren't so clueless after all, in trying to warn you.

Even though you aren't your parents, and You may not like their warnings to you, doesn't change the fact that their warnings were valid.

 

I want my child to Fear me, when I tell them something, I want them to stop and think about the punishment, I will give them if they disobey me.

I would rather them fear me, and submit to my authority over them, than to always show them love, and feel like they are my equal.

When you are Equals their is discussion, and barganing. and at times that is ok.

 

But no amount of discussion or barganing, will remove blindness, and or disfigurement from searing hot oil being dumped on the head of a toddler reaching for a frying pan.

 

apprehension, and distrust of my motives, and my authority will not amount to anything, if my child is slammed into by a speeding car, and drug 20 feet down the road, before it can come to a stop.

 

If I tell my child that a Drug Dealer is a MURDERER, and they don't believe me, because were "best buddies"

then their is a chance they will face the awful wrechedness, that is drug addiction.

 

I would rather welt their legs with a hickory than for them to stray off too far from home and get kidnapped by a pedophile or worse.

 

I want my children to fear me, because it keeps them out of the fire.

 

God gave us emotions, do you not think that he himself also has them?

 

I hear many so called Christians trying to sugar coat God , by saying not to fear him, and swapping FEAR for the politically correct "respect"

 

Jesus Said in Matt 10:28"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. "

 

God means business, when he says to fear him, don't think he does not. God is not mocked.

 

Try replacing the word Fear in the above verse with Respect. It doesn't work.

 

Their is a Reason to FEAR God. He doesn't compromise. When he says something will happen , it does.

Look at Adam and Eve he warned them, and because they didn't listen they died.

 

God is Fair, and Just, he gave the people plenty of chances to repent in the old testament before he passed judgement.

Egypt, Sodom and Gamorra, they were given the chance, and the warning.

They didn't listen, not because they did not respect him, but because they did not Fear him.

 

I tried using the titanic in an earlier post, but no one seemed to get it.

 

IF the titanic is already halfway to the bottom of the ocean, and you are flailing around in freezing water trying to stay afloat, and a life boat happens along, the only boat left in the area, and someone reaches out their hand to you to pull you into it, and you slap it away, because its not how you prefered to do things, or it didn't go your way.

Whose fault will it be if you drown?

 

If I tell my kids to stay away from the street corner on the bad side of town ,and anyone on it, or I will paddle them hard. and they don't obey?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You all assume people are inherently good, I used to, I was hopeful people would be all kind and nice like me.

 

I was wrong

 

I recently heard about a serial Torturer, who kidnapped at least 90 women , and drugged , and tortured them.

and the reason they know it was 90 was they found tapes of over 90 different women. Now this is the number the guy taped, Do you honestly believe that is all he harmed? Their is no punishment that mankind can ever give that will be justice for the people he has harmed. Its like Eric Rudolf , he killed alot of people, but their is no fair way to punish him, for the damage done.

 

God can, and Will.

They will Reap what they have sewn. Vengance is mine Sayeth the Lord.

 

People doubt the validity of the bible , by saying that people changed it , twisted it, and made it say whatever they wanted to to say, to controll others.

 

It sounds like a possibility, but their is a problem. The only people that can be manipulated by what the bible says

are those who dont know what it says. You throw up the Inquisition, and people Claiming to be christians, yet, in the very book that they claim to represent, they are depicted, as its opposite. Ignorance is not always bliss.

The only people manipulated by the bible are those who didnt have it. The inquisition wanted it out of the hands of the common man, Cults either add to it, diminish from it, or throw it out all together to manipulate people to their own will. Jim Jones was a good example, when his cult committed a mass suicide, they did not find one bible among them.

I used to believe the way you people do, mistrustful of it, which is a bit hypocritical since you supposedly believe all people are inherently good, dont you think?

 

But then I started READING IT MYSELF. and I ran a cross a verse saying not to add to it or take away from it or god would punish you.

 

Why do you suppose that warning is there?

 

Then it dawned on me, the whole distrust of people involved in copying , and translating the bible was a 2 way street. Sure I could doubt those who it was intristed to, but I never though about doubting those who detracted from it.

Then I looked into its history, and how it was compiled, and handed down.

and I also kept reading it, And I noticed something.

I could not find a way to manipulate it's words to controll other people.

Not if they also had access to it.

And if I couldnt find a way, then how could the people, who supposedly altered it, to suit their own needs?

 

Look for yourself, you won't find anything.

Sure you can pick snippets, and carefully "frame" verses, like satan tried to do when he tempted, Jesus, but You will not find anything that allows you to enslave people, if you slaves also have access to the bible.

 

then I stopped disagreeing with what the bible said, because I FEAR God , and I believe it when he says he will punish you if you alter it.

 

the Bible is like a recipe, a prescription, an instruction manual, a safety protocol on your job, exacting precise directions on how to assemble parts for a space shuttle, it is like a treasure map, quite litterally a guide back to God.

 

If you don't follow the recipe, the food will burn, if you don't take your prescription correctly, then you could overdose, or not help what its for, if you don't follow the protocols on your job, you or someone else could get hurt , or killed, and as we have all seen over the years, all it takes to obliterate a space shuttle is one faulty part someone, forgot, was to lazy, to do, or flat out didn't bother to check, If you dont follow the map to where X is marked, it doesn't matter how many holes you choose to dig , you will never find the treasure, and if you follow anything else, be it, the book of mormon, the koran, the vedas, the catholic chatechism, a bunch of so called scholars who dismiss the bible, or most importantly yourself, in your own pride , and willfulness to blaze a new trail where no one has ever returned. You will not be led back to God. It doesnt matter how well intentioned you are, what you do, Gandi did good, but He Denied Jesus, and If you choose to follow him, Budda, or yourself, you are ultimately doing the Devils work.

 

The very thing he tempted Eve with is the Very thing that we hear most often, Believe in yourself.

(You shall be as God)

 

 

to summarrize

Do you guys understand that not all people are Christians and that it's simply inappropriate to answer other people's posts with "Christ this, the Bible that..." At least make sure that you're talking to a Christian before you start persuading them how sweet Christ is!

 

the very same reason that i would reccomend that you stay off drugs, not drive drunk, not drop your kids off in the middle of the night, on the bad side of town.

 

I have been on your side of the fence, I know where it leads to, and I am trying to tell you to get on the lifeboats before the ship sinks, because if you wait around too long, doubting this ship is going down, you will end up drowned with all the others who thought they knew better.

[XNemesisX]

Hey Chris~

 

As confusedinoc would say "how about the reader's digest" version?

[Chris777]

Sorry I just End up seeing something in most post

I would like to Try to Get people to examine further, and end up writing an essay.

 

Maby I would do better replying to individual post seperately even if it ends up meing 3 or 4 post in a row

[Nicholas]

Originally posted by Chris777

When your child is sick, do you go down to a street corner on the bad side of town, and ask a dealer to sell you some heroine to help their cold?

It would depend on whom the heroine is--would I ask lysistrata to help me cure a cold? Probably not. Clara Barton? Now we're talking.

Ive seen several accusations made that the bible can't be trusted in that it was "probably" changed, to suit those who reprinted , and translated it. Look into it for yourself.

I have, and I can say for certain that the Bible we're reading today is not the same as the Bible that was read in Jesus' day, or even the Bible that was read a few hundred years ago.

 

Just today I read an article about how early copies of Revelations reveal (har har) that the mark of the beast is actually 616, and not 666. That's not surprising if you've ever been to Grand Rapids.

 

The bible itself is written for a singular purpose.

Not really. Some of it's poetic, some of it's historic, some of it's prophetic, some attempts to be biographical. The Bible is a composition of many things that were written for many purposes, written for many different audiences, and utilizing a variety of different literary techniques. It's the confusion thereof that leads to vulgar misintrepretations of scripture.

If your child reaches up toward the stovetop for a pan, you are frying eggs in, do you , passively tell them, no sweetie please don't touch that. Or do you smack their hand away hard enough to sting, and sternly say no, and if the ydo it again, pop them harder even if it ends up bringing them to tears?

Well, if you're a good Christian, you should make your wife cook for you.

Or do you yell at the top of your lungs NO STOP, while you are running after them, and then give them a pop on the rump to Remember it by?

I do find it interesting that your appeal to common sense also includes an endorsement of corporal punishment. I'd get into it, but we have threads for that.

But no amount of discussion or barganing, will remove blindness, and or disfigurement from searing hot oil being dumped on the head of a toddler reaching for a frying pan.

I also find it interesting you cook your eggs in oil.

 

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I see where you're going and it lacks validity. The fact that God is not a nice guy in certain parts of the Bible does not come from some grand collaboration of Biblical writers to make God seem like a good, but stern parent. It comes from the fact that different cultures have different roles for their dieties, and, like it or not, the Bible is composed of stories from many different cultures.

 

God gave us emotions, do you not think that he himself also has them?

That's a good theological question, maybe you should start a thread.

 

IF the titanic is already halfway to the bottom of the ocean, and you are flailing around in freezing water trying to stay afloat, and a life boat happens along, the only boat left in the area, and someone reaches out their hand to you to pull you into it, and you slap it away, because its not how you prefered to do things, or it didn't go your way.

Whose fault will it be if you drown?

I'm surprised you didn't construct your analogy so that the drowning people aren't then paddled with hickory to drive the point that you should take lifeboats when offered to you.

 

The idea that nonreligious, but good people are trying to get across is that they are not metaphorically drowning. They're fine without religion.

 

Its like Eric Rudolf , he killed alot of people, but their is no fair way to punish him, for the damage done.

How would you reccomend we punish the people who carry out acts of violence against homosexuals, or the people who bomb abortion clinics, or any other act of Christian violence?

 

The only people that can be manipulated by what the bible says are those who dont know what it says.

Do you read Hebrew? Greek? The point about translations is that things lose accuracy when they're translated from one language into another.

 

I could not find a way to manipulate it's words to controll other people.

Then wouldn't make a good fundamentalist tyrant--no skin off my back.

 

And if I couldnt find a way, then how could the people, who supposedly altered it, to suit their own needs?

 

Sure you can pick snippets, and carefully "frame" verses, like satan tried to do when he tempted, Jesus, but You will not find anything that allows you to enslave people, if you slaves also have access to the bible.

Did you not just quote a snippet of Matthew to prove a point that God is to be feared, and not respected?

 

Also, there are Biblical verses that condone slavery. In fact, Jesus blessed a slave and at no point made any admonishment of slavery--or, if he did, it wasn't written down.

You will not be led back to God. It doesnt matter how well intentioned you are, what you do, Gandi did good, but He Denied Jesus

It was the other way around. They wouldn't allow Ghandi into Christian churches because he was of a low caste.

 

In the end, if your interpretation of scripture allows you to believe that you're going to heaven, but Ghandi's in hell, then rock on. You don't need our approval, and I doubt you'll get it, no matter how persistent and eloquent you may become.

[XNemesisX]

For real. If anyone can say that they will be in heaven but Ghandi will be in hell because he "denied Christ" then you are crazy. That would put you under the exclusivist Christian title. Actually, the more "open minded" Christians are inclusivists (they wouldn't believe that Ghandi, or any other great person of another religion or culture would go to hell - there would be exceptions in other words).

 

I repeat from what I said above...this is what a lot of people despise. The arrogance and holier than thou attitude. In all probability, after we all die we will rot in the ground and be just like we were before we were born. There is always a chance it is something more, but how can you be so sure? Because God told you he is real? How do you know that is not your own thoughts telling you that?

 

You know what I hope? MY God would punish the hell out of the people who go around using him as a way to be hateful to others. My ex? Well he would punish him severely for using his name to repeatedly hurt another person. (i.e. "I can never talk to you again because God told me you are bad" "God does not like you" ) I hope he burns in hell for using God's name like that. I cannot speak for God but I know I would really loathe people who wanted to use me for their own benefit or to hurt other people or to try and bring themselves above others with. I would burn those people in hell. F*ck evil hypocrites. There is a fine line between not being perfect and being an all out narcissist using God to back you up and going around and treating people like hell and belittling other people when you are probably a much worse person than them. UGH:mad:

 

I really don't believe the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" ask yourself this. Do you think the nice, kind-hearted person who was not religious who treated others with respect, was good to others would be sent to hell while the Christian next door who treated other people like shyt and looked down others would get to go to heaven? Pfftt. Yeah right. Doesn't make sense.

[Nicholas]

XNemesisX : Narcissism is a great way to describe it, thanks.

[moimeme]

so don't go off on me just yet Moi.

 

Darn. And I had such a good head of steam building

 

MY God would punish the hell out of the people who go around using him as a way to be hateful to others

 

Mine, too. Then again, I imagine He has compassion for those who are so blinded by their self-congratulation on owning the 'Truth' since they are actually more in need of His forgiveness because they're so deluded they can't see.

[suegail]

Sure, you can be a good citizen - a law abiding person - charitable and considerate, just because it is your nature, or it is the way you were taught to be, the way you were raised.

 

I guess your question is can one 'dismiss' a belief in God altogether and live a 'good' life. Okay, you work hard, you are honest, or at least, you try not to lie to anyone, you'd never dishonor a friend, you respect your parents, you don't cheat on your wife. In your opinion, your life is 'good.'

 

Still, your question has to do with 'life' and as a Christian I believe life is eternal, and I believe that from the beginning we were created to worship God. He created us that way and for that purpose. Regardless of how things change in the world we live in now, God will be God, and it is His desire, not His command, that we all have eternal life in Heaven by accepting the gift He offers us.

 

Yes, you can live 70, 80 or more respectable, relatively calm years here and still have pushed God totally out of your life, but it is a choice and a tragic choice to have made in my opinion.

[faux]

If you are asking whether a person can have strong morals, without ever becoming involved in a religion, then I must say yes, he can.

 

Ethics and morality are based upon what is deemed acceptable by society as a whole, what is correct behavior for humanity, and what is unacceptable behavior. Religion does not have to enter into this.

 

Additionally, persons who do not practice a religious faith are most likely surrounded by those who do, and understand the belief systems related to those various walks of life. Morals relate to society itself, and often reflect commonly accepted ideas of what is good and what is bad.

 

Although I am not religious, I find that I learn a great deal from those who are. I also find that my religious friends have learned a great deal from me.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Nicholas

My points were:

 

1. Nonreligious people who proclaim to be open-minded and who claim to innocently ask questions about religion often really don't care about the answers, and are difficult to deal with.

 

Do NOT claim to speak for everyone.

[MassiveAtom]

I know I haven't offerred much in this discussion, save the start of the thread, but I gotta say, you all have some brilliant minds. Yeah, yeah, brilliance is just shy of insanity, , but this stuff is better that Voltaire!

 

I do in fact care about all of the answers. See, I have kids and I'd like to have a good handle on what sorts of people they'll come in contact with when they begin their religious exploration. That way I can lovingly guide them through the more difficult-to-grasp parts, like how some people advocate using fear and cororal punishment in childrearing, (something I don't use so they'll never know) and how to reconcile it with their own experience.

 

Just for the record, frying eggs in a little olive oil is "Heaven" but I'd never hit my kid, just turn the handle in before she has the chance or don't leave the pan and the kid unattended.

 

Great thread!

 

A-N-Y way....!

 

carry on...

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Chris777

 

 

If your child reaches up toward the stovetop for a pan, you are frying eggs in, do you , passively tell them, no sweetie please don't touch that.

Or do you smack their hand away hard enough to sting, and sternly say no, and if the ydo it again, pop them harder even if it ends up bringing them to tears?

 

If your child is playing outside in the yard with a ball, and it bounces out into the street.

Do you sit back and passively tell them , honey, please don't run out into the street.

Or do you yell at the top of your lungs NO STOP, while you are running after them, and then give them a pop on the rump to Remember it by?

 

How many people have disobeyed something their parents warned them not to do?

only to find out that your parents weren't so clueless after all, in trying to warn you.

Even though you aren't your parents, and You may not like their warnings to you, doesn't change the fact that their warnings were valid.

 

I want my child to Fear me, when I tell them something, I want them to stop and think about the punishment, I will give them if they disobey me.

I would rather them fear me, and submit to my authority over them, than to always show them love, and feel like they are my equal.

When you are Equals their is discussion, and barganing. and at times that is ok.

 

But, doesn't this equate God to human frailties? If the Christian God that I was taught about were as powerful and all-knowing as I would have been led to believe, He wouldn't have knee-jerk reactions to the sins and discretions of His creations.

 

You bring up some good points -- I've heard similar things expressed before, but I've never found it to mesh with what I was taught by ministers and Sunday school teachers, etc. It's still manipulation by fear -- even if the fear-punishment is based on love.

 

I guess that is why I don't buy the Bible. The written Bible was filtered by man's own hand and before it was written the stories were passed on verbally by human beings---again being filtered and subject to interpretations and explanations designed to fit those who are being taught.

 

There may be some facts within the text, but I have yet to see a key that would unlock those facts. There is no Rosetta Stone or mathematical equation that can prove or disprove the writings in the Bible or the teachings of God and Jesus---or any other deity or prophet.

[RecordProducer]

Obviously nobody understood my question. Some people are NOT Christians. Why do you talk about the Bible all the time?

My God didn't write the Bible!

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by RecordProducer

Why do Christians always recommend the Bible and talk about Christ???

Why doesn't anyone else talk about their gods and sacred books? Do you guys understand that not all people are Christians and that it's simply inappropriate to answer other people's posts with "Christ this, the Bible that..." At least make sure that you're talking to a Christian before you start persuading them how sweet Christ is!

 

Most of the people who post in this section come from a Christian background so the most common frame of reference is the Christian Bible. The Christian Bible is the one book that guides Christians, so naturally it's going to be prevalent. If someone starts a thread about Allah or Buddha or any other deity or religious book (Koran, etc.) then those who are familiar with that particular Deity, or those who want to ask more questions about that faith can reply. Or they can answer the topic with references from their own belief system. No one is stopping them from doing that. Are there any Islam here who would like to comment on morality without God? I would be interested in hearing some references and thoughts on that too.

 

I'm not Christian but I understand and respect that for those who are, they want to share something that they feel is of absolute importance and that makes them happy and complete. I don't think that is inappropriate at all. If I were to attempt to sway people to a belief in Christ as represented in the Christian Bible, that would be inappropriate because I am not of that faith. I'm very interested in how faith guides people's thoughts and actions. I find it a fascinating topic from a sociological standpoint.

[Chris777]

Originally posted by Nicholas

I have, and I can say for certain that the Bible we're reading today is not the same as the Bible that was read in Jesus' day, or even the Bible that was read a few hundred years ago.

 

Just today I read an article about how early copies of Revelations reveal (har har) that the mark of the beast is actually 616, and not 666. That's not surprising if you've ever been to Grand Rapids.

Got a link?

 

I do find it interesting that your appeal to common sense also includes an endorsement of corporal punishment. I'd get into it, but we have threads for that.

did you notice the explanation for WHY as well?

I also find it interesting you cook your eggs in oil..

Actualy I don't cook eggs that often, and it was the 1st thing that popped into my mind, I just thought that hot oil would be a better example of danger than say a pot of soup, since oil can reach higher temps, but again people read apparently what they want to and disregard the rest.

 

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I see where you're going and it lacks validity. The fact that God is not a nice guy in certain parts of the Bible does not come from some grand collaboration of Biblical writers to make God seem like a good, but stern parent.

it only lacks validity if You don't look deeper, than the surface, like most who call god this big ruthless cruel monster.

 

Like i used the parenting examples for, yet people continue to not question why? Why? Why?

they just balk when they read something they disagree with, and move on, or insult.

 

It comes from the fact that different cultures have different roles for their dieties, and, like it or not, the Bible is composed of stories from many different cultures.

I am A bit confused to exactly what you do in fact believe, as you have given some seemingly conflicting post elsewhere.

But i ask that you think on this: If you believe the bible, hypothetically speaking. and its the Devils goal of existence to divert people from it. What are some of the better methods of doing just that?

 

Now to throw some more fuel on that one also ponder this.

Moses who is attributed to writing the pentatech Was NOT present during either the creation, or the flood, yet he was chosen by god to write about them, and give a True account of them many, many years after they occured.

 

Yet their are other "explanations, for those 2 events in many extant sources from the bible.

Do you not suppose that it might be possible that the devil, or one of his angels, "suggested" those extant stories, and the myths, and religions at that time, so that he might discredit the bible when more "evolved" and "inteligent" people came along at a later date?

 

Now keep in mind this is a suggestion, a possibility, but THINK about it. The bible says we are in a WAR. Very few wars are fought without strategy.

 

And i hate getting suggestive, as i feel like the "creation scientist" whom i also disagree with.

 

because I dont agree with them using the same tactics, as Evolutionist, to try and "prove" creationism, which is NOT the bible.

 

 

I'm surprised you didn't construct your analogy so that the drowning people aren't then paddled with hickory to drive the point that you should take lifeboats when offered to you.

Lost me on this one?

 

The idea that nonreligious, but good people are trying to get across is that they are not metaphorically drowning. They're fine without religion.

Is that not a matter of both your and their opinion?

It was asked why christians speak the way we do. IT was also implied it was out of superiority. the point of the analogy was to demonstrate it wasnt a superior attitude, it was a factual one (IF ONE IN FACT BELIEVES THE BIBLE)

 

I Will Try and say it plain as day. The bible clearly states that Jesus, is the ABSOLUTE, SINGULAR, SOLE, ONLY, WAY, of ANYONE attaining salvation.

 

By the BIBLE STATING IT, it RULES OUT EVERY single other faith, belief, notion, religion, science, philosophy, logic, dogma, whatever.

 

I being a Christian, believe what the bible states. So therefore it is not "my " belief, or "my" superior attitude, but in fact what the WORD OF GOD states.

It does not matter if i like it, if i disagree with it, or if it doubt it. it will happen, that way, period.

 

It is not a matter of "my" God , or Your "God", or president Bushes "God"

 

IT is simply what the bible states.

Whether you believe it, or i believe it, or Bush believes it( which apparently he doesn't fully like many and "liberal about it", but thats another topic)

 

 

How would you reccomend we punish the people who carry out acts of violence against homosexuals, or the people who bomb abortion clinics, or any other act of Christian violence?

So are you saying that the attacks on the pentagon and world trade center were acts of Muslim violence?

 

OR for that matter the abuse of the iraqui prisoners of war, was that an act of american military abuse?

 

I say judge them by their fruit for who they TRUELY are.

 

And again you totally missed (or skipped) the point. that their are crimes that mankind cannot fairly punish.

 

Do you read Hebrew? Greek? The point about translations is that things lose accuracy when they're translated from one language into another.

 

I have compared them I have an interlinear New Testament, and am looking for the OT, in hebrew, but in my comparisons of the text, I have not noticed any major translational mishaps, in the older translations, the newer ones are far to liberal, and claim to know the "thoughts of God" when they translate, and end up making up what they think God meant, Not what the text says.

 

 

Then wouldn't make a good fundamentalist tyrant--no skin off my back.

The point was that if everyone has equal access to the bible then no one person, could then use the bible to controll the others, like a tyrant, because the scripture has "checks and balances" so to speak, so that if someone like many of you claim were say indiscriminately fornicating with severaal women to "start his own poligamous commune" then you , and everyone else could look at the bible and SEE FOR YOURSELF that his deeds did not line up with scripture. (and before i get a reply, the old and new testaments were different covenants, and many things were tolerated during the OT such as the nations of the worlds ignorance of God that were no longer tolerated under the new covenant)

 

Did you not just quote a snippet of Matthew to prove a point that God is to be feared, and not respected? .

Did You not just ask a couple of quotes ago if i knew Greek, look up the word in this verse, and go ahead and look at the whole chapter, I didnt use this verse as a frame, i used it to show that even if you took the whole passafe you could not exchange fear for respect in it.

 

Also, there are Biblical verses that condone slavery. In fact, Jesus blessed a slave and at no point made any admonishment of slavery--or, if he did, it wasn't written down..

Not all slave masters are wicked and evil, Christians are to be slaves of christ. It is a Perspective issue, like many women who have issue with being subordinate to their husbands,

The whole world is fallen, and corrupt, and even evil governments, such as communism, and even socialism, as wicked, as they are served a purpose, to keep anarchy at bay, which would be far worse that the poor governments that were or are in controll, Look AT IRAQ for a perfect example.

 

Also note that Jesus did not admonish the Roman idols either. that was not his purpose, during his 1st coming, it was to gather the flock, when he returns will be judgement.

 

It was the other way around. They wouldn't allow Ghandi into Christian churches because he was of a low caste.

In the end, if your interpretation of scripture allows you to believe that you're going to heaven, but Ghandi's in hell, then rock on. You don't need our approval, and I doubt you'll get it, no matter how persistent and eloquent you may become.

Like I said earlier apparently he didnt bother to read about discerning christians by their fruit,

So he decided to disregard the scripture, and seek his own way, (becoming his own god) and practicing lawlesness (anarchy) by his civil disobedience. Jesus was peaceful, yes, but he also obeyed the laws, of the governing authorities. (even the authoroty of the heathen romans)

 

And it again isn't my interpretation, it is the very words of Christ, that he is the way, the truth, and the life.

 

Gandi refused to believe them, as apparently you and others do.

 

And again I am not seeking approval, just trying to clear up some issues, that are misrepresented, or prejudiced on.

 

It does neither me, nor anyone else any good at trying to sugar coat the truth.