Did Jesus exist?

[endlessabyss]

This seems to be a topic of huge interest, with studies on Jesus drawing attention from many people, from the general public to academics in secular institutions.

 

 

When beginning this journey of trying to figure out reality, I could have never really engaged in questioning the way I perceived the world, because it made me uncomfortable, riddled me with anxiety, confusion, as well as with depression/frustration. Why would people lie to me about the way reality was really constituted?

 

 

Back five years ago I had a huge mental breakdown that I thought I would never recover from, and in my ultimate times of despair I looked to scripture for strength. When thinking about Jesus not being real, it just blew my mind that what had gave me so much strength, courage, and solace was all one, big made up story. Surely materialism would have given me no hope, quite possibly pushing me over the edge.

 

 

Over the years I have investigated all this stuff with the majority of my spare time, and a lot of the way I think about the world has changed vastly. I'd now consider myself a spiritual Deist. Often, some days, I feel like a Christian, others I feel agnostic, but I totally rule out atheism, because I know that is the least credible world view of them all. The miracles of atheism outmatch any of the three monotheistic religions, combined.

 

 

So, this rant is really my way of expressing how important this topic is to me. Spirituality is a big thing for me, and I spend a lot of time in my head trying to make sense of this realty I am immersed in.

 

 

Jesus is a big factor in this equation as well, so I have been reading the about the different discussions about Him, was He a real person, or just some Gnostic myth?

 

 

I have just read through the first chapter of a book that goes over the evidence outside of the New Testament for the existence of Jesus. Traditional studies on Jesus only focused on what was in the New Testament, but with the developing methods that have historians use, outside sources have taken over as more important proofs for the existence of Christ.

 

 

The summary of the classical writers superficial mentions of Christ cannot be taken as proof for Jesus' existence, but they cannot be taken as proof for His non-existence. Who are these classical authors?

 

 

• Tacitus
  
• Pliney the Younger
  
• Thallos
  
• Mara
  
• Celcus
  
• Lucian
  
• Suetonious
  

None of these writers wrote about Jesus until a decade after his existence; others way further out in time.

 

 

Now, there may be plausible reasons why there were no contemporary records of Jesus. Documents may have been destroyed, the insignificance of Christianity at the time, the actual Christian movement was more of a focus to the classical writers (more than Christ Himself) etc.

 

 

There are two general themes we do get from most of these writers: Jesus is not a well like figure, viewed as a trouble maker. The only writers who don't have negative things to assert about Jesus are Thallos and Mara. Second, they all refer to Him as a historical person.

 

 

So, if any Christians who lurk on these forums would like to chime in, I'd like to know what your take on Jesus is? Is the evidence for His existence convincing to you?

 

 

I may also post more of what I read from the book I am engaged in right now. At the end of my journey I come to the inference that Christ didn't exist, the scriptures and image of Him will always remain special to me.

 

 

They tell a story of a great person who brought hope, order, as well as showed the harsh truths of life, and the suffering/pain/corruption that it entails.

Edited August 7, 2015 by endlessabyss

[Ronni_W]

So, if any Christians who lurk on these forums would like to chime in, I'd like to know what your take on Jesus is? Is the evidence for His existence convincing to you?

I think there can always be an argument AGAINST any source that one puts forth as one's own "proof positive" for the existence of Jesus. However, for me, yes, there was a real human being, an historical figure, named Jesus who did teach what later became the Christian teachings, and performed miracles, and was crucified as part of the spiritual mission that he had undertaken.

 

Interestingly enough, just yesterday (I swear), I found out about a book called 'The Life of Saint Issa'. It is easily available through a Google search.

If you want to get more "far out" or "new age" or whatever you want to call it, I absolutely love the site AskRealJesus.

 

At the same time, Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is within. So, that's where I go when I want to commune with him and get my real evidence for his existence.

 

Wishing you much joy in your own search for Truth.

[BC1980]

I think there are two questions here.

 

1. Did Jesus exist?

 

2. Was Jesus who the NT claims he was?

 

As for number 1, the vast majority of scholars believe that Jesus did exist.

 

As for number 2, that is an entirely different debate. . . .

[autumnnight]

This answer will have me labeled as simple by many. I am not ruffled by that, because their asessment of my IQ and thinking skills is of no concern to me.

 

I don't really need to track down a bunch of historical sources to prove to someone who has already decided to decry my faith that Jesus was real.

 

I believe He existed on earth, He was born of a virgin, He lived a sinless life, He died on the cross as payment for my sin, He literally, physically rose on the third day, He ascended into Heaven, He intercedes on my behalf, and because I prayed, repented of sin, and gave him my life 27 years ago, I am His.

 

I believe He is exactly who God's infallible Word says He is.

[BetheButterfly]

This seems to be a topic of huge interest, with studies on Jesus drawing attention from many people, from the general public to academics in secular institutions.

 

Aye. That's because the teachings of Jesus Christ and his example of love are so powerful.

When beginning this journey of trying to figure out reality, I could have never really engaged in questioning the way I perceived the world, because it made me uncomfortable, riddled me with anxiety, confusion, as well as with depression/frustration.

I am sorry it filled you with negative feelings.

 

Why would people lie to me about the way reality was really constituted?

Why do people lie about Santa Claus? While thankfully my parents didn't lie to me about Santa Claus, I think most parents who do so want to give their kids a "magical" childhood, taking advantage of a child's natural trust and innocence. Lol I remember arguing with my Mom (who never lied to me about Santa) about the existence of Santa Claus, cause could she not see that Santa was at the mall? Obviously he existed lol! (I was 6 then.)

 

However, I don't think lying is good, with the exception of lying in order to protect people, like how Corrie ten Boom lied in order to protect the Jewish people hiding in her family's home. That kind of lie is acceptable in my opinion, since otherwise people would have murdered other people. (Corrie ten Boom went to jail and then concentration camps for hiding the Jews, as the Nazis knew she was lying... she did help save the lives of several Jewish people though.) Jesus Christ is the reason why Corrie and her family helped rescue the Jews. They also understood that Jesus is Jewish, which is something for some reason some Gentiles don't understand.

 

Back five years ago I had a huge mental breakdown that I thought I would never recover from, and in my ultimate times of despair I looked to scripture for strength.

I am sorry for what you went through. I am glad you looked to scripture for strength. Me too.

 

When thinking about Jesus not being real, it just blew my mind that what had gave me so much strength, courage, and solace was all one, big made up story. Surely materialism would have given me no hope, quite possibly pushing me over the edge.

Why do you think that Jesus is not real? It's common sense that some Atheists are going to deny the existence of the Jewish man who specifically taught that God is our Father in Heaven. They don't believe in God; why should they believe in the existence of an incredible man who walked the earth around 2 thousands years ago and who claimed to be the Son of God, the only way to the Father? Of course some Atheists will doubt the very existence of Jesus Christ, same as they doubt the very existence of a Creator.

 

 

Over the years I have investigated all this stuff with the majority of my spare time, and a lot of the way I think about the world has changed vastly. I'd now consider myself a spiritual Deist. Often, some days, I feel like a Christian, others I feel agnostic, but I totally rule out atheism, because I know that is the least credible world view of them all. The miracles of atheism outmatch any of the three monotheistic religions, combined.

 

So, this rant is really my way of expressing how important this topic is to me. Spirituality is a big thing for me, and I spend a lot of time in my head trying to make sense of this realty I am immersed in.

 

 

Jesus is a big factor in this equation as well, so I have been reading the about the different discussions about Him, was He a real person, or just some Gnostic myth?

Jesus Christ was a real person who was truly crucified on a cross. He wasn't the only Jewish man crucified on the cross but he is the one most remembered. Jewish people who have rejected Yeshua (Jesus) as the Mashiach (Messiah/Christ/Anointed King) have many reasons why they deny him and consider him to be a false Messiah. One reason is because he did not rescue the Jewish people from their enemies at the time: the Roman Empire.

 

However, Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ) has had Jewish followers which includes his chosen apostles. Even Paul is a Jewish follower of Jesus, and yep, Paul and Jesus' apostles existed too!

 

The Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and caused Jewish people to flee their land. It is very possible that the Roman Empire destroyed important documents concerning Jesus Christ. The Roman Empire was pagan and sporadically tortured/killed followers of Jesus Christ until Constantine made it legal to be a Christian in 313 AD. By this time, most of the followers of the Jewish Messiah were Gentiles, since many of the Jewish followers had been killed.

 

The followers of Jesus Christ, both Jewish and Gentile, who were tortured and/or killed for Jesus' sake did truly believe Jesus Christ existed.

 

I have just read through the first chapter of a book that goes over the evidence outside of the New Testament for the existence of Jesus. Traditional studies on Jesus only focused on what was in the New Testament, but with the developing methods that have historians use, outside sources have taken over as more important proofs for the existence of Christ.

 

 

The summary of the classical writers superficial mentions of Christ cannot be taken as proof for Jesus' existence, but they cannot be taken as proof for His non-existence. Who are these classical authors?

 

 

• Tacitus
  
• Pliney the Younger
  
• Thallos
  
• Mara
  
• Celcus
  
• Lucian
  
• Suetonious
  

None of these writers wrote about Jesus until a decade after his existence; others way further out in time.

A decade after is not very long, in my opinion. Remember, the Jewish people were going through a struggle for their very nation. It wasn't the most peaceful time. Also, the followers of Jesus Christ experienced persecution... even Saul/Paul persecuted Jewish believers until he encountered Jesus for himself. He was eventually killed for Jesus Christ; that's how much he believed in Jesus Christ!

 

 

Now, there may be plausible reasons why there were no contemporary records of Jesus. Documents may have been destroyed, the insignificance of Christianity at the time, the actual Christian movement was more of a focus to the classical writers (more than Christ Himself) etc.

I think the boldened part is what happened. Also, Jesus Christ promised the Holy Spirit. He didn't promise an autobiography or biography. The Gospel accounts are awesome and I believe are inspired, but the Holy Spirit is what Jesus Christ promised to his followers who walked and talked with him. They are the ones who began spreading the Gospel (Good News) to other people, starting in Jerusalem. (Acts 1-2).

 

There are two general themes we do get from most of these writers: Jesus is not a well like figure, viewed as a trouble maker. The only writers who don't have negative things to assert about Jesus are Thallos and Mara. Second, they all refer to Him as a historical person.

For some people in that time period, Jesus was considered a troublemaker. For other people, (both then and now) Jesus is considered a false Messiah. For still other people, Jesus is considered the Christ, the Anointed King on the throne of King David forever, a promise accounted in the Tanakh for posterity: 1 Chronicles 17:11-15; Psalm 2:6-7; Psalm 89:26-28; Isaiah 9:6-7.

 

 

So, if any Christians who lurk on these forums would like to chime in, I'd like to know what your take on Jesus is? Is the evidence for His existence convincing to you?

Oooh... "lurk" such a sneaky word

 

My take is that Yeshua HaMashiach is the fulfillment of 1 Chronicles 17:11-15; Psalm 2:6-7; Psalm 89:26-28; Isaiah 9:6-7, among other prophecies concerning him. I understand that other people do not accept him and that is their right. I respect their right and am so thankful for freedom of religion.

 

My desire in life however is to obey him because I love him. Jesus Christ rescued me from the pit of despair. I possibly would have killed myself if not for him. I love that he taught love for neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:25-37) and taught love for enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). I love that he taught the Golden Rule (Luke 6:31).

 

If I did not know Jesus Christ personally, I would be either dead, an Agnostic or an Atheist. Jesus Christ however is God's amazing love in human form (in my experience).

 

Of course there are people who deny his existence. That doesn't bother me at all. While I personally wish a time machine existed so we could go back in time and see Jesus Christ, I choose to trust that he lived, that he died on the cross and rose again, ascended into Heaven, and will return someday.

 

I don't think my beliefs hurt anybody, especially since I don't believe in violence and hatred, since Jesus Christ taught his followers to love even enemies.

 

I may also post more of what I read from the book I am engaged in right now. At the end of my journey I come to the inference that Christ didn't exist, the scriptures and image of Him will always remain special to me.

 

 

They tell a story of a great person who brought hope, order, as well as showed the harsh truths of life, and the suffering/pain/corruption that it entails.

Again, the people who long ago endured horrific persecution because of Jesus Christ did indeed believe Jesus existed. Otherwise, they would not denounced him. I recommend that you read Fox's Book of Martyrs

 

 

The early Christian martyrs were closer in time to Jesus Christ and they suffered for the name of Jesus Christ. In the time of Paul, the question was not whether Jesus Christ existed, but rather if suffering persecution was worth it.

 

I am curious. Do you question the existence of Paul, as well as the apostles of Jesus Christ? Do you also question the existence of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel), Moses, Jeremiah, and the other prophets of the children of Israel?

 

Thanks. Blessings on your search for truth. May God bless you with his Love, Peace, and Joy.

Edited August 7, 2015 by BetheButterfly

[endlessabyss]

I am curious. Do you question the existence of Paul, as well as the apostles of Jesus Christ? Do you also question the existence of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel), Moses, Jeremiah, and the other prophets of the children of Israel?

 

 

First, thank you for the very thoughtful response.

 

 

I do not question the existence of Paul, but for Moses and the patriarchs I do.

[jay1983]

There's plenty written in history indicating that, yes Jesus existed. 3 major religions and several others citing Jesus or Yeshua. Several other very similar stories from other religions. For example, Greek Paganism's Hercules, son of king of the gods, born from a moral, virgin mother, a savior to the people, etc. Also the story of Buddha is very similar to Jesus.

 

My take, yes there was someone depicting Jesus. Is the biblical story accurate? I can't prove that.

[Ronni_W]

I do not question the existence of Paul, but for Moses and the patriarchs I do.

Do you mean that you're not too sure about the OT's version of events? Growing up, I had perhaps a similar sense or intuition or whatever we want to call it. To me, the God of Moses just did not seem to fit with my own inner sense. It also is a very different God than Jesus' God or "Father".

 

There are some sources/texts that, if you read between the lines, both the OT and the NT are not "pure", in the sense that they were influenced by the fallen consciousness...existence of which is contained in both Genesis and Revelation (which, still are not "pure" but...well, that's what's in the OT and the NT.) And, even in Jesus saying to Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan..." -- that does speak to the existence of a fallen (or "satanic", if you will) consciousness on this planet.

 

We either accept Jesus' teachings, or we don't, I think. People try to emphasize this of his teachings while ignoring that...internally, some people can reconcile themselves to that, but I really have not been able to successfully do that. (They do it with the OT, as well, but...)

 

At the same time, personally, I do accept the existence of those historical figures that are mentioned in the OT. For me, it just is that we need to recognize that it is our own responsibility to use Christ-discernment to uncover and know within ourselves (within our individual 'kingdom of God') what is True and Real, and what is untrue and unreal...no matter in which book or text or teaching or whatever we find what are but expressions of Truth...given for any specific "Age" or level of collective consciousness.

 

Where, in the OT or the NT, does it say that God's Truth is static and unchanging? Where does it say that God is a NON-transcending Being? (I haven't found yet, where it says that.) Where does it talk about the LIVING Word? the LIVING Christ?

[jay1983]

First, thank you for the very thoughtful response.

 

 

I do not question the existence of Paul, but for Moses and the patriarchs I do.

 

There's the story, (I think it's simarian or Babylonian) of King Sargon. His mother put him in a basket and floated down a river where someone found and raised him.

[Ronni_W]

There's the story, (I think it's simarian or Babylonian) of King Sargon. His mother put him in a basket and floated down a river where someone found and raised him.

Yes. I think also some Eastern, the Islamic and Egyptian. At some point: why are ALL the "prophets" or "revelators" or "messengers", or whatever we want to call them, repeating the pretty-much SAME story or fable or myth? It is a question, right?

[jay1983]

Yes. I think also some Eastern, the Islamic and Egyptian. At some point: why are ALL the "prophets" or "revelators" or "messengers", or whatever we want to call them, repeating the pretty-much SAME story or fable or myth? It is a question, right?

 

What's your take?

[Ronni_W]

What's your take?

I believe that there is a basic truth in both the OT and NT (and the Koran, Torah, or whichever other sacred text we wish to mention).

I believe that there is a fallen consciousness on Earth, which has perverted a lot of the pure teachings, the pure Truth, the true origin of humanity and of our spiritual natures.

 

I do believe in the Living Word and Living Christ -- progressive revelation -- which, to me, means that it is ever-transcending...growing, changing and, well, living. People who accept an "infallible" Word are therefore at odds with Jesus' teachings...even though they claim to be followers of Jesus, or of Christ, or of Jesus Christ. (However they do it, they do manage to reconcile within themselves that they are ignoring some of Jesus Christ's teachings and/or overlaying some of the older (OT) teachings onto what he brought forth in later times...as progressive revelation.)

 

To me, God and science are not "separate" or "opposite" or "in conflict". Neither is this group of people separate from or in opposition to that group of people. How can anything created by the One True Creator be separate from or in conflict with or opposition to itself?

 

Er. What is YOUR take?

Edited August 8, 2015 by Ronni_W

[jay1983]

I believe that there is a basic truth in both the OT and NT (and the Koran, Torah, or whichever other sacred text we wish to mention).

I believe that there is a fallen consciousness on Earth, which has perverted a lot of the pure teachings, the pure Truth, the true origin of humanity and of our spiritual natures.

 

I do believe in the Living Word and Living Christ -- progressive revelation -- which, to me, means that it is ever-transcending...growing, changing and, well, living. People who accept an "infallible" Word are therefore at odds with Jesus' teachings...even though they claim to be followers of Jesus, or of Christ, or of Jesus Christ. (However they do it, they do manage to reconcile within themselves that they are ignoring some of Jesus Christ's teachings and/or overlaying some of the older (OT) teachings onto what he brought forth in later times...as progressive revelation.)

 

To me, God and science are not "separate" or "opposite" or "in conflict". Neither is this group of people separate from or in opposition to that group of people. How can anything created by the One True Creator be separate from or in conflict with or opposition to itself?

 

Er. What is YOUR take?

 

From a purely logical standpoint. I believe God is likely to be real, but maybe not exactly what the scriptures depict. I also believe God and science coexist and are not as contradictory as they seem. Now is he a god of love? That I'm not to sure about.

 

In other words, I don't think all the religious scriptures are made up. I don't know who originally wrote them, but I don't think they made up by some Joe schmoe. Something happened back then and somethings going on today, I just don't know what.

[Ronni_W]

Well, I do agree with you. OT depicts an angry, vengeful God in the sky that is separate from us; and NT/Jesus talks about a "father" whose good pleasure it is too give us the kingdom, and whose kingdom exists right within each of us.

So, right away -- what's up with those two very contradictory descriptions???

In other words, I don't think all the religious scriptures are made up. I don't know who originally wrote them, but I don't think they made up by some Joe schmoe. Something happened back then and somethings going on today, I just don't know what.

We are very programmed -- even against what seems to be our own logic and/or free will -- to reject any idea of "God", TODAY, communicating through human beings...as he did through Moses, Abraham, whomever.

 

But, what is 'progressive revelation' or a 'Living Word', if it is not God talking to us today? And, did Jesus not say that he would ask the Father to send a Comforter/Helper/the Holy Spirit to teach us all things?

How do people think that is going to happen, if not through other people?

 

Even those of us are ARE open to questioning some or all of the Bible and/or its supposed infallibility...we still don't want to accept that God IS talking through current-day "messengers" or whatever we would call them.

 

Now, God's Love. Yes, it's difficult to see/perceive it on our planet right now. This here is a very low planet in an unascended sphere, and what we're seeing (mostly) are manifestations of the fallen consciousness, consciousness of duality or separation, consciousness of antichrist, or whatever we want to call it...and/but then only because of the infallibility of the Law of Free Will. That is the primary Law for Earth, and God...or rather, God's representatives for Earth will NOT override it; and cannot, really.

 

I get the part about not knowing exactly what's going on; or perhaps not knowing what to accept is true or untrue, real or unreal in all the myriads of teachings and teachers out there -- who is a True Spiritual Teacher, and who is but a false one? For myself, I have to rely on that same 'God within me' that Jesus talked about, to just intuit or discern for myself, what is most likely a true, current-day teaching...what "feels right/true" in my Heart.

[TheFinalWord]

Well, I do agree with you. OT depicts an angry, vengeful God in the sky that is separate from us; and NT/Jesus talks about a "father" whose good pleasure it is too give us the kingdom, and whose kingdom exists right within each of us.

So, right away -- what's up with those two very contradictory descriptions???

 

We are very programmed -- even against what seems to be our own logic and/or free will -- to reject any idea of "God", TODAY, communicating through human beings...as he did through Moses, Abraham, whomever.

 

But, what is 'progressive revelation' or a 'Living Word', if it is not God talking to us today? And, did Jesus not say that he would ask the Father to send a Comforter/Helper/the Holy Spirit to teach us all things?

How do people think that is going to happen, if not through other people?

 

Even those of us are ARE open to questioning some or all of the Bible and/or its supposed infallibility...we still don't want to accept that God IS talking through current-day "messengers" or whatever we would call them.

 

Now, God's Love. Yes, it's difficult to see/perceive it on our planet right now. This here is a very low planet in an unascended sphere, and what we're seeing (mostly) are manifestations of the fallen consciousness, consciousness of duality or separation, consciousness of antichrist, or whatever we want to call it...and/but then only because of the infallibility of the Law of Free Will. That is the primary Law for Earth, and God...or rather, God's representatives for Earth will NOT override it; and cannot, really.

 

I get the part about not knowing exactly what's going on; or perhaps not knowing what to accept is true or untrue, real or unreal in all the myriads of teachings and teachers out there -- who is a True Spiritual Teacher, and who is but a false one? For myself, I have to rely on that same 'God within me' that Jesus talked about, to just intuit or discern for myself, what is most likely a true, current-day teaching...what "feels right/true" in my Heart.

 

Do you mind sharing your stance on doctrine? The reason I ask is you seem to intertwine occult doctrines into your post and I am not sure what philosophy you adhere too.

 

For example, Christ was talking to the apostles that they would be taught all things and that all Jesus spoke would be brought to their memories, not you and I.

All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

How this is going to happen is through providing and receiving of the scriptures, which we have. It is already fulfilled. Your words, my words, or anybody else's words should be weighed against scripture. Our words or teaching is not higher than scripture. Anything you or I say should be contrasted against scripture. Scripture is the gold standard (sola scriptura), not you or I. This is an orthodox doctrine of Protestant Christianity. So it appears you are at a fundamental variance with the plain teaching of scripture. Christ did not talk about you or me being a god. The only place this is drawn from is when Christ told those accusing him of blasphemy that they (Israel) God's representation (a mouthpiece for God) on earth because they had the scriptures. At no time did Jesus teach you or I have a god within us.

 

There is no difference between the God of the Old and New Testament. There are many passages about God's love in the Old Testament and perhaps the most vivid passages about his judgement are actually found in the New Testament. Jesus talked about hell frequently. The book of Revelation is much stronger in its language of wrath than any other place in the bible. When you study the scriptures, you can derive the same doctrines about God from the OT as the NT. We are given more insight into some aspects of God's Nature in the NT, but the same doctrine is derived from both testaments.

 

I am totally lost what you are talking about with ascended planets. There is nothing about that in scripture. The entire creation is fallen, not just our planet.

Edited August 8, 2015 by TheFinalWord

[TheFinalWord]

This seems to be a topic of huge interest, with studies on Jesus drawing attention from many people, from the general public to academics in secular institutions.

 

 

When beginning this journey of trying to figure out reality, I could have never really engaged in questioning the way I perceived the world, because it made me uncomfortable, riddled me with anxiety, confusion, as well as with depression/frustration. Why would people lie to me about the way reality was really constituted?

 

 

Back five years ago I had a huge mental breakdown that I thought I would never recover from, and in my ultimate times of despair I looked to scripture for strength. When thinking about Jesus not being real, it just blew my mind that what had gave me so much strength, courage, and solace was all one, big made up story. Surely materialism would have given me no hope, quite possibly pushing me over the edge.

 

 

Over the years I have investigated all this stuff with the majority of my spare time, and a lot of the way I think about the world has changed vastly. I'd now consider myself a spiritual Deist. Often, some days, I feel like a Christian, others I feel agnostic, but I totally rule out atheism, because I know that is the least credible world view of them all. The miracles of atheism outmatch any of the three monotheistic religions, combined.

 

 

So, this rant is really my way of expressing how important this topic is to me. Spirituality is a big thing for me, and I spend a lot of time in my head trying to make sense of this realty I am immersed in.

 

I always enjoy reading your testimony.

 

You're a thoughtful scholar and I appreciate where you are coming from. I was at a very similar place about 10 or so years ago. Even now, there are many things I do not know. I try to focus on the important pieces and not major on the minors. It will give you more peace Keep seeking!

[NGC1300]

I haven't read this whole thread, but consider the Greek mathematician Pythagoras lived and died some 500 years BEFORE the time of Jesus, and he still made it into the historical record for being good at math.

 

Meanwhile, a man supposedly walked on water, healed the sick, cured the blind, performed miracles, survived execution, and ascended bodily into heaven, and he never made it into the historical record outside of the scriptures themselves.

 

Not one extra-biblical reference to his existence. Only mentions of 'the Christ' which is not a name, but a title meaning 'the anointed one'. It's not a reference to Jesus.

 

Some still point to the writings of Josephus, but the entries describing Jesus are dubious and are very likely fraudulent.

 

More than likely Jesus is entirely mythological.

[endlessabyss]

I haven't read this whole thread, but consider the Greek mathematician Pythagoras lived and died some 500 years BEFORE the time of Jesus, and he still made it into the historical record for being good at math.

 

Meanwhile, a man supposedly walked on water, healed the sick, cured the blind, performed miracles, survived execution, and ascended bodily into heaven, and he never made it into the historical record outside of the scriptures themselves.

 

Not one extra-biblical reference to his existence. Only mentions of 'the Christ' which is not a name, but a title meaning 'the anointed one'. It's not a reference to Jesus.

 

Some still point to the writings of Josephus, but the entries describing Jesus are dubious and are very likely fraudulent.

 

More than likely Jesus is entirely mythological.

 

 

Interesting you bring up Pythagorus, because a lot of people attempt to bring up parallels between him and Jesus. Pythagorus is said to have performed miracles, had disciples, and was a wise/charismatic teacher. There is also the parallel with fish catching that is shared between the two.

 

 

But, unfortunately, there are people who also think that Pythagorus didn't exist as well.

 

 

6 Historical Figures Who May or May Not Have Existed ? HISTORY Lists

 

 

As for Josephus, the passages that touch upon Jesus were interpolated by Christians, and Christians were heavily reliant on the work of Josephus, since he did mention Jesus in his work. Jews didn't reference to Josephus because he was a traitor in their eyes.

 

 

Origen quoted from Josephus, which have been at the time when his works weren't manipulated, but at the time of Eusebius we get something different, which is when the text may have been changed. I am interested in Eusebius, because some claim he re-wrote history, and was the church propagandist.

 

 

Critical scholars have reworked the passages, in Josephus' works, to try and depict what he actually said about Him.

 

 

There are two reworked passages that scholars work off of, one is a neutral look on Jesus, the other is a negative. In both reworked passages we get the facts that most historians agree about Jesus.

 

 

Ironically, the evidence from Josephus is used as some of the strongest evidence for Jesus' existence, because he most likely didn't get his information from other Christians, due to the way the passage is written.

 

 

The Jesus Myth Thesis is pretty interesting to me, but it is still a minority view that most academics don't take very seriously. Is this because of tradition? Who knows?

Edited August 8, 2015 by endlessabyss

[endlessabyss]

I always enjoy reading your testimony.

 

You're a thoughtful scholar and I appreciate where you are coming from. I was at a very similar place about 10 or so years ago. Even now, there are many things I do not know. I try to focus on the important pieces and not major on the minors. It will give you more peace Keep seeking!

 

Thank you.

 

 

You are one of my favorite posters here. You always come of very controlled in all your responses, and show no aggravation/hostility towards others who come off as condescending.

 

 

This quest of trying to find some truth to reality has been fun, as well as gloomy; sort of double edged sword.

 

 

If I could, I would just sit around and read most of the day lol. I have so many books to read, with so little time to do so.

 

 

I look forward to future posts from you. You always bring good information, and insight, to the table.

[SoleMate]

The historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, and the major facts of his life, are as strong, or stronger, than that for many other figures of the ancient world, like the poet Homer, or King Arthur. The overwhelming consensus of historians, textual critics, and Biblical scholars, is that Jesus did exist, and claimed to be the Messiah, and died by being crucified one the order of Pontius Pilate. This is without any need for reference to faith or any supernatural beliefs.

 

Did Jesus Exist? Searching for Evidence Beyond the Bible ? Biblical Archaeology Society

 

'Did Jesus Exist?' A Historian Makes His Case : NPR

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

 

The question of whether he was the son of God, had any supernatural qualities, or was resurrected, is a much less clear one. That belief can only be founded on faith. I can't utterly prove those things didn't happen, but I don't see any reason to believe they did. To my mind, it's clear that Jesus was an amazing natural person and teacher, and almost certainly quite sincere in his own beliefs. Due to the offensiveness of his ideas and teaching to the religious and political powers of the day, he was unjustly tortured and executed.

[Ronni_W]

and I am not sure what philosophy you adhere too.

The doctrine/philosophy of the LIVING Christ, the LIVING Word. As best as I can recognize and internalize it; that is the philosophy that I choose to use.

For example, Christ was talking to the apostles that they would be taught all things and that all Jesus spoke would be brought to their memories, not you and I.

Do you not consider yourself an "apostle" or a "witness" for Jesus Christ?

(a) Christ did not talk about you or me being a god.

(b) At no time did Jesus teach you or I have a god within us.

Jesus' MAIN teaching was that the kingdom of God is within us. Each of us, you and me and every other human being of this planet. We could, I suppose, say that he meant ONLY those people who were listening to him speak at his live events...but I don't hold that interpretation of his words.

I am totally lost what you are talking about with ascended planets. There is nothing about that in scripture. The entire creation is fallen, not just our planet.

There is also nothing about airplanes or atoms, TFW. I don't accept that God created an ENTIRE creation that is fallen. I believe that the fallen consciousness sprang from the misuse, by Beings in a higher sphere, of their God-given free will and, through that misuse, they then "fell" into the material universe of which our planet is a part.

 

I agree with you that there is only One True God; whether found in the OT, NT or some other source...still only One True God.

[autumnnight]

Sometimes I think it is unfortunate that the English language falls so short in translating or transliterating the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. If we has as many words and understood the historical context, a lot of the confusing offshoots, misinterpretations, and "new thought" philosophies could be explained and/or corrected.

[TheFinalWord]

The doctrine/philosophy of the LIVING Christ, the LIVING Word. As best as I can recognize and internalize it; that is the philosophy that I choose to use.

Do you not consider yourself an "apostle" or a "witness" for Jesus Christ?

 

A witness yes, but not an apostle. There is a big difference. The apostles were the original disciples of Christ. They provided for us the doctrines of Christianity, against which all spiritual truth is contrasted. For example, if I go insane and start teaching people something that contradicts the teaching of the apostles (e.g. you have a god within you) you should reject that teaching. Why? It contradicts the gospel provided to us from the apostles. No matter what I say, if it contradicts the teachings of the apostles it is incorrect. When I say I am a witness for Christ, that means I am sharing the gospel of Christ as provided by the apostles. If my witness contradicts the apostle's teaching, it should be rejected. Here is what Paul said:

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

Jesus' MAIN teaching was that the kingdom of God is within us. Each of us, you and me and every other human being of this planet. We could, I suppose, say that he meant ONLY those people who were listening to him speak at his live events...but I don't hold that interpretation of his words.

 

We must recall, Jesus spoke primarily to Jews. Paul was called as the apostle of the gentiles and Peter to the Jews.

 

I think the main confusion here is you are suggesting that everyone has the kingdom within them. However, if you read Paul's teachings clearly that is not the case.

 

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Paul said not to be deceived about this, those that reject Christ are not inheriting any part of God's Kingdom. That is very clear in the scripture. What I mean by rejecting Christ is those that do not receive by faith His sacrificial atonement for sin are not going to inherit the Kingdom of God. I do not mean a "Christ consciousness". I mean his sacrifice for our sin, which is what separates us from God.

 

There is also nothing about airplanes or atoms, TFW. I don't accept that God created an ENTIRE creation that is fallen. I believe that the fallen consciousness sprang from the misuse, by Beings in a higher sphere, of their God-given free will and, through that misuse, they then "fell" into the material universe of which our planet is a part.

 

I agree with you that there is only One True God; whether found in the OT, NT or some other source...still only One True God.

 

I don't understand what you mean by the first paragraph, the fallen consciousness sprang from the misuse...Satan fell and 1/3 of the angels, but we know exactly why. It was because Lucifer rebelled against God and wanted to be worshiped as God.

 

Anyway, good talking to you. I don't want to derail the OP

[autumnnight]

I suspect fallen consciousness means a lack of enlightenment and consciousness, as opposed to the more evolved "Christ consciousness"...

[SallyU]

Why does it even matter if he existed or not?

 

Is truth less valid having come from someone of a different name?

 

I don't understand religion for this reason.

 

For instance a post made yesterday which admonished me to not "change" someone (not that I was even doing that but I digress) yet at the same time it was clearly implied that I had a problem due to my beliefs or should change my religion.

 

I live in the Deep South and have regular knocks on my door from various Christian sects, Mormon, baptist, Jehovah witness among others telling me I am wrong and need to change my beliefs. They will even try to coerce me by saying if I don't change I will go to hell.

 

If a person requires *that much* validation then they are on the wrong path.

 

Just sayin'

 

Peace out!