Aromantic, kids, self-sacrifice, and the borderline...

[SoMuchMore]

My wife doesn’t think the same way most people do. In many ways she now fits what is called “aromantic” – a person who experiences little or no romantic attraction to others. We've been together 25 years and that wasn’t the case in the early years. I’ve put a ton of effort and love into the relationship trying to understand her and make it better but the typical solutions haven't worked.

 

She doesn’t like giving affection and doesn’t want mine. She hates celebrating our anniversary or reminiscing about our relationship over the years. She rarely respects my viewpoint. She is repulsed by anything romantic or sexual, not just between us – whenever it comes up in conversation or in movies she winces and ridicules it. She says she doesn’t find me physically attractive. She essentially doesn’t want any part of what makes a marriage, but when confronted she says she loves me and wouldn’t change a thing.

 

We’ve had many conversations and she is very consistent about not wanting to talk about it or analyze herself. She flatly refuses to go to counseling, so I’ve been going alone to an MC for over a year. It makes it hard to know how she feels but I don’t think she really does either. I’m pretty sure though that being a mom has caused her to see relationships in a different light. She now feels that most aspects of relationships – not just ours – are trivial and silly. She dismisses our past romantic life the way a teenager cringes when remembering they watched Sesame Street.

 

On the other hand, I love my wife. Apart from our relationship I think she’s beautiful, brilliant, and a great mom to our kids. I keep fit and active, have a great relationship with my kids, and have outside interests. I often stick up for her and her needs. I’ve been our family’s sole income and have great benefits. She has said she thinks I’m a great dad and provider.

 

Even still, I assumed all the blame. It’s pretty much accepted that if your partner no longer loves you, it’s mostly your fault somehow. So over the last year I’ve focused on improving myself and my role in our relationship, with the help of my MC. I feel it’s been worth it and I've made changes to my life and the way I approach relationships that are for the better. But even after all this I’m still in the same situation and little has changed. My MC is certain that it hasn't been me all along, and that my wife would feel this way with whoever she married, partly due to unresolved issues from an abusive childhood. The hardest part is that most of this is only directed at me. She is rarely that way with our kids, friends or family. It’s hard not to take it personally when we leave a gathering where she's in a great mood and then unexpectedly turns cold and angry toward me once we’re alone.

 

But the last year has been brutally hard. There are some things that my wife has said and done, especially this past year, that I may never get over.

 

The worst is that she started erasing most of our past romantic relationship together. For the last few years she would glaze over and change the subject if I mentioned anything we did in the past as a couple. Within the last year she started denying that we did certain things together, or that she ever felt romantic toward me. I started to feel like maybe I was going crazy. My memories are real and important to me and now she was denying that they actually happened. A huge part of my life felt suddenly erased. I often felt dizzy and sick to my stomach.

 

Then one day I was going through old boxes and I came across many cards I saved from earlier in our relationship. For many years she wrote notes in cards that proved how she felt about me and our relationship. When I showed her she was shocked. She couldn't believe that she wrote them and seemed depressed by it. She told me that she’s different now and has no connection to that person anymore.

 

This left me very depressed for quite a while. I went through a really bad period and I've been seeing a psychologist for the last year to help deal with it. Both my MC and therapist feel that I need to separate from my wife to get my mental health and life back together. Besides all the things above, my therapist is concerned that my wife is borderline (BPD). She shuns me and puts me down when I’m happy, then turns super sweet and nice once I’m miserable. With help I've gotten better at handling it, but it still sucks the life and happiness out of me.

 

I've shared with her many of the things my MC and therapist have said and advised. She just listened as usual and says very little. I said I don’t feel our relationship is anything more than coparents. She didn't argue with that. We discussed separating and divorce. She feels it’s unnecessary since she feels there’s nothing wrong. She thinks it would be selfish of me. She wouldn’t want to put the kids through it either.

 

And that’s the most difficult part. I don't think I can separate from my wife without without screwing up the lives of my kids. I love them too much to hurt them. My wife is a stay at home mom and brings in no income and I bring in barely enough to pay our current bills. Our house payment is already one of the lowest. There is no way I can afford to pay for any home in the current area and pay for a place for me as well. That means we’d have to move to a less expensive areas, and that would be devastating. My middle daughter had emotional issues but now has a great group of close friends and support. My oldest daughter is finally excelling in school and has grown up with a friend who is practically another sister. It wouldn’t be fair to disrupt their lives that way just to fix mine. So even if I threaten to leave if she doesn’t agree to therapy, I can’t follow through and she knows it.

 

All of this leaves me feeling trapped. I know I have to stay in it for the kids. But I’m deeply romantic, affectionate and giving by nature. Nothing has ever mattered more to me, and during the first 10 years with my wife we shared that. Now it feels like a prison sentence.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Since your relationship is dead, you should get a divorce, unless you are not able to due to religious reasons. Which I think are terrible if they are sentencing a person to a life of misery.

[GorillaTheater]

Tough deal. I agree with your therapists that separation may be in your best interests, but I understand the financial angle. I will say this: given a choice between your emotional and mental well-being, and your finances, opt for the former every time.

 

How old are the kids?

[Mr. Lucky]

The worst is that she started erasing most of our past romantic relationship together. For the last few years she would glaze over and change the subject if I mentioned anything we did in the past as a couple. Within the last year she started denying that we did certain things together, or that she ever felt romantic toward me. I started to feel like maybe I was going crazy. My memories are real and important to me and now she was denying that they actually happened. A huge part of my life felt suddenly erased. I often felt dizzy and sick to my stomach.

 

Then one day I was going through old boxes and I came across many cards I saved from earlier in our relationship. For many years she wrote notes in cards that proved how she felt about me and our relationship. When I showed her she was shocked. She couldn't believe that she wrote them and seemed depressed by it. She told me that she’s different now and has no connection to that person anymore.

 

Is it possible your wife is depressed? Other mental illness? Is she a survivor of trauma or abuse? Something very much not right...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

Besides all the things above, my therapist is concerned that my wife is borderline (BPD). She shuns me and puts me down when I’m happy, then turns super sweet and nice once I’m miserable. With help I've gotten better at handling it, but it still sucks the life and happiness out of me.

 

Sorry, skipped over this. Has she seen a mental health professional? If you told her it was a condition of your staying, would she comply?

 

Mr. Lucky

[mrldii]

I agree with Mr. Lucky's (2nd) post. No one deserves to be in a loveless, dispassionate marriage "just for the kids", no matter how happy/content their partner pretends to be/is.

 

You mentioned she had some childhood trauma; this may, very well, be the catalyst for her change in behavior/attitude over the years.

 

Tell your individual counselor you want joint marriage counseling sessions to work on your marriage; it's entirely possible the counselor will also suggest individual sessions for your wife at some point, too.

 

Make it a condition of staying married; she either goes to the MC sessions or you're checking out of the relationship too.

 

 

Best of luck to you, OP...

[SoMuchMore]

Tough deal. I agree with your therapists that separation may be in your best interests, but I understand the financial angle. I will say this: given a choice between your emotional and mental well-being, and your finances, opt for the former every time.

 

How old are the kids?

 

Thanks for the advice My kids are 7, 12 and 15. Their happiness is very important to me, which is why I have so much concern. If I didn't have children I would have already left for my own sake. I'd take broke and happy over rich and miserable any day, but it's not just about me. Our family, as a whole, is doing okay.

[SoMuchMore]

Sorry, skipped over this. Has she seen a mental health professional? If you told her it was a condition of your staying, would she comply?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I agree with Mr. Lucky's (2nd) post. No one deserves to be in a loveless, dispassionate marriage "just for the kids", no matter how happy/content their partner pretends to be/is.

 

You mentioned she had some childhood trauma; this may, very well, be the catalyst for her change in behavior/attitude over the years.

 

Tell your individual counselor you want joint marriage counseling sessions to work on your marriage; it's entirely possible the counselor will also suggest individual sessions for your wife at some point, too.

 

Make it a condition of staying married; she either goes to the MC sessions or you're checking out of the relationship too.

 

 

Best of luck to you, OP...

 

Thanks to both of you for your viewpoints and thoughts.

 

I agree with what you're saying. I'm not concerned as much about the effect of a separation or divorce on the kids – it's the fact that there is no way to afford a place for me to separate to. We already live very frugally and barely meet our bills. It would require either my wife working or us selling the house – we're both on the mortgage – and moving to an area that has more affordable housing. My wife is going to school full time and won't graduate for 2 more years. No matter how I worded it I know she'd hear "I need you to help sell the house or quit your schooling and get a job so that I can afford to leave you."

 

The only thing I can think of is that I do the opposite by filing for divorce without separating first. That would create a different set of ugly issues to be worked out but at least I could use it as the basis for demanding counseling.

[oldshirt]

Thanks to both of you for your viewpoints and thoughts.

 

I agree with what you're saying. I'm not concerned as much about the effect of a separation or divorce on the kids – it's the fact that there is no way to afford a place for me to separate to. We already live very frugally and barely meet our bills. It would require either my wife working or us selling the house – we're both on the mortgage – and moving to an area that has more affordable housing. My wife is going to school full time and won't graduate for 2 more years. No matter how I worded it I know she'd hear "I need you to help sell the house or quit your schooling and get a job so that I can afford to leave you."

 

The only thing I can think of is that I do the opposite by filing for divorce without separating first. That would create a different set of ugly issues to be worked out but at least I could use it as the basis for demanding counseling.

 

 

 

I mentioned this is your other thread as well, but these are the issues you need to start working with an attorney now.

 

 

Find a good divorce attorney and start working with him/her in secret and start working on a very thorough divorce plan.

 

 

You've been suffering for years already so don't rush into anything. Develop a plan that will most benefit your own well being.

 

 

You are making quite a few assumptions about the kids and about what you can and what you cannot afford. Stop assuming and start working with an attorney and find out the facts and start working on things so that it can be done.

 

 

At the moment you are just making excuses not to do what you know has to be done. Toss the assumptions and the excuses into the trash and start working on the nuts and bolts with an attorney and an accountant and get a solid plan in place before you make any definitive moves.

[Downtown]

My therapist is concerned that my wife is borderline (BPD).... I started to feel like maybe I was going crazy.

SMM, if your therapist is correct about your W having strong BPD traits, your feeling like you are "going crazy" is not unexpected. On the contrary, it is very common among the abused spouses of BPDers.

 

Of the 157 disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one most notorious for making a large share of the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. This is why therapists see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- and help you decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend money on seeking additional professional guidance. Take care, SMM.

[loveboid]

Your wife is in school. That's good because in the court's eyes she can get a job. It is expected for moms to go back to work if they divorce these days.

 

Depending on the length of your marriage and your state's laws, you could negotiate for durational alimony--it may be called something else in your area. Essentially she submits an education or job training plan to the judge to get herself back into the workforce. You provide alimony during this time and alimony stops at the end of the plan.

 

As far as keeping the house and your kids in their school district with their friends...if you keep the house the kids could list the house as primary home address and stay at their school. Or your wife could keep the house, get her degree, get a job, have 50/50 custody. One of you keeps the house and the other gets a more affordable place to offset your wife's education costs.

[Popsicle]

I am just dumbfounded by people like your wife, both men and women. I would pay money to understand them.

[Popsicle]

Your post made me cry.

[oldshirt]

I am just dumbfounded by people like your wife, both men and women. I would pay money to understand them.

 

Don't spend time, energy and money to understand them, that is for shrinks and researchers.

 

Spend your time, energy and money getting away from them.

[SoMuchMore]

SMM, if your therapist is correct about your W having strong BPD traits, your feeling like you are "going crazy" is not unexpected. On the contrary, it is very common among the abused spouses of BPDers.

 

Of the 157 disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one most notorious for making a large share of the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. This is why therapists see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- and help you decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend money on seeking additional professional guidance. Take care, SMM.

 

My therapist is concerned my wife may be borderline, but she hasn't met my wife either. She just wants me to be aware of the signs and adjust my own reactions and behavior. From the list you gave in the other thread – thank you for doing that – my wife has only mildly matches some of those. After reading that I'm not so sure if she actually is.

 

The predominate behavior is a cycle of mild emotional abuse. Its starts with her turning negative toward me out of nowhere. The common cause is that I'm in a good mood and loving toward her. Over a series of days or weeks she'll get worse, belittling everything I say and being confrontational. She'll constantly say and do things that are obviously passive aggressive. I try to keep my spirits up and positive but it slowly wears me down. At some point she always crosses the line and I completely shut down.

 

This is when she turns on the charm 200% and is a completely different person toward me. She becomes so loving and engaging that it's hard for me to resist. Once I do, though, by showing any positive emotion toward her, she immediately resets to being neutral for a number of days and then the cycle starts over. She has done this for years, and no, it doesn't coincide with her monthly.

 

I've just gone through one of these and last night she crossed the line and said something completely inappropriate at dinner with the kids. I tried talking to her afterward but she continued to verbally attack me, so I left the house for an hour and then refused to talk for the rest of the evening. Today she is the sweetest, most charming and loving person on the planet. She rarely contacts me or wants my opinion, but today I've already received texts and a phone call asking for my advice and full of "I love you's".

[SoMuchMore]

I am just dumbfounded by people like your wife, both men and women. I would pay money to understand them.

 

Well, I won't ask for any money, but I can try to give my perspective

 

I think it's equally concerning why men like me enable women like my wife. We are part of the problem too. I believed I deserved how I was treated. I always assumed the blame and tried to fix me. Therapy has helped turned all that around. Even today the harder I try the worse it can get. But going alpha doesn't work either and just sparks her own alpha. I don't know if there is any right way to deal with it.

 

Since this is anonymous, it should be safe to give some of her details... When my wife was young, maybe 9-11, she endured sexual abuse from her dad who made her perform sex acts on him and did many things to her. Her mom would leave her alone with him even after she cried, screamed and begged her mom to take her with her. On top of that her mom was known as a slut who slept with several of the men on her block. Her parents were friendly, social, middle-class, church-going, well-liked people. If that doesn't scare any parent I don't know what would.

 

I think that is what makes all of this even harder. It's not black-and-white. Thinking about what that young girl went through breaks my heart. Somewhere inside she suffers but she won't admit it or talk about it. She refuses to seek therapy because she says nothing is wrong. I've tried every soft and firm approach but I can't make her do what she so vehemently opposes.

[SoMuchMore]

Well, I won't ask for any money, but I can try to give my perspective

 

I think it's equally concerning why men like me enable women like my wife. We are part of the problem too. I believed I deserved how I was treated. I always assumed the blame and tried to fix me. Therapy has helped turned all that around. Even today the harder I try the worse it can get. But going alpha doesn't work either and just sparks her own alpha. I don't know if there is any right way to deal with it.

 

Since this is anonymous, it should be safe to give some of her details... When my wife was young, maybe 9-11, she endured sexual abuse from her dad who made her perform sex acts on him and did many things to her. Her mom would leave her alone with him even after she cried, screamed and begged her mom to take her with her. On top of that her mom was known as a slut who slept with several of the men on her block. Her parents were friendly, social, middle-class, church-going, well-liked people. If that doesn't scare any parent I don't know what would.

 

I think that is what makes all of this even harder. It's not black-and-white. Thinking about what that young girl went through breaks my heart. Somewhere inside she suffers but she won't admit it or talk about it. She refuses to seek therapy because she says nothing is wrong. I've tried every soft and firm approach but I can't make her do what she so vehemently opposes.

 

Part 2

 

Imagine if every time your partner approached you in a loving and affectionate way a fear and loathing came bubbling up from deep in your mind. It's not conscious or rational and you can't shake the feeling no matter how much you know it makes no logical sense. If you deny and repress these feelings they will take over your decisions and emotions. When someone tries to counter them, or make you face them, you become even more defensive and angry. But once a person is no longer a threat, in this case just by not being close and loving, you come out of your dark cloud. You can then see that the person loves you, and now your emotions are replaced by the fear of that person leaving you. You do everything you can to make them stay but once they turn loving again your dark cloud returns.

[oldshirt]

Well, I won't ask for any money, but I can try to give my perspective

 

I think it's equally concerning why men like me enable women like my wife. We are part of the problem too. I believed I deserved how I was treated. I always assumed the blame and tried to fix me. Therapy has helped turned all that around. Even today the harder I try the worse it can get. But going alpha doesn't work either and just sparks her own alpha. I don't know if there is any right way to deal with it.

 

Since this is anonymous, it should be safe to give some of her details... When my wife was young, maybe 9-11, she endured sexual abuse from her dad who made her perform sex acts on him and did many things to her. Her mom would leave her alone with him even after she cried, screamed and begged her mom to take her with her. On top of that her mom was known as a slut who slept with several of the men on her block. Her parents were friendly, social, middle-class, church-going, well-liked people. If that doesn't scare any parent I don't know what would.

 

I think that is what makes all of this even harder. It's not black-and-white. Thinking about what that young girl went through breaks my heart. Somewhere inside she suffers but she won't admit it or talk about it. She refuses to seek therapy because she says nothing is wrong. I've tried every soft and firm approach but I can't make her do what she so vehemently opposes.

 

It is black and white. Your wife is abusive and you are codependent. What you describe above is textbook emotional abuse right down to the swinging back and forth between abusive and then loving and then the buildup going back to further outbursts.

 

What she went through as a child in no way excuses her behavior now or makes it any less abusive and unacceptable. There is no reason on God's Green Earth why you should accept mistreatment today because she was mistreated as a child 30 years ago....absolutely none.

 

She may have been a helpless victim at that time, but you are not. You are a capable adult that can advocate for your own well being. There is no reason for you to tolerate and accept this kind of behavior. Her behavior is inexcusable and unacceptable even if she was a childhood abuse victim. She may have been mistreated but she is still obligated to treat her husband with dignity and respect as an adult wife and mother. She is also obligated to seek appropriate treatment for her issues if her issues are negatively impacting her family and their wellbeing.

 

And you are obligated to protect your children from growing up in an abusive and dysfunctional and toxic environment.

 

They will survive divorce intact. They will survive changing schools if they have to (which I'm still not buying that they will have to change schools, but assuming that's true, they'll get over it) but what will cause them harm is seeing their psycho mother abusing and demoralizing and emasculating their father day in and day out.

 

You are teaching your son(s) to be mistreated, unloved, manipulated and henpecked by psycho Bitches and you are teaching your daughter(s) to be nasty, abusive, manipulating crackpots.

 

A divorce and a two-household family is not the ideal, but it's better than a toxic and abusive two-parent household.

[loveboid]

She may have PTSD which is still no excuse for abuse. Sex may trigger flashbacks for her where she remembers her father so vividly she gets you confused with him.

 

The latest research by expert Bessel van der Kolk points to body work as helpful therapy: yoga, exercise, massage, acupuncture.

 

Talk therapy doesn't work and sometimes makes it worse because it brings up and reinforces painful memory pathways. Sedatives make it worse because they interrupt deep sleep and she cannot overwrite negative memories with neutral ones.

 

There is a particular drug--propranynol or something--in trials that dampen down her automatic nerve responses enough for her to calmly think and talk of her experiences without messing up her memory consolidation in sleep. This helps emotionally overrwrite her memories with more calm feelings.

 

PTSD is starting to get categorized now as a physical injury. Nerves get extra sensitive. Stellate Ganglion Block is another promising therapy that allows nerves to calm down with dramatic results for people with bad PTSD.

 

I'm sorry she went through that.

[starglider]

You do deserve SoMuchMore,

 

Have you considered going to CODA meetings? (Codependents Anonymous). It can help you set some healthier boundaries and to avoid the caretaking tendencies that are making you feel trapped in life. Ultimately, you can't rescue her. I can tell you it has helped me a great deal to detach with compassion in a way that is ultimately healthier for me, for my spouse, and I think it is modeling a better approach for our child.

 

You can be a responsible father still. But you shouldn't feel trapped in your life. Better things are ahead if you have courage. Glad you are doing such good work in (solo) MC and IC.

[Downtown]

She shuns me and puts me down when I’m happy, then turns super sweet and nice once I’m miserable.

SMM, you're describing the cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back that is a hallmark of BPDers (i.e., those having strong BPD traits). The reason is that a BPDer typically has two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Sadly, these two fears lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from one of her fears, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other.

 

Hence, as you draw close to her to reassure her that you never will abandon her, you will start triggering her great fear of engulfment -- i.e., a suffocating feeling that she is being dominated and taken over by your strong personality. As you said above, it is as though "every time your partner approached you in a loving and affectionate way a fear and loathing came bubbling up from deep in your mind." To get breathing room, the BPDer will then create an argument -- over nothing at all -- to push you away.

 

Then, after you've backed off to give her space, her abandonment fear kicks in, at which point she will try hard to suck you back into the relationship by acting very sweet and loving. As you said, "once a person is no longer a threat, in this case just by not being close and loving, you come out of your dark cloud. You can then see that the person loves you, and now your emotions are replaced by the fear of that person leaving you."

 

In this way, BPDer relationships are characterized by a recurrent cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back. Sadly, with BPDers there is no midpoints position (between not-too-close and not-too-far) where you can safely stand and avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I wasted 15 years looking for the Goldilocks position -- only to find that it does not exist.

 

The predominate behavior is a cycle of mild emotional abuse.... The common cause is that I'm in a good mood and loving toward her.

With BPDers, the very WORST fights typically are started immediately after (or during) the very BEST of times, e.g., right after an intimate evening, a great weekend spent together, or in the middle of an expensive vacation. This occurs because, although BPDers usually crave intimacy like nearly everyone else, they cannot tolerate intimacy very long. Because they have a weak sense of who they are, they quickly start to feel like they are losing themselves into your strong personality during intimacy. That is, they feel like you are controlling and suffocating them and like their weak ego is evaporating, destroying the little bit of identity that they do have.

 

Over a series of days or weeks she'll get worse, belittling everything I say and being confrontational. She'll constantly say and do things that are obviously passive aggressive.

The vast majority of BPDers "act out" when they are angry. They exhibit temper tantrums and rages that typically last five hours but can last a day or two. A small share of BPDers, however, usually exhibit their anger by "acting in," i.e., turning the anger inward. These BPDers are usually referred to as the "quiet BPDers" or "waif borderlines." When angry, they typically punish their partners in an indirect manner, relying heavily on passive aggressive remarks, sulking, and icy cold withdrawal. And, not surprisingly, some BPDers exhibit both the "quiet" and "loud" behaviors when angry. If you're interested in reading about these quiet BPDers, I suggest you look at A.J. Mahari's description of Quiet Borderlines.

 

This is when she turns on the charm 200% and is a completely different person toward me. She becomes so loving and engaging that it's hard for me to resist.

A common complaint heard from the spouses of BPDers is that they feel like they are living with someone who is half-way to having a multiple-personality disorder. These abused spouses are referring to the rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you). This occurs in BPDers because they are too emotionally immature to tolerate strong mixed feelings. Hence, the subconscious mind protects the BPDer's weak ego by putting the conflicting feeling completely out of reach of the conscious mind. In this way, a BPDer only has to deal with one set of strong feelings at a time.

 

The result is that, when a BPDer is in touch with her loving feelings toward you, she will "split you white" -- i.e., perceive you to be "all good" and God's gift to women. Conversely, when she is in touch with her negative feelings, she will "split you black" and start devaluing you. This behavior -- called "black-white thinking" -- also likely would be evident in a BPDer's frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "you ALWAYS..." and "you NEVER...."

 

When my wife was young, maybe 9-11, she endured sexual abuse from her dad who made her perform sex acts on him and did many things to her. Her mom would leave her alone with him even after she cried

Her history of sexual abuse -- by her own father, no less -- is a serious red flag for BPD. I am speaking based on my 15 years of experience with my BPDer exW, who was sexually abused by her father starting about age 7 or 8. Significantly, childhood sexual abuse is strongly associated with BPD. Granted, most abused children do NOT develop BPD. Such abuse, however, greatly raises their risk for developing it -- and this is particularly true when the abuse is sexual and is done by a parent. See BPD and Childhood Sexual Abuse and the study, Child Sex Abuse and BPD. Also see Sexual Abuse and Psychiatric Disorders and the study, Psychological Consequences of Sexual Abuse.

 

The hardest part is that most of this is only directed at me. She is rarely that way with our kids, friends or family.

The vast majority of BPDers are "high functioning," which means they generally get along fine with business associates, casual friends, and complete strangers. The reason is that NONE of those people pose a threat to the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that could be abandoned and no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment. A spouse, in contrast, poses BOTH of those threats and thus will trigger the two fears.

 

This is why it is common to see a BPDer being considerate and kind to strangers or clients all day long -- and then go home at night to verbally abuse the very person who loves her. And this is why BPDers typically have no long-term close friends unless those friends live a long distance away. Once a casual friend makes the mistake of drawing close, the BPDer will push him away when the fears start being triggered.

 

As to the young children, my experience is that high functioning BPDers can do very well with their little kids. There is no threat to the BPDer's engulfment fear because young children generally are so compliant that they never make the BPDer parent feel controlled and engulfed by a strong personality. Moreover, there is no threat of abandonment because the young children are so fully reliant on the parent. All of that is likely to change, however, when the children reach adolescence and start rebelling and showing a mind of their own.

 

We discussed separating and divorce. She feels it’s unnecessary since she feels there’s nothing wrong.

Because a BPDer has such a weak sense of self, she sorely needs to be with someone who provides a strong sense of identity. Yet, when you provide exactly that thing she so desperately needs, she will resent you for controlling her (i.e., the engulfment feeling) and failing to make her happy. The irony, then, is that a BPDer will berate and devalue you but -- as soon as she senses you are thinking about leaving her -- she will start pulling you back. This classic BPDer behavior is why the #2 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!

 

She couldn't believe that she wrote them and seemed depressed by it. She told me that she’s different now and has no connection to that person anymore.

Because a BPDer is emotionally unstable and has a weak sense of self, it is common for a BPDer to feel like she has become a "new person" whose values have greatly changed. It also is common for a BPDer to "rewrite history" in her own mind. That is, a BPDer can do something one day and then, a week later, will seriously claim she never did it or never intended to do it. With BPDers, this rewriting of history usually is NOT done deliberately. On the contrary, a BPDer's perception of events is distorted by her intense feelings and, to her, those feelings are so intense that she is convinced they MUST be true. This is why BPDers typically believe most of the outrageous allegations and false recollections coming out of their mouths. And when they are saying the exact opposite a month later, they likely will be sincerely convinced that this new absurdity is true also.

 

From the list you gave in the other thread – thank you for doing that – my wife has only mildly matches some of those. After reading that I'm not so sure if she actually is.

Perhaps you are correct about her NOT having many BPD traits at a strong level, SMM. Certainly, you are in the best position to know what traits she does or does not exhibit. Before you jump to that conclusion, however, I suggest you read my more detailed description of those warning signs at my posts in Rebel's Thread. And, because the red flags for "quiet BPDers" are more passive aggressive than what is described in my list, I suggest you also take a look at the Mahari description at the link I provided above.

[SoMuchMore]

SMM, you're describing the cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back that is a hallmark of BPDers (i.e., those having strong BPD traits). The reason is that a BPDer typically has two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Sadly, these two fears lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from one of her fears, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other.

 

You are incredible, Downtown. Thank you for putting so much thought and time into this. You showed how thing connect in ways that they haven't before and the "quiet BPD" is the missing link. When I read the page you linked to this really hit home:

 

The stone-cold silence of the quite acting in borderline is often also used whenever a non borderline really wants and needs to talk, set boundaries, get some input about what is really going on in a relationship from the borderline. This silence is an abdication of personal responsibility.

 

That behavior alone has brought me to my emotional knees so many times. She never talks to me about her feelings or our relationship. I have spilled my heart out then asked her how she feels, and she just sits there in silence, cold as ice, her mind locked and guarded by a stare that seems to burn a hole through me. It rarely fits the mood of the conversation and makes me feel crazy and alone. Now it makes sense.

 

Another thing that helps is knowing how my personality fits in with the BPD. I'm usually strong of mind and assertive, in a positive way, at work and with my friends. But my wife has a way of reducing my ego down to nothing and I feel inept and helpless. It's like some sort of distorted-reality field. It sounds like the she has refined this skill, probably helped by her high intelligence.

 

All of that is likely to change, however, when the children reach adolescence and start rebelling and showing a mind of their own.

 

I'm glad you mentioned the relationship she'll have with my older kids because I think that has already started. I now realize she uses this same type of power on my 15 year old daughter as well. This will likely be an ongoing concern.

 

And this is why BPDers typically have no long-term close friends unless those friends live a long distance away. Once a casual friend makes the mistake of drawing close, the BPDer will push him away when the fears start being triggered.

 

That is very much true of my wife. In all these years she has had no close friends. She gets along and is social with many people, but she turns down every offer to hang out one-on-one or in small groups.

 

With BPDers, this rewriting of history usually is NOT done deliberately.

 

I've never thought that it was intentional, but I've discussed the effects I've experienced of "gaslighting" with my therapist several times. When some of the most important moments of my life were "removed" because my wife said they weren't true, I had to learn to treat it like she had a form of alzheimer's and keep those memories alive on my own.

 

See BPD and Childhood Sexual Abuse and the study, Child Sex Abuse and BPD. Also see Sexual Abuse and Psychiatric Disorders and the study, Psychological Consequences of Sexual Abuse.

 

Thanks for all the links. I've got lots of reading to do. I'm learning way more than I would ever want about BPD but it's helping me understand what has happened all these years and lift the weight of all the baggage I'm carrying emotionally.

Edited August 19, 2015 by SoMuchMore
Clarifying ambiguous statement that made it sound like my therapist was gaslighting me ;)

[SoMuchMore]

I am speaking based on my 15 years of experience with my BPDer exW.

 

If you don't mind me asking, how did you handle your divorce and how badly did it go? Is there a strategy that you recommend and things to look out for from my wife?

[Downtown]

If you don't mind me asking, how did you handle your divorce and how badly did it go?

SMM, like most excessive caregivers, I never realized what I was dealing with (i.e., BPD) and thus never did walk away. To me, the notion of abandoning a sick loved one was anathema to my way of thinking. Instead of me leaving her, she had me physically removed from my home in handcuffs. That is, while in a rage and trying to destroy the bedroom door I had retreated behind, she called the police and told them I was brutalizing her.

 

Actually, I had only pushed her away from the door to prevent further damage and, on stepping backwards, she fell down. In this State, a simple push is all it takes to get you arrested -- never mind that all this "brutalizing" occurred in one second while our granddaughter and my exW's sister were only 15 feet away (behind the second bedroom's door).

 

In that way, my exW had me put in jail for three days -- giving her plenty of time to obtain a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a D in this State). Because I had the foresight to have insisted on a prenuptial agreement, she was able to walk away with only half of what we had accumulated during the 15-year M. My major loss was the five step children, all of whom stopped speaking to me. My exW had warned me, a couple of times, that she would see to it that I never spoke to them again if I ever left her.

 

Two years after the D, one of these adult step children (the oldest) called me and said she wanted to include me back in her family because I was the only real grand parent that her three kids had. So we have been communicating regularly ever since -- and my older grandson invited me to attend his wedding and be the photographer. Sadly, the two step kids I did the most for (the youngest of the five) have been the most hostile to me. These are the two I had helped pay for college and given cars to.

 

Is there a strategy that you recommend and things to look out for from my wife?

If she really does have strong BPD traits, her greatest fear is abandonment. This means that, during a D, things likely will get really nasty really quick. I therefore suggest the following:

 

As an initial matter, if you agree with your psychologist that your W likely has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT try to persuade her of that. If she really is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

 

Second, for tips on how to establish and enforce strong personal boundaries, I recommend the book Codependent No More and an online psychiatric nurse's blog, which provides 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at Borderline Personality Disorder on the Behavioral Unit - Psychiatric Nursing. If you think you have it bad, remember that those psychiatric nurses have to deal with BPDers for many hours every work day.

 

Third, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily -- the most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Leaving" board and the "Parenting after the Split" board.

 

Fourth, while you are at BPDfamily, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorites are Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering from BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. And, if you want to read a good BPD book targeted to abused spouses, the two best sellers are Stop Walking on Eggshells and I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!

 

Fifth, please don't forget those of us that are here at the LoveShack forum. We want to keep trying to help you as long as you find our suggestions and experiences useful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers. Indeed, your thread has already attracted nearly 600 views.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Downtown

[Popsicle]

 

In that way, my exW had me put in jail for three days -- giving her plenty of time to obtain a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a D in this State).

 

You should be thankful that this happened, because it sounds like you would have never left otherwise (same for your xW leaving you). Sometimes it takes something major like this to finally break up a toxic relationship. And, I hate to say it, but it sounds like the OP isn't ever going to leave his W either.