Inexperienced guy in need of guidelines (Updated)

[ZA Dater]

You don't have to be a jerk or be nice..

 

Your friends are giving you the RIGHT advice. And, that is NOT to be so concealing about things. Just say them as they are... people respect straight up people.

 

Once I started to speak up with how I felt. It improved many relationships, professional relationships and even ones with my friends and family. Sometimes, we as people need to HEAR what someone else wants or is going through.

 

If you want to work on one thing. I would say start working on being more expressive.

 

I agree with all of this but having said that if one has walked around with rejection for years its extremely tough to open up about that, even to close friends. As I said somewhere else its ok to ask for help or even an opinion but its really tough to open up.

 

When you do open up, as I did, the side effect is you may get some help from friends etc.

 

Depending on your circumstances opening up may actually make you feel a lot better.

[bcnguy]

Really interesting post, thanks for taking the time to type it.

 

 

The parts which resonated strongest for me I have highlighted. From my perspective its near to impossible to heal from constant rejection in the dating arena. In reality the only really viable solution appears to remove myself completely from the dating arena so to speak.

 

 

I loathe myself to some degree but I don't harbour much resentment towards women, probably because I cannot change the very fabric of what women like.

 

 

Bold point three is particularly relevant for me, I am a passive person but the latest bout of rejection lead to exactly what you typed above, I had and still have the tendency to get angry about small things.

 

 

Over time I have been proven to be better off when I just apply analytical thinking, there was ONE exception where both merged and that was with the person I keep going on about here, call her K. Analytically she was/is the perfect match, emotionally the perfect match so I sailed along on the great huge hope, I then got smacked to the ground about as hard as bungee jumper with a snapped cable. The problem which nobody understands is each time I see her I just feel something, no sure what it is but maybe its the merging of emotional and analytical liking.

 

 

Each time (these don't happen often enough) I spend time with her I re motivated, my mind is stimulated and a part of me says "you can do this", but the reality knocks, the reality is she wont even friend zone me and I end up with an emotional "hangover" which lasts for weeks on end, accompanied by the aforementioned short temperedness.

 

 

Improving, friend sent me for a makeover, nice gesture but to be honest rather meaningless, I didn't feel any better, if anything all I felt and still feel is pitied. A new hair style and clothes aren't suddenly going to make me more attractive to K mentioned above.

 

 

I am often accused of being negative but how is being realistic deemed to be negative, same friend is now trying to set me up with a model, someone most of the guys on this forum would go mad over, me, I am not interested. I have spent time with her and there isn't collision of analytical and emotional attraction. People will say "oh go try" but for me if there is no attraction to the persons personality then there is no attraction at all, as shocking as that may sound.

 

 

Perhaps I have been wrong all these years, perhaps I traded too heavily on how nice I can be and neglected everything else, perhaps I resent that my worth is in how I dress and how my hair looks rather than in my personality, perhaps I resent years spent studying with no friends at all, perhaps if I had I'd be a better more attractive person for people like K.

 

 

The reality is and I don't really care who doesn't agree with me, its next to impossible at the age of 31 to acquire experience, EVERY female is going to want to know why one hasn't dated, inexperience smells from miles away and ultimately I have reached the stage where I have simply run out of any tangible options. Clubs don't interest me, nor do dating sites which proved to be an unmitigated disaster these past 7 years.

 

 

Once again those who have been lucky to enough that feeling of going on a special date with someone they like, cherish that.

 

 

I am out.

Well, I don't want to help derail this thread so I'll try to add some general perspective to my response (wish me luck cos I will need it).

 

Given, your post would require almost a treaty and I don't think I am the most qualified for it. I will only try to give you a bit of an overview on general considerations, I would take -or think I would- if I were you. So I don't pretend to be right, it'll be just my opinion.

 

Firstly, I think you would greatly benefit from the guidance of a therapist/counselor. I have the feeling it could do wonders for you...with the right attitude, of course (i.e the therapist 'guides' while doing the hard work is our job).

 

To start It's good to know that you don't resent women, but it's important you actively work to challenge any reasoning that supports the feeling of resenting an entire gender. I don't advocate repression to stop it, I simply call for understanding. Look, if I put myself in their shoes -so to speak- with all the things I've seen, I'm sure a few bad guys would've hurt me or at least given me reasons to get hurt...but here is the thing, when a person/situation hurts our feelings, we sometimes forget we still have agency (self-control). Our mindset plays a big role in how we read a given situation. The ability to be reasonable depends on overall well being (i.e self-esteem, self-worth, etc). When those fail, people get hurt deeper and the blaming starts, fundamentally it goes on themselves at some level (self-criticism)...and more openly, to others as a relieve/escape.

 

Regarding the emotional reactions you mentioned. They usually stem from pathological beliefs. In short, emotional resonance is the manifestation of whatever old/unresolved 'problem' that a person has stuffed inside. A burst of anger can be triggered by some minor thing in the present because there is nothing like a time stamp in the limbic system for our emotional baggage (for more google emotional resonance). To dismantle these beliefs you need to challenge them, but first you gotta identify them. The cool thing is a lot of their power over ourselves gets lost as soon we spot them. Because in the open -for an adult- it's logic seems too silly to fool us.

 

After all this, let's mention some typical problems/POV that could be worth to explore/tackle. One is the judgmental -right and wrong- approach to things. Which involves ego and leads to criticism (esp... the harmful and earlier mentioned self-criticism). To fight it, we need to decouple our self-worth as a person from depending on social status, looks, dress or whatever other quality/performance cos that reasoning is plain wrong and very harmful. Nothing external conferes you worth. Thus, you deserve to be happy on your own right for the very reason that you are alive. This is key, given that our self-esteem constantly fluctuates according to our perception to fairness, and how this matches our expectations of ourselves.

 

Another habit that needs to die, comes from self-victimization which is propelled by negativity. A person who falls prey of such dishonest POV treats herself as some passive entity with no agency. In fact, she is convinced that she is doomed to failure. But it's also a way to escape from responsibilities, making it right to give up even before to start. It can feel like frailty or fearfulness and greatly lowers self-esteem. It will take from you the energy needed to undertake changes and projects in your life (running on inertia).

 

All this is just a first step. Challenging these allow your will and resolution to start recover. Using it constructively will empower your self-control making easier, for example, restraining a bout of rage. Remember what I said before about self-control? Even if extreme events occur, we can distance ourselves by reading what happens. Choosing not to hurt someone or protect ourselves (e.g from getting emotionally scarred), depending on the situation. That's why no two situations are equal and you end up with people traumatized by events an outsider could deem as being less harmful than others where the victim managed to protect herself effectively (either instinctively or on purpose).

 

As you can see, working on the emotional side of the brain is the #1 rule to solve an inner self issues. Why? simple, the source to the aching is precisely the emotional side that has been neglected/mistreated for so long. For this reason, one should learn to save the analytical side of the brain for what is good, and strive to make both work side by side.

 

BTW rumination is a misuse of analytical thinking that is very common and can even lead -and sustain- depression. Akin to what happens with acoustical feed backs but in a downward emotional spiral. Rumination steals the so-called stream of consciousness. That's why low/depressed people become so attuned/attentive to pain and negativity while overlooking anything that is good in their present lives (or prospect future). By contrast, the past can be glorified to make the present feel even worse (the judgmental in her tells she's being a failure). Now why am I telling you this? cos your friends are likely right when they say you are being negative. (I too perceive this and I don't even know you!)

 

May be if you re-read your posts (like imaging you're another person) you could notice. It It's like you have a tunnel vision that keeps you from perceiving what's positive and that there is room for good. Also, do not indulge in the victimization game...at 31 or 51 -won't matter- you're perfectly fine to find someone whenever you are mentally ready for it. But firstly focus on yourself and then, when you feel whole and happy in your own skin, go for it man!

 

these are my 2 cts...or a tad bit more

[Teraskas]

I agree with all of this but having said that if one has walked around with rejection for years its extremely tough to open up about that, even to close friends. As I said somewhere else its ok to ask for help or even an opinion but its really tough to open up.

 

When you do open up, as I did, the side effect is you may get some help from friends etc.

 

Depending on your circumstances opening up may actually make you feel a lot better.

 

You are absolutely right, lol. ^^

 

Believe me, I've tried opening up about it to several people.

First off were my parents, but dating compared to what it was in their age is SO radically different that it can be compared to the middle ages versus present day to them.

 

Opening up to friends isn't really much of an option either, really.

Contrary to others, I used to have a small group of 5 friends whom I met in university. 4 out of 5 are in a relationship and don't bother meeting up anymore at all for anything.

The last guy and I occasionally tend to hang out just to chat up, but he has given up on women and became a MGTOW.

 

There are several new friends I've made through hobbies, but sadly they are once again also in relationships. Unfortunately, they have had the chance to be in a relationship from the 1st date. They have never been single for a lengthy period of time, nor can they understand the countless bs one has to wade through when having dated for years as I have.

 

So as you see, my "circumstances" are limited at best.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Teraskas

[dh4life]

Thank you all for advice, makes me feel quite a bit better. We're going for a walk again sometimes this week and I hope to find enough courage to ask her for a date. Some questions are still bothering me like maybe she is just friendly I'm almost always the one to start the conversation or propose a walk together, she accepts my ideas but I'm not sure if I'm not too pushy. I mean I actually miss her, she doesn't seem to miss me enough to text first or something.

 

Let's say I ask her out. I can't just say if she wants to go out with me without explicitly saying it's a date, otherwise it'll just be another "friendly" event. Now comes the problem of where to actually go. The town I'm from is really small so there are no actual events. The cinema option could be possible with some driving Should I ask her what she'd like to see? I have no idea how to choose a movie for a date. A dinner? We were already eating out together so how to make it more special? I can't really see myself going to a fancy restaurant, seems more like something from a book than from my life Also because of the small size of our town everybody knows everything very fast and there's almost always someone that knows you (or her) and that's making me even more nervous. Just going out for a drink? I have no clue what the best option is. I just know I want to do it now, because when school starts none of us will actually have much free time.

 

I also have a very good friend who can get a girl anytime without much effort. He can just talk to her and the next thing you know they're together, he's also using his skill for fun often, not serious relationships so he has also been with the girl we're talking about here. So yes I know it feels wrong that someone can do it so easily and I can't but I won't complain because I'm doing better than average in other aspects of life. I'm way too proud (or shy) to ask him for advice with girls

[ZA Dater]

Thank you all for advice, makes me feel quite a bit better. We're going for a walk again sometimes this week and I hope to find enough courage to ask her for a date. Some questions are still bothering me like maybe she is just friendly I'm almost always the one to start the conversation or propose a walk together, she accepts my ideas but I'm not sure if I'm not too pushy. I mean I actually miss her, she doesn't seem to miss me enough to text first or something.

 

Let's say I ask her out. I can't just say if she wants to go out with me without explicitly saying it's a date, otherwise it'll just be another "friendly" event. Now comes the problem of where to actually go. The town I'm from is really small so there are no actual events. The cinema option could be possible with some driving Should I ask her what she'd like to see? I have no idea how to choose a movie for a date. A dinner? We were already eating out together so how to make it more special? I can't really see myself going to a fancy restaurant, seems more like something from a book than from my life Also because of the small size of our town everybody knows everything very fast and there's almost always someone that knows you (or her) and that's making me even more nervous. Just going out for a drink? I have no clue what the best option is. I just know I want to do it now, because when school starts none of us will actually have much free time.

 

I also have a very good friend who can get a girl anytime without much effort. He can just talk to her and the next thing you know they're together, he's also using his skill for fun often, not serious relationships so he has also been with the girl we're talking about here. So yes I know it feels wrong that someone can do it so easily and I can't but I won't complain because I'm doing better than average in other aspects of life. I'm way too proud (or shy) to ask him for advice with girls

 

Very best of luck, I think try not to over think things too much. Try and be calm and most importantly be yourself.

[dh4life]

Any other last minute advice? This is happening today

[d0nnivain]

I guess I'll just have to find my balls and do something about it Probably wouldn't be smart to mention to her that I was never with any girl before, right? Also telling her directly how much I like her might not be ok? This is something so new to me it's really weird and scary. Generally I'm afraid of almost nothing but...

 

Any other last minute advice? This is happening today

 

 

What's happening today. . . the date itself or you asking for the date?

 

 

If you haven't asked yet, take some of the courage & success you have experienced in other parts of you life & apply it here. You can do this.

 

 

As for what to do on the date, a movie is an option. You can't talk much but since you already know this person, getting to know you isn't as much of a consideration. Ask her if there is something she'd like to see. Otherwise just pick something you want to see.

 

 

If you aren't the fancy restaurant type, don't go to one. You will feel awkward.

 

 

Since you said you live in a small town, drive to a nearby town to make it more special.

[angel.eyes]

I like the road trip to the next town! It will give you a chance to talk.

 

What's happening today? The walk? Ask her if she wants to grab ice cream afterwards. Pay for her ice cream. That was usually a big clue to me that the guy might like me, and we weren't just two friends hanging out. Chat over ice cream about your interests and things you like to do. If she mentions something you might also like, suggest it as a date.

 

Movies and concerts aren't great first date ideas since you can't really talk. If you decide to go with a movie, grab a bite to eat or do something else that allows you to chat and get to know each other afterwards.

 

Let us know how it goes.

[dh4life]

Yeah we went for a walk with her dog and I knew if I didn't ask her today I'd be so mad at myself right now and just before she went home I managed to force myself to ask if she'd like to go out like for a date and she said yes. She was already late so we didn't arrange the place and time but I was so relieved. She said you're driving so yeah I'll probably plan something in a bigger city about an hour away. More possibilities there.

 

Just before that we were planning another walk for tomorrow but I'm not sure now whether it's actually smart to keep walking around like until now (might feel weird) or just wait to actually go out on a date.

 

I know this is just a start but it feels good

[popcornpuff]

Congratulations dh4life!! Great job getting that date

[dh4life]

Soooo...we went to the cinema yesterday. First we went shopping for something her dog needed, got the tickets (paid by me) and the popcorn (paid by her) and waited for the movie to start so we had some time to talk. I have no idea what the movie was about because all I could think of was not to f**k up. Being the retard that I am, I asked her if she's ok with me holding her hand LITERALLY 10s before the movie was over...idiot. I told her what a bad timing it was when we drove home and just held her hand while driving. The atmosphere and conversation were relaxed. When we got home we sat in the car for a while and she said she had a good time and we should do it again sometime, also I told her she's messing with my head a little. Then we got out and a slightly awkward hug followed, I gave her a small kiss on the cheek, said goodnight and that was it. Asked her again today (fb) if she liked it yesterday, she said yes.

 

My inexperience was so obvious it hurts (I think next time I'll just tell her the real reason for being so clumsy so she won't just think I'm retarded) Now what is really confusing to me is the difference between her behaviour when she's a bit drunk at parties (she makes it quite clear that she wants something) and when not (no really obvious flirting). What the hell am I supposed to do to get her to show if there is any affection? If there's none then why bother saying we should do it again? How long should I wait before mentioning another date? I actually had a good time yesterday, I'm just worried she didn't REALLY enjoy it very much.

[dh4life]

Does anyone have any advice for me? I have no idea where this is going...

[ZA Dater]

Does anyone have any advice for me? I have no idea where this is going...

 

The best advice I have for you, enjoy the time with her and don't over think.

[dh4life]

If anyone still reads this thread here's an update:

 

Basically it all went to s**t

 

After our movie date we met for lunch twice during school and it was kinda similar...nice talking but nothing really happened.

 

Two weeks ago my friend invited me and some other friends to watch a movie together, but he also secretly invited her. I was completely surprised when she showed up but I decided to make the best of the evening. We all had a good time, but every move I made the reaction was still somewhat cold and passive. So when it was time to go home I was really pissed off about the situation and told her I want to drive her home and just asked her what she thinks about me. Then one of the best moments with her followed, she told me she actually likes me but she had some really bad experience from past relationships and is afraid that she would hurt me and that she has a problem with getting attached to people. She told me about some other unrelated problems and we had a really great talk. Before she left she said we'll take it easy and see what happens. I was so relieved that there actually was something happening and since that talk I really fell in love with her.

 

Before the movie night we wanted to arrange a date for the next day but that day she asked me if we could do it sometimes later because she needs time to think about what she really wants. I told her I won't give up on her and can help her with anything she needs.

And after that...every time I tried to meet her she came up with an excuse (she warned me she would do that because she's afraid to hurt me). So two days ago I said I must see her to tell her something, she came to me yesterday to talk. She told me I need a serious relationship and she just can't give me that because of her previous experiences. She needs time, a lot of it. We both know the situation is really bad, the worst thing is we can't just be friends again (I'd go crazy and she'd feel bad for me). I told her we could go easy like before...I won't expect anything from her and see what happens and she has to decide what feels right. Now I'm starting to doubt this is a good idea so I'll probably just try to forget this mess.

She was a big part of my life (one of the rare few girls I get along with) and what hurts the most is that the friendship is probably also doomed.

However I'm happy I got myself into this, learned a lot of things and discovered new feelings (high and low).

[ZA Dater]

If anyone still reads this thread here's an update:

 

Basically it all went to s**t

 

After our movie date we met for lunch twice during school and it was kinda similar...nice talking but nothing really happened.

 

Two weeks ago my friend invited me and some other friends to watch a movie together, but he also secretly invited her. I was completely surprised when she showed up but I decided to make the best of the evening. We all had a good time, but every move I made the reaction was still somewhat cold and passive. So when it was time to go home I was really pissed off about the situation and told her I want to drive her home and just asked her what she thinks about me. Then one of the best moments with her followed, she told me she actually likes me but she had some really bad experience from past relationships and is afraid that she would hurt me and that she has a problem with getting attached to people. She told me about some other unrelated problems and we had a really great talk. Before she left she said we'll take it easy and see what happens. I was so relieved that there actually was something happening and since that talk I really fell in love with her.

 

Before the movie night we wanted to arrange a date for the next day but that day she asked me if we could do it sometimes later because she needs time to think about what she really wants. I told her I won't give up on her and can help her with anything she needs.

And after that...every time I tried to meet her she came up with an excuse (she warned me she would do that because she's afraid to hurt me). So two days ago I said I must see her to tell her something, she came to me yesterday to talk. She told me I need a serious relationship and she just can't give me that because of her previous experiences. She needs time, a lot of it. We both know the situation is really bad, the worst thing is we can't just be friends again (I'd go crazy and she'd feel bad for me). I told her we could go easy like before...I won't expect anything from her and see what happens and she has to decide what feels right. Now I'm starting to doubt this is a good idea so I'll probably just try to forget this mess.

She was a big part of my life (one of the rare few girls I get along with) and what hurts the most is that the friendship is probably also doomed.

However I'm happy I got myself into this, learned a lot of things and discovered new feelings (high and low).

 

The highlighted part stands out here. If she has issues be there for her as a friend, there is nothing to loose doing that and if anything you look a better guy that most, most seem to bail at the mere sight of anything challenging.

[dh4life]

Thanks for the response, I had to take some time to see how this "friends" thing turns out. It's hard to return to being just friends...and it's definitely not the same as before, we exchange a few texts (I start) every now and then but it just makes me miss her. The more I think about it, the more I think maybe this isn't about her having problems, I'd like to believe that but maybe I'm just not a good enough person...And it makes me want to stay away from her, why would she want to have anything to do with me?(not a serious question, I'm just whining)

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Be glad you are only 20 OP

[PaperCrane]

Time to think about what she wants and not wanting a serious relationship and she says you need that?

 

I'm sorry, but you decide what you want. Not her.

 

Tell her straight up, that the time you spent together showed you what you want. You want her. Be honest and say you're inexperienced but that doesn't mean you can't tell what makes you feel good or feel happy. Also state that going back to 'just friends' isn't something you want, because now you've seen what you truly desire from her and anything less will just not work for you.

 

If you offer to just stay there still while she's 'deciding' it'll show that you are okay with less, which obviously isn't the case and will cause bigger problems later on.

[dh4life]

What she said is that she can see I need a serious relationship but she can't give me that because of her problems and she can't be with anyone right now. I want to believe it but it would hurt me if it was just an excuse...

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

The OP has said he has had girls interested in him, how did you know they were interested in you?

[dh4life]

Where did I say I had girls interested in me?

[darkbloom]

Dh--

 

I was in your exact shoes at 21 except I'm a female. It's a slight red flag that she keeps saying she doesnt want to hurt you and that you need a LTR.

 

My advice, don't get even more attached to her if you can help it. It hurts so much more when they reject you and you've already fallen in love with them. You may need to date some other girls but NEVER wait around for her to figure it out. She will come to you if she's ready and if not, it was never meant to be

[d0nnivain]

dh4life

 

Do you understand that this girl was in many ways being kind. She knew that she was not the girl for you & tried to let you down easy. She knew her own issues & didn't want to be awful to you so she took herself out of the running. Whether what she said was true or not, she was compassionate enough to be straight with you in that she did not want to date you.

 

So while it didn't have the happy ending you wanted -- an LTR -- it should tell you pick quality people to date.

 

Also if you got her to on more than one date with you & to speak well of you, it all likelihood you will get another date. Hang in there.

[dh4life]

Yeah I understand she was really nice, it's over now and I won't do anything to try to change that, it just feels bad being so close but so far and I kinda blame myself for this. Thank you all for help

[dh4life]

It's now four months since things went bad, my question is: how do you forget a girl you love? I would really like to move on but I have her stuck in my head. It gets better for a while and then something triggers in me and I get sad again. We only saw each other twice since then (randomly). Sometimes I dream about her and realize I miss just talking to her - I lost a good friend. Her birthday is this week, I will call her to wish her all good, what will happen in the future I have no idea.