Things I can clearly see now as an exOW

[Lady2163]

I drift in and out of the forum, but I am also one who arrived here during the time that insulting comments, demands to tell the BS, and bullying were considered support.

 

I was (and still would be) an unapologetic OW. Long term. Every day I have to make the conscious choice not to drop everything and fall back into the fantastic friendship I had with MM. It wasn't the hurt that would befall his wife or children that eventually caused me to end it, it was what it would invariably due to him. Financial ruin, loss of job, loss of reputatiom, loss of family....he just would have lost everything he worked for 40 years to build. It WAS a sacrifice on my part, just not under noble conditions.

 

The attacks from probable BS did cause me to strike back and I intentionally goaded them. I thought I had found a forum where Others could share their joys, sorrows and secrets. Instead of support, I was attacked from the start when my threads were still pretty innocent. As much as I liked MM, as much as I was confident in our friendship, as content as I was, I knew I would need more than one hour a week with a therapist once it ended. In this instance, Loveshack was unable to be an anonymous internet support group.

 

It has changed a lot. For the better. Thanks to all who made that happen.

 

Now, on a different note. I was married for many years. I never cheated on him. If I had had the time, I might have. I'm saying this as a divorced person who was in an unhappy marriage: of course you can do things in your marriage whether male or female that will "push" your partner toward the path of considering an affair. Totally stereotypically for people my age and older, men quit listening or spending time with their wives, wives quit having sex or mete it out like it is the rarest of treasures. I've seen this not just in my marriage, but in the marriage (and dissolutions) of many of my friends marriages.

 

One of the worst things I ever heard was from a woman in her early 30s. She was busy with her career and kids. She had not had sex with her husband in over two years. She said, "he married me for better or for worse. He will just have to accept that this is the worse. I'm not interested right now, it's a low priority."

 

Why do people treat the ones they supposedly love the most and plan to love them and be with them for the rest of their life like that? Is it selfishness? Entitlement? Low emotional intelligence? I don't know.

 

All that said, even though I believe a spouse can push their husband or wife toward an affair, there's no way, not gonna happen, Unh-uh, zero chance I will go to a betrayed spouse forum and say, "if you had given more sex, more time, spent less money, etc they wouldn't have cheated on you..." It is partially your fault.

 

I wouldn't begrudge my exH if he had been unfaithful. Almost 20 years after the divorce, and I'm still fine not knowing. We had sex so infrequently and he had a higher drive (actually my drive was quite high, he just was selfish in and out of the bedroom I had no interest in sex with him!) I'm guessing he did.

[NewLeaf512]

Thanks, NewLeaf! I must say that you are making lighting-speed progress, even though I know you don't feel 100% yet.

 

 

 

Hi Popsicle. Thanks for noticing my progress. For me it's kind of like being on a diet. You start doing the right things and the weight starts slowly dropping off but when you look in the mirror yourself, you don't see any change. Others can see it clearly but I cant. It will me the mental equivalent of thinking you are still heavy and going into the dressing room with a size x trouser which you think will just fit you, and then trying them on and having them fall to the floor.

 

 

Really I still feel like a fool but the change I CAN notice is just being aware of everything I do as much as possible. Mindfulness.

 

 

In as much as interviewing really stinks, having to force myself out of the house has helped, preparing and revising created a shift in focus. (Not recommending an A if you have low self-esteem or a midlife crisis! Go to a retreat instead!)

[Grapesofwrath]

Coco: I always enjoy your posts. Your emotional intelligence shines through, every time.

 

You mentioned several things that resonate, and I'd like to draw attention to one in particular: North American bias. I often assume that, because this site is conducted in English, that the other posters are North American or from the UK. Americans have an ugly habit of assuming that everything revolves around us, and that is an example. Thank you for raising my consciousness of that.

[NewLeaf512]

That's the other thing I learned. (my original thread title says it all) Like many I am sure we somehow land here thinking what we have/had was this magical never never land that only myself and exMM had ever been lucky enough to find. Oh how this mighty one has fallen. ha!

[Poppy47]

I learned how heavily biased this forum is toward North Americans, and their social and cultural assumptions. I also learned that, as a society, the U.S. In particular seems far more intolerant than most of affairs, whatever the circumstances. I also learned that bullying and rudeness can be rationalised away by some people as "tough love" - even if that is not remotely what "tough love" actually means.

 

I have also made some good friends.

 

I learned a great deal from my A itself. I learned that As are not all the same, just as people are not all the same and each individual needs to look at their own situation instead of assuming that because things worked out (or didn't work out) for Jo Public, it will be the same for them. I learned that there are no reliable stats in this arena, because of the nature of the beast, and that human nature is very complex. Most human seek out connection, and some times finding connection through an A when it is missing in an M is sufficient for the WS to leave; other times the M itself provides a web of connections that are hard to break / lose, and without the A itself offering at least as many, as solid, connections, the WS will be unable to leave. If leaving is what the AP is hoping for.

 

I have also learned that people who live authentically always revert to their true nature, but that acute or chronic stress can lead to people acting out of character, doing things they would not ordinarily do (for better or worse). When you meet someone you need to assess whether or not they are in "true to character" or "out of character" situations, and judge their behaviour accordingly. Sometimes, this is who they genuinely are, and other times, not. Is that someone you can respect, and can you live with that behaviour? Which is why getting to know someone over time, seeing them in many contexts, with family, friends, colleagues, animals, children, vulnerable people, authority figures, etc all helps to get an idea of who they really are. Many people in As don't have that opportunity, because they accept some structural limitations which are not necessarily valid, which can lead to relationships with fewer dimensions than non-A relationships. Other As ignore those limitations and are as multidimensional as any other R, and offer the APs a good opportunity to see if this is a person they want to be with long term.

 

I also learned that, like any other R, both people in the A need to communicate their expectations and concerns throughout, to ensure that it works for both of them, and if it stops meeting someone's needs, this needs to be discussed and addressed before it becomes a basis for simmering resentment or dysfunction. I learned that if a relationship is happy, healthy and strong, you willingly make time for it and put in the "work" it needs. If you find yourself resenting the time or effort involved - whether that's hanging about waiting for calls / texts, or "having" to spend hours in late night chats, or having to make complex plans that meet up - then it's not meeting your needs, and isn't sustainable long term. Both people should be making time and effort freely and happily, and not just one or the other.

 

This is a great insight into affairs. I found myself deeply resenting anything xMM did with his wife. I found the limitations unacceptable. There many elements of the A I hated. That's why I'm not in it anymore.

 

For a long time I put up with the limitations on talking and communicating by text, meeting at certain locations. Suddenly I thought "HOW F.... RIDICULOUS IS THIS?"

 

It met none of my long term needs.

 

Poppy.

[NewLeaf512]

I am beginning to see that I am way better than being last on a list

[autumnnight]

I think all of us are more sensitive to perceived bullying or attacks from the "other" side, whereas we tend to rationalise it as being appropriate when it's from someone that we imagine is more like us.

 

There is so much truth in this.

 

I am not sure if it is specifically LS or just time and life (though I suspect LS has something to do with it because it is one of the few forums where you do not need to subscribe to something to express yourself - which of course inhibits expression by definition).

 

I have learned that I do not have to agree with someone's thoughts or life choices in order to empathize and sympathize with the pain they are in. I think that is a very very important ability that a huge segment of the population thinks they do not have to have. We live in a "you got what's coming to you and I'm gonna dance on your grave" society, and sadly, most of the people I know who are like that profess to share my faith.

 

ANYHOO....when someone is in pain, we have choices. We can treat them as a fellow human in pain, or we can try to gain some sort of personal satisfaction or vindication from their pain. I believe the former is what a human does. I do not much care for the latter.

 

I admit, when I first started reading the OW/OM section I kind of expected (based on opinions of other people outside LS) it would be a bunch of revelers gleefully celebrating affairs. Guess what? This forum is inhabited by people with feelings and thoughts and humanity and flaws and insights and value...just like the rest of the world. I just wanted to say that last part because I am GLAD I didn't just keep that one-dimensional view of people who I didn't think "were like me."

[Patna]

I learnt that I wasted too much time on someone whom I didn't matter enough to him. I realised I lived my life during that period accommodating into whatever limited time he could spare me, and how I failed to see they were simply breadcrumbs and yet how desperate I was for them that I neglected the more important people in my lives. My life revolved around him. I lost my self, my self worth, and pride. I grew out of character and didn't know who I really was. He made me feel like I'm always the one at fault and I cannot understand why I would allow a man to treat me the way he did. I lost control of my life. Today, I learnt that there are far more meaningful and important things to live for in life.

[Josmatjes]

For any AP have you learned anything from the Forum and advice, bollocking, sympathy etc. that you have read here? I have. I also struggle with some emotions still. Did being here help you change or did you stay mostly the same? I have changed. For better and worse. The better is I will now live in reality, the worse is I am now very suspicious of people. Your thoughts if you are now or have been the OW/OM

 

Yes... I am suspicious of everyone. I don't trust like I used to. I don't even trust myself anymore due to my bad choices.

[NewLeaf512]

Yes... I am suspicious of everyone. I don't trust like I used to. I don't even trust myself anymore due to my bad choices.

 

I told myself today NO more new people. I am not good at choosing good ones

[Josmatjes]

I told myself today NO more new people. I am not good at choosing good ones

 

I can understand that. But I also believe that their are truly good people out there. You have to give people a chance, just listen to that inner voice when it tells you that something isn't right. Things that appear to be too good to be true, usually are!

[Grapesofwrath]

I can understand that. But I also believe that their are truly good people out there. You have to give people a chance, just listen to that inner voice when it tells you that something isn't right. Things that appear to be too good to be true, usually are!

 

One thing I have learned, for sure, is that in every toxic relationship I have had there has been a moment when something happened and my inner voice said, "that was it. That was the sign. This is not a healthy choice. Move on." And I would ignore that voice at my great peril and to my detriment. I would convince myself I was being too judgmental or perhaps being intolerant of others' flaws. From now on, I listen to that voice, and quickly.

[NewLeaf512]

I can understand that. But I also believe that their are truly good people out there. You have to give people a chance, just listen to that inner voice when it tells you that something isn't right. Things that appear to be too good to be true, usually are!

 

 

 

Thanks for your comment. I promise my inner voice is broken

[Starbright78]

I have learned after being out of the affair fog for a month and a half now that I don't miss the endless waiting for breadcrumbs. Or the highs and really lows that seem to come from affairs, the lying and leading a double life for 2 yrs. I feel free in sort of a way.

[Josmatjes]

One thing I have learned, for sure, is that in every toxic relationship I have had there has been a moment when something happened and my inner voice said, "that was it. That was the sign. This is not a healthy choice. Move on." And I would ignore that voice at my great peril and to my detriment. I would convince myself I was being too judgmental or perhaps being intolerant of others' flaws. From now on, I listen to that voice, and quickly.

 

I think from time to time we all ignore that inner voice. We just jump in head first and think that it's meant to be, or we are being overly cautious or paranoid. Part of the reason is fear! Fear to move on, afraid of being alone or whatever. But when your inner voice is seriously screaming at you that's when you need to say, hold on, let me evaluate this situation. That inner voice is there for a reason. It's your morals, your values, everything that makes you...you!

[Hope Shimmers]

I agree that you have to listen to the inner voice. But at some point if you are going to be open to loving a new person, you have to find a way to unblock that path to your heart.

 

I thought I was doing fairly well with that. Then, I got called on it by the person I'm with now (very new relationship). He knows my past extremely well as he has read all my posts. Last night he told me, "I am not XYZ, and what that person/those people did has nothing to do with me." At that point I realized that I had been pushing him away, out of fear or a hesitancy to trust. Even though there was nothing that he did to deserve that. There's no way a relationship like that can go where we both would want it to go.

 

So no matter what else, I woke up and learned that it's up to ME if I'm going to give someone my heart or not. And yes, I want to.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Hope Shimmers

[66Charger]

10 characters

Edited September 2, 2015 by 66Charger

[Grapesofwrath]

10 characters

 

What is the significance of "10 characters?"

[Hope Shimmers]

What is the significance of "10 characters?"

 

When the author of a post changes his/her mind and decides not to post something, they can edit the post and delete the text. But the forum is set up so that every post needs at least ten characters of text, so the post author just writes "ten characters" to use up those characters.

 

I was going to reply to his post.

[Sassy Girl]

I learned how heavily biased this forum is toward North Americans, and their social and cultural assumptions. I also learned that, as a society, the U.S. In particular seems far more intolerant than most of affairs, whatever the circumstances. I also learned that bullying and rudeness can be rationalised away by some people as "tough love" - even if that is not remotely what "tough love" actually means.

 

 

Agree 110% about he cultural bias on the site.

 

I am not American or English, and a large part of my communication style reflects my cultural norms.

 

I have been accused (several times) of being aggressive, when I'm not. I'm direct. My style is direct. We don't mince words. We don't use 50 words in conversations that only require 10. we are blunt and frank and unashamedly honest. And we don't do false sincerity Or Mollycoddling

 

And yeah, we generally tend to be unapologetic about it. Don't like it? That's ok, there are processes and mechanisms to manage that. Feel free to use them.

 

On the other had there are some who appreciate my forthright style.

 

I agree with Grapes that North Americans tends to speak and behave as though they are the centre of everything, which is not to criticise but comment on the fact that diversity is not altogether appreciated or valued.

 

What have I learnt? Wow. Lots. I started this journey to understand my dysfunctional parents better. I got more than I bargained for.

[NewLeaf512]

Agree 110% about he cultural bias on the site.

 

I am not American or English, and a large part of my communication style reflects my cultural norms.

 

I have been accused (several times) of being aggressive, when I'm not. I'm direct. My style is direct. We don't mince words. We don't use 50 words in conversations that only require 10. we are blunt and frank and unashamedly honest. And we don't do false sincerity Or Mollycoddling

 

And yeah, we generally tend to be unapologetic about it. Don't like it? That's ok, there are processes and mechanisms to manage that. Feel free to use them.

 

On the other had there are some who appreciate my forthright style.

 

I agree with Grapes that North Americans tends to speak and behave as though they are the centre of everything, which is not to criticise but comment on the fact that diversity is not altogether appreciated or valued.

 

What have I learnt? Wow. Lots. I started this journey to understand my dysfunctional parents better. I got more than I bargained for.

 

 

Sassy, Ive now read several, and been the target of 2 of your posts I believe. Whilst there is no doubt that you have some interesting and valuable advice, there is a line between direct and rude.

If you are here to basically shoot verbal bullets at posters, that seems to be mission accomplished.

I'd love to see your delivery stay on the side of open and forthright so the message doesn't get lost, instead of veering into hostile and aggressive. Ive lived all over the world and I haven't been exposed to any culture that represents as you say yours does. Your English is impeccable and therefore I have to assume that either English is your first language or that you are highly educated.

 

 

Have you thought about one of the "learning's" which is the topic of my thread could be a data collection exercise on what you yourself reveal above, that you have often been seen to be aggressive, when you feel you are not?

Mathematically speaking, you have some statistically significant data (more than one person painting your behaviour as aggressive) and perhaps you could have a think about this and see if in fact it could be the case even to some degree.

[Hope Shimmers]

For any AP have you learned anything from the Forum and advice, bollocking, sympathy etc. that you have read here? I have. I also struggle with some emotions still. Did being here help you change or did you stay mostly the same? I have changed. For better and worse. The better is I will now live in reality, the worse is I am now very suspicious of people. Your thoughts if you are now or have been the OW/OM

 

NewLeaf, responding to your original post - what I have learned from this forum is that there are compassionate, sensitive people here who will offer support and who truly do "have your back" (tough love). You are one of the people who I have been privileged to get to know, due to your courage in sharing your story and your pain. It takes a lot of guts to put it all out there when you are in that vulnerable, terribly difficult place, and you have. The reaction I had when reading that really hard post about what you have been through... unspeakable.

 

So yes, although some here have been less than compassionate or supportive, so many people here offer thoughtful dialogue and I am grateful to you and many others here for that.

[NewLeaf512]

NewLeaf, responding to your original post - what I have learned from this forum is that there are compassionate, sensitive people here who will offer support and who truly do "have your back" (tough love). You are one of the people who I have been privileged to get to know, due to your courage in sharing your story and your pain. It takes a lot of guts to put it all out there when you are in that vulnerable, terribly difficult place, and you have. The reaction I had when reading that really hard post about what you have been through... unspeakable.

 

So yes, although some here have been less than compassionate or supportive, so many people here offer thoughtful dialogue and I am grateful to you and many others here for that.

 

Hope I've enjoyed lots on this forum both the supportive and the difficult truths that I have read and have been directed at me when they haven't been delivered like a sucker punch to the face.

[Sassy Girl]

I learned how heavily biased this forum is toward North Americans, and their social and cultural assumptions. I also learned that, as a society, the U.S. In particular seems far more intolerant than most of affairs, whatever the circumstances. I also learned that bullying and rudeness can be rationalised away by some people as "tough love" - even if that is not remotely what "tough love" actually means.

 

I have also made some good friends.

 

I learned a great deal from my A itself. I learned that As are not all the same, just as people are not all the same and each individual needs to look at their own situation instead of assuming that because things worked out (or didn't work out) for Jo Public, it will be the same for them. I learned that there are no reliable stats in this arena, because of the nature of the beast, and that human nature is very complex. Most human seek out connection, and some times finding connection through an A when it is missing in an M is sufficient for the WS to leave; other times the M itself provides a web of connections that are hard to break / lose, and without the A itself offering at least as many, as solid, connections, the WS will be unable to leave. If leaving is what the AP is hoping for.

 

I have also learned that people who live authentically always revert to their true nature, but that acute or chronic stress can lead to people acting out of character, doing things they would not ordinarily do (for better or worse). When you meet someone you need to assess whether or not they are in "true to character" or "out of character" situations, and judge their behaviour accordingly. Sometimes, this is who they genuinely are, and other times, not. Is that someone you can respect, and can you live with that behaviour? Which is why getting to know someone over time, seeing them in many contexts, with family, friends, colleagues, animals, children, vulnerable people, authority figures, etc all helps to get an idea of who they really are. Many people in As don't have that opportunity, because they accept some structural limitations which are not necessarily valid, which can lead to relationships with fewer dimensions than non-A relationships. Other As ignore those limitations and are as multidimensional as any other R, and offer the APs a good opportunity to see if this is a person they want to be with long term.

 

I also learned that, like any other R, both people in the A need to communicate their expectations and concerns throughout, to ensure that it works for both of them, and if it stops meeting someone's needs, this needs to be discussed and addressed before it becomes a basis for simmering resentment or dysfunction. I learned that if a relationship is happy, healthy and strong, you willingly make time for it and put in the "work" it needs. If you find yourself resenting the time or effort involved - whether that's hanging about waiting for calls / texts, or "having" to spend hours in late night chats, or having to make complex plans that meet up - then it's not meeting your needs, and isn't sustainable long term. Both people should be making time and effort freely and happily, and not just one or the other.

 

Sassy, Ive now read several, and been the target of 2 of your posts I believe. Whilst there is no doubt that you have some interesting and valuable advice, there is a line between direct and rude.

If you are here to basically shoot verbal bullets at posters, that seems to be mission accomplished.

I'd love to see your delivery stay on the side of open and forthright so the message doesn't get lost, instead of veering into hostile and aggressive. Ive lived all over the world and I haven't been exposed to any culture that represents as you say yours does. Your English is impeccable and therefore I have to assume that either English is your first language or that you are highly educated.

 

 

Have you thought about one of the "learning's" which is the topic of my thread could be a data collection exercise on what you yourself reveal above, that you have often been seen to be aggressive, when you feel you are not?

Mathematically speaking, you have some statistically significant data (more than one person painting your behaviour as aggressive) and perhaps you could have a think about this and see if in fact it could be the case even to some degree.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. On the flip side this is the third time now that I've been in receipt of your patronising and condescending attitude. Was that your intention?

 

I'd like to see your posts focus on content and points made rather than delivery. But hey, we can't all get what we want now, can we?

[Sassy Girl]

And to add- your response to me? Full of your so called "verbal bullets".

 

Just because you use prettier words, doesn't make your intent any less obvious.

 

ETA: not sure why cocos post is quoted there too. That wasn't intended

Edited September 2, 2015 by Sassy Girl