A "Successful Affair" thread isn't making my future any clearer...

[Sunlight72]

I've only read the first 5 pages of this thread, but I have to say this all really turns me off to marriage.

 

There seems to be all kinds of ownership expected for 30, 40 or more years.

 

If we marry, you will satisfy all your interests and desires within this two-person channel or suffer with my choice not to participate permanently, or you're an unforgiveable *****. You are no longer a person with choices outside of my conveniences/preferences. Yechhh.

 

What am I missing here?

 

A lot of the hurt responses I've read seem to be that people feel that no matter the problems in the marriage, the partners must endure and fulfill all their desires for intimate friendship, romance, and new interests with their spouse/spouse's permission or not at all.

 

If a partner becomes cool, distant or bitter and denies the other space/time/emotion to pursue anything outside the marriage, that's just part of the 'plan' that unfortunately didn't develop the way the partners planned 20 or 40 years earlier. Better luck next lifetime.

 

Does being mature mean surrendering to what ever cooling/changes in a partner come along that don't fit the 'plan' made at the time of marriage? Is there some other way forward?

 

Do you married people really expect all who marry to give up interests and happiness if things get sour/cold in the marriage? That there is no longer any such thing as personal fulfillment after marriage? The only interest/focus that matters is the marriage itself unless things are perfect, and you're not permitted to invest time or emotions anywhere else when the marriage is off it's peak?

 

I'm thinking out loud, and welcome feedback, thanks!

[purplesorrow]

Pursuing other interests outside the marriage is very different from seeking another romantic/sexual relationship outside the marriage. My stbx had a lot of hobbies that I encouraged and supported. I took issue when I learned one of those hobbies was an ow. He changed the rules and opened our marriage without bothering to talk to me. Yet, he still expected and appreciated my fidelity. I never expected him to be some sort of of super human but I did expect honesty.

[ShatteredLady]

Many, many posts here recommend separation or divorce when 2 people just aren't compatible & they've tried. I believe that marriage is a commitment. People make promises & then make huge life changing decisions. They BOTH have the right to know if the rules have changed before they make further life plans.

[Morro72]

Do you married people really expect all who marry to give up interests and happiness if things get sour/cold in the marriage? That there is no longer any such thing as personal fulfillment after marriage? The only interest/focus that matters is the marriage itself unless things are perfect, and you're not permitted to invest time or emotions anywhere else when the marriage is off it's peak?

 

I'm thinking out loud, and welcome feedback, thanks!

When "us married people" get a little free time from careers, kids, etc. we generally spend it enjoying ourselves, one way or another. We generally do not have sufficient leisure time to worry about "all who marry" and their "interests and happiness" or anything else about their marriages, which we generally assume will be attended to by the people involved in those marriages.

[DKT3]

They don't allow children to marry, so all married people are adults. As such they don't need permission to do anything. However, if you decide to step outside the marriage to fill your "needs" then your spouse deserves to know this.

 

What your missing is "MOST" of these unfaithful people have no intention on leaving the relationship and are looking for something extra outside while maintaining the relationship. They are changing the rules mid game.

 

If one is unhappy in any romantic relationship the ADULT thing to do is fix it or get out. Introducing a third party doesn't do anything towards those two ends.

 

In the situation your talking about, she clearly has no intentions on being honest or leaving the relationship, that is her choice, nothing anyone says here will change that.

 

The problem that most here have is she is forcing her partner to live with her decisions and changing of the relationship.

 

In my personal opinion, she should cut bait and move on without him. There is a lack of respect and she is unhappy about things that he can't change. Its only a matter of time before the high of this fling\affair is gone, then what?

[Sunlight72]

...They are changing the rules mid game.

Yes, I agree. The problem is that "mid-game" thing. This isn't a game, it will never be over, there is no next game coming later if someone waits faithfully while their partner coasts without interest or with different interests (like kids' activities, job change, return to school, volunteering longer term, working on assignment out of state to advance a career, etc.).

If one is unhappy in any romantic relationship the ADULT thing to do is fix it or get out...

I see. I feel this is a crappy choice for a full range of options.

 

What if you care deeply for your partner and want to stay in a relationship with them, and be mutually supportive and nurturing while they are (for instance) not in the mood for, or prioritize something else over travel/going out dancing/romance/exploring new foods, etc. for a few years while they return to school/navigate their parents' aging/pursue their own new interests that you don't really share?

 

Maybe I don't understand the whole category you mean by "fix it" though. Help me out? Thanks

[Sunlight72]

When "us married people" get a little free time ... We generally do not have sufficient leisure time to worry about "all who marry"...

It is my impression from the condemning comments I read about how RecentChange is a liar, abusive, selfish, etc. that many of the married or formerly married people replying do have a pretty specific window on what they think is OK for other married people to do.

 

I agree that each relationship is ultimately the business of those in the relationship. I'm trying to get a broader picture than my own experience offers... see what ideas have been dreamed up (whether formally acknowledged by the people involved or not) on making a long term relationship worth maintaining.

[Sunlight72]

Many, many posts here recommend separation or divorce when 2 people just aren't compatible & they've tried. I believe that marriage is a commitment. People make promises & then make huge life changing decisions. They BOTH have the right to know if the rules have changed before they make further life plans.

Yes, I see where you're coming from. I'm wondering if there is another option than marriage and then divorce.

[DKT3]

Yes, I agree. The problem is that "mid-game" thing. This isn't a game, it will never be over, there is no next game coming later if someone waits faithfully while their partner coasts without interest or with different interests (like kids' activities, job change, return to school, volunteering longer term, working on assignment out of state to advance a career, etc.).

I see. I feel this is a crappy choice for a full range of options.

 

What if you care deeply for your partner and want to stay in a relationship with them, and be mutually supportive and nurturing while they are (for instance) not in the mood for, or prioritize something else over travel/going out dancing/romance/exploring new foods, etc. for a few years while they return to school/navigate their parents' aging/pursue their own new interests that you don't really share?

 

Maybe I don't understand the whole category you mean by "fix it" though. Help me out? Thanks

 

Marriage isn't one size fits all. The key is respect and communication.

 

Fixing it can take on many faces, mainly its done through compromise.

 

As far as wanting to stay in the relationship and be supportive and nurturing, how do you do that while your going behind the spouses back, sleeping with other people, that isn't supportive. What you suggest is like robbing your own home. You bust you azz to buy nice things by day, the break in and steal it at night..

 

People are more flexible in life and relationships then we give them credit for. I believe that people can be happy in whatever kind of relationship they can "AGREE" on. Alast we come to the issue, many of this people that seek validation outside are too selfish to come up with a solution that would have their partner the same freedom and options they have granted themselves. So they lie, decieve, mislead and abuse their spouse so they can have it all. The relationship where they put in a half azz effort, the lover on the side for the extra excitement and the loving FAITHFUL spouse at home. Its their perfect world.

[darkbloom]

If you don't want to stick with someone through the ups and downs for the rest of your life then don't get married.

 

People keep buying into the institution of marriage because society tells them to.

[truncated]

The thing I've seen in a lot of marriages is this.

 

The spouses have zero problem with "pursuing their own interests" when things are going well and the ,living is easy. They feel they have a right to do what they please, when they please and it really doesn't matter that much if it hurts their spouse.

 

Then something major happens in their life that is hugely stressful. All of a sudden, they go rushing back to their spouse for unconditional love and support.

 

It's as if the "we' comes a far second to "me".

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that spouses have to give up who they are to be married, but I also think that they have to view the relationship as an equal partnership, and place it on an equal footing. If you don't want to do that, don't get married.

 

Having hobbies and outside interests is one thing, and it's a good thing for each spouse. My husband engages in artistic activities as a hobby, and I encourage him in this and help him sell his art. Having sex or flirting/being with other women in a romantic way is NOT a "hobby", and if he wants to remain married to me, he won't do that.

 

If you want to be able to have outside "romance", then don't get married to anyone, or, at least be honest about that before they marry you. Also, don't get married too young.

[autumnnight]

OP, I can sort of see what you are asking. It sounds like you are asking this:

 

Once I get married, does that give my partner carte blanch to become a lazy, neglectful, frigid spouse, and I just have to suck it up?

 

The answer? Well, that depends on who you ask. There is a segment of married people who will respond to you by saying marriage is a commitment and worthy people keep that commitment no matter what and in sickness and in health means no matter what kind of lazy crap spouse my H or W decides to be, if I am a really good person, I'll just hang in there and deny myself. It has been my experience that most people who tout this line are the ones rejecting sex, not wanting to work at it, putting the kids first always, etc. Of COURSE they think a miserable spouse should deal and toe the line.

 

There is another segment of people who say, "Hey, if I;m not feelin' it this week, I'll just cut my losses." I cann this the "as long as we both have butterflies crowd," and they are the opposite extreme.

 

Then there is that segment who really truly does think it is fine to step out on your spouse and exchange bodily fluids with multiple people if your spouse isn't stepping up. These are the people who think it is passe to regard fidelity as an absolute, are very into "what they don't know won't hurt em," and have the gall to say affairs make marriages better. I don't really have a name for this group. And if I did the mods probably wouldn't like it.

 

Then there is what I call the real life group. They believe that when you make a vow to someone,you should move heaven and earth to keep that vow. If your spouse slacks and ignores and neglects their side, you should communicate, communicate, communicate. You should pull out every tool you can find to try to come together and meet halfway. BUT, in the end, if you are with a spouse who refuses to BE a spouse, then you are not a horrible person if you end the marriage because abject lifetime misery is NOT something you should have to endure forever. And until you are divorced or almost there, you need to keep your paws to yourself and not cheat.

 

I tend to side with that final group. We should give our marriages everything we've got for as long as possible. But there DOES come a point when a crappy spouse is not something we should have to spend the next 25 years suffering with. If we are going to move forward, however, we need to close up the past relationship before we start a new one.

[LovelyBrown]

 

[/b]People keep buying into the institution of marriage because society tells them to.

 

SO MUCH THIS^^

 

Over the past few weeks, while dealing with my own marriage I've had some honest talks with both males and females, SO MANY are unhappy and just settled or are cheating. There's something really wrong with what we've been told. It doesn't work.

[Mr. Lucky]

Yes, I see where you're coming from. I'm wondering if there is another option than marriage and then divorce.

 

Certainly open marriage/swinging is an option. But given its full disclosure and advance discussion of ground rules, it's a very different option than a "successful affair"...

 

Mr. Lucky

[truncated]

If one lives in a typical western country, there is no requirement to marry. People get married because they want to do so. There is something about the institution that appeals to them, whatever that may be.

 

In many cases , people want the benefits of marriage, but don't want to have any of the drawbacks. They spend more time planning the damned wedding than they do on thinking about what comes afterward.

 

In other cases, they feel pressured to marry, but seriously, if you are only getting married because you feel you have to, then that is a definite sign that you shouldn't

 

I have zero problem with someone divorcing if they are miserable in their marriage, are being abused, or if their spouse is unfaithful to them. No one should have to live their life that way. By the same token, Ii don't think that it should be a decision that is taken lightly.

 

Been married more than 18 years, and I admit there have been times when divorce looked sort of tempting, but maybe because I am too stubborn, it's never really been an option.There's also been times when I thought I'd lose him forever ( due to factors beyond our control) and that kind of cuts through a lot of the petty crap that used to bug me.

 

I didn't get married to just give up when things got tough or I am bored. I look at it as I am an adult and I am responsible for my own happiness. It's not fair to put that on my spouse. if he is doing ( or not doing) something I don't like, it is on me to let him know about it and work with him to find solutions to the problems. It's on him to listen to my concerns, take them seriously and work with me to find solutions.

 

For me, divorce is an absolute last resort, an infidelity is not even an option. I have to be able to like the person I see in the mirror every day, and if I was cheating, I wouldn't.

[Radagast]

There is a segment of married people who will respond to you by saying marriage is a commitment and worthy people keep that commitment no matter what and in sickness and in health means no matter what kind of lazy crap spouse my H or W decides to be, if I am a really good person, I'll just hang in there and deny myself. It has been my experience that most people who tout this line are the ones rejecting sex, not wanting to work at it, putting the kids first always, etc. Of COURSE they think a miserable spouse should deal and toe the line.

 

Meet my ex-wife.

 

Unfortunately though, this segment of people also often have one rule for themselves, and a different rule for everyone else. They expect their partners to be martyrs to the marriage, but cut themselves slack if they feel the "need" to seek out excitement elsewhere. Usually under the guise of some seemingly noble principle, as though it's a woman's duty to be unfaithful because marriage oppresses women.

[MJJean]

 

[/b]People keep buying into the institution of marriage because society tells them to.

 

SO MUCH THIS^^

 

Over the past few weeks, while dealing with my own marriage I've had some honest talks with both males and females, SO MANY are unhappy and just settled or are cheating. There's something really wrong with what we've been told. It doesn't work.

 

The "something wrong with what we've been told" is that we're supposed to be happy all the time. There seems to be a socially pervasive idea that we fall in love, get married, live happily ever after, the end. And if that doesn't happen, its because of a fault in the marriage, in the other spouse, or in the institution of marriage in general.

 

The truth is that we, as a species, are literally not designed to be happy all or even most of the time. Our brains are simply not wired that way.

 

Second, just because you fall in love doesn't mean you should marry that person. Marriages are about more than the warm fuzzies. I married the man I love, but I had great relationships with two men before him that I did NOT marry, even though they both asked, because I knew I was not long term, rest of my life, compatible with them.

 

This idea that we're supposed to choose a mate we love is correct, but making a decision to marry based solely on love is a recipe for disaster. There needs to be compatibility in many other areas.. sex, religion, lifestyle, finances, desire for children and how to rear them, etc. Anything less than general agreement on the important details of life issues is going to cause unnecessary strife.

 

Too many people, who have been taught love is the end all, be all, ignore red flags and forge ahead to marry a poor match for them.

[truncated]

"The "something wrong with what we've been told" is that we're supposed to be happy all the time. There seems to be a socially pervasive idea that we fall in love, get married, live happily ever after, the end. And if that doesn't happen, its because of a fault in the marriage, in the other spouse, or in the institution of marriage in general.

 

The truth is that we, as a species, are literally not designed to be happy all or even most of the time. Our brains are simply not wired that way.

 

Second, just because you fall in love doesn't mean you should marry that person. Marriages are about more than the warm fuzzies. I married the man I love, but I had great relationships with two men before him that I did NOT marry, even though they both asked, because I knew I was not long term, rest of my life, compatible with them.

 

This idea that we're supposed to choose a mate we love is correct, but making a decision to marry based solely on love is a recipe for disaster. There needs to be compatibility in many other areas.. sex, religion, lifestyle, finances, desire for children and how to rear them, etc. Anything less than general agreement on the important details of life issues is going to cause unnecessary strife.

 

Too many people, who have been taught love is the end all, be all, ignore red flags and forge ahead to marry a poor match for them."

 

NA excellent post, and something every person considering marriage ( or even living together) should consider.

[MJJean]

NA excellent post, and something every person considering marriage ( or even living together) should consider.

 

It never ceases to amaze me when I see posts about how much a couple love each other and yet are miserable in their marriage because they skipped asking/ discussing the hard questions about the day to day of living. Or worse, did ask/discuss, took the view that love conquers all, thought love would turn red flags into rainbows and unicorns, and went ahead anyways.

 

Love generally takes a beating by real life. There has to be more in order to have a successful marriage where both partners are reasonably content over the long term.

[Chi townD]

Well, her thread isn't very typical. A marriage is a commitment between two people that have promised to dedicate their lives to each other. But, that dedication has to be worked on and maintained. Communication and understanding is paramount for a successful marriage. People change over time. And two people have to understand the changes and find a happy median. Meaning, what we want in are 20s could be different than what we want in our 30s. And what we want in our 40s could be different than what we wanted in our 30s.

 

 

In her case. Her marriage is over and she doesn't even realize it. She's tickled pink that she cheated. She has no remorse for her actions and her marriage is a lie now. Even thought she's proud of the fact that she hid her affair without any consequences and things have cool off between her and the OM, there's a strong chance she's going to cheat again. Why? Because she found it so easy and no one got hurt. But, who's to say she won't get caught the next time out?

 

 

She eluded to the fact that she's the breadwinner of the marriage. So, even if he did find out, she's confident she'll land on her own two feet. But would she really? She would lose her husband, 50% of all bank accounts, CD's, retirement plans depending on how long they've been married. And if she's the breadwinner, her husband could probably petition for alimony. And they would have to divide martial assets up 50%. And probably have to sell the martial home. What would the OM lose? Nothing. Times wouldn't be as easy as she thinks it would be.

 

 

Cheating is never the answer.

[central]

If the marriage develops unfixable problems, there is divorce. However, divorce is often expensive and unfair to one of the partners (and sometimes even to both). It is also complicated by children, custody, and financial interdependence. Such future problems can be mitigated in a couple of ways: a good prenup, or by avoiding marriage altogether (but you can still live together in most states without the state assuming you are married). Of these options, never marrying in the first place is the cleanest choice with the least negative repercussions.

 

An alternative is to negotiate an open marriage either from the start or that triggers under certain conditions (such as when one partner becomes unwilling or unable to have sex at some minimum frequency). The later trigger scenario seldom work out, though, IMO - it's too difficult for an honest married person to find a consensual extramarital partner when they want one. It's easier to find one when you have the time to do so and are not already lacking for the basics at home.

 

Of course, you can also have an open relationship if living together, that addresses the same issues.

[Arieswoman]

Sunlight72,

 

I've only read the first 5 pages of this thread, but I have to say this all really turns me off to marriage.

 

Then don't get married if you are so cynical about it - simple !

[Arieswoman]

MJJean - post #17, excellent, I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

The "something wrong with what we've been told" is that we're supposed to be happy all the time. There seems to be a socially pervasive idea that we fall in love, get married, live happily ever after, the end. And if that doesn't happen, its because of a fault in the marriage, in the other spouse, or in the institution of marriage in general.

 

The truth is that we, as a species, are literally not designed to be happy all or even most of the time. Our brains are simply not wired that way.

 

Second, just because you fall in love doesn't mean you should marry that person. Marriages are about more than the warm fuzzies. I married the man I love, but I had great relationships with two men before him that I did NOT marry, even though they both asked, because I knew I was not long term, rest of my life, compatible with them.

 

This idea that we're supposed to choose a mate we love is correct, but making a decision to marry based solely on love is a recipe for disaster. There needs to be compatibility in many other areas.. sex, religion, lifestyle, finances, desire for children and how to rear them, etc. Anything less than general agreement on the important details of life issues is going to cause unnecessary strife.

 

Too many people, who have been taught love is the end all, be all, ignore red flags and forge ahead to marry a poor match for them.

 

This is why I have always supported pre-marriage counselling, and the Priest at my church does just that, so that couples know what they are undertaking. I think that one or two couples have backed out over the years, but better they do that before they get married, rather than get married and regret it later.

[truncated]

It never ceases to amaze me when I see posts about how much a couple love each other and yet are miserable in their marriage because they skipped asking/ discussing the hard questions about the day to day of living. Or worse, did ask/discuss, took the view that love conquers all, thought love would turn red flags into rainbows and unicorns, and went ahead anyways.

 

Love generally takes a beating by real life. There has to be more in order to have a successful marriage where both partners are reasonably content over the long term.

 

This is an excellent point.

 

I think we get the "disney":sick: version of what love is, and that is completely unrealistic. Just like any other human relationship, marriages go through ups and downs. It's easy when things are "up". not so much when they are "down".

 

Sometimes the down is the fault of one of the spouses, but oftentimes, it's due to something external or beyond their control.

 

In my own life, I had to get used to picking up and moving every couple of years, with no real say in how often or where we were going. I had to get used to my spouse being away for months at a time, and for some of that, not being able to contact him. I had to get used to being at the whim of something larger than we are that exerted a large portion of control over our lives.

 

It's not always easy, but I signed up for the laing haul, eyes wide open.

[MJJean]

MJJean - post #17, excellent, I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

 

 

This is why I have always supported pre-marriage counselling, and the Priest at my church does just that, so that couples know what they are undertaking. I think that one or two couples have backed out over the years, but better they do that before they get married, rather than get married and regret it later.

 

People can say a lot about the Church and Christianity in general, but what those organizations do for couples considering marriage is wonderful. If one belongs to a religious sect that requires premarital counseling chances are real life, day to day, details are going to be brought up for discussion. And that's a good thing considering the monumental commitment that marriage is supposed to be and the damage failed marriages cause to the spouses, children, family members, etc.

 

Remember back when the state made everyone take blood tests to get married? I wish the state required at least one session of premarital counseling or at least an online questionnaire the couple has to do before being issued a marriage license.

 

I belong to a catholic forum and have seen a few posters admit they abandoned their wedding plans during pre cana because real life issues were discussed and they realized the chances of them succeeding in marriage with that partner were slim.

This is an excellent point.

 

I think we get the "disney":sick: version of what love is, and that is completely unrealistic. Just like any other human relationship, marriages go through ups and downs. It's easy when things are "up". not so much when they are "down".

 

Sometimes the down is the fault of one of the spouses, but oftentimes, it's due to something external or beyond their control.

 

In my own life, I had to get used to picking up and moving every couple of years, with no real say in how often or where we were going. I had to get used to my spouse being away for months at a time, and for some of that, not being able to contact him. I had to get used to being at the whim of something larger than we are that exerted a large portion of control over our lives.

 

It's not always easy, but I signed up for the laing haul, eyes wide open.

 

Good for you and your spouse!

 

I passionately dislike the Disney version of life and love. I hate, with the fiery passion of a thousand suns, how people buy into that claptrap.

 

I wonder how many marriages imploded because someone filed or cheated during a "down" because they bought into that Disney garbage.

 

Not to mention, folks tend to blame unhappiness on things other than the root cause.

 

DH and I were in a "down" and contemplating divorce. We worked on why we weren't, as individuals, content with our lives. Turned out, it had nothing to do with us as a couple or our marriage. Those were just convenient targets to blame.