Did Jesus exist?

[pie2]

So, if any Christians who lurk on these forums would like to chime in, I'd like to know what your take on Jesus is? Is the evidence for His existence convincing to you?

 

Yes, the evidence is convincing to me. The information is there for us to hear. We each have to make a decision if it's truth and relevant to our lives.

 

 

Matthew 13:1-23

 

The Parable of the Sower

 

“A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

...

 

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

[joystickd]

I think he existed but most of the evidence that supported his existence was destroyed to limit the image of Jesus.

[cerridwen]

Why does it even matter if he existed or not?

 

Is truth less valid having come from someone of a different name?

 

I don't understand religion for this reason.

 

For instance a post made yesterday which admonished me to not "change" someone (not that I was even doing that but I digress) yet at the same time it was clearly implied that I had a problem due to my beliefs or should change my religion.

 

I live in the Deep South and have regular knocks on my door from various Christian sects, Mormon, baptist, Jehovah witness among others telling me I am wrong and need to change my beliefs. They will even try to coerce me by saying if I don't change I will go to hell.

 

 

It's a bit of a double-bind, isn't it.

 

Alan Watts speaks of it.

 

To paraphrase, it's a double-bind because you're required to do something which will only be acceptable if you're doing it voluntarily (accepting Jesus as your savior).

Yet, you're threatened with ever-lasting Hell if you don't wholly and voluntarily accept Him with all your heart and mind (with damnation looming as incentive).

 

I wonder how that works exactly?

How does one conjure GENUINE love and acceptance of Jesus under threat?

Shouldn't it come from within?

 

Extremely bad form that.

 

Signed,

A Christian

Edited August 12, 2015 by cerridwen
I forgot a "s"

[autumnnight]

To paraphrase, it's a double-bind because you're required to do something which will only be acceptable if you're doing it voluntarily (accepting Jesus as your savior).

Yet, you're threatened with ever-lasting Hell if you don't wholly and voluntarily accept Him with all your heart and mind (with damnation looming as incentive).

 

I wonder how that works exactly?

How does one conjure GENUINE love and acceptance of Jesus under threat?

Shouldn't it come from within?

 

Extremely bad form that.

 

Signed,

A Christian

 

I sign this as well

 

It is interesting how many Christians think anger and hate will bring people to Jesus. And bringing people to Jesus IS EVERY Christian's primary faith directive (Matt 28:19-20), so you'd think they might learn to do it more like Jesus did and less like the Pharisees did.

 

I remember working for someone as a writer for awhile, and I was supposed to come up with weekly Scriptures. I was specifically told to make sure they were "wrathful God" verses and not "any of that Jesus loving everybody" stuff. Nice. The man was a nut.

[Haydn]

I`m sure he existed. He was probably a bloke that doled out good advice.

 

Obviously some felt he got a little to big for his boots and decided to warm his size 7`s.

 

Not much has changed......

[BetheButterfly]

I`m sure he existed. He was probably a bloke that doled out good advice.

 

Obviously some felt he got a little to big for his boots and decided to warm his size 7`s.

 

Not much has changed......

 

Jesus radically displeased many people. He rebuked the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and for rejecting him. He also displeased the Jewish zealots for refusing to lead the Jewish people into war against the Roman Empire.

 

His followers were mostly known "sinners", which was a complaint of the Pharisees. His apostles were fishermen, a former tax collector, and others who were not well-known and respected in the religious elite. He did things that the religious leaders thought were against God, such as healing people on the Sabbath.

 

While Peter valiantly tried to defend Jesus, Jesus pacifically allowed his enemies to take him for torture and death, rebuking Peter for using a physical sword as he did so:

(I boldened some and put the text in paragraphs for easier reading.)

 

Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you came to do.”[f] Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him.

 

And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant[g] of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

 

But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled.- Matthew 26:50-56 (ESV)

 

Jesus Christ cared about fulfilling the Hebrew Scriptures in the Tanakh, even though many Jewish people don't believe he truly did. However, his Jewish followers believed in him and spread his teachings to the Gentile world too, thanks to the vision God gave to Peter (Acts 10) and Paul's encounter with Jesus which led to him being a missionary to the Gentiles (Acts 9 and Acts 15). Jesus Christ still has both Jewish and Gentile followers, which in my opinion does show proof of his existence and influence!

[TheFinalWord]

I`m sure he existed. He was probably a bloke that doled out good advice.

 

Obviously some felt he got a little to big for his boots and decided to warm his size 7`s.

 

Not much has changed......

 

Nobody's perfect. Well there was this one guy but we killed him...

[deadelvis]

No.

 

Just no.

 

C'mon people...

[cerridwen]

No.

 

Just no.

 

C'mon people...

 

A compelling argument.

 

Tell me more.

[deadelvis]

Occam's Razor...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

[autumnnight]

I am interested in hearing evidence besides occam's razor that Jesus did not exist.

 

Citations please.

[cerridwen]

Occam's Razor...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

 

So, are you attempting to use Occam's Razor to dispute the existence of the historical Jesus or the Christ Jesus?

 

Bone thrown.

[fryingpan]

I have always thought of it as a fact that Jesus did infact exist. I come from one of the most secular nations in the world and we where thought in school that he did exist.

 

Jesus is an historical figure just like caesar, william wallace or gandhi. I don't think that can be disputed.

 

But if he was the son of God or not is something that cannot be proven one way or the other.

[deadelvis]

I don't have time to debate the existence of Jesus, Aliens etc.

Even if I had the time, I still wouldn't want to. Not because it's difficult, but because you can't change someones mind if they already believe...

[cerridwen]

I don't have time to debate the existence of Jesus, Aliens etc.

Even if I had the time, I still wouldn't want to. Not because it's difficult, but because you can't change someones mind if they already believe...

 

First of all, Elvis is alive.

 

 

and second of all, okay.

[autumnnight]

First of all, Elvis is alive.

 

 

and second of all, okay.

 

Elvis works at 7-11. He gives you free slushies if you promise not to tell.....

[youngskywalker]

When thinking about Jesus not being real, it just blew my mind that what had gave me so much strength, courage, and solace was all one, big made up story.

 

Well said. I went through the same thing myself.

 

But if you believe Jesus was NOT God then what difference does it make if he was a real person or not? To me at that point it just doesn't matter anymore. Personally I believe he was a real person that developed a cult like following during or perhaps even after his death (the later being more likely). Jesus himself didn't invent christianity. His followers did.

[writergal]

Jesus did not exist. Jesus did not exist because he was a character in a story, rather than an actual human being who lived. Jesus was an allegory story based on the Jewish Exodus myth. There is no accurate, historical or archeological record of a Jesus from Nazareth. 'Christ' is the label that Christians gave idols that they worshipped. The original manuscripts of the Bible have never been found, just endless series of copies on top of copies.

 

The spiritually divine aspects of Jesus were taken from other major characters in history and attributed to Jesus, to bring him alive in the Bible, like from Dionysos, Osiris, Hercules, Attis, Mithra, Horus, Zarathustra etc. There is nothing original about Jesus at all.

 

And the teachings of Jesus are borrowed from other sources. Jesus didn't originally teach anything. Again, some heavy plagiarizing went on with the creation of the Bible. Teachings from the Buddha were stolen and re-written from Jesus' perspective as though he originated the teachings. Or from the pagan Greek texts.

 

From the internet:

 

Syncretism is the combining of different, often contradictory beliefs, while blending practices of various schools of thought. Syncretism involves the merger and analogizing of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, thus asserting an underlying unity and allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths.

 

Christianity is definitely a fusion of different beliefs and practices. Same with Jesus. He was not a real person.

Edited September 7, 2015 by writergal

[autumnnight]

Jesus did not exist. Jesus did not exist because he was a character in a story, rather than an actual human being who lived. Jesus was an allegory story based on the Jewish Exodus myth. There is no accurate, historical or archeological record of a Jesus from Nazareth. 'Christ' is the label that Christians gave idols that they worshipped. The original manuscripts of the Bible have never been found, just endless series of copies on top of copies.

 

The spiritually divine aspects of Jesus were taken from other major characters in history and attributed to Jesus, to bring him alive in the Bible, like from Dionysos, Osiris, Hercules, Attis, Mithra, Horus, Zarathustra etc. There is nothing original about Jesus at all.

 

And the teachings of Jesus are borrowed from other sources. Jesus didn't originally teach anything. Again, some heavy plagiarizing went on with the creation of the Bible. Teachings from the Buddha were stolen and re-written from Jesus' perspective as though he originated the teachings. Or from the pagan Greek texts.

 

From the internet:

 

Syncretism is the combining of different, often contradictory beliefs, while blending practices of various schools of thought. Syncretism involves the merger and analogizing of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, thus asserting an underlying unity and allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths.

 

Christianity is definitely a fusion of different beliefs and practices. Same with Jesus. He was not a real person.

 

Other than the definition of a term, what historical research and documentation do you have that a man named Jesus did not exist at or around the whole BC/AD turn?

[MrNate 2.0]

Did Jesus exist?

 

I think so.

 

 

Did he do the supernatural things he did? That's where most religions, like Islam, etc. differ. Islam, for example, believes in the same God as we do. However, they differ on who Jesus was.

 

Me? I believe Jesus very well existed. However, I do have to wonder about the supernatural elements as well.

 

In fact, this is where most of debates come from.

 

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself. If God can do things such as cure cancer out of someone, etc. Why can't God heal amputees?

 

 

One thing I've grown to learn is that I can't let the fear of eternal damnation in hell stop me from asking the questions most people are also wondering.

 

Do not let fear keep you from seeking understanding.

[endlessabyss]

Other than the definition of a term, what historical research and documentation do you have that a man named Jesus did not exist at or around the whole BC/AD turn?

 

You wont find much. I am almost done with Michael Grants (atheist/historian) book on Jesus, and he surely said He existed.

 

 

The book is one of the best books I have read about Jesus, by far. He has such an objective tone throughout the book, unlike what we see today in contemporary scholars who claim Jesus never existed (Carrier/Price/Freke/Gandy).

 

 

Even some of the biggest skeptics of the bible, such as Bart Ehrman, won't even deny Jesus' existence.

 

 

Writergal is very zealous about her atheism, so I wouldn't of expected anything less from her lol. Honestly, I love her posts; it's only when she puts herself on the pedestal, and says bigoted things about religious people, is when I get a little upset with her.

 

 

Most of the myths she brings up don't coincide with Christianity when you look at the primary source documents. They may have some broad similarities, but nothing specific that you would think they are copied.

 

 

I welcome everyone's input, as long as it is respectful

[TheFinalWord]

You wont find much. I am almost done with Michael Grants (atheist/historian) book on Jesus, and he surely said He existed.

 

 

The book is one of the best books I have read about Jesus, by far. He has such an objective tone throughout the book, unlike what we see today in contemporary scholars who claim Jesus never existed (Carrier/Price/Freke/Gandy).

 

 

Even some of the biggest skeptics of the bible, such as Bart Ehrman, won't even deny Jesus' existence.

 

 

Writergal is very zealous about her atheism, so I wouldn't of expected anything less from her lol. Honestly, I love her posts; it's only when she puts herself on the pedestal, and says bigoted things about religious people, is when I get a little upset with her.

 

 

Most of the myths she brings up don't coincide with Christianity when you look at the primary source documents. They may have some broad similarities, but nothing specific that you would think they are copied.

 

 

I welcome everyone's input, as long as it is respectful

 

Agreed. Honestly, I feel it is a internet infidel talking point without much substance (there was a YouTube video really popular for a while called Ziegeist, which seems to have propelled this idea). The stories are very different.

[froz]

YES he did. The world wouldn't exist the way it does right at this present moment if it weren't for Jesus Christ.

[NGC1300]

Even if he did exist, there's absolutely no reason to believe he was divine.

 

There are people living right now who claim to be God or have magic powers. Some even have followers that will give eyewitness accounts of the 'miracles' these figures perform. And yet, the rest of the world doesn't take these figures seriously. At all.

 

Yet take the same exact situation from 2,000 years ago (when people were even more ignorant, illiterate, gullible, and fearful) and 1/3 the modern world thinks it's credible and worth basing your life around.

 

The amount of logic and common sense you need to ignore to be a Christian is staggering.