GravityMan Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I dont think confidence really has anything to do with it. A guy could be very confident in himself but not want to blow it by moving too soon. And I can pretty much guarantee that most of the women that would fit into this category that we speak of are the same type of women that would lose interest if the guy wanted to "talk" about it and lay it all out on the table. From my experience there seems to be two types of women in this case...one type is willing to openly communicate with the guy on how each other feels and where they stand....and the other type insists on the guy picking up on all her non-verbal signs and knowing exactly what she wants. I disagree...I think confidence has a lot to do with it. Here's the thing: a confident person doesn't worry too much about the nuts and bolts of dating...he doesn't get caught up in details or "rules". Instead, he just goes for it...he's not afraid to take occasional risks and often finds it fun to do so. If his decision turns out bad...oh well, keep your head up, live and learn. I don't think women expect a perfectionist here. Oh and another thing...confident people don't take things too personally. Combine the above with the following: - social awareness and skills, both verbal and nonverbal - emotional intelligence - lessons from past experiences, including past dates, relationships and general opposite-sex interactions - empathy ...and that's a guy who has a decent (or better) ability to know when the timing is good to make a move. And he doesn't have to think very hard about it either...it's more of an intuitive thing or gut feeling. I think you are overthinking dating and intimacy. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Male Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 Because she doesn't have strong feelings. You assume she does, I assume the feelings faded. Because that's how it works for me: no progression, interest fades. This doesn't mean sex, necessarily, but progression to physical somehow. How does anything fade? The guy is still the same guy that he was when the woman wanted him to make the move. The only thing that has changed is the womans perception of him, due to most women over analyzing the living hell out of situations, and usually coming up with assumptions that are conjured up in her mind but have no real evidence to support them. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Male Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) I disagree...I think confidence has a lot to do with it. Here's the thing: a confident person doesn't worry too much about the nuts and bolts of dating...he doesn't get caught up in details or "rules". Instead, he just goes for it...he's not afraid to take occasional risks and often finds it fun to do so. If his decision turns out bad...oh well, keep your head up, live and learn. I don't think women expect a perfectionist here. Oh and another thing...confident people don't take things too personally. That doesnt mean a guy is confident. It only means he has no care about the outcome, and is willing to play the odds. I know the entire world seems to think that if a guy can approach a woman, or go in for the kiss at the right moment, it means he's confident, but sorry, they are wrong. Many many guys that pursue women and have all the right moves actually are very insecure. They harbour insecurities about themselves. They think they arent good enough, they think other men are better, lots of different issues. But to cover this, they act out as a way of hiding their insecurities. Its exactly why a lot of men sleep with a different woman every week, or every few weeks. They need to constantly reaffirm themselves that they are "man enough" to bag a woman and get her in bed. Its the same reason many married men go out, and flirt, and get phone numbers, but never call. They simply need to make sure they "still got it". The insecurity of getting older, or maybe not being in as good a shape, or any number of issues makes them feel inadequate, so they "test" themselves. I could go out tonight, hit on 30 different women, and get shot down by 29 but get 1 phone number. Does that mean I am any more confident than the guy that doesnt do that? NO it simply means I dont care about rejection, willing to sell myself out and play the odds until a woman gives me her number. It has absolutely nothing to do with confidence. Do you think Tiger Woods cheated on his wife as much as he did because he has high self esteem and confidence?? Guys like that cheat because of the exact opposite. They need to feed their ego because deep inside the actually lack confidence. Getting that new notch on the bed post is what they need over and over again to smother the insecurity. Confidence is the most overused and misunderstood word in the dating world. Edited August 17, 2015 by Male 2 Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 How does anything fade? The guy is still the same guy that he was when the woman wanted him to make the move. The only thing that has changed is the womans perception of him, due to most women over analyzing the living hell out of situations, and usually coming up with assumptions that are conjured up in her mind but have no real evidence to support them. Sure, her perception changed, but due to getting to know him. Thats what the getting to know you process is all about: determining IF you're interested. Feelings change as we get more information, and interest either grows or fades. Link to post Share on other sites
BronzeAgeJaeger217 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Maybe women should follow a female Giraffes example, or the Topic Antelope, give it a try at least once on the guy and if he doesn't reciprocate, move on Link to post Share on other sites
smackie9 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I disagree...I think confidence has a lot to do with it. Here's the thing: a confident person doesn't worry too much about the nuts and bolts of dating...he doesn't get caught up in details or "rules". Instead, he just goes for it...he's not afraid to take occasional risks and often finds it fun to do so. If his decision turns out bad...oh well, keep your head up, live and learn. I don't think women expect a perfectionist here. Oh and another thing...confident people don't take things too personally. Combine the above with the following: - social awareness and skills, both verbal and nonverbal - emotional intelligence - lessons from past experiences, including past dates, relationships and general opposite-sex interactions - empathy ...and that's a guy who has a decent (or better) ability to know when the timing is good to make a move. And he doesn't have to think very hard about it either...it's more of an intuitive thing or gut feeling. I think you are overthinking dating and intimacy. This is spot on....why isn't anyone learning from this? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
kilgore Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 This is spot on....why isn't anyone learning from this? I wish I had been more of a risk taker when single. Not because I am unhappy now - I am very happy with my marriage. But I think it would have made me a bolder person Link to post Share on other sites
Author Male Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) I disagree...I think confidence has a lot to do with it. Here's the thing: a confident person doesn't worry too much about the nuts and bolts of dating...he doesn't get caught up in details or "rules". Instead, he just goes for it...he's not afraid to take occasional risks and often finds it fun to do so. If his decision turns out bad...oh well, keep your head up, live and learn. I don't think women expect a perfectionist here. Oh and another thing...confident people don't take things too personally. Combine the above with the following: - social awareness and skills, both verbal and nonverbal - emotional intelligence - lessons from past experiences, including past dates, relationships and general opposite-sex interactions - empathy ...and that's a guy who has a decent (or better) ability to know when the timing is good to make a move. And he doesn't have to think very hard about it either...it's more of an intuitive thing or gut feeling. I think you are overthinking dating and intimacy. This is spot on....why isn't anyone learning from this? Theres still many layers to it. CONFIDENCE: belief in oneself and one's powers or abilities I am a very confident guy. I can do many things. I am sort of multifaceted as far as being a geek and an athletic jock type rolled into one, as well as doing all my own car repairs and even major projects to my house. BUT....when it comes to dating, women pretty much ignore me because I refuse to play the games that other guys do to conform and get women. So women instantly label me as not having confidence, or no self esteem. Are those women aware of how confident I am with myself and my abilities to do 1000 things they wouldnt even attempt or have a clue about? No....they only judge me on their small little slice of the world that matters to them. And since I dont play ball with them, they dismiss me. Thats why I keep saying over and over that confidence is so misunderstood and misused when it comes to dating. You can be the most confident guy in the world....but still get nervous when you approach a woman you like. Just because you get nervous doesnt mean you arent confident!! But the woman sitting on her high horse will label you for those 2 mins of interaction, when she would never step out of her comfort zone and risk being judged like he just did. Can you say double standard?? I wouldn't worry about this sort of thing. Any woman who loses interest in you because you didn't hit on her fast enough wasn't all that into you to begin with. I know a few women who still show interest in me for years. Those are the ones you want to date, not the fickle ones who like you one minute and don't the next. Exactly! Makes me think the relationship is more about HER being selfish than actually being interested in communicating, growing, and getting to know the guy. Edited August 20, 2015 by Male Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Makes me think the relationship is more about HER being selfish than actually being interested in communicating, growing, and getting to know the guy. She did get to know him, and she didn't like what she got to know about him. It is not selfish to stop seeing someone you don't want to date. ALL of my partnered friends rejected some people they dated, early in the dating process. It isn't because they aren't interested in having a real relationship. They were just weeding out people who weren't good matches. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 It is not selfish to stop seeing someone you don't want to date. Of course not, it is about being pragmatic and not leading on men that she doesn't have an interest in. People when they date usually have a small window of opportunity to show who they are and what they are made of, anyone who doesn't want to play to those rules is going to be left behind. That is the bottom line. People in general like to be wanted and desired, if a man is going to dither about and show indecision and uncertainty in dating, that is not going to be attractive to most women. No women wants to put in the "maybe" pile and hang about waiting, whilst he is apparently making up his mind about her either. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
smackie9 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Theres still many layers to it. CONFIDENCE: belief in oneself and one's powers or abilities I am a very confident guy. I can do many things. I am sort of multifaceted as far as being a geek and an athletic jock type rolled into one, as well as doing all my own car repairs and even major projects to my house. Are those women aware of how confident I am with myself and my abilities to do 1000 things they wouldnt even attempt or have a clue about? Thats why I keep saying over and over that confidence is so misunderstood and misused when it comes to dating. You are getting confidence mixed up with competent. COMPETENT; having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully: 1 Link to post Share on other sites
smackie9 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Like I always say, a poor musician always blames his instrument. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pteromom Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 When you have a man and a woman that have gone out on a few dates, why do many women lose interest or change their view of a guy if he doesnt make a move within the allotted time frame that she expects? Different women handle the situation in different ways. Some women will just jump his bones, some women will send out blatant signs, but theres a lot of women that just lose interest in the guy like flicking a switch and no longer care to date him anymore. For the women that just lose all interest, why do you do that? If you liked the guy or were attracted to the guy enough to get to that point, I dont understand why you just throw it all away? Because a guy who isn't confident enough in himself to get what he wants isn't attractive. It doesn't necessarily mean sex - just show SOME kind of interest and moving forward physically. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Male Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 People in general like to be wanted and desired, if a man is going to dither about and show indecision and uncertainty in dating, that is not going to be attractive to most women. No women wants to put in the "maybe" pile and hang about waiting, whilst he is apparently making up his mind about her either. Thats my very point....just because a guy hasnt made a move on you doesnt mean he is "dithering about, or showing indecision, or uncertainty". The woman is manifesting that in her mind because she hasnt communicated with him about it. So for the 100th time....If you like the guy enough to want him to make a move on you WHY in the world would you throw away the chances at a great relationship by not talking to him about it??? I think the underlying issue here is that many women lack the skills to directly communicate and choose to second-guess and make assumptions by over analyzing with their friends on what the guy says or does. Majority of women right now if asked about dating will say "I wish I could just find a guy that isnt about jumping right into sex". In the mind of a guy that is looking for something more than a one-night stand, that wants to show respect, he will typically hold back a bit on physical intimacy to show her theres more to him than just getting physical. The problem though, when a woman actually likes the guy, she "forgets" that she said that earlier statement, and is now focused on "Why hasnt he made a move on me...doesnt he like me"? Because too many women think that if a guy likes her he NEEDS to prove it with physical contact. Thats where the issues arise. Its a double standard. She preaches about no physical contact, and getting to know her, but then judges the guy on how long it takes him to get physical. Whats wrong with the woman saying something? Nobody wants to address that. If its been 3 or 4 dates and he's only gave her a kiss at the end of the dates, and she is wanting more...why cant she bring it up in a cute or funny kind of way before ditching him? How does that hurt by communicating? Nope...instead most women just ignore the guy altogether, and then the guy is wondering what in the world happened. Link to post Share on other sites
mrldii Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 ...Whats wrong with the woman saying something? Nobody wants to address that... I did address it, back in my very first post in this thread: ...I expect any man I'm with to have enough confidence in himself and enough knowledge of social *rules* that when I'm returning his signs of attraction and sending him signals of my attraction, he will appropriately act on them... The "we need to have a talk" speeches get whipped out after he's proven himself relationship-worthy...NOT on a first-date, when we're simply establishing if each other is additional date-worthy. Link to post Share on other sites
d0nnivain Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 .If you like the guy enough to want him to make a move on you WHY in the world would you throw away the chances at a great relationship by not talking to him about it??? I think the underlying issue here is that many women lack the skills to directly communicate and choose to second-guess and make assumptions by over analyzing with their friends on what the guy says or does. Trust me. My communications skills are far from subpar. However, it's still tough to talk about it. In my instance, after DH hadn't kissed me on our 1st two dates, I ramped it up. I had worn pants & a top on the 1st date & a long skirt, a blazer & heels on our 2nd date because it was lunch on a work day. So for the 3rd date out came the miniskirt. I figured if he still didn't make a move, he was a lost cause, especially because I planned on being aggressive, lip licking, hair tossing, grabbing his hand across the table & perhaps slipping out of my shoe during dinner to tease his calf during under the table. Fortunately the skirt did the trick & I was kissed hello. But please, in my example, tell me where my planned behavior showed lack of communication even though I didn't use words? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Whats wrong with the woman saying something? Nobody wants to address that. If its been 3 or 4 dates and he's only gave her a kiss at the end of the dates, and she is wanting more...why cant she bring it up in a cute or funny kind of way before ditching him? How does that hurt by communicating? Nope...instead most women just ignore the guy altogether, and then the guy is wondering what in the world happened. Communication at this stage of dating doesn't hurt, but it seems sort of pointless. The vast majority of men don't need coaching. They just naturally take charge and lead. That's what she wants, so why would she try to change this guy instead of accepting that he's not what she wants and finding a better fit? Rule #1: don't date someone you want to change. Maybe you should apply that, too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 The reality is that most men are pretty savvy about what a woman is thinking, what she wants and how to pitch his approach correctly, I guess those that aren't that savvy, struggle in dating, and whilst SOME women are happy to walk a man through the process of the first few dates, many just aren't that patient. They just want a normal man, not someone they have to spoon-feed, as that tends not to augur well re the relationship going forward. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Male Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Communication at this stage of dating doesn't hurt, but it seems sort of pointless. The vast majority of men don't need coaching. They just naturally take charge and lead. That's what she wants, so why would she try to change this guy instead of accepting that he's not what she wants and finding a better fit? I dont believe that. I truly think that most men make moves on women whether they think they see a green light or not. If the woman was hoping for it she thinks he picked up her sign and gives him brownie points for it, when actually he never got the sign and just wanted some action. it's pretty funny how in this thread so many women are giving guys so much credit on being able to read them and figure them out...yet 6 mos from now, a thread will pop up and there will be a hoard of women complaining about how guys are clueless and never pay attention to them. The reality is that most men are pretty savvy about what a woman is thinking, what she wants and how to pitch his approach correctly, Refer to my previous reply above. In my instance, after DH hadn't kissed me on our 1st two dates, I ramped it up. I had worn pants & a top on the 1st date & a long skirt, a blazer & heels on our 2nd date because it was lunch on a work day. So for the 3rd date out came the miniskirt. I figured if he still didn't make a move, he was a lost cause, especially because I planned on being aggressive, lip licking, hair tossing, grabbing his hand across the table & perhaps slipping out of my shoe during dinner to tease his calf during under the table. Fortunately the skirt did the trick & I was kissed hello. Your example proves absolutely nothing. I wouldnt be surprised if you are making it up just to argue against me. You have no evidence that the guy wasnt already thinking "When I see her today I'm going to walk right up and kiss her".......regardless of what the hell you had on. Did you ever think of that??? The "we need to have a talk" speeches get whipped out after he's proven himself relationship-worthy...NOT on a first-date, when we're simply establishing if each other is additional date-worthy. I specifically stated after 3-4 dates. So your argument is baseless and you know you are going around what I said just to try to make your point sound good. And I also never said to make it a big "we need to talk" issue. As far as relationship worthy...what if I need 3-4 dates to determine if I want to get physical with a woman? Whats wrong with that? Why does it seem most women expect a guy to get physical with them so quickly? And why does getting physical seem to be the only thing that proves a guy is interested? Edited August 20, 2015 by Male Link to post Share on other sites
Gloria25 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 If I say it once, I'll say it again "Interested men ACT interested" The guy I recently was trying to get with? He approached his current chick first and told her how "pretty" she was...ok? He did not "hide", run, and/or wait for signals from her...He and her shacked up quickly too...and without giving more details here, let's just say he didn't hold back when it came to her - yet, I couldn't even get a 1 min convo in with him. I ask myself "why" all the time and fact is, she is what he wants...so, he moved on her quickly so no other guy would "claim" her. THAT'S WHAT INTERESTED MEN DO. If a guy isn't trying to "claim" you, he ain't interested...period. Now, what did he want with me? I still don't know. Attraction? Yes. Interest? No. Why not interested? Cuz I'm not what he's looking for. He wants to try the whole "marriage and kids thing" and I don't. He also probably thinks I'm a 4 or 5 and she's a 3. He prefers a 3 cuz she's pretty and dependent on him. She ain't goin' anywhere. So, while he would like to tango with a 4 or 5, he's playing it smart and sticking with a 3 - and she knows that too...hence, why she is lax in dolling up for him and taking care of her body...she knows she's got him in the bag and he ain't gonna venture past her. So, at the end of the day INTERESTED MEN ACT INTERESTED AND MAKE A MOVE...period. If a guy isn't making a move - regardless for the reasons behind it (see elaine567's post/list in this thread) - he ain't interested and a woman can jump naked on his forehead and he still ain't gonna make a move...PERIOD. So, this is not a woman's fault here - which the OP tends to believe. I think he and other guys need to do some introspection and stop waivering as to why they aren't acting on certain women instead of blaming women. Link to post Share on other sites
d0nnivain Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Your example proves absolutely nothing. I wouldnt be surprised if you are making it up just to argue against me. You have no evidence that the guy wasnt already thinking "When I see her today I'm going to walk right up and kiss her".......regardless of what the hell you had on. Did you ever think of that??? As far as relationship worthy...what if I need 3-4 dates to determine if I want to get physical with a woman? Whats wrong with that? Why does it seem most women expect a guy to get physical with them so quickly? And why does getting physical seem to be the only thing that proves a guy is interested? Gee thanks for assuming & concluding I'm a liar. It is a true story. You are right that I don't know that DH wasn't thinking about kissing me before I changed my outfit. The only reason I shared my personal experience is to get you to recognize that non verbal communication still counts as communication. You keep wanting to discount the idea that 2 people can read each other. Nobody said you couldn't have 3-4 dates to determine if you want to get physical with a woman, whatever physical means to. All I ever said, if you bothered to read it, was that a man who didn't at least kiss me early on was incompatible with me & somebody I did not care to invest more time or energy in. I (meaning me, not you or anybody else) like decisive men who feel chemistry & who act on it. I want somebody who was physically demonstrative. Not everybody feels the same way but for two people who are fundamentally incompatible on such an important level, there is no point in dating because it won't work out in the long run. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Gloria25 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Not everybody feels the same way but for two people who are fundamentally incompatible on such an important level, there is no point in dating because it won't work out in the long run. Exactly.... Dating is to figure out if you're a "match" with someone (unless you're looking for companionship and giggles)...you look for signs of compatability, interest, attraction, etc...and, this is especially crucial in the initial stages of dating where people have minimal time invested. Now, if you need more time to get to know someone and/or your "mode" of dating is not mainstream, for you to sit there and think every man or woman is gonna put their ego, heart, etc out there and flat out communicate that orally to you? You're dead wrong. They're gonna probably save face and move on to someone else and consider you having a lack of interest/attraction...therefore, the onus is on "you" to put the person on notice how you operate. Look, also, don't lie to yourself...if you are ambivalent on making a move on a chick - you probably aren't interested in her and if you force it - it won't work out...and, that's my fear with that dude. If in la-la land or bizzzaro world he'd date me, he'd never be happy with me...cuz the insecurities that pushed him to claim a 3 are gonna haunt him throughout our RL and I don't have time to be walking on eggshells with some guy...been there, done that. I mean, I got my insecurities too and if he's unsure about me? I'm gone.... Like d0nnivan, I've had my fair share of being the initiator, aggressor, and/or "I'm your girl and not with anyone else, what more do I have to prove here!?!" Girl and am too old to play that game. I'll work with a dude, but after the 3rd or even 100th time (cuz I'm being generous), I'm calling it quits. Oh, and as for the chicks that are ok with little to no physical contact? **pfft** gotta watch out there cuz they are either naive and later in your RL they are gonna want more attention/sex/affection; and/or, they really have issues with sex and/or intimacy and when you eventually get comfy with them in the RL or marriage and want sex/intimacy with them - you're gonna be in for a rude awakening...But hey, if both parties have low/no libido - then they might just make it as happy roommates with kids and bills - some people want what they want and that's "a-o.k." Link to post Share on other sites
mrldii Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 ...I specifically stated after 3-4 dates. So your argument is baseless and you know you are going around what I said just to try to make your point sound good. And I also never said to make it a big "we need to talk" issue. As far as relationship worthy...what if I need 3-4 dates to determine if I want to get physical with a woman? Whats wrong with that? Why does it seem most women expect a guy to get physical with them so quickly? And why does getting physical seem to be the only thing that proves a guy is interested? You also specifically said, "...if he doesnt make a move within the allotted time frame that she expects?" This 'she' knows herself - and is comfortable enough with herself - to know within the first date if I am interested enough in a guy to let him know I am responding to his *advances* and am sending him the signals and cues to let him know that they are welcomed...or not. There's absolutely nothing wrong with you if you're the type of guy that needs 3-4 dates to determine if you want to get physical with [me,] a woman, or not. You're just not the type of guy for me. See? I figured that out on the first date, because of your reluctance/inability TO make a move, regardless of your reason for not doing so. This "mutual attraction" prerequisite in dating can be tricky stuff...but, it doesn't negate that it is a prerequisite. By the way, you keep asking questions of posters (like you're trying to gain understanding) and when some of us respond giving an answer you don't like, you get rather testy about it. If you'd simply like to hear from others who already share your point of view (because you know you're right), you should give some of us a heads-up in your OPs and subsequent posts, so we'll know not to taint your thread/topic with our opposing viewpoints / dissenting opinions / honest answers to what appear to be honest questions. Best of luck to you... Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Appears to me the OP is upset with women that do not respond to his hands off style of dating and he is upset with men who take what they can get as quickly as possible too. But there is room for everyone, there are no hard and fast rules that decree dating must be done in a certain way and all other forms of dating are null and void. Women, the longer they date, tend to work out what is best for them and they learn to recognise the signs of men they do NOT want to date or have anything to do with. They may make mistakes sometimes, BUT they are ALLOWED to do so. They can choose who they want to date/hang out with/hook up with, sometimes that may be the player who just wants some "sexy time" and makes that plain from the first minute, sometimes it is the shy, inexperienced guy who 6 weeks later is struggling to invade her personal space. Women in the same way as men, see what they like and go for it and see what they don't like and reject it. Dating is a two way street, neither gender HAS to conform, because some guy on LS is getting upset about it all. Sometimes it is just feels right, whether it takes 6 mins, 6 hours, 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years to get physical. Feeling right is the main thing and if women are rejecting and fading on "Male", then the interest, is just not there. I guess it has little to do with the fact he is not grabbing their a$$ on date one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Male Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 I ask myself "why" all the time and fact is, she is what he wants...so, he moved on her quickly so no other guy would "claim" her. THAT'S WHAT INTERESTED MEN DO. If a guy isn't trying to "claim" you, he ain't interested...period. Theres still a huge grey area to it. But I dont think the women on here see it that way. Physical contact seems to be the "only" benchmark for most women to determine if a guy is interested...why is that? Do words mean nothing since women have been burned by so many guys in the past? And in the world outside this thread, majority of women are on their soap box wishing they could find a guy that isnt about jumping right into a physical relationship. Link to post Share on other sites
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