Important conversation with MM soon

[Goodbye]

I know you don't want t hear this, but he is only talking to you to keep his foot in the door. No, I can't be 100% sure of this, but I'm confident the odds are not in your favor. ExMM would do the exact same thing. He'd do the "softening" process. Go from NC to "just want to talk," keep it light. This may feel like it has promise THIS TIME AROUND, but next year when he is STILL doing/saying the same stuff...not so promising.

 

If you really love him and don't want to end it, tell him not to contact you in any way until he has filed for divorce. Respect that he needs time and space to figure this one out. In the meantime, don't sit around. Live your life. You may find in a few weeks/months he wasn't as awesome as you thought. Or maybe you'll be in the small minority of OW who has the MM return to them unattached.

 

Right now his goal is to distract you from NC. Keep you guessing if he going to leave his W. It's really quite a selfish stance for him. Hopefully you will see it this way. Unfortunately right now you seem to be in a place of unlimited hope where there isn't much. Go dark and let him find you if he is truly serious about this.

[elaine567]

How to handle it.

When he talks, listen.

Process what he says.

 

Agreed.

Don't feed him the answers, with the questions you ask Dela.

 

For Ex.

YOU: Will we live in the mountains? I love the mountains, I love skiing.

Is easy to answer and to lie about too.

HIM: Yes, we will live in the mountains and we can go skiing whenever you want to.

 

But the more open question is harder.

YOU:Where do you want to live?

HIM: I want to live in the city.

YOU: Oh...

Let him do most of the talking and listen carefully to what he actually says and not what you want him to say.

"I want to leave my wife." "I should leave my wife" "I would leave my wife", I could leave my wife" does not actually necessarily mean "I am going to leave my wife" for instance.

 

Take note of how he says things and the exact words he uses.

Do not try and fill in the story or rewrite the story with what YOU want to hear.

Ask questions to clarify, and do not assume anything.

[lemondrop21]

Agreed.

Don't feed him the answers, with the questions you ask Dela.

 

For Ex.

YOU: Will we live in the mountains? I love the mountains, I love skiing.

Is easy to answer and to lie about too.

HIM: Yes, we will live in the mountains and we can go skiing whenever you want to.

 

But the more open question is harder.

YOU:Where do you want to live?

HIM: I want to live in the city.

YOU: Oh...

Let him do most of the talking and listen carefully to what he actually says and not what you want him to say.

"I want to leave my wife." "I should leave my wife" "I would leave my wife", I could leave my wife" does not actually necessarily mean "I am going to leave my wife" for instance.

 

Take note of how he says things and the exact words he uses.

Do not try and fill in the story or rewrite the story with what YOU want to hear.

Ask questions to clarify, and do not assume anything.

 

Agree 100% that you should listen to THE EXACT WORDS. I remember once watching MM fumble around for words when I called him out on being wishy washy. He then said "From my perspective, my marriage is over." Or it might have been "From my perspective, my marriage is dead." One of the two. From HIS perspective. But not from his wife's perspective. Which TECHNICALLY left the door open for them to work out the marriage. Because he was later able to basically say, well, she worked on things and it's getting better, so my perspective has changed.

[HappyAgain2014]

"Have you filed for divorce?"

 

I already know that. It s not that kind of conversation.

I wanna know how sure he is on what he s saying and also if he planned to D i wanna know when, how, if I should be around or not when this happen, how is he planning to do it and be in his kids life as much as possible etc.

I also wanna know if he D, does he want to remarry someday? Does he want more kids? These things are important to me and deal breakers.

 

Thanks for your post

 

Filing for divorce is the ONLY conversation that should be meaningful to you. It's the only conversation that will truly change your life and your status as a secret.

 

Any conversation about other things, like his wishful thinking plans, merely invites him to future fake with your invitation and wiling participation.

 

Bargaining seldom benefits you, especially when you're the one making the deal.

[HappyAgain2014]

Thanks Poppy.

But I need to have this conversation, I need to know what plans he has and what he has to say so I can figure it out if there s a chance for things to happen or not. That s why I asked for smart questions. I m sure u all had that talk with the MM and I m curious what u asked, even if things never changed and he DIDN t do what he said. I m not looking to have this conv in order to go back to the A, I just want to know how to handle the conv and what to expect and look for red flags.

 

The red flag is his wedding ring. Right now you feel like you have some power. This is your head playing tricks on you.

 

You think you ended it, he always initiates contact, and therefore you're in control. Reality is he's still married. In his mind, you speaking to him means it's not over and he's still in the driver's seat.

 

Any discussions you have will lead you to believe you and he have a plan and that this is now different. It won't be different because he will still be married. At first, you'll feel good about it, as if you gained an understanding and now are an equal partner in this plan to be together.

 

Then you'll realize you actually had a hand in deceiving yourself and feel worse than you ever have.

[Susmay]

...

 

Now, for all of u who had this big big talk about everything, which are the smart questions I should ask? How should this conversation go?

i need examples of smart questions!

 

Thank u:)

 

Ok I don t wanna be rude here, but unless u want to answer to what I actually asked and try to do just that and be supportive, try not to reply at all.

I made it clear that I want to have this conv and I JUST NEED ADVISE ON HOW TO HANDLE IT. I know u look after me and I appreciate it, but I just need advise on what I posted.

 

My suggestions for smart questions for you to ask him:

 

1. Are you and your wife planning another baby, if not how and when are you going to let her know that you're not going to be involved in conceiving another child.

2. When and how are you going to let your wife and kids know you are leaving her/them?

3. When and how are you going to let the rest of your family know you and your wife are breaking up?

4. When and how are you letting them all know you are involved with Dela?

5. Which lawyer have you chosen to handle the divorce/separation or financial side of things. How many times have you seen this lawyer and when is the next appointment?

 

My opinion is that unless and until the wife is on board with her marriage break-up, then nothing will come of your relationship with him, other than perhaps a continuing affair.

[Dela]

Well, this has been "fun"

He contacted me last night and started talking....

So here it goes

-I want to be happy with my life, I don t really know what that means and there may be many ways (??)

-I don t see myself jumping from a relationship to another (apparently it s better to cheat the w than start a relationship after a marriage-wtf)

-I don t know how I will be if I break up with her, it s hard to know what needs will I have in a situation that I don't know what a goons happen to me

-emotionally I m far away from her now and I told her this, from here to separation there are other stages (wtf)

-I initially wanted for u to be my sex buddy, then things got complicated, we fell in love, then the baby happened and in the end all this drama of a very promising relationship but impossible

-I don t know what I want from u, I would say nothing, but here I am so it contradicts that

-no matters what happens to us I still have to fix a problem at home that s only mine(was talking about separation)

-I can t put u on a plan in my life if I don't know what is going to be and I don t want us to live with the hope of such plan

-it seems like I don t represent anything in the absence of expectations (WTF!!!) , I am something for what I want from me, we can t talk about expectations because u have no guarantee because it s possible that things don t happen or don t happen on time

-most of what u offer is coming from expectations (he has a problem that I have expectations)

-I have no expectations from u, but not because it s ok like this for me, but because I don t want to do this forever

-u are someone I don t wanna give up on, I have no life expectations with u, not more than it is now or what was ( then why the **** say something different all this time?????)

-I was talking about D because it s where I m heading (LOL)

-I am heading to ending a relationship that is no longer what I need (bla bla)

-sometimes I want something, sometimes I want something else, that s why I m contradicting myself all the time

-I can t "afford" to want something from u, I can t even say it. It seems like I will have to choose but not with u around

 

It s not all of it but u get the point. I don t know why he always does this, one time he wants something with me, other time he doesn't ...

I told him we should end all communication and not to contact me anymore...

[elaine567]

I told him we should end all communication and not to contact me anymore...

 

Good idea, he is a first class waffler and has no idea what he really wants to do.

 

I think though he is pretty clear that you do not figure high up in his life going forward.

 

I suspect when you bow out of his life, he will be having another baby with his wife and he will be looking a around for another OW - a "sex buddy" with less "expectations."

[Dela]

Good idea, he is a first class waffler and has no idea what he really wants to do.

 

I think though he is pretty clear that you do not figure high up in his life going forward.

 

I suspect when you bow out of his life, he will be having another baby with his wife and he will be looking a around for another OW - a "sex buddy" with less "expectations."

 

Thanks... I have no idea why ke kept talking about divorce and us... I even told him"u sould have said this sooner. Would have spare me of many things..."

But well, every week he kept saying a different story, so who the hell knows?

It really bothered me how bothered he is because i have expectations. He even said "why can t we live what is to live and if there comes room for expectations then we see what to do?"

So, shortly, he would like us to stay the same and me not to expect anything.

I am angry and sad but relieved. I told u i needed to hear what he has to say. I have all the info now to know where i stand. And i stand nowhere!!!

BREAKING NC WAS A TERRIBLE IDEA!!!

[elaine567]

BREAKING NC WAS A TERRIBLE IDEA!!!

 

Maybe, but at least now you KNOW where you stand, no ifs, no buts, no maybes, you now KNOW, and that will be a lot easier for you going forward.

[m4p]

Big hug to you Dela...

 

You did what you need to do, and you heard his answer. It is evident that he is going nowhere with you so stop wasting your time, really.

 

Hopefully this pain will at least be worth it if it results in you being determined to stay NC this time round.

 

Hang in there!!

[Satu]

As I said on your other thread:

 

 

"Stop trying to drink from that cup. It is empty."

[Gloria_Smellons]

I agree with everything Elaine said.

 

You know now, for definite that he has no intention of changing a thing. (And by the way that whole conversation seemed like he was using as many words as possible to say absolutely nothing... personally I hate that. Don't use 4,728 words when 3 - I'm not leaving - will do).

You also know now, for definite, that that isn't what you want.

 

So you know now what you have to do.

[HappyAgain2014]

It's clear he's staying married. The best thing to do make up your mind this is over and he needs to stay out of your life. Then you make the decision to move on and stop thinking of him.

 

Don't think of this as NC. Think of this as over. Over means you only move forward instead of torturing yourself thinking of what ifs.

 

You don't really want him. You wanted an idealized version of him. Your conversation showed who he really is. Leave him to manage his manipulative, victim mentality alone.

 

He will find another OW soon. You can find peace and hopefully happiness.

[Ms. Faust]

Typing on my phone AND breastfeeding, so please ignore spelling and grammar... Dela, you (and I believe many AP) need to look at this from his point of view to get a better idea. This is all conjecture, but considering how common it is, I would say I am not far off:

 

He's a married man.

He has what... A minimum of 2, possibly 3 kids?

Does he have a house? Then he possibly has a mortgage... An even bigger possibility it is underwater. Is he renting? Not a property owner, then money may be tighter.

He and his wife have cars? Possibly decent cars? Then they have at least one, if not two car notes.

Is she a sahm? Then the finances are on him. Is she not? Ok, good possibility they are financing their lifestyle with both their income.

 

Personal loans, LoC, credit cards, misc debt.... All that would have to be split.

Sell the house, lose a car, goodbye to half his retirement, AAAANNND the biggie: Child support and maybe alimony ALONG WITH having to support himself.

 

And that is just the financial aspect. This is not including the mental, emotional, and the logistics (mainly with the kids). Issues such as school districts will suddenly come into play. Then therapy to help kiddies cope with suddenly having two households... And back again to money.

 

Then another thing: waitaminute. This MM... He is suddenly free. He has nothing tying him down. He is free to pursue a relationship with you... But no need to rush things. Can't add more kids, because he may not be able to afford it. Or maybe he wants to enjoy the life on his own for a while.

 

But if he goes as far as divorce, then why jump into another relationship? This would be a whole new beginning for him. He could leave the past (bad marriage) behind. I hate to say it, but YOU are part of that past, as YOU are part of that old marriage.

 

I do believe there are MM who will leave for love and go be with their OW.

Is he one of them?

 

The fact is, divorce is going to be very, very difficult. This is not a decision that is going to be made on a whim or within a conversation. It is an atomic bomb to his family and his current way of life. So of COURSE he is going to waffle.... Of COURSE he doesn't want to just jump into another relationship... In fact, in a men's divorce forum I visit they are highly discouraged to do dating, and to break up with any side "cupcakes".

 

Do not over estimate the importance you may have in his life, whether you once had his baby or not. I am not saying he doesn't love you.... I will go so far as to say he does... Whether he finds his love for you worth it to leave his family and start a new life with you is the question.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Ms. Faust

[elaine567]

Typing on my phone AND breastfeeding, so please ignore spelling and grammar... Dela, you (and I believe many AP) need to look at this from his point of view to get a better idea. This is all conjecture, but considering how common it is, I would say I am not far off:

 

He's a married man.

He has what... A minimum of 2, possibly 3 kids?

Does he have a house? Then he possibly has a mortgage... An even bigger possibility it is underwater. Is he renting? Not a property owner, then money may be tighter.

He and his wife have cars? Possibly decent cars? Then they have at least one, if not two car notes.

Is she a sahm? Then the finances are on him. Is she not? Ok, good possibility they are financing their lifestyle with both their income.

 

Personal loans, LoC, credit cards, misc debt.... All that would have to be split.

Sell the house, lose a car, goodbye to half his retirement, AAAANNND the biggie: Child support and maybe alimony ALONG WITH having to support himself.

 

And that is just the financial aspect. This is not including the mental, emotional, and the logistics (mainly with the kids). Issues such as school districts will suddenly come into play. Then therapy to help kiddies cope with suddenly having two households... And back again to money.

 

Then another thing: waitaminute. This MM... He is suddenly free. He has nothing tying him down. He is free to pursue a relationship with you... But no need to rush things. Can't add more kids, because he may not be able to afford it. Or maybe he wants to enjoy the life on his own for a while.

 

But if he goes as far as divorce, then why jump into another relationship? This would be a whole new beginning for him. He could leave the past (bad marriage) behind. I hate to say it, but YOU are part of that past, as YOU are part of that old marriage.

 

I do believe there are MM who will leave for love and go be with their OW.

Is he one of them?

 

The fact is, divorce is going to be very, very difficult. This is not a decision that is going to be made on a whim or within a conversation. It is an atomic bomb to his family and his current way of life. So of COURSE he is going to waffle.... Of COURSE he doesn't want to just jump into another relationship... In fact, in a men's divorce forum I visit they are highly discouraged to do dating, and to break up with any side "cupcakes".

 

Do not over estimate the importance you may have in his life, whether you once had his baby or not. I am not saying he doesn't love you.... I will go so far as to say he does... Whether he finds his love for you worth it to leave his family and start a new life with you is the question.

 

Read today's update.

[Ms. Faust]

Read today's update.

 

Uhm... I did? That is why I addressed specifically the possibility of why he is waffling, him being unsure... I went mostly into finances but I think the key is when he said he doesn't want to jump from one relationship into another followed by she "has expectations".

[Dela]

Thank u all for your answers.

He texted me twice today, i didn t answer. Disn t even open that app. The hell with it...

[Dela]

Uhm... I did? That is why I addressed specifically the possibility of why he is waffling, him being unsure... I went mostly into finances but I think the key is when he said he doesn't want to jump from one relationship into another followed by she "has expectations".

 

 

 

U got it right. Thanks for ur post.

I understand what u said and u re right. It s not that easy and mang things are involved. But then, why the **** string me along until now being confused and bla bla just to tell me now another version of the story(similar to others about this subject)

And keep in mind that while we had this conv he still mentioned 3 times that he k ows what he has to do and that he will do it(divorce).

[Ms. Faust]

Thank u all for your answers.

He texted me twice today, i didn t answer. Disn t even open that app. The hell with it...

 

Can I ask do you have an idea what you are doing from here on out? Previously you went NC and then broke it because you had "unfinished business" or unfinished things to say to him. Are you going to continue talking to him and see where it goes, go NC (but say your last piece for closure) or just continue on as the OW?

[whatatangledweb]

U got it right. Thanks for ur post.

I understand what u said and u re right. It s not that easy and mang things are involved. But then, why the **** string me along until now being confused and bla bla just to tell me now another version of the story(similar to others about this subject)

And keep in mind that while we had this conv he still mentioned 3 times that he k ows what he has to do and that he will do it(divorce).

 

The MM future fake. They do it for many reasons. He mentioned divorce three times but he was also clear in saying he was not going from one relationship to another. He may end up divorced which I doubt, but he unfortunately will end it with you if that happens. I think he doesn't end it now because he doesn't know how you will react such as telling his wife. I'm sorry but there is no future with you and him.

[Dela]

Can I ask do you have an idea what you are doing from here on out? Previously you went NC and then broke it because you had "unfinished business" or unfinished things to say to him. Are you going to continue talking to him and see where it goes, go NC (but say your last piece for closure) or just continue on as the OW?

 

 

 

No, not continue as OW. I think that s why he was pissed about my expectations, because well, u can t have an OW with expectations and i made it clear that i m not the OW anymore.

I told him to stop any contact but i see he doesn t get it. It s like my words mean nothing.

I told him that i m out and he can do whatever he wants to do and if he ll be available and want the same things i do, he knows how to find me.

After i said this he called me and asked "why ru talking stupid things?" Lol

I told him again over the phone the same things and also that i m 26 and not planning to spend my next years waiting for him to raise his kids as i swallow my wishes and be alone without kids and waiting for him to come for an hour to see me.

I don t feel good at all but i am a little relieved. No more unfinished business i guess...

[Gloria_Smellons]

I told him to stop any contact but i see he doesn t get it. It s like my words mean nothing.

I told him that i m out and he can do whatever he wants to do and if he ll be available and want the same things i do, he knows how to find me.

After i said this he called me and asked "why ru talking stupid things?" Lol

I told him again over the phone the same things and also that i m 26 and not planning to spend my next years waiting for him to raise his kids as i swallow my wishes and be alone without kids and waiting for him to come for an hour to see me.

I don t feel good at all but i am a little relieved. No more unfinished business i guess...

 

No, don't guess, you KNOW.

 

He's made it very clear where he stands, and you've made it clear where you stand.

 

Now crack on with moving on. Are you considering blocking him from contacting you since he doesn't seem to leave you alone based on your requests.

[Ms. Faust]

No, not continue as OW. I think that s why he was pissed about my expectations, because well, u can t have an OW with expectations and i made it clear that i m not the OW anymore.

I told him to stop any contact but i see he doesn t get it. It s like my words mean nothing.

I told him that i m out and he can do whatever he wants to do and if he ll be available and want the same things i do, he knows how to find me.

After i said this he called me and asked "why ru talking stupid things?" Lol

I told him again over the phone the same things and also that i m 26 and not planning to spend my next years waiting for him to raise his kids as i swallow my wishes and be alone without kids and waiting for him to come for an hour to see me.

I don t feel good at all but i am a little relieved. No more unfinished business i guess...

 

Methinks he wants you to want him.

[ladydesigner]

No, not continue as OW.

 

I told him to stop any contact but i see he doesn t get it. It s like my words mean nothing.

 

 

After i said this he called me and asked "why ru talking stupid things?" Lol

I told him again over the phone the same things and also that i m 26 and not planning to spend my next years waiting for him to raise his kids as i swallow my wishes and be alone without kids and waiting for him to come for an hour to see me.

 

Dela focus on NC and stick to it. Do not say another word to him if you are DONE. You say that he doesn't get it, that you told him to stop contact, yet respond when he called to ask "why ru talking stupid things?"

 

Any response from you even a simple "hi" keeps him engaged with you and lets him know you will still talk to him after you said no more contact.

 

You need to go radio silence for YOU if that is what you want.

 

I'm sorry for the position you are in. If you can somehow think of it as breaking an addiction, it probably feels similar to that and is hard to break the cycles.