Aromantic, kids, self-sacrifice, and the borderline...

[Downtown]

Popsicle, yes, being arrested on a bogus charge was one of the best things to ever happen to me. Otherwise, I would never have believed that the woman who periodically adored me would be capable of such a thing. Indeed I was so naive that, after I was released from jail, I still refused to believe she was capable of standing up in court -- in front of my step children -- and testifying under oath that I had brutalized her. Hence, amazingly, I did not file for divorce until the case went to court six months later, at which time I saw her do those things with my own eyes.

[Popsicle]

Popsicle, yes, being arrested on a bogus charge was one of the best things to ever happen to me. Otherwise, I would never have believed that the woman who periodically adored me would be capable of such a thing. Indeed I was so naive that, after I was released from jail, I still refused to believe she was capable of standing up in court -- in front of my step children -- and testifying under oath that I had brutalized her. Hence, amazingly, I did not file for divorce until the case went to court six months later, at which time I saw her do those things with my own eyes.

 

A wise man I used to know once convinced me of how much men love marriage. He said, do you know the part in the wedding vows that say "Until death do us part? Men wrote that part!" Lol!

[SoMuchMore]

A wise man I used to know once convinced me of how much men love marriage. He said, do you know the part in the wedding vows that say "Until death do us part? Men wrote that part!" Lol!

 

Then men must either be insane or masochistic, lol. I'm just trying to figure out which one I am... or both?

[SoMuchMore]

You should be thankful that this happened, because it sounds like you would have never left otherwise (same for your xW leaving you). Sometimes it takes something major like this to finally break up a toxic relationship. And, I hate to say it, but it sounds like the OP isn't ever going to leave his W either.

 

That sounds so depressing for me When I reread my story it sounds so harsh. It's all true, but in reality it feels much more subtle. It's not a heart attack, it's a very slow cancer.Until a dramatic event like Downtown describes, it's hard to know how much is my fault, even when my therapist says otherwise. My wife isn't a demon. Overall she has a wonderful heart and I love her very much still. But I agree with what's been suggested that I'm locked in codependency and need to make major changes, whatever they are.

 

Thanks, Popsicle for your support. After all the responses and prodding, I've made an appointment with a therapist who specializes in BPD so that I can grasp what's going on before I do anything else.

Edited August 19, 2015 by SoMuchMore

[Downtown]

It's hard to know how much is my fault, even when my therapist says otherwise.

SMM, if you are an excessive caregiver like me (i.e., a "codependent"), you likely are so empathetic that you have very low personal boundaries, making it very hard for you to tell where YOUR problems stop and HER problems begin. We caregivers are so focused on helping our loved ones solve problems that we lose sight of the distinction between our own contribution to the toxicity and the W's contributions to toxicity in the marriage. This is why many caregivers find it very helpful -- in trying to identify their own problems -- to first seek a professional opinion on the nature of the spouse's problems. Then, by subtraction, we can get a clearer view of the issues we brought into the marriage.

 

My wife isn't a demon. Overall she has a wonderful heart and I love her very much still.

Likewise, my exW is a wonderful person and has such a warm, outgoing personality that complete strangers immediately like her and feel like they've known her for a long time. Generally, BPDers are not bad people. Their problem is not being bad but, rather, being emotionally unstable. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- had full blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

I've made an appointment with a therapist who specializes in BPD so that I can grasp what's going on before I do anything else.

I applaud your decision to see a BPD expert, all by yourself, to obtain a candid professional opinion. Of course, that expert cannot render a formal diagnosis without seeing your W. What he can do, however, is to tell you -- based on your 25 years of experience with your W -- what it sounds like you are dealing with. If that seems to be a weak basis for rendering an opinion, please keep in mind that -- if your W is a high functioning BPDer -- it may take a psychologist three years to see the dysfunctional behaviors you see all week long.

 

In the unlikely event your W agrees to see her own psychologist, I caution you against relying on anything that professional tells her or you with regard to BPD. That professional is NOT YOUR FRIEND. He is ethically bound to protect the interests of his sick client, not you. It therefore would be just as foolish to rely on HER therapist for candid information during the marriage as it would be to rely on HER attorney for candid advice during the divorce.

 

I mention this because it is well known, both inside and outside the psychiatric profession, that therapists generally are LOATH to tell a high functioning BPDer -- much less tell her spouse -- the name of her disorder. This is why, when BPD is involved, your best chance of obtaining a candid opinion is to see a professional who has never treated or seen your W. If you're interested, I explain why this information is routinely withheld from the client, family, and insurance company in my post at Loath to Diagnose BPD.

[SoMuchMore]

It's been a month and a few things have happened. As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm now seeing a therapist who specializes in personality disorders to learn my options and try to understand my wife. Like Downtown mentioned the word Borderline is avoided, but the lack of exact label doesn't seem to hamper the discussions.

 

The first couple of sessions he focused on things I could do to try to save the relationship. After we discussed details of many of the things I have already done, and many things she's done and said, he's now advising that there is little I can do further. Her personality traits are a classic manifestation of her past abuse and would require her to complete extensive therapy. Even then, there would be no guarantee that the relationship would improve. So, I can either accept the way she is and how things are between us, or move on.

 

I've come to terms with it. I've struggled leaving the person I promised and wanted to love forever, but I feel if I stayed now I'd risk losing what's left of my self respect. So I've met with a divorce attorney. I'm planning to tell my wife on Monday while the kids are at school. I know it's for the best, and I appreciate all the advice given here. It's really helped get my head together. I can't sugar coat it though – it's the hardest thing I've ever had to do, by far.

[bluefeather]

Sorry, SoMuchMore

 

Hard to say much else. I don't know what I can say to contribute, but your story is very much in my thoughts...

 

Fifth, please don't forget those of us that are here at the LoveShack forum. We want to keep trying to help you as long as you find our suggestions and experiences useful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.

 

He speaks the truth.

[Mr. Lucky]

I'm planning to tell my wife on Monday while the kids are at school. I know it's for the best, and I appreciate all the advice given here. It's really helped get my head together. I can't sugar coat it though – it's the hardest thing I've ever had to do, by far.

 

Lots of ups and downs ahead. Keep posting, there's a big knowledge base here...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Downtown]

I feel if I stayed now I'd risk losing what's left of my self respect. So I've met with a divorce attorney.

SMM, thanks so much for returning to give us an update. If your W has strong BPD traits, you essentially are walking away from a parent/child relationship, not a husband/wife marriage. As I noted earlier, the D likely will get nasty very quickly because a BPDer's greatest fear is abandonment. I therefore suggest you read Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It is written by Randi Kreger, author of the best selling BPD booktargeted to abused partners.

[Downtown]

SMM, please give us another update if you have time. Am interested in hearing how the lawyer and therapist have worked out.

[SoMuchMore]

SMM, please give us another update if you have time. Am interested in hearing how the lawyer and therapist have worked out.

 

Thanks, Downtown. Many things have happened since I last posted in September, which include a funeral and a kid in the hospital. It’s finally reached a point that I can respond.

 

Back in September I did just as I said, and had the tough divorce conversation with my wife. I used tips about staying supportive and letting her talk out how she felt. She showed few emotions and was often quiet, but I could tell it was affecting her. She was very concerned the kids, the finances, and her schooling. Not a word came up about our relationship. I asked her to consider mediation for the divorce and told her I would be fair. I advised her to meet with a lawyer first and gave her a few weeks to sort it out before I’d file.

 

Her concerns about our kids and finances are similar to what I've already posted. My strong feelings of guilt bubbled up again so I talked with my therapist. We both agreed that I would offer her the option of marriage counseling to hold off divorce. She already refused numerous times in the past, but maybe she'd reconsider knowing the alternative. After thinking about it for a few days she angrily told me she once again that she would not attend counseling. We discussed it and she was adamant. I told her I would continue with the divorce.

 

A few days later she asked me to explain the whole divorce process to her. After sharing what I knew I said it was bizarre that she would rather go through all of it rather than at least trying counseling. She said she would get her own therapist to figure out what *she* wants out of the relationship and so she could tell me what *her* therapist says, like I do to her. I said, "good! please do!” and that I’d love to know whatever comes up. I reminded her how many times I’ve asked her to come with me to counseling to tell her side of the story.

 

A couple weeks later a close family member died unexpectedly, on her side of the family. Everything about the divorce was put on hold. I helped and supported my wife and her mom as much as I could. It’s been a very rough time for me and my kids too.

 

After the funeral one of her family members, who I love and respect, pulled me aside, crying, and told me I needed to "work it out". I said I have been trying for over a year but I can't do it alone. This family member was surprised because my wife told this person we were already attending MC, which obviously was a lie. Later I asked my wife if the family member talked to her as well, and if she asked her to "work it out" too. She said "yep". I asked her if that was what she wanted – did she want to work it out? She said she thought we were already working it out. That was confusing so I asked her what she meant by that, since I wasn't aware of anything different. She didn't say anything.

 

My wife confronted me a few days later. Even though I hadn’t brought up the divorce since the death, she was angry and told me how selfish I was for wanting a divorce and disrupting her life. She said she was was dealing with so many important things right now, which I understood. I told her I had already put off the divorce and that she didn’t need to do anything right now. I reminded her about her refusal to go to counseling. She then said in a straight face that she never refused to go to counseling. It turns out that she had seen a therapist just once, but she wouldn’t discuss anything about it. She said she got a referral for an MC and that she’d make an appointment.

 

Shortly after that one of my kids became sick with a serious condition and spent a week in the hospital. It had only been 2 weeks since the funeral which made it even tougher for everyone emotionally. The good news is it looks like there will be a full recovery.

 

Now it’s been a few weeks and things have settled down a bit. Nothing has happened regarding the MC since. She hasn’t set up an appointment. I brought it up once but have dropped it since. I’ve been left in a confused state about it all. I had already decided to file for divorce, and that decision took an incredible amount of time and determination. I don’t want to go back to the hell of indecision. But now that my wife has finally offered at least the possibility of MC, don’t I owe my family, kids and relationship at least one last attempt to work it out?

 

So in the mean time I’ve spent the last couple of months working with my therapist to understand the whole situation better. As I mentioned previously, my therapist has experience working with personality disorders. I’ve learned many things that I’ll share here for anyone that’s interested.

 

I’ve never felt that the term borderline fit my wife and it turns out that the traits of narcissism match more closely. I’m still reluctant to use that label, but it somewhat describes her personality and helps me understand better. What makes it more confusing is that the borderline (BPD) and narcissistic (NPD) disorders have spectrums of severity, and can overlap with each other. My take-away is to just try understanding the person I’ve been with for all these years and learn what my options are.

 

I’ve learned the important traits of narcissism are not about vanity like is portrayed in the media. My wife is not “vain” in that sense. It’s more about her lack of emotional empathy and inability to comprehend the concept of classic love. I’ve read "the 5 love languages" book before and none of them seem to fit her. Now I realize that her only concept of love is security. She feels loved when I help provide a life that is financially secure, stable and relatively free of emotion. This helps explain so many things in our past. She has a limited understanding of emotions and affection and sees most of it as frivolous and unnecessary.

 

She is incredibly smart and self sufficient. She only trusts her own knowledge and sees no need to compromise and won’t consider things she feels are settled. She sees others as weak if they are hurt or offended by her harsh criticism no matter how belittling. To her she is just sharing her valuable insights. If she is challenged in any way against what she is certain she knows, she is likely to turn against that person. She even sees requests to compromise as a challenge, regardless of how lovingly asked. Since she doesn’t empathize or understand love in that sense, a request for compromise is purely a request to change, and that defies her own logic. If it's related to emotions it will never even be considered.

 

When she appears loving it’s often a way she’s learned to get positive reinforcement from others, rather than an actual expression of love. It’s more of a means to an end. She can connect with people very well because she understands how their minds work. She can be incredibly charming, which is what has made it harder to understand, but helps explain even more things in our past.

 

I believe somewhere deep within her there is true love and emotion. I’ve seen rare glimpses of it bubble up. But her mental walls are thick and strong. She rages against anyone that tries to tap into her feelings or make her think about them. It would likely take many sessions and possibly years to “fix”, with dismal odds. Should I try to fix someone who doesn’t feel that *they* are “broken”, rather that everyone else is? She says she’s happy with her life and how things are.

 

Finally, when it comes to counseling, there are many resources that say attending MC with a partner who has strong NPD traits is not only rarely effective, but can further damage the “healthy” partner emotionally. I’ve read many detailed accounts and many sound horrible. My therapist no longer recommends MC. We had only a few sessions when first recommending it and many more details have emerged.

 

I think I already know that MC is not an option. It comes down to whether I can live with my wife and the relationship the way it is, expecting it will never change the way I’d like it to. I’ve learned many new insights and coping methods to consider. I won’t make a decision until at least until after the holidays.

[NewLeaf512]

Thanks for the advice My kids are 7, 12 and 15. Their happiness is very important to me, which is why I have so much concern. If I didn't have children I would have already left for my own sake. I'd take broke and happy over rich and miserable any day, but it's not just about me. Our family, as a whole, is doing okay.

 

This may be a silly question but do children of this age requireme a stay at home mother? I don't know at what age children start school, so apologies if the youngest is still at home. If they are all in school then I believe your W should get a part time job. At the very least this will give some financial head room to the family finances.

[NewLeaf512]

Thanks, Downtown. Many things have happened since I last posted in September, which include a funeral and a kid in the hospital. It’s finally reached a point that I can respond.

 

Back in September I did just as I said, and had the tough divorce conversation with my wife. I used tips about staying supportive and letting her talk out how she felt. She showed few emotions and was often quiet, but I could tell it was affecting her. She was very concerned the kids, the finances, and her schooling. Not a word came up about our relationship. I asked her to consider mediation for the divorce and told her I would be fair. I advised her to meet with a lawyer first and gave her a few weeks to sort it out before I’d file.

 

Her concerns about our kids and finances are similar to what I've already posted. My strong feelings of guilt bubbled up again so I talked with my therapist. We both agreed that I would offer her the option of marriage counseling to hold off divorce. She already refused numerous times in the past, but maybe she'd reconsider knowing the alternative. After thinking about it for a few days she angrily told me she once again that she would not attend counseling. We discussed it and she was adamant. I told her I would continue with the divorce.

 

A few days later she asked me to explain the whole divorce process to her. After sharing what I knew I said it was bizarre that she would rather go through all of it rather than at least trying counseling. She said she would get her own therapist to figure out what *she* wants out of the relationship and so she could tell me what *her* therapist says, like I do to her. I said, "good! please do!” and that I’d love to know whatever comes up. I reminded her how many times I’ve asked her to come with me to counseling to tell her side of the story.

 

A couple weeks later a close family member died unexpectedly, on her side of the family. Everything about the divorce was put on hold. I helped and supported my wife and her mom as much as I could. It’s been a very rough time for me and my kids too.

 

After the funeral one of her family members, who I love and respect, pulled me aside, crying, and told me I needed to "work it out". I said I have been trying for over a year but I can't do it alone. This family member was surprised because my wife told this person we were already attending MC, which obviously was a lie. Later I asked my wife if the family member talked to her as well, and if she asked her to "work it out" too. She said "yep". I asked her if that was what she wanted – did she want to work it out? She said she thought we were already working it out. That was confusing so I asked her what she meant by that, since I wasn't aware of anything different. She didn't say anything.

 

My wife confronted me a few days later. Even though I hadn’t brought up the divorce since the death, she was angry and told me how selfish I was for wanting a divorce and disrupting her life. She said she was was dealing with so many important things right now, which I understood. I told her I had already put off the divorce and that she didn’t need to do anything right now. I reminded her about her refusal to go to counseling. She then said in a straight face that she never refused to go to counseling. It turns out that she had seen a therapist just once, but she wouldn’t discuss anything about it. She said she got a referral for an MC and that she’d make an appointment.

 

Shortly after that one of my kids became sick with a serious condition and spent a week in the hospital. It had only been 2 weeks since the funeral which made it even tougher for everyone emotionally. The good news is it looks like there will be a full recovery.

 

Now it’s been a few weeks and things have settled down a bit. Nothing has happened regarding the MC since. She hasn’t set up an appointment. I brought it up once but have dropped it since. I’ve been left in a confused state about it all. I had already decided to file for divorce, and that decision took an incredible amount of time and determination. I don’t want to go back to the hell of indecision. But now that my wife has finally offered at least the possibility of MC, don’t I owe my family, kids and relationship at least one last attempt to work it out?

 

So in the mean time I’ve spent the last couple of months working with my therapist to understand the whole situation better. As I mentioned previously, my therapist has experience working with personality disorders. I’ve learned many things that I’ll share here for anyone that’s interested.

 

I’ve never felt that the term borderline fit my wife and it turns out that the traits of narcissism match more closely. I’m still reluctant to use that label, but it somewhat describes her personality and helps me understand better. What makes it more confusing is that the borderline (BPD) and narcissistic (NPD) disorders have spectrums of severity, and can overlap with each other. My take-away is to just try understanding the person I’ve been with for all these years and learn what my options are.

 

I’ve learned the important traits of narcissism are not about vanity like is portrayed in the media. My wife is not “vain” in that sense. It’s more about her lack of emotional empathy and inability to comprehend the concept of classic love. I’ve read "the 5 love languages" book before and none of them seem to fit her. Now I realize that her only concept of love is security. She feels loved when I help provide a life that is financially secure, stable and relatively free of emotion. This helps explain so many things in our past. She has a limited understanding of emotions and affection and sees most of it as frivolous and unnecessary.

 

She is incredibly smart and self sufficient. She only trusts her own knowledge and sees no need to compromise and won’t consider things she feels are settled. She sees others as weak if they are hurt or offended by her harsh criticism no matter how belittling. To her she is just sharing her valuable insights. If she is challenged in any way against what she is certain she knows, she is likely to turn against that person. She even sees requests to compromise as a challenge, regardless of how lovingly asked. Since she doesn’t empathize or understand love in that sense, a request for compromise is purely a request to change, and that defies her own logic. If it's related to emotions it will never even be considered.

 

When she appears loving it’s often a way she’s learned to get positive reinforcement from others, rather than an actual expression of love. It’s more of a means to an end. She can connect with people very well because she understands how their minds work. She can be incredibly charming, which is what has made it harder to understand, but helps explain even more things in our past.

 

I believe somewhere deep within her there is true love and emotion. I’ve seen rare glimpses of it bubble up. But her mental walls are thick and strong. She rages against anyone that tries to tap into her feelings or make her think about them. It would likely take many sessions and possibly years to “fix”, with dismal odds. Should I try to fix someone who doesn’t feel that *they* are “broken”, rather that everyone else is? She says she’s happy with her life and how things are.

 

Finally, when it comes to counseling, there are many resources that say attending MC with a partner who has strong NPD traits is not only rarely effective, but can further damage the “healthy” partner emotionally. I’ve read many detailed accounts and many sound horrible. My therapist no longer recommends MC. We had only a few sessions when first recommending it and many more details have emerged.

 

I think I already know that MC is not an option. It comes down to whether I can live with my wife and the relationship the way it is, expecting it will never change the way I’d like it to. I’ve learned many new insights and coping methods to consider. I won’t make a decision until at least until after the holidays.

 

I'm interested in hoe MC could damage the healthy partner.

 

For me only one question comes to mind when I read the post quoted here. This is my question to you: if you read your own post aloud, what part of that addresses your happiness now or in the future? From what I can see, none of it. It's "dealing with" "coping with" "handling" "waiting" "living with" "accepting" "trying to fix " "appearing loving ... As a means to an end"

 

You refer to your life as confusing or yourself as confused 6 times in that post. Maybe this can help you:

 

I'm using what you've said.

 

1. My wife belittles and harshly criticises

2. She shows no emotion

2. She rages

3. If others show emotion she says they are weak

4. She turns on people

5. Her concerns are the kids, finances (so she gets enough) and her schooling (not you nor the marriage)

6. She won't be intimate with you

7. Your value is providing her with a home, money and finances

8. You are selfish for disrupting her life (not the marriage. As in 7, your sole purpose is to facilitate her life)

9. She lied to a relative to perpetuate a facade

10. She refuses to go to therapy

11. She refuses to respect your feelings because her life is fine. Your emotions and needs are an annoyance and if you " show no emotion at all"

 

To summarise: you are willing to be an angel investor in a business you aren't a 50% owner of: your marriage. You are willing to accept being treated as an invisible cash machine who is a non participant, non entity in the life of your wife. You are willing to learn to cope with her outrageous behaviour because she might one day go to therapy which you yourself say has an almost certain outcome of failure to make her or the marriage better in any way

 

Why would you do that to yourself? Please think about what you already know. I hope that this post helps. You deserve much much more

[bluefeather]

just go. you have done more than enough and you are allowing more mental exhaustion into your life by continuing to be with her. gtfo and don't look back. forgive me, but that bitch sounds scary.

[Downtown]

SMM, thanks for returning to give us an update. I'm glad to hear that your child has made it out of the hospital and is expected to have a full recovery!

 

I’ve never felt that the term borderline fit my wife and it turns out that the traits of narcissism match more closely. I’m still reluctant to use that label, but it somewhat describes her personality and helps me understand better.

I'm sorry to hear that, SMM. As you know, it is rare for BPDers to have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. With narcissists, however, it is even worse. Although it may be possible for them to improve, I've never heard of it ever occurring.

 

Ironically, it seems to be the narcissists' stability that makes it so much more difficult for them to undergo therapy. Both narcissists and BPDers are unable to see their true selves, i.e., their true identities. They both therefore create a false self identity, which typically is "The Victim" for BPDers and "The Perfect One" for narcissists.

 

Yet, whereas the BPDers KNOW that their false self image is false, the narcissists are so totally out of touch with their true selves that they believe their false self images are really true. The irony in this is that, by being further out of touch with the reality of their true selves, the narcissists seem to gain a stability. In contrast, the BPDers are very unstable because they flip around between a changing series of different self images of what they are at this moment in time. Because they cannot trust themselves being the same from week to week, they are unable to trust others. This, at least, is my understanding, SMM.

 

What makes it more confusing is that the borderline (BPD) and narcissistic (NPD) disorders have spectrums of severity, and can overlap with each other.

You may be confused by the practice, in every field of the medical sciences, of using the term "disorder" to refer to a disease. This is practice is not always followed by the psychiatric profession, which uses the term "personality disorder" to refer to a set of behavioral symptoms -- which are NOT believed to be diseases. On the contrary, they are defined to simply be syndromes, i.e., a set of behavioral traits that typically occur together, thus forming a recognizable pattern.

 

Because there are over a hundred of these behavioral traits (which nearly all adults occasionally exhibit), the psychologists were able to form as many or as few behavioral categories (syndromes called "personality disorders") as they wanted to. With some arbitrariness, they created 10 categories back in 1980. It is now generally recognized, however, that they created too many categories.

 

This became evident because studies show that the vast majority of peoples having one PD also have one or two others as well. This is somewhat embarrassing given that a person has only one personality. The result is that the profession is now in the process of consolidating the 10 PDs into a smaller number of PDs. If the Amer. Psych. Assoc. follows the recommendation of its blue-ribbon panel, it will reduce the number to six PDs (both BPD and NPD will still be retained).

 

I mention all this so as to explain why it is commonplace for a person having one PD to exhibit others as well. Even after the consolidation takes place, it still will occur but most of the unnecessary "overlap" -- as you say -- will be eliminated. It still will be common, however, for BPD and NPD to co-occur. I say this because a large-scale study found that 39% of BPDers also have full-blown NPD (Narcissistic PD). And it found that 37% of narcissists have full-blown BPD. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

It’s more about her lack of emotional empathy and inability to comprehend the concept of classic love.... her only concept of love is security. She feels loved when I help provide a life that is financially secure, stable and relatively free of emotion.

Saying that she cannot comprehend the concept of "classic love" because she perceives love as "security" is a very fancy way of saying she simply doesn't love you. Indeed, if she is a full-blown narcissist as you suspect, she is incapable of loving you (in any way that would be considered "love" by most adults). Rather, you are simply useful to her.

 

Yet, if her predominant behavioral pattern is "quiet BPDer" as you thought last August, she is able to love you -- in the limited way that a four year old is able to love. That love is very real but is so immature that it falls far short of what is required to sustain a mature adult relationship.

 

In deciding whether her predominant pattern of warning signs is NPD or "quiet BPD," I suggest you consider three characteristics:

(a) whether she ever truly loved you

-- whereas a narcissist is unable to love, a BPDer can love very intensely in the limited way that a young child loves;

 

(b) whether she is emotionally stable

-- whereas a narcissist is stable, a BPDer is unstable, which typically is exhibited by rapid flips between adoring you (i.e., truly adoring you, not pretending) and devaluing you -- also is exhibited by having a weak sense of identity, resulting in frequent changes in long-term goals and hobbies; and

© whether she strongly fears abandonment

-- whereas this is not a trait of narcissism, it is one of the nine defining traits for BPD -- and usually will be exhibited as irrational jealousy.

When she appears loving it’s often a way she’s learned to get positive reinforcement from others, rather than an actual expression of love.

Like I observed above, you seem to be describing a woman who doesn't really love you. If she never loved you, you are describing one of the red flags for NPD (or, alternatively, sociopathy).

 

She can connect with people very well because she understands how their minds work.

This is called "cognitive empathy," i.e., the ability to understand what other people are thinking and feeling. That ability makes it easier for narcissists and sociopaths to manipulate other people. Hence, when it is said that they "lack empathy," what is meant is that they lack affective empathy, i.e., the ability to sense and feel what other people are feeling.

 

With BPDers, my experience is that they typically have both affective and cognitive empathy -- but those abilities fly out the window whenever they start splitting a person black. This is why the abused partners complain that the BPDers "have no empathy" when they are confronting them over an issue.

 

I believe somewhere deep within her there is true love and emotion. I’ve seen rare glimpses of it bubble up.

If it's that deep and that rare -- during the 25 years you've been observing her -- it is hard to believe she loves you in any meaningful sense.

 

I think I already know that MC is not an option.

I agree, SMM, if you believe she exhibits strong warning signs for narcissism and/or BPD. My experience is that, until a BPDer has had years of experience in individual counseling, MC is a complete waste of time and money. As to narcissists, I cannot imagine MC ever being useful.

 

She feels loved when I help provide a life that is financially secure, stable and relatively free of emotion. This helps explain so many things in our past. She has a limited understanding of emotions and affection and sees most of it as frivolous and unnecessary.

Now you seem to be describing the symptoms (i.e., warning signs) for a secret schizoid. Despite the similarity in terms, "Schizoid PD" is very different from "schizophrenia." SPDers have trouble establishing personal relationships and expressing their feelings in a meaningful way. This is why they may appear very passive in the face of unfavorable situations. Moreover, an SPDer's communication with others may be indifferent and terse sometimes. Because they feel suffocated whenever their personal space is violated, they usually are happiest when they are in a relationship in which they are independent and the partner places few emotional demands on them. The problem is not that they want to avoid people as such but, rather, avoid the emotions (both negative and positive) and avoid the self disclosure.

 

Well, there is a subset of these SPDers who have all those traits but are able to be very outgoing all day long at work or with casual friends -- putting on a good front that misleadingly suggests they really are interested in becoming close to other people. These folks are called "secret schizoids" or "hidden schizoids." At risk of overwhelming you, I suggest you follow my link above and read about them.

 

Some of what you've written today about your W seems consistent with this behavioral group. As you said, "She can connect with people very well...." On the other hand, her harsh reactions (e.g., belittling others) when someone has the temerity to disagree with her is a hallmark of narcissistic traits. An interesting issue, then, is whether you may be seeing an overlap of predominantly NPD traits with SPD traits. It would be interesting to hear what your therapist thinks about that.

[Downtown]

I'm interested in hoe MC could damage the healthy partner.

Good question, NewLeaf. My experience is that, until a BPDer has had years of therapy to address the more serious issues, MC it is likely to be destructive. One reason is that the weekly meetings provide the BPDer with a stage on which perform and play out her role as "The Victim" -- and provide her with an audience (the counselor). As soon as the counselor starts to catch on to the ruse, the BPDer will insist on getting a new counselor.

 

Another reason is that, to the extent an untreated BPDer acquires the communication skills taught by MCs, she will be better at manipulating you (something BPDers otherwise are not very good at because they tend to be so reactive to current events that they don't properly execute their plans).

[Popsicle]

One thing I suggest you ask your therapist to help you deal with beforehand and overcome is the guilt that comes with leaving a spouse, including the guilt that gets thrown at you by the spouse and/or their family.

 

That was one of the hardest things I had to deal with, and I choose to deal with it by extricating myself from his family after the D and limiting our contact to things only related to the kids and parenting. (we had this put in writing too actually)

[Miss Clavel]

I don't even know her but imo she's already got 7 of the 9 symptoms of hormonal imbalance, she pushes you away when you're happy, fearing you're gonna ”want some"(intimacy). Then gets scared you might actually go away. Because, underneath, she does love you.

 

And I have to tell you that NOT having any money is never a turn on for any women I've ever met.

 

If the doctor can't find anything wrong, she might just be using u until she's finished school, or, you're fibbing and you have not been practicing proper hygiene?

 

Either way, she needs a simple blood test and you should be able to make her get one.

 

P.S. You are right, divorce will damage your children and affect your family for decades.

[SoMuchMore]

Thanks so much to everyone for your thoughts and support! It's really helped

 

After a few bewildering conversations with my wife, and more work with my therapist, I've learned a few things that may help other's in a similar situation. The hardest part of being in a situation like mine is understanding what's really going on, since my wife won't go to counseling or share *any* of her feelings. It's made even harder knowing she's a great mom, highly intelligent, constantly giving to others, and overall a decent person. It's made it easy to accept all the blame and often feel very crazy. Some of the new insights help make sense of it all...

 

• My wife is dissmissive-avoidant according to attachment theory. This really describes all the issues well. Any conversation about the "relationship" is doomed and she'll quickly spiral them into a bizarre series of diversions. She views almost any "normal" request in marriage as needy. Most of the negative things that happen are her way of reinforcing her independence. It's common for this trait to get worse as time passes in an LTR, which it has. She "uses up" any tolerance of closeness with our kids.
  
• She has some traits that fit borderline and narcissistic (also common with avoidants), but some things haven't added up. On the other hand, the dissmissive-avoidant traits concisely explain almost everything that's happening within our relationship and why few things have worked or helped.
  
• She is aromantic (like I mentioned in the title of this thread). This is fairly common to a degree with people who are dissmissive-avoidant. She also has no need for emotional intimacy. She recently asked me to explain what I mean by "emotional connection" and after trying to explain from several different angles, she still had no clue what I was talking about. I used "emotional affairs" as an example and she didn't understand that either, or why it was a bad thing.
  
• She is not asexual, but her labido has greatly decreased over time, or there is an imbalance like Miss Clavel suggested. She doesn't have a romantic feeling toward sex, and any sense of intimacy and closeness end up triggering her avoidance. I mistook her sexual desire all these years as her only way of showing affection, but for the most part it was just sex for her, or a way to charm me when she needed to. Now that I look back I it makes sense and explains a few odd things.
  
• She disassociates from her emotions. This is hard to find info about, but my therapist said it's not rare. She isn't aware of her own emotions. When asked why she's mad, she'll say "I'm not mad" even though she is displaying anger. She does the same thing when she seems in a good mood. She has detached her logical mind from her emotional one. She likely "learned" to do this during her childhood while experiencing severe sexual abuse.
  

 

Some of the things that have come up recently have surprised me after 26 years together. It's so bizarre to me that I never would have suspected of any of this. It brings a completely different understanding to the years of hell I've put myself through.

 

The advice I've been given by my therapist is to chose from my only 2 sane options:

1. Work on strong boundaries with my wife and give up on any type of relationship with her other than coparenting.
   
2. Divorce.
   

 

As I reread the advice I've been given in this thread, I don't think the above changes the recommendation to leave her. It's just a way of "closure" for me to understand it clearly. I need that for some reason, especially when making a decision that involves of 3 kids. Their lives aren't perfect under the circumstances, but they are doing well and have 2 very loving parents. Even though my therapist recommends divorce for my own sanity, he admits that my kids will likely take it hard for a while, especially my child who has emotional issues. It feels very selfish to put them through that. Are my issues that much worse than the issues they'll have from the divorce? If you have younger kids (mine are in grade school) and have a close bond with them, how do you get through divorce especially when *you're* the one filing?

[bluefeather]

Are my issues that much worse than the issues they'll have from the divorce? If you have younger kids (mine are in grade school) and have a close bond with them, how do you get through divorce especially when *you're* the one filing?

 

Those are serious questions, and I really can't answer them well enough. I have no experience with marriage or divorce or having kids, so obviously take this with as many grains of salt as you like. What I do have experience with, however, is bad parents - bad parents who stayed together and ended up damaging me as I grew to watch how I thought love was supposed to be expressed.

 

Here is another side. When your children grow up, there is a chance they will go after a person with similar traits as their parents. If you have a son, for example, and he grows up to find himself in a similar situation as yours, as he modeled his loving partner as the first woman he loved, his mother... if he was then going through the types of feelings as you are right now, (married with children, in fact), what would you advise him to do? "Allow yourself to suffer without the love you need for the sake of pleasing others," or "divorce?" What you do now may set the example for him to follow later. - This is not really to say that one choice is better than another. I say it more to show that there can be good and bad consequences for every choice, and some that you won't even know about until later, if at all.

 

Staying with this person can teach two lessons:

"I was afraid of what you would go through, so I stayed." - the lesson is blame

or

"I loved her and you kids so much, I continued to try (and suffer) for all of us to be together." - the lesson is sacrifice

 

Divorcing can teach two lessons:

"I couldn't deal with it, so I left, regardless of what it might have done to you." - the lesson is selfishness

or

"I loved her and all of you so much, but I could not allow her to continue to abuse me like that." - the lesson is love of self

 

 

That is my response to your worry of the effects of divorce on your children.

[SoMuchMore]

Staying with this person can teach two lessons:

"I was afraid of what you would go through, so I stayed." - the lesson is blame

or

"I loved her and you kids so much, I continued to try (and suffer) for all of us to be together." - the lesson is sacrifice

 

Divorcing can teach two lessons:

"I couldn't deal with it, so I left, regardless of what it might have done to you." - the lesson is selfishness

or

"I loved her and all of you so much, but I could not allow her to continue to abuse me like that." - the lesson is love of self

 

Thanks, bluefeather, this is an interesting way of looking at it. I think in the end I may not have a choice. The only way to deal with the "crazymaker" environment may be to get out. She may not be a full-fledged narcissist, but she has a masterful way of manipulating situations and does it constantly. Here's a classic example from a recent conversation where I started out positive and loving:

 

Me (upbeat): "I'd like to spend a little more time together to talk and reconnect. We agreed to work on improving our marriage and I think this would be a good start."

Wife (angry): "Is this what we're going to talk about, our relationship?!? Can't we ever talk about anything else?"

Me: "What?!? We haven't talked about our relationship in months. My point was that we take a little time together to talk about whatever is going on in our lives. I know you're super busy, but I'd like to set just an hour aside once a week."

Wife (angrier): "It just figures. You do this every time. This always happens when I'm busy. I feel you pick the worst times to bring this crap up."

Me (startled): "What crap?!? Why are you twisting this around like this?"

Wife (condescendingly): "See, this is why I don't tell you how I feel. You just shut me down."

 

In a conversation like this, which can happen over any topic, I have no clue what to do... it will keep spiraling into hell. I wrote down a few conversations and read them to my therapist and he had to apologize for laughing because it is so bizarre! My wife rarely does it with the kids, just me. There are other things that she does so subtly and masterfully it took years of therapy to realize I wasn't actually crazy. No one else can see it! I think Downtown knows how hard it can be to realize the level of "crazymaking" someone with narcissistic traits are capable of.

 

Even after I realized what she's doing, there is rarely any real proof. If she blatantly verbally abused me, I'd know it's real. But what about when she sabotaged an outing with the kids – one that I really wanted to do but she didn't – by staging a family drama where the kids start crying and everyone wanted to go home? I can trace the series of events to her, but there's no concrete proof it was intentional. What if things like that happen so often I'm afraid to discuss what I want because it will turn sour for everyone, or she'll be super late, or she'll "accidentally" forget and have taken the kids somewhere else? Or are I'm just twisting these things in my own mind, since she is charming and warm once she has her way?

 

I think it comes down to this - either I'm crazy and she would be better off without me, or I'm not crazy and I'd be better off without her. I can't raise my kids from a white padded cell

[bluefeather]

Thanks, bluefeather, this is an interesting way of looking at it. I think in the end I may not have a choice. The only way to deal with the "crazymaker" environment may be to get out. She may not be a full-fledged narcissist, but she has a masterful way of manipulating situations and does it constantly...

 

I would make the decision and stop taking her abuse now.

 

The moment someone calls something I care deeply about "crap," the kid gloves come right off.

 

Your fear of rocking the boat is obvious in that conversation and it is being taken advantage of. Just my opinion, but I feel that such an eagerness to please is really wasted on a woman like that. Whatever you decide to do, I hope you find happiness.

[Popsicle]

Thanks, bluefeather, this is an interesting way of looking at it. I think in the end I may not have a choice. The only way to deal with the "crazymaker" environment may be to get out. She may not be a full-fledged narcissist, but she has a masterful way of manipulating situations and does it constantly. Here's a classic example from a recent conversation where I started out positive and loving:

 

Me (upbeat): "I'd like to spend a little more time together to talk and reconnect. We agreed to work on improving our marriage and I think this would be a good start."

Wife (angry): "Is this what we're going to talk about, our relationship?!? Can't we ever talk about anything else?"

Me: "What?!? We haven't talked about our relationship in months. My point was that we take a little time together to talk about whatever is going on in our lives. I know you're super busy, but I'd like to set just an hour aside once a week."

Wife (angrier): "It just figures. You do this every time. This always happens when I'm busy. I feel you pick the worst times to bring this crap up."

Me (startled): "What crap?!? Why are you twisting this around like this?"

Wife (condescendingly): "See, this is why I don't tell you how I feel. You just shut me down."

 

In a conversation like this, which can happen over any topic, I have no clue what to do... it will keep spiraling into hell. I wrote down a few conversations and read them to my therapist and he had to apologize for laughing because it is so bizarre! My wife rarely does it with the kids, just me. There are other things that she does so subtly and masterfully it took years of therapy to realize I wasn't actually crazy. No one else can see it! I think Downtown knows how hard it can be to realize the level of "crazymaking" someone with narcissistic traits are capable of.

 

Even after I realized what she's doing, there is rarely any real proof. If she blatantly verbally abused me, I'd know it's real. But what about when she sabotaged an outing with the kids – one that I really wanted to do but she didn't – by staging a family drama where the kids start crying and everyone wanted to go home? I can trace the series of events to her, but there's no concrete proof it was intentional. What if things like that happen so often I'm afraid to discuss what I want because it will turn sour for everyone, or she'll be super late, or she'll "accidentally" forget and have taken the kids somewhere else? Or are I'm just twisting these things in my own mind, since she is charming and warm once she has her way?

 

I think it comes down to this - either I'm crazy and she would be better off without me, or I'm not crazy and I'd be better off without her. I can't raise my kids from a white padded cell

 

Ugh. I totally get this. It has happened to me before and yes it is crazymaking. You're right that you don't have proof too and never will. Honestly, your only choice is to get out because it is abuse and you can't live like that forever. And yes, your wife will be livid and blame you 100%, if she is as toxic as you describe here, for the rest of your lives. You have to learn how to not internalize that or take it to heart and let it roll off of you, because this is just part of their mental illness. It's what they do, even though it's not true, so see it as a symptom rather than truth. The only satisfaction I can offer you about the situation is that, not until AFTER, you leave her life will she show very small subtle signs (not sweeping strides mind you) to realizing that she has a problem. But she probably won't make a lot of progress there because her pride will tell her to refocus on getting a new man to put up with her behavior instead. But the fact that she even thought about it for a second, rather than auto dismiss like she did before will give you some relief that maybe you mattered to her a little bit. The biggest reward for you in leaving though will be the mental and emotional peace that you now have, which you didn't have while being there with her. You will be able to heal yourself in and with that space.

[Mr. Lucky]

I think it comes down to this - either I'm crazy and she would be better off without me, or I'm not crazy and I'd be better off without her. I can't raise my kids from a white padded cell

 

To me, that's the decision you need to make.

 

It's not "can I deal with her"? It's "can I deal with what dealing with her will do to me"?

 

Your kids already have one challenging parent. They need one emotionally healthy one.

 

Though I don't underestimate the challenges of co-parenting with her, even when divorced...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Popsicle]

Your kids already have one challenging parent. They need one emotionally healthy one.

 

That is so true.

 

More about the kids...

 

How well do you know your kids personality, and how in touch or in tune with your kids emotions are you? I ask because I feel that some kids take divorce badly and some kids do just fine, it depends on the kid and their personality and emotions. I feel that if you tap into this, you can figure out how your kids will react to you and the divorce, and know how to progress from there.