Why smart men fail with women

[hotpotato]

Logic is linear. That's a fact. But linear logic isn't necessarily indicative of high intelligence.

 

Some smart people are used to things that are more linear. So far in this thread math has been the example.

 

Being good at one thing or a few things DOES NOT mean you will excel at everything.

 

I also dont think most people can relate to having to put on a,performance just to be social. This hypothetical smart person may do advanced math naturally and easily. For some people being social esp on dates means,struggling for every single moment. Really, how many people want to constantly struggle???

[xxoo]

Some smart people are used to things that are more linear. So far in this thread math has been the example.

 

Being good at one thing or a few things DOES NOT mean you will excel at everything.

 

I also dont think most people can relate to having to put on a,performance just to be social. This hypothetical smart person may do advanced math naturally and easily. For some people being social esp on dates means,struggling for every single moment. Really, how many people want to constantly struggle???

 

We know what it's like to struggle. We struggled in math class! (or whatever class. Everyone struggles at something).

 

The thing is, we don't need to be good at high level math, or writing, or dance to be content in life. People who struggle in relationships may very much want a relationship, and it leads to unhappiness.

[anduina]

Some smart people are used to things that are more linear. So far in this thread math has been the example.

High levels of math aren't always linear. They're pattern abstractions.

[Justanaverageguy]

Some smart people are used to things that are more linear. So far in this thread math has been the example.

 

Being good at one thing or a few things DOES NOT mean you will excel at everything.

 

I also dont think most people can relate to having to put on a,performance just to be social. This hypothetical smart person may do advanced math naturally and easily. For some people being social esp on dates means,struggling for every single moment. Really, how many people want to constantly struggle???

 

But very intelligent people know how the human mind works from studying it, studying patterns and observing their own experience. The initial part of learning anything is the most difficult part and requires the most effort and the most struggle.

 

Smart people have learnt this and understand how learning curves work and the way the human mind operates when learning new tasks. How neural pathways are established by repetition of an action or specific ways of thinking - making them become much easier to perform over time and eventually when repeated enough they become subconscious and then require minimal conscious effort to perform.

 

It is why learning to drive a car is very difficult at first but with practice becomes so second nature you can do so without having to think about how you do it at all. Social interactions are no different to any other action except some people let shyness and fear of rejection stop them from practicing and getting skilled at it just like some people let fear of crashing stop them from learning to drive stick

 

I do not believe there is time fora a human to excel at everything. But I do believe a driven human can excel at anything they decide to put their mind to.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Justanaverageguy

[xxoo]

Some people may have a "learning disability" in social learning, making it far more difficult for them to recognize social signs. A blind person can't learn enough to see, but they can learn to function without vision.

[anduina]

Some people may have a "learning disability" in social learning, making it far more difficult for them to recognize social signs. A blind person can't learn enough to see, but they can learn to function without vision.

Even people with learning disabilities can study human behaviour and learn how to consciously react to visible signs. There are many forms of education specifically targeting people on the spectrum, where the autists who sincerely wish to learn, do learn and often enough with autists, particularly those who are highly functioning, they have excellent memories for details.

 

But ones who refuse to learn, not even in an a priori manner that can lead to real life experiences, will continue to be unhappy with their lot in life. I'm uncertain if you're aware but autism and narcissism can often be confused or even sometimes comorbid.

[Justanaverageguy]

Some people may have a "learning disability" in social learning, making it far more difficult for them to recognize social signs. A blind person can't learn enough to see, but they can learn to function without vision.

 

Sure its possible someone could have clinically diagnosed autism or something similar which would impair their ability to read human emotions. Its also possible someone could just have mild social anxiety and use that as an excuse for avoiding social interactions out of fear which then means they have not spent time developing their emotional and social skills to master them.

 

Very intelligent people understand what fear is and the tools and emotions to use to overcome it. Its perhaps one of the more tricky lessons to learn in life. Fear follows a pattern ..... its cure can be observed if you pay attention.

[anduina]

I don't think that anyone is doing autists any favours by enabling their belief that it's because they're too intelligent. Some are very intelligent but not all of them by a long shot. So if they wish the outcome of positive social interactions and healthy relationships, they need to understand that they'll have to take the steps to improve their social skills through education and interactive experiences.

[xxoo]

Even people with learning disabilities can study human behaviour and learn how to consciously react to visible signs. There are many forms of education specifically targeting people on the spectrum, where the autists who sincerely wish to learn, do learn and often enough with autists, particularly those who are highly functioning, they have excellent memories for details.

 

But ones who refuse to learn, not even in an a priori manner that can lead to real life experiences, will continue to be unhappy with their lot in life. I'm uncertain if you're aware but autism and narcissism can often be confused or even sometimes comorbid.

 

Some can choose not to work so hard at that area, preferring to focus on and enjoy other areas of life, and still find happiness.

 

The approach that definitely doesn't work is refusing to learn AND wanting to have success in this area.

[autumnnight]

I don't think that anyone is doing autists any favours by enabling their belief that it's because they're too intelligent. Some are very intelligent but not all of them by a long shot. So if they wish the outcome of positive social interactions and healthy relationships, they need to understand that they'll have to take the steps to improve their social skills through education and interactive experiences.

 

This statement shows a very poor understanding of autism....very poor. You are right that the "rainman" savant stereotype of autism is waaaaaay skewed and only a tiny percentage of those with autism. But acting like it is all in their heads and pairing it with narcissism is just way off.

[anduina]

Some can choose not to work so hard at that area, preferring to focus on and enjoy other areas of life, and still find happiness.

 

The approach that definitely doesn't work is refusing to learn AND wanting to have success in this area.

True. My brother was diagnosed with asperger's so he's on the spectrum. He worked hard at social skills, dated and found his wife.

[Timshel]

I don't think that anyone is doing autists any favours by enabling their belief that it's because they're too intelligent. Some are very intelligent but not all of them by a long shot. So if they wish the outcome of positive social interactions and healthy relationships, they need to understand that they'll have to take the steps to improve their social skills through education and interactive experiences.

 

As a parent of a son on the spectrum, i agree. This is the jist of our conversation home from school today.

 

Me: Homework today?

 

Him: Idk. I can't remember.

 

Me: How can you not remember?

 

Him: I can only remember complex equations and logic, mom.

 

Me: Oh yeah? Well here's the thing about complex son....If complex is simple, then simple is really simple.....the fact of the matter is, if you don't do your homework or brush your teeth the simple has become complex and beat you at yourself.

 

Him: Silence......yeah, you're right.

 

I hope this works, sigh.

[JustGettingBy]

I have two points I'd like to make:

 

1.

The article seems to have two recurring messages:

 

dating isn't cut and dry

 

women divide men into 'get it' and 'don't get it'

 

however, saying women divide men into two overly simple categories with no in between seems like a very cut and dry statement about dating. The articles also assumes all women do this, immediately after calling them all individuals.

 

2.

The autism discussion:

As someone on the autism spectrum myself (I was officially diagnosed with aspergers when it was officially a diagnosis), I have no clue when a woman is interested. I even started a thread about flirting here, and never really got a straight answer, and see many of the 'rules' of it break social norms and expectations. Giving people their personal space was a rule forced down my throat until I choked it up, and I'm seeing that flirting can contain touching. Or on the opposite end, flirting contains eye contact and using the other person's name, which you're always supposed to do. So someone who's flirting to me seems like they're either a) breaking the social norms so much that its unacceptable or b) being totally normal. I've been told by most of my friend groups that I get flirted with either the most, or one of the most, but I've only noticed flirting a few times (all after the woman had consumed a few alcoholic beverages).

[elaine567]

This statement shows a very poor understanding of autism....very poor. You are right that the "rainman" savant stereotype of autism is waaaaaay skewed and only a tiny percentage of those with autism. But acting like it is all in their heads and pairing it with narcissism is just way off.

 

Maybe not so far off -

Do You Think of Narcissism as an Autistic Spectrum Disorder?

“Of course not!” you might say dismissively. Not so quick. Better think again.

[anduina]

Maybe not so far off -

Do You Think of Narcissism as an Autistic Spectrum Disorder?

“Of course not!” you might say dismissively. Not so quick. Better think again.

My comments are based on experiences from my brother and our family's travels through life with him, which include experiences with mental health professionals and involved family cooperation and support. We're a tight family.

[anduina]

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Wayne Gretzky

[GravityMan]

First of all, my thoughts below assume that the guy has no mental disorders/disabilities and is not on the spectrum.

 

I agree with some of the reasons in the OP, especially the "social skills" and the "too much logic" (although I prefer the phrase "overly analytical"). Generally speaking, if you can't communicate decently with women (verbally and non-verbally) on at least a basic level, then you're going to have trouble in many aspects of life. A key part of being able to do well in various areas of life is being able to build up an emotional rapport with many different types of people of both genders. People skills. That goes well beyond dating.

 

Dating in general is not difficult for most people, including most intelligent people. On a basic level, there really isn't that much to it. (I think most of the people who "struggle" tend to overthink things, are uptight and just won't get out of their own way.) Although the underlying nuances can be more complicated...and being on the same wavelength in that area may play a factor between things flzzling out after a few dates or progressing all the way to BF/GF-land. I don't think it's wise to try too hard to intricately understand the nuances...because chances are, you'll just KNOW when it feels right.

 

However, I do not agree with the Free Republic's premise that such men are necessarily highly intelligent. There's a difference between being "book smart"...and truly being a bright person. There are different types of intelligence...but in general, an intelligent person has critical thinking ability, understands different shades of gray, has a basic idea of what to do (or not to do) in unfamiliar situations, knows when to step up and when to back off, has street smarts, is capable of good insights, can read between the lines, is a solid judge of character (and good judgment ability in general), and can improvise & think outside the box. Some of the things in that list almost require competent social acumen. Knowledge is mostly just memorization of stuff. But truly understanding what you know and being able to apply it effectively in dynamic real-world situations is a different story.

 

Despite the alleged loose coincidental link between IQ and interpersonal skills...high IQ is NOT the reason such guys struggle with social skills (including things like cues, gestures, nuance, humor, subtleties, body language, innuendo, indirectness, etc.) and it isn't the reason they struggle with connecting emotionally with women (& people in general) and making them feel good. The reasons are more fundamental than that & apply to guys of any IQ...

 

It is highly probable that they did not spend much time during their childhood, teen and early adult years having fun and socializing with their peers...both boys and girls. They spent way too much time watching TV, reading books or even studying/doing homework. Kept to themselves way too much due to severe shyness or some other reason. Not enough time hanging out, getting out of the house and doing cool stuff with buddies...IN PERSON, not on Facebook/Instagram. Yeah, getting an "A" on that important test is great. However, going to a few parties with your friends also has positive value that may pay some good dividends down the road...it (hopefully) helps you loosen up, get outside of your own head, not give as much of a f*ck, and become more comfortable around others, including attractive women, coworkers, business partners, and so on. This also helps you learn not to overthink things, and be better able to take things in stride. Little things like icebreakers, small talk, making eye-contact without staring, etc...they all matter. Most people naturally learn those things by having lots of varied social life experiences during their childhood, adolescence and early adulthood.

 

You must engage with lots of people often in various situations in order to build up your social skills and maximize your emotional intelligence (EQ). There is no shortcut or cheats. Direct, hands-on substantial experience is mandatory. To put it more bluntly, it's about being able to relate to others. If you don't grasp relatability early, it's much harder to do it after the age of 25 or so.

 

As the socially inept guy grows up a bit, he may eventually find himself in situations where solid social skills and/or emotional bonding are kinda important...e.g. bars, team-oriented workplaces, dates, parties where the music's loud and dancing's going on and liquor's freely flowing. Naturally, he's clueless, lacking in self-confidence and is out of his element. Therefore he either retreats into his shell, or digs into an area he's comfortable with...his book-smarts (or his geek-isms). Both are bad decisions. In the latter case, that's just going to annoy others and make them think "Ugh, WTF is up with this weird-ass dude??". An awkward situation is created. Which makes some women (and even some guys) feel uncomfortable.

 

In fairness though...there is a good chance that the light bulb will one day turn on in the inept dude's head, and that he'll be socially OK in the long run and do alright on the dating scene. The overwhelming majority of men will have at least one significant other at some point in their lives, including many men who were socially awkward at a younger age. It is very rare to make it to the age of 35 without having had at least one intimate relationship.

 

While being relatable is best learned young...social skills are pretty simple to learn at any age; they are learned and improved just like most other skills. Most people organically learn how to be social over time via a combination of life experiences, solid parenting, practice and learning from past mistakes. High IQ people are no exception...in fact, I'd say they have an advantage...just gotta put themselves out there. It is not necessary to become an "expert" socially...just become competent at it. That's sufficient to be able to interact effectively with most people, and have some success on the dating scene.

 

As for "logic vs. emotion"...it shouldn't be a "versus" in the first place. A healthy individual has some of both; they complement each other. An overly logical and emotionless person would probably be boring at say...a sporting event. Doesn't cheer in a way that seems spontaneous and genuine (although that could mean that he just doesn't like sports). Heartless, cold, too calculated, lacking in conscience, etc. He/she'd probably also be bad at sex. In a worst-case-scenario, the person is a bit of a sociopath. An overly emotional person can be great fun at times, but may be a bit frustrating in situations that call for careful thought and calm rationality.

 

For most people, both logic and emotion factor into the big decisions they make. That's just human nature for most of us. Many things in life are not cut-n-dry.

 

Last but not least: you can be a truly incredible, fun and awesome person, with outstanding conversational ability, smarts, great empathy and an excellent sense of humor...and yet 95%+ of all women will NOT be attracted to you. The reasons why are irrelevant...the bottom line is they simply aren't into you, period, end of story. Most of them probably think you're a good guy...but it just takes a different type of guy to get their hearts beating faster, that's all. People are attracted to different things.

[hotpotato]

But very intelligent people know how the human mind works from studying it, studying patterns and observing their own experience. The initial part of learning anything is the most difficult part and requires the most effort and the most struggle.

 

Smart people have learnt this and understand how learning curves work and the way the human mind operates when learning new tasks. How neural pathways are established by repetition of an action or specific ways of thinking - making them become much easier to perform over time and eventually when repeated enough they become subconscious and then require minimal conscious effort to perform.

 

It is why learning to drive a car is very difficult at first but with practice becomes so second nature you can do so without having to think about how you do it at all. Social interactions are no different to any other action except some people let shyness and fear of rejection stop them from practicing and getting skilled at it just like some people let fear of crashing stop them from learning to drive stick

 

I do not believe there is time fora a human to excel at everything. But I do believe a driven human can excel at anything they decide to put their mind to.

 

Only problem is...people are not cars. For some people human interaction will never second nature. I just think the concept is,so foreign to most of the people here. Also, someof the same people who arent naturals,at human interactions also do not drive.

 

For some people, human interactions will ALWAYS be a performance. Some people do it better than others, but it still gets exhausting.

Edited August 29, 2015 by hotpotato

[hotpotato]

High levels of math aren't always linear. They're pattern abstractions.

 

Well, you get my drift.

To hypothetical smart person ecen high levels,of math have patterns, even if they arent obvious,to you. This same person may bever see social patterns the way you do.

[hotpotato]

We know what it's like to struggle. We struggled in math class! (or whatever class. Everyone struggles at something).

 

The thing is, we don't need to be good at high level math, or writing, or dance to be content in life. People who struggle in relationships may very much want a relationship, and it leads to unhappiness.

 

If that leads to unhappiness, thats life. Not everyone is going to get a trophy. Or a date.

 

Struggling at math is,a,little different from struggling with people...

[elaine567]

Only problem is...people are not cars. For some people human interaction will never second nature. I just think the concept is,so foreign to most of the people here. Also, someof the same people who arent naturals,at human interactions also do not drive.

 

For some people, human interactions will ALWAYS be a performance. Some people do it better than others, but it still gets exhausting.

 

I believe that anyone, with enough incentive, enough intelligence, enough motivation and desire to learn can conquer adversity and get by reasonably well socially and in the dating arena. It may be seen as a performance, but even the most socially adept are still "performing" too. I think even the most "natural" have to work at it.

 

BUT so many it appears do NOT want to try.

Their personalities are such that they doom themselves to failure from the outset.

[hotpotato]

I believe that anyone, with enough incentive, enough intelligence, enough motivation and desire to learn can conquer adversity and get by reasonably well socially and in the dating arena. It may be seen as a performance, but even the most socially adept are still "performing" too. I think even the most "natural" have to work at it.

 

BUT so many it appears do NOT want to try.

Their personalities are such that they doom themselves to failure from the outset.

 

Believe it or not, some people dont want to struggle, dont want adversity. If someone needs to struggle, there are plenty of other things to do.

 

If someone is doing something naturally, theyre not working hard at it. Im willing to bet naturals dont have to worry about everything they say, doing this, not doing that, say this not that, stand this close not that close, the list goes on. They are doing all of that naturally, otherwise they wouldnt be 'naturals.'

[hotpotato]

I have two points I'd like to make:

 

1.

The article seems to have two recurring messages:

 

dating isn't cut and dry

 

women divide men into 'get it' and 'don't get it'

 

however, saying women divide men into two overly simple categories with no in between seems like a very cut and dry statement about dating. The articles also assumes all women do this, immediately after calling them all individuals.

 

2.

The autism discussion:

As someone on the autism spectrum myself (I was officially diagnosed with aspergers when it was officially a diagnosis), I have no clue when a woman is interested. I even started a thread about flirting here, and never really got a straight answer, and see many of the 'rules' of it break social norms and expectations. Giving people their personal space was a rule forced down my throat until I choked it up, and I'm seeing that flirting can contain touching. Or on the opposite end, flirting contains eye contact and using the other person's name, which you're always supposed to do. So someone who's flirting to me seems like they're either a) breaking the social norms so much that its unacceptable or b) being totally normal. I've been told by most of my friend groups that I get flirted with either the most, or one of the most, but I've only noticed flirting a few times (all after the woman had consumed a few alcoholic beverages).

 

This is kinda me, and im a girl. Looking back i thought boys,were never interested in me. Now i realize maybe i was missing the signs

I usually just think the guy is being nice. Basically a guy would have to be very far out of social norms for me to get it. He would have to flash me or say he wanted to tap some azz. Them id get it.

 

Id truly need someone with me to point things out.