Why do I resent being the initiator? approaching and asking out, i feel i shouldn't

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Enough to know most females who initiate are fairly desperate.

 

So you agree with the double standard that if a woman initiated it makes her look desperate? Is that what you are saying?

[empresario]

I disagree that men HAVE to initiate. Women initiate all the time...you probably just don't notice.

 

 

Someday you will look back at all of the time women have flirted with you, essentially begging you to notice them (initiating in their own way) and slap yourself.

 

 

And why do you hate initiating so much? What do you, in your words, 'resent' it? Let's get to the root problem. Initiating isn't natural for me, and not a lot of women turn me down. But it doesn't mean I avoid doing it. It took a lot of work to gain the confidence/social programming to do it.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

I disagree that men HAVE to initiate. Women initiate all the time...you probably just don't notice.

 

 

Someday you will look back at all of the time women have flirted with you, essentially begging you to notice them (initiating in their own way) and slap yourself.

 

 

And why do you hate initiating so much? What do you, in your words, 'resent' it? Let's get to the root problem. Initiating isn't natural for me, and not a lot of women turn me down. But it doesn't mean I avoid doing it. It took a lot of work to gain the confidence/social programming to do it.

 

Probably need to do more work to gain the confidence and social programming to do it, so you have had women say Hi and initiate conversations, interest in you first?

[empresario]

Probably need to do more work to gain the confidence and social programming to do it, so you have had women say Hi and initiate conversations, interest in you first?

 

I'll put it this way. Women are programmed to dissuade male interest. Every day women are offered penis. Every day they have to say no. If a woman chooses to interact with you first, be it flirty motions or talking to you, then chances are they are opening themselves up at least a little.

 

I find it very obvious when a woman has no interest in talking with me, even if it's entirely innocent.

 

As far as learning to initiate. Just try it a few times. It could be anything. The worst that happens is you get shut down. Shoot. I've even been as shameless as to use my color blindness to start conversations with cute women. "Hey I can't see colors, will you help me pick out a shower curtain that's not girly? You will? Hi, I'm Empresario".

[Cupid's Puppet]

Putting effort into it is not the issue with perpetually rejected people. Barring a haircut how can you realistically improve your looks, if you are skinny you can go to the gym as much as you like but unless your t shirt off all the work means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

I agree with the opening poster, why must guys always initiate?

 

Ladies complain about guys using them for one night stands, how many of the same ladies brutally turned down a genuinely nice guy?

 

If your experience is always bad and you put in the effort then after a while you simply don't bother and that just drives good guys into paying for sex.

 

A woman asking him out won't change things. Unless the woman is absolutely gorgeous he will be extremely turned off being asked by a woman. That is very masculine. The only times I see that working is when the girl looks like Hannah Davis and she asks you to join her in a game of billiards at the pool hall. But a plain Jane randomly walking up to a Brad Pitt at a bar

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

A woman asking him out won't change things. Unless the woman is absolutely gorgeous he will be extremely turned off being asked by a woman. That is very masculine. The only times I see that working is when the girl looks like Hannah Davis and she asks you to join her in a game of billiards at the pool hall. But a plain Jane randomly walking up to a Brad Pitt at a bar

 

Not all guys are turned off being asked out by a woman, can't speak for every guy

Edited August 26, 2015 by BronzeAgeJaeger217

[ZA Dater]

I disagree that men HAVE to initiate. Women initiate all the time...you probably just don't notice.

 

 

Someday you will look back at all of the time women have flirted with you, essentially begging you to notice them (initiating in their own way) and slap yourself.

 

 

And why do you hate initiating so much? What do you, in your words, 'resent' it? Let's get to the root problem. Initiating isn't natural for me, and not a lot of women turn me down. But it doesn't mean I avoid doing it. It took a lot of work to gain the confidence/social programming to do it.

 

In my case that number is zero.

[Cupid's Puppet]

This entitlement mentality relates precisely to what the OP is talking about... it's the other side of the coin. What is it exactly, beyond the homogametic chromosomal arrangement, that makes you so sure that the other gender is supposed to pursue, provide, protect and otherwise make sure that you're able to passively glide through life as the recipient of heroic efforts and generosity... saying what you want, expect, deserve and having it obediently delivered?

 

More and more, I filter for women who are willing to meet half way in the dating-mating game. There are plenty of them out there, but the cues are often quite subtle. On the other hand, there are a huge number of women's profiles that go on and on about what they want, deserve and expect a man to deliver. I pass on those.

 

I dated someone last year who had that mentality, and yes I did pursue, provide and protect to a certain extent. But her expectations were far beyond what I have either the capacity or inclination to deliver... and what did I get for the effort? Pussy. That's it. No real appreciation and very little genuine affection. She admitted after many months that she had been diagnosed as narcissistic. Suffice it to say that reciprocity was not part of her repertoire. Not doing that again.

 

This is the 21st century. There is still holdover from the Victorian era, and ya know, if you're a guy who only wants arm candy then by all means play that foolish game. But if you want a real partner in life––reciprocity––look for a modern women who is neither a Victorian era holdover or a 20th century Feminazi type.

 

I love women and I also embrace traditional gender roles in many ways, but just as with men, there are many, many variations on a theme and you have to quit settling for the ones who see it all as a one-way street. That's why men need to pursue... because otherwise you're going to get the dregs by default.

 

I don't feel entitled. But providing and protection are the key things a man can give to a woman. That's why we like to be embraced by a man. It makes us feel protected. And even sexually you are the provider. You give and we receive. Reminds me of what Chris Rock said. He was like a man doesn't even know how to react when a woman gives him a gift. I have found that true. A guy is always looking at me strange when I give him a gift. Men are just natural providers and protectors.

[Els]

Enough to know most females who initiate are fairly desperate.

 

So you are complaining about having to ask women out, but when a woman asks a man out you dub her 'desperate'?

 

Yeah.... good luck, dude. You'll need it.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

So you are complaining about having to ask women out, but when a woman asks a man out you dub her 'desperate'?

 

Yeah.... good luck, dude. You'll need it.

 

Yes he confused me by saying that

[elaine567]

I think you have to look at why you are resentful regarding asking women out.

 

Anger—How We Transfer Feelings of Guilt, Hurt, and Fear

[truthtripper]

...... most females who initiate are fairly desperate.

 

Come on now...if people don't approach each other for fear of being perceived as "desperate" there will be no procreation and we will die out as a species.

[ZA Dater]

So you are complaining about having to ask women out, but when a woman asks a man out you dub her 'desperate'?

 

Yeah.... good luck, dude. You'll need it.

 

 

Ok this is me being not particularly politically correct.

 

 

You simply don't see that stunning lady asking guys out, no quite often its the female nobody wants to ask out because she is simply too physically unattractive (apparently like me).

 

 

Me, I couldn't care less who asks who out.

[empresario]

In my case that number is zero.

 

Did you ever consider it's your negative self-perception that creates that reality for you? Not the world?

[truthtripper]

ZA Dater, it's not about looks. It's all about CONFIDENCE. It's the sexiest thang!

Edited August 26, 2015 by truthtripper

[popcornpuff]

BronzeAgeJaeger, there's nothing wrong with you for not wanting to be the initiator. I'm not a psychologist (heck, I dropped out of my psychology class) and I may be way off here but my guess is that you feel like you've had too many failures in asking girls out that you've come to dread it.

 

You've heard the phrase "success begets success." For some men, they start off really nervous when they first begin asking girls out and they luck into succeeding quickly. This provides them with positive reinforcement such that they gain the confidence where they can seemingly just point at a girl and get her to go out with him.

 

On the other hand, you may have experienced your fair share of "failures" when being the initiator. You ask a girl out, she says no, and you feel a sense of failure that naturally you would rather not feel. Every time you approach a girl "unsuccessfully" it grates on you. Repeat this a few times and you receive enough negative reinforcement where you would rather avoid being the initiator altogether.

 

Honest, there is nothing wrong with you. I don't want you to beat yourself up because you believe you shouldn't feel the way you do now.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

BronzeAgeJaeger, there's nothing wrong with you for not wanting to be the initiator. I'm not a psychologist (heck, I dropped out of my psychology class) and I may be way off here but my guess is that you feel like you've had too many failures in asking girls out that you've come to dread it.

 

You've heard the phrase "success begets success." For some men, they start off really nervous when they first begin asking girls out and they luck into succeeding quickly. This provides them with positive reinforcement such that they gain the confidence where they can seemingly just point at a girl and get her to go out with him.

 

On the other hand, you may have experienced your fair share of "failures" when being the initiator. You ask a girl out, she says no, and you feel a sense of failure that naturally you would rather not feel. Every time you approach a girl "unsuccessfully" it grates on you. Repeat this a few times and you receive enough negative reinforcement where you would rather avoid being the initiator altogether.

 

Honest, there is nothing wrong with you. I don't want you to beat yourself up because you believe you shouldn't feel the way you do now.

 

ya I believe that sums it up good, and it seems for most guys, men, knowing how to get a girlfriend, how to approach and talking to women is common sense for them, since a lot of guys are able to get a girlfriend in their teens and early 20's, meanwhile some guys are in their mid-20s and up and still haven't had a girlfriend, it makes me wonder where those guys went wrong in their past that made them not develop the skills, ability to get a girlfriend earlier in their life, something must have gone wrong for them in their formative years.

Edited August 27, 2015 by BronzeAgeJaeger217

[ZA Dater]

Did you ever consider it's your negative self-perception that creates that reality for you? Not the world?

 

Perception backed by facts has created reality. Nobody I ever asked out wanted to go out with me, that's the fact which has created the reality.

[ZA Dater]

BronzeAgeJaeger, there's nothing wrong with you for not wanting to be the initiator. I'm not a psychologist (heck, I dropped out of my psychology class) and I may be way off here but my guess is that you feel like you've had too many failures in asking girls out that you've come to dread it.

 

You've heard the phrase "success begets success." For some men, they start off really nervous when they first begin asking girls out and they luck into succeeding quickly. This provides them with positive reinforcement such that they gain the confidence where they can seemingly just point at a girl and get her to go out with him.

 

On the other hand, you may have experienced your fair share of "failures" when being the initiator. You ask a girl out, she says no, and you feel a sense of failure that naturally you would rather not feel. Every time you approach a girl "unsuccessfully" it grates on you. Repeat this a few times and you receive enough negative reinforcement where you would rather avoid being the initiator altogether.

 

Honest, there is nothing wrong with you. I don't want you to beat yourself up because you believe you shouldn't feel the way you do now.

 

The bold parts are totally spot on true in my opinion.

 

I keep saying it, even if you have some success it will motivate you to keep trying but when you face zero success you have neither the positive reinforcement nor the confidence and at the end of the day you simply cant be bothered to even try.

 

Bronzeagejeager brings up a good point, some people seem to get this right early in life, in fact I would go as far as to say most do and other seemingly never get it right.

 

In my opinion if you look at those who get it right and those who don't there are two very distinct general differences, those who get it right are very much mainstream in their interests, views and to a lessor extent behaviour, in other words they are societies sheep and conform to what society expects.

 

Those who battle are generally not followers, they have their own unique identity, they don't follow trends, their interests are less mainstream, their way of thinking less main stream.

 

Again my theory is these guys battle more because the average female feels comfortable in the sheep mentality, its easier to fit in with everyone else than to carry a unique identity.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

The bold parts are totally spot on true in my opinion.

 

I keep saying it, even if you have some success it will motivate you to keep trying but when you face zero success you have neither the positive reinforcement nor the confidence and at the end of the day you simply cant be bothered to even try.

 

Bronzeagejeager brings up a good point, some people seem to get this right early in life, in fact I would go as far as to say most do and other seemingly never get it right.

 

In my opinion if you look at those who get it right and those who don't there are two very distinct general differences, those who get it right are very much mainstream in their interests, views and to a lessor extent behaviour, in other words they are societies sheep and conform to what society expects.

 

Those who battle are generally not followers, they have their own unique identity, they don't follow trends, their interests are less mainstream, their way of thinking less main stream.

 

Again my theory is these guys battle more because the average female feels comfortable in the sheep mentality, its easier to fit in with everyone else than to carry a unique identity.

 

maybe a lot of these guys learned from their Dads and brothers, Uncles, or had the right type of friends while going through puberty, adolescence, or some of those guys got lucky by the very few girls out there that will make the first move on a guy, approach a guy

[elaine567]

In my opinion if you look at those who get it right and those who don't there are two very distinct general differences, those who get it right are very much mainstream in their interests, views and to a lessor extent behaviour, in other words they are societies sheep and conform to what society expects.

Those who battle are generally not followers, they have their own unique identity, they don't follow trends, their interests are less mainstream, their way of thinking less main stream.

 

Again my theory is these guys battle more because the average female feels comfortable in the sheep mentality, its easier to fit in with everyone else than to carry a unique identity.

 

I think guys who do their own thing are great and those who carve their own path can be fascinating, BUT what I get here from you in this post is disdain and most women or people in general don't like disdain.

Disdain is a negative emotion and is not attractive.

It can be scary, "If he is this disdainful of others, how am I going to cope if he turns it on me?"

It can be a turn off or just embarrassing, "I detect - he's got a chip on his shoulder"

It can make people defensive and it can anger people too. "Who the hell does he think he is?"

 

So whilst some women may like a maverick, quirky guy, some actually also like their "sheep" friends or they may sometimes even like acting like "sheep" themselves, and so dating a guy who is anti "normal" society and who looks down on "sheep", can be tough, so I guess a pass is in order for most.

I suggest curbing the disdain.

[ZA Dater]

I think guys who do their own thing are great and those who carve their own path can be fascinating, BUT what I get here from you in this post is disdain and most women or people in general don't like disdain.

Disdain is a negative emotion and is not attractive.

It can be scary, "If he is this disdainful of others, how am I going to cope if he turns it on me?"

It can be a turn off or just embarrassing, "I detect - he's got a chip on his shoulder"

It can make people defensive and it can anger people too. "Who the hell does he think he is?"

 

So whilst some women may like a maverick, quirky guy, some actually also like their "sheep" friends or they may sometimes even like acting like "sheep" themselves, and so dating a guy who is anti "normal" society and who looks down on "sheep", can be tough, so I guess a pass is in order for most.

I suggest curbing the disdain.

 

You right there is a healthy does of disdain in my post with an equally large dose of indifference.

 

Think about what one does should one approach, the first thing would be to find some common conversation point, hugely difficult if you don't conform to what society says. I could start a topic "hi what do you think of the shooting in the US today" chances are most people will look and go "huh", or perhaps I would say what do you think of the protests in ABC town in South Africa, again same "huh" but if I asked about Cool Club, oh sure I'd get a response then but I wouldn't be able to carry the conversation on because I have no interest in Cool Club.

 

This is my point, approaching is 99% likely to fail if your brain isn't hardwired to say what society wants you to say, wants you to be interested in and yes I view this with the utmost disdain imaginable.

 

You yourself admitted in another post, those why stray far from what society deems as normal will find their dating pool shrink dramatically.

 

Really its up to each person how desperately they want what dating supposedly offers as to whether to approach or not but I do feel for the most part you are just going to be greeted by utter disappointment if don't conform in an ever increasing conformist society.

 

Many of us will perpetually simply wonder.

[ZA Dater]

Society does not elect a council to determine what is or is not considered acceptable ice breaker conversation starters with ladies you plan to hit on. If you come up to some woman you do not know and start asking her personal opinion on current events that you are interested in, there is a good chance she won't be interested. If, for example, you want to talk with someone about the recent shooting, hitting up your random attractive girl with a drink in her hand on a Saturday night is going to make you look like a clueless, creepy dude. Your disdain, which is probably quite evident to these ladies, is not going to do you any favors either.

 

You yourself admitted in another post, those why stray far from what society deems as normal will find their dating pool shrink dramatically.

 

 

 

The ironic part about this whole thing is that you feel disdain for the people you label as sheep, because they don't conform to what you want to talk about.

 

By the way, I am one weird mofo, and I still get dates. Being weird can be good. Being disdainful and insulting women in general, not so much.

 

I think its quite reasonable to expect people to have some knowledge of the world around them and if they don't then I write them off indefinitely. Apathetic people hold no interest to me, irrespective of how physically attractive they may be.

 

What exactly are you supposed to say, should one feel inclined to chat to a stranger? I'd think a major world news event would be good enough?

 

I feel utter disdain to the entire way people date, disdain for the fact personality counts for nothing and disdain for the way I have been treated even when I have been perfectly nice.

 

Glad you agree that non conformists struggle, that was the meat of my post.

[ZA Dater]

Society does not elect a council to determine what is or is not considered acceptable ice breaker conversation starters with ladies you plan to hit on. If you come up to some woman you do not know and start asking her personal opinion on current events that you are interested in, there is a good chance she won't be interested. If, for example, you want to talk with someone about the recent shooting, hitting up your random attractive girl with a drink in her hand on a Saturday night is going to make you look like a clueless, creepy dude. Your disdain, which is probably quite evident to these ladies, is not going to do you any favors either.

 

You yourself admitted in another post, those why stray far from what society deems as normal will find their dating pool shrink dramatically.

 

 

 

The ironic part about this whole thing is that you feel disdain for the people you label as sheep, because they don't conform to what you want to talk about.

 

By the way, I am one weird mofo, and I still get dates. Being weird can be good. Being disdainful and insulting women in general, not so much.

 

Absolutely not true.

 

Ask yourself why human society feels the need to sit in bars and clubs and drink to have a good time? Then ask yourself if maybe 1/3 of people who go to such places actually want to be there or are they simply are there because, well everyone else does it.

 

That's the sheep mentality I am talking about.

 

The fact that most people are apathetic is another point entirely.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Like I was at a dating seminar recently, and I met a guy there who did not get his first girlfriend until the age of 31, despite being happy that he finally found one, he still feels jealous, envious of guys who had a girlfriend earlier in their life, like teens and early to mid-20's