Caught wife lying, is this cheating?

[aliveagain]

The best way to get dirt on the inside of your jeans is to have it rub off your feet as your rushing to put your pants back on. You have a dirty one my friend in more ways then one.

[Marc878]

She's banking on you backing down. Then you'll live the rest of the marriage on her terms. Her doormat to do with as she pleases. I'd get tested for STD's to be on the safe side.

[Morro72]

Some helpful English translations (Cheater -> English):

And one I missed the first time through:

 

"He's having trouble at home" -> "He's having trouble at home because he keeps having sex with women he's not married to"

 

Says she, pulling up her pants and brushing the dirt off: "Yes, I see what you mean about having sex with women you're not married to. I wasn't sure what you meant by this at first but now I understand."

[jen1447]

I think all the plans and warnings and cautionary tales are a bit premature as all we know at this point, based on OP's most recent post, is that he called her bluff and he's going thru with the divorce. OP seems to know what he's doing but I'd be curious to know what type of divorce you plan to pursue (fault/no-fault). If it's a simple no-fault divorce, you don't necessarily need any (more) evidence and it will likely just proceed as a negotiation to divide assets.

 

Also ppl tend to overestimate the relative 'power' of the average line officer, so I wouldn't worry too much about him. He'll likely be more worried about making sure he doesn't step in sh*t and jeopardize his job and career than 'getting' his GF's husband.

 

edit, also (and I feel like a broken record about this lol), watch out what you do with any VARs. Recording conversations surreptitiously is a felony in many states, and you particularly wouldn't want to do that right in front of someone who likely knows that law. Check out one-party or two-party consent for audio recording with your legislature.

Edited August 18, 2015 by jen1447

[Chi townD]

 

edit, also (and I feel like a broken record about this lol), watch out what you do with any VARs. Recording conversations surreptitiously is a felony in many states, and you particularly wouldn't want to do that right in front of someone who likely knows that law. Check out one-party or two-party consent for audio recording with your legislature.

 

 

 

I already warned him about the VAR in the car.

 

 

As for carrying a VAR on his person OPENLY. I've seen too many cases where the woman wants to the guy out of the house and will make false claims to get him out. Once cops informs the guy that he has to leave for the evening, the next day, she's out at the courthouse getting a restraining order. And she'll most likely get it because NOW there's a record of a domestic at that residence. Come time for a divorce, they will establish that the man no longer lives at the residence (thus abandoning the martial home), so she'll maintain the martial home and he'll have to pay his part of the mortgage on top of his own rent and child support instead of splitting the martial assets 50/50, selling the martial home and splitting the principal if they're not upside down. He definitely SHOULD NOT leave that house until the divorce! If you think I'm just pulling that scenario out of thin air, think again. This stuff actually does happen.

 

 

And even if the law states that you can't record the conversation without permission. She can turn to you and say, you don't have my permission to record me. Okay, then you can say, "Alright then, I guess this conversation is over." and walk away. You can't get in trouble by saying nothing at all. You can't get in trouble by walking away. She can't bait you into a fight if you're not there.

 

 

Another thing I forgot to mention OP, if your wife calls your number ALWAYS let it go to voicemail! Listen to it later! If she leaves a voicemail message, then she KNOWS she's being recorded in order to leave that message. Therefore, it's legal by any standard.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Chi townD

[jen1447]

And even if the law states that you can't record the conversation without permission. She can turn to you and say, you don't have my permission to record me. Okay, then you can say, "Alright then, I guess this conversation is over." and walk away. You can't get in trouble by saying nothing at all. You can't get in trouble by walking away. She can't bait you into a fight if you're not there.

 

The two-party consent law generally requires explicit consent, not implied or tacit, meaning that you can't just assume you had consent, even if it was obvious. You have to ask and get permission.

 

Your hypothetical scenario's not quite accurate either - if the wife called police for a domestic assist, they'd have to observe some crime or indication that a crime had been committed on his part to remove him (and/or arrest him). Just calling and making an accusation doesn't suffice. They may suggest he spend the night elsewhere but they can't compel him to leave his own property if he's committed no crime. If that were to happen and then she filed for a PPO, it would in all likelihood be denied due to a lack of supporting evidence. You can't just get PPOs willy-nilly, you have to show reasons why you fear for your life or safety, and a report of a police run where no criminal activity was found will not only not do that, it'll possibly even show unreliable circumstantial character on the part of the wife.

 

I'm not just making this up - live very close to this world.

 

~

 

First things first tho anyway, we should hear what OP decides he's gonna do before we tell him what he should do and how to do it.

[Chi townD]

 

Your hypothetical scenario's not quite accurate either - if the wife called police for a domestic assist, they'd have to observe some crime or indication that a crime had been committed on his part to remove him (and/or arrest him). Just calling and making an accusation doesn't suffice. They may suggest he spend the night elsewhere but they can't compel him to leave his own property if he's committed no crime. If that were to happen and then she filed for a PPO, it would in all likelihood be denied due to a lack of supporting evidence. You can't just get PPOs willy-nilly, you have to show reasons why you fear for your life or safety, and a report of a police run where no criminal activity was found will not only not do that, it'll possibly even show unreliable circumstantial character on the part of the wife.

 

 

 

~

 

First things first tho anyway, we should hear what OP decides he's gonna do before we tell him what he should do and how to do it.

 

 

 

 

Uh huh....you watch basketball? Tell that to this guy.

 

 

How a False Domestic-Violence Charge Ruined An NBA Career | National Review Online

[CarrieT]

if the wife called police for a domestic assist, they'd have to observe some crime or indication that a crime had been committed on his part to remove him (and/or arrest him). Just calling and making an accusation doesn't suffice.

Absolutely wrong.

 

My BFF - a woman! - was arrested because her boyfriend called the police and claimed domestic violence. Nothing was observed by the police. It was all based on He Said/She said.

 

She spent the night in jail and had to spend in excess of $10k in lawyers to finally get the charges dismissed.

[SycamoreCircle]

Uh huh....you watch basketball? Tell that to this guy.

 

 

How a False Domestic-Violence Charge Ruined An NBA Career | National Review Online

Jeez...makes you almost not want to get involved with people, period.

[jen1447]

Uh huh....you watch basketball? Tell that to this guy.

 

 

How a False Domestic-Violence Charge Ruined An NBA Career | National Review Online

I never said it never happens, but it's not typical. Finding an anecdotal example of a deviation isn't hard and it's unconvincing in terms of an assertion of universality.

 

Absolutely wrong.

 

My BFF - a woman! - was arrested because her boyfriend called the police and claimed domestic violence. Nothing was observed by the police. It was all based on He Said/She said.

 

She spent the night in jail and had to spend in excess of $10k in lawyers to finally get the charges dismissed.

 

There must be more to the story then - simply making a complaint doesn't result in an automatic arrest or finding of guilt. If it did, fraudulent domestic abuse reports would be the scourge of our society. (My guess is she actually hit him and satisfied the requirements of the law. There's always at least two sides to every story and guilty parties rarely share them.)

[Chi townD]

I never said it never happens, but it's not typical. Finding an anecdotal example of a deviation isn't hard and it's unconvincing in terms of an assertion of universality.

 

That's just ONE story. There's more. But I chose this one considering that this guy is high profile it's easy to track due to his celebrity. He was arrested stepping out of the car. Immediately. Thrown into jail. LATER, the charges were drop due to lack of evidence. Meaning there was NO EVIDENCE! Yet, he was thrown in jail.

 

 

She gets a RO. He gets arraigned and posts bail and goes to a hotel. She has him arrested AGAIN for threats and violation of the RO. The cops show up and slap him in cuffs and haul him off to jail. Only LATER to discover that CCTV shows he never left the hotel. No outgoing calls from the hotel, they could have checked his cell phone at the scene to ensure that he didn't call the accuser AND they discover that the "threating" emails didn't come from any device he had. The PI address for that email came from the accuser! Yet, he was arrested without ANY investigation without any proof that a crime was committed.

 

 

It happens more than you want to believe. But, I digress. I think we need to hear from the OP and see what he wants to do.

[CarrieT]

There must be more to the story then - simply making a complaint doesn't result in an automatic arrest or finding of guilt. If it did, fraudulent domestic abuse reports would be the scourge of our society. (My guess is she actually hit him and satisfied the requirements of the law. There's always at least two sides to every story and guilty parties rarely share them.)

 

There is - of course - more to the story. She didn't hit him. They were arguing, yes. He picked up their child and tried to take the baby with him. My friend stood in front of the door to keep her child from being removed from the premises. There was a struggle over the child. When he got outside, he called the police. My friend was actually arrested for felony entrapment.

 

Of course there are two sides to the story, but ultimately, the charges were dropped because the BF's family (his aunt and father!) testified that he has a tendency towards exaggeration. But my friend still had to pay the lawyers to get her record expunged and during the process, she was kept from her child until the case was settled.

 

My point was that the police arrested my friend on His testimony alone and that the police never did witness what occurred. None of us did. But we know the outcome. My friend was exonerated (and $10k poorer) and the child's father has now all but disappeared with even his family unsure why he won't see his child.

[jen1447]

That's just ONE story. There's more. But I chose this one considering that this guy is high profile it's easy to track due to his celebrity. He was arrested stepping out of the car. Immediately. Thrown into jail. LATER, the charges were drop due to lack of evidence. Meaning there was NO EVIDENCE! Yet, he was thrown in jail.

 

 

She gets a RO. He gets arraigned and posts bail and goes to a hotel. She has him arrested AGAIN for threats and violation of the RO. The cops show up and slap him in cuffs and haul him off to jail. Only LATER to discover that CCTV shows he never left the hotel. No outgoing calls from the hotel, they could have checked his cell phone at the scene to ensure that he didn't call the accuser AND they discover that the "threating" emails didn't come from any device he had. The PI address for that email came from the accuser! Yet, he was arrested without ANY investigation without any proof that a crime was committed.

 

 

It happens more than you want to believe. But, I digress. I think we need to hear from the OP and see what he wants to do.

 

You don't really need to convince me of that story (altho it reads like an editorial with the author grinding an ax about "feminism-fueled legal netherworlds"), but it still doesn't indicate a trend toward false arrest and prosecution for domestic abuse in general. If you can show me some data that does, I'll consider it.

 

In OP's case, if his wife called 911 and screamed that he was about to shoot her to death, chances are indeed very good that the police would arrive 'hard,' being as they have little choice but to take things at face value initially. That'd be unfortunate for him but the near certainty is that after the initial situation had been secured, the facts would come out and it'd be the wife who was going to jail, not the OP. You can disbelieve that all you like I guess, but the simple reality is that 'frame jobs' et al simply don't happen in the real world very much, and it's prudent to trust in the eventual accurate determinations of law enforcement.

[jen1447]

There is - of course - more to the story. She didn't hit him. They were arguing, yes. He picked up their child and tried to take the baby with him. My friend stood in front of the door to keep her child from being removed from the premises. There was a struggle over the child. When he got outside, he called the police. My friend was actually arrested for felony entrapment.

 

Of course there are two sides to the story, but ultimately, the charges were dropped because the BF's family (his aunt and father!) testified that he has a tendency towards exaggeration. But my friend still had to pay the lawyers to get her record expunged and during the process, she was kept from her child until the case was settled.

 

My point was that the police arrested my friend on His testimony alone and that the police never did witness what occurred. None of us did. But we know the outcome. My friend was exonerated (and $10k poorer) and the child's father has now all but disappeared with even his family unsure why he won't see his child.

 

That sounds much more complicated than a simple domestic dispute, and personally when kids are involved I think it's good that law enforcement takes no chances. (I assume that determining what really happened was no simple task.)

 

One thing I don't understand - if the charges were dropped, why did your friend have to pay to get a record expunged? There would be no record if the charges were dropped.

[CarrieT]

One thing I don't understand - if the charges were dropped, why did your friend have to pay to get a record expunged? There would be no record if the charges were dropped.

My mis-statement.

 

She didn't pay to get a record expunged - she paid lawyers to fight the charges. The DA ultimately dropped the charges and her record is now clean, but that doesn't just happen without lawyers to do the bidding... And *that* cost her $10k.

[Chi townD]

but it still doesn't indicate a trend toward false arrest and prosecution for domestic abuse in general. If you can show me some data that does, I'll consider it.

 

 

Okay....

 

 

False Accusations of Domestic Violence, By the Numbers » SAVE: Stop Abusive and Violent Environments

 

 

Okay. So, 700,000 arrest made annually for false DV. And OVER one million RO's served for trivial or false claims. ANNUALLY. I would consider that a trend.

 

 

Also, 32 states that say DV includes being afraid, fearful, apprehensive, or experiencing emotional distress. Over half the United States.

[jen1447]

My mis-statement.

 

She didn't pay to get a record expunged - she paid lawyers to fight the charges. The DA ultimately dropped the charges and her record is now clean, but that doesn't just happen without lawyers to do the bidding... And *that* cost her $10k.

 

Makes sense, thanks.

[jen1447]

Okay....

 

 

False Accusations of Domestic Violence, By the Numbers » SAVE: Stop Abusive and Violent Environments

 

 

Okay. So, 700,000 arrest made annually for false DV. And OVER one million RO's served for trivial or false claims. ANNUALLY. I would consider that a trend.

 

 

Also, 32 states that say DV includes being afraid, fearful, apprehensive, or experiencing emotional distress. Over half the United States.

 

Thanks for doing some digging there. I note tho that the publisher of that info, SAVE (Stop Abusive and Violent Environments), frequently cites itself as sources of its conclusions, such as the 700,000 false arrests and 1 million "trivial" or false restraining orders. Unfortunately SAVE seems to be of questionable repute in some circles, being associated for example with a Mail Order Bride company that's lobbied to weaken immigrant women victims' VAWA rights in the US. See Bride trafficking company founder using anti-violence group to lobby against abused immigrants.

 

I think I'd like a more reputable source, and preferably one that cites studies conducted by disinterested third parties.

[Chi townD]

Thanks for doing some digging there. I note tho that the publisher of that info, SAVE (Stop Abusive and Violent Environments), frequently cites itself as sources of its conclusions, such as the 700,000 false arrests and 1 million "trivial" or false restraining orders. Unfortunately SAVE seems to be of questionable repute in some circles, being associated for example with a Mail Order Bride company that's lobbied to weaken immigrant women victims' VAWA rights in the US. See Bride trafficking company founder using anti-violence group to lobby against abused immigrants.

 

I think I'd like a more reputable source, and preferably one that cites studies conducted by disinterested third parties.

 

 

Yeah, they thought you would say that that's why they probably gave you references for each point. For people that are nay Sayers and don't want to believe that this is a problem.

[jen1447]

Yeah, they thought you would say that that's why they probably gave you references for each point. For people that are nay Sayers and don't want to believe that this is a problem.

 

I don't understand ....the references point to their own publications.

[Chi townD]

I don't understand ....the references point to their own publications.

 

 

 

 

And if you open up those references, they open to a PDF file for that article to which they provide references to that article, like referencing the Women's Survey from the Department of Justice.

 

 

For instance, the reference to Expanding the definition of DV. They will list the definition for each state and where you can find it. Like, Arkansas the definition can be found in citation Title 9 Family Law Subtitle 2 Domestic Relations Chapter 15 Domestic Abuse 9-15-103. How did I know where to find this? I read the article.

 

 

They also reference the Family Violence Prevention and Service Act, Violence against Women's Act, the CDC...blah...blah..blah...

 

 

Reputable sources and not their opinion.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Chi townD

[Southern Sun]

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this timeline.

 

OP, you posted this yesterday, correct?

 

I admire you standing firm, however your wife isn't telling you anything because she simply doesn't believe you yet.

 

All you've done at this point is make some threats and moved into the guest room. I mean, there hasn't been time for anything else. I'm not trying to call your bluff or say that you won't follow through, but that is exactly what SHE is doing right now.

 

And the fact is, you may not want to do all those things once everything settles. I don't know you, perhaps you will want to move forward regardless. But it seems you are doing a lot of posturing and she knows it.

 

Can you consider a different kind of approach without the threats? No more "do this, tell me this, show me this, OR WE'RE THROUGH!!"? I don't know if that's possible with the state you two are in, but it's the only way you are going to be able to have any sort of breakthrough at this point. As another poster said, maintaining her lie is looking like her best bet right now. You are not in any way showing her that telling the truth might pan out for her.

 

And hell, it's okay if you can't forgive this. I'm not saying you're obligated to. I just wanted to suggest another perspective.

[Clay]

I agree with Southern. I would bet she is counting on you to fold. Maybe a different approach is better. I personally like the approach of less talk and more action. I think more people really get it when its taken care of that way. If your serious on divorcing her I would get the papers drawn up and hand them to her. I would not discuss anything other than the divorce if at all possible.

 

C

[strugglinghubby]

So after me packing my clothes into suitcases and moving in to the other room last night she finally caved. Gave me her phone and admitted that they made out the night at the park, kissing and groping, but nothing further. Also admitted that since then, and our chat about doing whatever it takes to fix our marriage she's seen him twice again in cars outside her work last week. More kissing but nothing else

 

I read through the txt messages, not all were recovered but enough to get what's being said. He's telling her the sexual things he wants to do to her, she's saying she misses him and can't wait to see him. Said that he makes her horny by even just seeing her, said she had to go to the toilet to clean up as she got so wet. The messages between them talking about that I'm on to them and how they can sneak around to not get caught.

 

After she came clean she said she's realised what she's done and will do anything to try and make us work. Get rid of her phone, break all contact with him, give up her training etc. I don't know what to do, I'm torn at the moment. I want to try and make it work but I don't know whether I can come to terms with this, especially the part about her still seeing him and being intimate after we us our chat and we committed to being open and honest, and doing whatever it takes to fix it, plus she swore on our little ones life that nothing was happening and that she had no feelings for him.

 

Lastly, she did tell me the OM has a secondary phone that he uses to contact her, so obviously I asked my wife if she thought she was the only one. She said she know now, he probably has others on the side as well. I told her he recognised her vulnerabilities and played on them, that's how this works. And that regardless of that fact she still made the conscious decisions to do what she did.

 

I sent the OM a txt message last night, it read: I hope it was worth it you prick, that's one marriage and family you've had a part in tearing apart. Let's hope Ash (his wife, they have a 1 year old together) doesn't find out what you've been up to, I'd hate to see another marriage and family destroyed over thist as well

[Marc878]

I'd download all the deleted texts. They were deleted for a reason. I bet there's more to this story. If you have the phone it's easy. I'd send copies to his wife. I'd also disclose to his wife. Why not share the pain? Or better yet have your wife fo it. Payment for what she put you through.