How do I avoid making the same mistakes again?

[Itspointless]

I'm crying on the phone, asking how he could truly not care if he never saw me again, and silence...

You deserve someone who misses you just as much as you miss him Rams. It is painful but unfortunately what apparently is on your path in life to learn right now. You know you deserve more than that response.

[Diezel]

I've probably already said this verbatim at some part of this thread, but this thread is the textbook definition of insanity.

[Itspointless]

I've probably already said this verbatim at some part of this thread, but this thread is the textbook definition of insanity.

Love often is described as a temporary insanity driven by hormones. Add to that a childhood where you had to work for love with at least one of the parents followed with abusive boyfriends and we are unfortunately there.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Itspointless

[rams10]

Thank you, itspointless. I'm simply torn! Should I be focusing on how to get him back- is it somehow Excusable that he finally said "I love you" back for the first time after over a year, then immediately tried to sneak out to a bar with a single

Girl at midnight? should I really be apologizing to him and swearing that I'll never bring up the future again and I'll just wait for him to propose no matter how many years it might take (as he would never give me any idea)?

[Itspointless]

Thank you, itspointless. I'm simply torn! Should I be focusing on how to get him back- is it somehow Excusable that he finally said "I love you" back for the first time after over a year, then immediately tried to sneak out to a bar with a single Girl at midnight? should I really be apologizing to him and swearing that I'll never bring up the future again and I'll just wait for him to propose no matter how many years it might take (as he would never give me any idea)?

You definitely shouldn't be apologizing. I know you want him back, but Rams, in honesty he should be apologizing to you. I know that you are accustomed to wait, but seriously I do not see this leading to anything than you walking on eggshells for the rest of your life. His behaviour is incredibly egoistic.

 

Somehow I get the feeling that deep down you feel you will fail him if you bail?

[organizedchaos]

Thank you, itspointless. I'm simply torn! Should I be focusing on how to get him back- is it somehow Excusable that he finally said "I love you" back for the first time after over a year, then immediately tried to sneak out to a bar with a single

Girl at midnight? should I really be apologizing to him and swearing that I'll never bring up the future again and I'll just wait for him to propose no matter how many years it might take (as he would never give me any idea)?

 

I"m interested in hearing your answers to my questions:

 

1. Why do you want to be in a relationship with someone where you are forbidden to ask where the relationship is going?
   
2. Why would you want to waste your life with someone who might decide to never marry you and you're not allowed to ask about that?
   
3. Why do you want to give someone that kind of power over your life?
   

[Itspointless]

Hi Rams, if you are honest to yourself, how many traits of the ten does your ex show?: 10 Signs That You're Dating An Emotional Psychopath

[purpledooze]

There must be a way to convince him the pain of losing him has changed me enough that I'll never bring up marriage again!!!

 

Give him space. Lots of space. Because you will bring up marriage again. Relationships are hardly what movies show them to be. He won't propose to you out of the blue. Marriages are discussed way before proposals are even done. So yea. You will eventually have to talk about marriage. The way it looks is, he's considering marrying you. But he wants to see what else is out there. He needs to know he's not SETTLING with you. Your behavior and manner of communicating your needs so far demonstrates that if he does choose to marry you, he'd be SETTLING. And this isn't about degrees or salaries. No way, in any of the conversations you described having with him, are you acting like a PARTNER, which is what marriages are supposed to be.

 

He needs space. You need to support him with this. You nagged him about marriage. He told you want he felt you needed to hear, but deep down inside he needs to sort things out. Whether he needs another woman to figure this out, it's up to him.

 

Your relationship is over. You telling him stuff like "how can you be so cruel..." blah blah.. "how is it so easy for you to let go.." or somewhere along those lines puts him in a VERY UNCOMFORTABLE SPOT. And this pushed him further away. If you were in his shoes, how would you have responded? Before saying anything, always, always put yourself in his shoes. Learn that lesson and apply it with your next boyfriend.

 

Silence was all the answer he could give you because it's hard for him to see you like this. Losing respect for someone you cared for is a very uncomfortable experience, one you had to put him through by you constantly looking for answers and calling him.

 

Right now your best bet, however slim your chances are, is to walk away.

[Itspointless]

Give him space. Lots of space. Because you will bring up marriage again. Relationships are hardly what movies show them to be. He won't propose to you out of the blue. Marriages are discussed way before proposals are even done. So yea. You will eventually have to talk about marriage. The way it looks is, he's considering marrying you. But he wants to see what else is out there. He needs to know he's not SETTLING with you. Your behavior and manner of communicating your needs so far demonstrates that if he does choose to marry you, he'd be SETTLING. And this isn't about degrees or salaries. No way, in any of the conversations you described having with him, are you acting like a PARTNER, which is what marriages are supposed to be.

 

He needs space. You need to support him with this. You nagged him about marriage. He told you want he felt you needed to hear, but deep down inside he needs to sort things out. Whether he needs another woman to figure this out, it's up to him.

 

Your relationship is over. You telling him stuff like "how can you be so cruel..." blah blah.. "how is it so easy for you to let go.." or somewhere along those lines puts him in a VERY UNCOMFORTABLE SPOT. And this pushed him further away. If you were in his shoes, how would you have responded? Before saying anything, always, always put yourself in his shoes. Learn that lesson and apply it with your next boyfriend.

 

Silence was all the answer he could give you because it's hard for him to see you like this. Losing respect for someone you cared for is a very uncomfortable experience, one you had to put him through by you constantly looking for answers and calling him.

 

Right now your best bet, however slim your chances are, is to walk away.

That is good advice purpledooze, except that this guy really does not deserve more understanding. That perhaps sounds very harsh, but with what I have read here I rather would see him neutered if I am honest to you. As a compensation it might give him an opportunity to a singing career.

[purpledooze]

That is good advice purpledooze, except that this guy really does not deserve more understanding. That perhaps sounds very harsh, but with what I have read here I rather would see him neutered if I am honest to you. As a compensation it might give him an opportunity to a singing career.

 

Thanks. We can't do anything about the guy anyway. OP might as well work on her approaches and communication skills. Starting with DETACHMENT. My aunt used to tell me:

 

Behind every crazy girlfriend is an a-hole, and VICE VERSA.

 

He seems like a guy who's afraid to show his feelings, avoidant. Let's assume I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. (We don't know his side)

 

I've been reading a lot about neuro-linguistic programming. How people react to what we say and do depends on what we put forth. So I'll point out a few things that the OP can work on that might increase her chances of (1) being taken seriously by the ex, (2) being treated right by the ex.

 

1. When teased about putting a ring on it after she moved in with him, he told his friend it feels good to pay only 1/2 of the rent. How did OP know about this anyway? Did she talk to said friend? If she was around when he said it to his friend, it might have been in jest and she shouldn't take this statement seriously. If he did say this without her around, it means he's not the type of person to be sensitive about his feelings to others (which she confirms in later posts). If latter is true, this brings us to my other question: how did she know?? If she talked to the friend, this is indicative of BOUNDARY ISSUES (i.e. talking to his friends/family, how did she know about the texts being deleted?)

 

2. When the OP asked her ex to come to bed with her and he responded with "you're not a 5 year old" or something along those lines, how she worded her request or approached him with her need prompted that reply. Was she acting like a child?

 

3.

Well he knew I had a guy friend and I'd send him pics of my family and he'd call me on the phone. But we've been friends for 10 years and id always take his calls in front of my boyfriend and told him everything so no secrecy. That was the difference to me- I wasn't hiding and deleting texts

Like ItsPointless said, this difference is crucial. He may have been hiding it because he was afraid of how you would react, even though the texts may have been just harmless. If you're getting so worked up about him HIDING the messages, how much more worked up would you be if you knew what those text messages were about? Two possibilities: he was cheating (which you shouldn't tolerate) OR he was talking to someone else about his problems with you (which means he doesn't feel SAFE enough to be vulnerable around you and talk to you directly about his problems with you).

 

My point is, change your approach. Then maybe, just maybe, you'll see he'll change his approach too. I've seen *******s do a complete 180 for the right woman. Heck, one of my ex's used to do drugs, get himself arrested for the heck of it, sleep around. When he met me, even his own mother thanked me. He quit drugs, went to college, graduated, cleaned up his act, to pursue a committed, exclusive relationship with me. (We broke up amicably because he had to move permanently to Europe for work, but we're both not ready to get married).

 

Best bet is for you to WALK AWAY.

Edited September 24, 2015 by purpledooze

[Itspointless]

I like the way you think purpledooze, with some of the questions put forward I cannot remember anymore of Rams did fill in those gaps, as this thread is going on for a while now (which is my doing as well). I think with some things she did ...

 

I do agree too that the dynamic between the two is also of most importance here, if Rams wants to learn from all of this.

[purpledooze]

I like the way you think purpledooze, with some of the questions put forward I cannot remember anymore of Rams did fill in those gaps, as this thread is going on for a while now (which is my doing as well). I think with some things she did ...

 

I do agree too that the dynamic between the two is also of most importance here, if Rams wants to learn from all of this.

 

I'm willing to bet that the OP isn't even sure if she truly, genuinely loves this guy, or if her deep, seemingly irrational WANT for him is triggered by her ego. Love in it's purest sense isn't selfish, nor can it be given while depriving yourself. She said she didn't find him attractive and that there was no "deep" connection during their dating phase. Once attention and affection was withdrawn, she started wanting him to the point that the mere act of "being handed" a toothpaste made her feel loved, acknowledged -- extreme case of neediness. If you're right about the guy being an a-hole, then he has her dancing on the palm of his hand.

 

To the OP, the reason why we're advising you to let go and walk away is because separation is the key and it will answer ALL your questions and uncertainties about this guy:

 

1. Do I NEED this relationship/marriage, or do I WANT it because it can be a good extension of my own life?

2. Does he really WANT and LOVE me? Does he mean what he says? Does he value me? (If the answer to these three is a resounding YES, he will chase you and lock you down. But he can't chase you when you're constantly in his face trying to influence his decisions).

 

Him not wanting to marry you shouldn't be the end of your world. Marriage is 100% about PARTNERSHIP. Do you really want to spend the rest of your days or grow old with someone who can't give you the affection you need? If the two of you were good communicators, then you can sit down and list down your personal needs and discuss (like ADULTS) whether you can meet them or not. Eye rolling, talking to friends/family instead of each other, looking through phones.. that's not good communication. Maybe this is what he's been trying to tell you through his actions: that marriage is the least of your worries because your relationship is a sinking ship.

[rams10]

 

 

 

1. When teased about putting a ring on it after she moved in with him, he told his friend it feels good to pay only 1/2 of the rent. How did OP know about this anyway? Did she talk to said friend?

 

2. When the OP asked her ex to come to bed with her and he responded with "you're not a 5 year old" or something along those lines, how she worded her request or approached him with her need prompted that reply. Was she acting like a child?

 

3. Like ItsPointless said, this difference is crucial. He may have been hiding it because he was afraid of how you would react, even though the texts may have been just harmless. If you're getting so worked up about him HIDING the messages, how much more worked up would you be if you knew what those text messages were about?

Two possibilities: he was cheating (which you shouldn't tolerate) OR he was talking to someone else about his problems with you (which means he doesn't feel SAFE enough to be vulnerable around you and talk to you directly about his problems with you).

 

 

1. I read his texts. Why was I motivated to do that? Because the whole relationship he'd always been so secretive and just didn't communicate well. First time I read them: I found out he'd had a single girl friend over his place alone, and also went to brunch with her a few times while we were dating, but not bc he ever mentioned casually hanging w her- but rather bc the girl referred to it in front of him. Then, about 6 months in to our relationship, we'd had a date night planned. My ex was late, claimed he'd come right from work. But something felt off. So then I looked at his texts & found out this same girl and asked him to get a drink w their coworkers that night & Said "was hoping you'd take me home after ;)" so that's where he really was.

 

2. Definitely not. I said something like "I know you wanted to get some stuff done tonight & thus we couldn't spend any time together tonight- but do you think you could just come to bed for a couple minutes and cuddle till I fall asleep?"

3. If it was just him wantin to vent to the girl/hang out w a friend, then why'd he spend many days after that night flirting- saying how good she looked in a group pic from their summer job, saying he wanted more pics of her, secretly joining snapchat just to add her, telling her he'd definitely come over her apt to drink her liquor w her next time she's back in town?

[organizedchaos]

1. I read his texts. Why was I motivated to do that? Because the whole relationship he'd always been so secretive and just didn't communicate well. First time I read them: I found out he'd had a single girl friend over his place alone, and also went to brunch with her a few times while we were dating, but not bc he ever mentioned casually hanging w her- but rather bc the girl referred to it in front of him. Then, about 6 months in to our relationship, we'd had a date night planned. My ex was late, claimed he'd come right from work. But something felt off. So then I looked at his texts & found out this same girl and asked him to get a drink w their coworkers that night & Said "was hoping you'd take me home after ;)" so that's where he really was.

 

2. Definitely not. I said something like "I know you wanted to get some stuff done tonight & thus we couldn't spend any time together tonight- but do you think you could just come to bed for a couple minutes and cuddle till I fall asleep?"

3. If it was just him wantin to vent to the girl/hang out w a friend, then why'd he spend many days after that night flirting- saying how good she looked in a group pic from their summer job, saying he wanted more pics of her, secretly joining snapchat just to add her, telling her he'd definitely come over her apt to drink her liquor w her next time she's back in town?

 

For the third time:

 

1. Why do you want to be in a relationship with someone where you are forbidden to ask where the relationship is going?

2. Why would you want to waste your life with someone who might decide to never marry you and you're not allowed to ask about that?

3. Why do you want to give someone that kind of power over your life?

 

 

And to add to that

 

 

4. Why do you want to be with someone who you trust so little you have to read his texts? That's not normal. Know how many times I've done this in my year+ relationship? Zero.

5. Why do you want to be with someone who "hangs" out with other women?

[rams10]

For the third time:

 

1. Why do you want to be in a relationship with someone where you are forbidden to ask where the relationship is going?

2. Why would you want to waste your life with someone who might decide to never marry you and you're not allowed to ask about that?

3. Why do you want to give someone that kind of power over your life?

 

 

And to add to that

 

 

4. Why do you want to be with someone who you trust so little you have to read his texts? That's not normal. Know how many times I've done this in my year+ relationship? Zero.

5. Why do you want to be with someone who "hangs" out with other women?

 

1,2,3. I hated every moment of that. I don't know if it's because his foreign culture doesn't respect women as equals or what. It's bad when the first time he met my mom, she mentioned how he was making fun of my job right in front of her/ rolled his eyes at something I said

 

4. I never looked at my previous guy's texts in 8 years together either. But with my most recent ex I felt something was off... And from the stories I posted above, can you blame me??

 

5. Hanging out would be one thing. Keeping a girl completely secret and asking her for photos bc she looked so "good" in the one he had... A few days after claiming for the first time that he loved

Me and would marry me Someday... Quite another

Edited September 27, 2015 by rams10

[Simon Phoenix]

1,2,3. I hated every moment of that. I don't know if it's because his foreign culture doesn't respect women as equals or what. It's bad when the first time he met my mom, she mentioned how he was making fun of my job right in front of her/ rolled his eyes at something I said

 

4. I never looked at my previous guy's texts in 8 years together either. But with my most recent ex I felt something was off... And from the stories I posted above, can you blame me??

 

5. Hanging out would be one thing. Keeping a girl completely secret and asking her for photos bc she looked so "good" in the one he had... A few days after claiming for the first time that he loved

Me and would marry me Someday... Quite another

 

Then why the hell are you pining and continuing to obsess about this? Everything about this situation is wrong and you know it. Yet, you continue to pine for it.

[rams10]

Then why the hell are you pining and continuing to obsess about this? Everything about this situation is wrong and you know it. Yet, you continue to pine for it.

 

 

Good question but easy to answer. I didn't love the person he truly was- I find multiple aspects of his character to be quite honest. Deception? Needing attention from other women? Inexpressive of feelings to the point he hadn't told me "I love you" back over a year and rarely said anything warm or nice to me? BUT what I loved was his job (same "high-standing" one as my own)- felt like of course he'd truly "get" me and relate to me because of that... As well as the fact that him being generally cold and uncaring about people made me feel a rush like I'd really "won" him over when he did pay any attention, and he dressed nicely and behaved graciously in public. But- guess what- I can find those same qualities in other men.

[Itspointless]

Good question but easy to answer. I didn't love the person he truly was- I find multiple aspects of his character to be quite honest. Deception? Needing attention from other women? Inexpressive of feelings to the point he hadn't told me "I love you" back over a year and rarely said anything warm or nice to me? BUT what I loved was his job (same "high-standing" one as my own)- felt like of course he'd truly "get" me and relate to me because of that... As well as the fact that him being generally cold and uncaring about people made me feel a rush like I'd really "won" him over when he did pay any attention, and he dressed nicely and behaved graciously in public. But- guess what- I can find those same qualities in other men.

Rams, I see your last two posts you are writing in past tense.

 

Please do not search for someone new who seems to be cold and uncaring about people. If I might give you an example, all the people here are the opposite. Would those guys ever help anyone with anything?

[purpledooze]

You can't get him back. Not in the state of mind you're in.

 

First, never ever go through someone else's texts. Even with married couples this is unhealthy and it breaches boundaries. It clearly necessitates his need of space from you.

 

He's interested in another woman. His attention is on her right now. He's attracted to her, not you. For a whole lot of reasons. For one, that girl isn't pressuring him into marriage.

 

He told you what you needed to hear about marriage. His actions clearly show he doesn't love you.

 

Leave him alone. Walk away.

[Itspointless]

First, never ever go through someone else's texts. Even with married couples this is unhealthy and it breaches boundaries. It clearly necessitates his need of space from you.

I have done that too with my first girlfriend long ago when she wanted a break with me.cIt gave me the answers I needed, I do not regret doing that as she left me in a void.

[rams10]

You can't get him back. Not in the state of mind you're in.

 

First, never ever go through someone else's texts. Even with married couples this is unhealthy and it breaches boundaries. It clearly necessitates his need of space from you.

 

He's interested in another woman. His attention is on her right now. He's attracted to her, not you. For a whole lot of reasons. For one, that girl isn't pressuring him into marriage.

 

He told you what you needed to hear about marriage. His actions clearly show he doesn't love you.

 

Leave him alone. Walk away.

In this post you make me sound like the bad guy. Don't go through texts? What about the fact that I did it bc I sensed he was lying about the reason for delaying our date night- and I was right. Or I sensed he was lying when he said he'd just wanted to go out alone to a bar, when in reality he'd asked a single girl to meet him there at midnight - and I was right. Or he didn't want me pressuring him about marriage, but what about the fact that I wasn't thrilled to be told "I will marry You someday when I decide, but if you keep bringing it up then I'll dump you"?

[Itspointless]

In this post you make me sound like the bad guy. Don't go through texts? What about the fact that I did it bc I sensed he was lying about the reason for delaying our date night- and I was right. Or I sensed he was lying when he said he'd just wanted to go out alone to a bar, when in reality he'd asked a single girl to meet him there at midnight - and I was right. Or he didn't want me pressuring him about marriage, but what about the fact that I wasn't thrilled to be told "I will marry You someday when I decide, but if you keep bringing it up then I'll dump you"?

I knew it, you are able of speaking up, although purpledooze is trying to help you here. So I get that you you are angry with your guy? How does that make you feel?

[organizedchaos]

In this post you make me sound like the bad guy. Don't go through texts? What about the fact that I did it bc I sensed he was lying about the reason for delaying our date night- and I was right. Or I sensed he was lying when he said he'd just wanted to go out alone to a bar, when in reality he'd asked a single girl to meet him there at midnight - and I was right. Or he didn't want me pressuring him about marriage, but what about the fact that I wasn't thrilled to be told "I will marry You someday when I decide, but if you keep bringing it up then I'll dump you"?

 

Marriage is a partnership. A two way street. Why does he get to decide when you're worthy? There is nothing good about this at all. You are both the bad guys here.

[CarrieT]

Inexpressive of feelings to the point he hadn't told me "I love you" back over a year and rarely said anything warm or nice to me? BUT what I loved was his job

You would want to marry someone who rarely had a kind word for you but YOU LOVE HIS JOB!?!?

 

How can you base a lifetime relationship on someone's career?

 

As well as the fact that him being generally cold and uncaring about people made me feel a rush like I'd really "won" him over when he did pay any attention, and he dressed nicely and behaved graciously in public.

So you get off on the game of eliciting a positive response from him and his clothes.

 

But again, how can you base a lifetime relationship on things like this? What would make you want to?

 

But- guess what- I can find those same qualities in other men.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

You *can* find those qualities in other men.

 

But my question remains:

 

Why would you want to base a lifetime on:

A) Their Job

B) The Powerplay you thrive on

C) Their Clothes

 

 

Rams, don't you see how incredibly superficial all this has been based on? How unhealthy it is?

[purpledooze]

In this post you make me sound like the bad guy. Don't go through texts? What about the fact that I did it bc I sensed he was lying about the reason for delaying our date night- and I was right. Or I sensed he was lying when he said he'd just wanted to go out alone to a bar, when in reality he'd asked a single girl to meet him there at midnight - and I was right. Or he didn't want me pressuring him about marriage, but what about the fact that I wasn't thrilled to be told "I will marry You someday when I decide, but if you keep bringing it up then I'll dump you"?

 

There are so many more non-invasive ways of getting the truth out of someone. Regardless of their intentions for the lie, whether good or bad, it doesn't justify the fact that what you did invades his privacy. If my boyfriend did that to me, I would feel violated, even if I did something wrong, even if I cheated. It gives me reason to justify my own shortcomings.

 

"I will marry You someday when I decide, but if you keep bringing it up then I'll dump you"

 

Then take faith in the fact that reassured you that he will marry you. Just don't count on it. The best thing you could have done is CHILL. Work on your feminine energy. Right now, you're not emanating that. You needed to be a place of solace, source of comfort for him. If he was cheating, it was his choice but in most cases, people cheat because some needs of theirs aren't being met. Turn your negative traits into positive ones. Learn how to communicate without seeming confrontational.

 

He's acting like an *******, judging from the things you describe, possible reasons are:

 

1. He's doing that to test your boundaries. Wants to know how much you're willing to tolerate before you dump him. If you keep settling and settling, your value diminishes to zero in his eyes. By the time this happens, dumping him will be basically giving him what he wants.

 

2. From his POV, he's given up. He doesn't care. He's using work as a distraction, outlet for his frustrations with you.

 

If you feel your needs are really not being met, put your foot down. Men value women who value themselves.

 

Emotionally available people LOVE their FREEDOM. Anything, any subtle sign that threatens that, they run like hell.