Why do I resent being the initiator? approaching and asking out, i feel i shouldn't

[fitnessfan365]

Despite the fact that are many so-called "modern women", dating still carries an old fashioned mindset for a lot of them. It's "how they were raised".

 

But I gotta say OP, your argument of things being one sided and wanting a non sexiest dating society seems like an excuse to mask your fear of approaching. So I think the real resentment you feel is at yourself for lacking confidence.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Despite the fact that are many so-called "modern women", dating still carries an old fashioned mindset for a lot of them. It's "how they were raised".

 

But I gotta say OP, your argument of things being one sided and wanting a non sexiest dating society seems like an excuse to mask your fear of approaching. So I think the real resentment you feel is at yourself for lacking confidence.

That too and I suck at flirting, teasing, don't know how to create sexual tension, basic small-talk and basic conversation is fine its just being able to make the conversations interesting for the woman, guess tongoes to show you that the way men talk is more important than how women talk in order for sexual attraction to happen

[Qboro90]

You right there is a healthy does of disdain in my post with an equally large dose of indifference.

 

Think about what one does should one approach, the first thing would be to find some common conversation point, hugely difficult if you don't conform to what society says. I could start a topic "hi what do you think of the shooting in the US today" chances are most people will look and go "huh", or perhaps I would say what do you think of the protests in ABC town in South Africa, again same "huh" but if I asked about Cool Club, oh sure I'd get a response then but I wouldn't be able to carry the conversation on because I have no interest in Cool Club.

 

This is my point, approaching is 99% likely to fail if your brain isn't hardwired to say what society wants you to say, wants you to be interested in and yes I view this with the utmost disdain imaginable.

 

You yourself admitted in another post, those why stray far from what society deems as normal will find their dating pool shrink dramatically.

 

Really its up to each person how desperately they want what dating supposedly offers as to whether to approach or not but I do feel for the most part you are just going to be greeted by utter disappointment if don't conform in an ever increasing conformist society.

 

Many of us will perpetually simply wonder.

 

 

Wanting to discuss things and topics such as the examples you listed are completely fine. Thinking that its appropriate to bring up or discuss on a first meeting or date is what's not fine.... I'm well educated and could talk for hours on both of those questions you posed... But if someone I just met brought that up while out to dinner or at a social gathering, or one on one, id be like "wtf are you talking about, why do you want to discuss that with me at this point in time?".... I feel like those are convos you have with friends at dinner or a bbq. Or with your spouse because you want to discuss current events. Not with a potential love interest or date.

 

There's an etiquette of getting to know someone that's lost on you. People aren't going to open up and delve into topics like that with someone they barely know or just met. Why would they want to? Tell me about what you do, are you from the area? Are what people expect to learn first before going into "so... Who will you be voting for in the next election?".

 

Society isn't gonna change. Being disdainful towards that and people who converse accordingly is what limits you and probably reasons why you've failed up to now.

 

And on another note, just for arguments sake... One could say that those topics you used in that example are about as "sheepish" as one could be. You watched the 6 o'clock news and want to discuss what tragedy happened today in America or the genocide in Africa. Can you conform to the media agenda more? No ones gonna want to talk about depressing things like that when getting to know someone.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Ya oh well it sucks, everyone is going to be dealt with a different set of cards in life, some easy, some hard, for example, some people are born deformed

Edited August 28, 2015 by BronzeAgeJaeger217

[ZA Dater]

Wanting to discuss things and topics such as the examples you listed are completely fine. Thinking that its appropriate to bring up or discuss on a first meeting or date is what's not fine.... I'm well educated and could talk for hours on both of those questions you posed... But if someone I just met brought that up while out to dinner or at a social gathering, or one on one, id be like "wtf are you talking about, why do you want to discuss that with me at this point in time?".... I feel like those are convos you have with friends at dinner or a bbq. Or with your spouse because you want to discuss current events. Not with a potential love interest or date.

 

There's an etiquette of getting to know someone that's lost on you. People aren't going to open up and delve into topics like that with someone they barely know or just met. Why would they want to? Tell me about what you do, are you from the area? Are what people expect to learn first before going into "so... Who will you be voting for in the next election?".

 

Society isn't gonna change. Being disdainful towards that and people who converse accordingly is what limits you and probably reasons why you've failed up to now.

 

And on another note, just for arguments sake... One could say that those topics you used in that example are about as "sheepish" as one could be. You watched the 6 o'clock news and want to discuss what tragedy happened today in America or the genocide in Africa. Can you conform to the media agenda more? No ones gonna want to talk about depressing things like that when getting to know someone.

 

1: I see absolutely no reason why not, at least then I can determine if the person is apathetic or not, I have no interest in insulated apathetic people.

 

2: Easy, if the person has any vague level of intelligence they would be quite happy to discuss random things in between the "where you from, what do you do, what do you like to eat, what's your favourite colour, what do you think of this new rock group, lets find some common interests and talk about those"

 

3: Strange then that one or two I have met were quite happy to delve into those topics. YES I admit I have no idea what I should be asking people barring the above mentioned in point 2, very few I have met actually ranked anything remotely interesting because they could not talk about anything around them. You can only speak so long about arcane things like "what do you do, what clothes do you like, do you have a favourite eating place". Again I admit I am clueless at this, the ones I got on best with there was this ability to get into topics like life experiences (oddly enough I do have some of those) and suchlike. I just find if there is no general knowledge the conversation just comes to an end, worse if the person has very few interests then it ends even sooner.

 

This goes right back to the initial "do you approach and initiate or not", surely its how you initiate which determines the outcomes, all things being equal and if she has some intellectual ability? For me, I like someone who has a wide vocab, most guys I think couldn't care less.

 

4: I realise society isn't going to change, nor will the general apathy of society change but when I say to someone "Oh we are having a lovely cameo of summer" and they look at me like "huh what's a cameo" then my interest is gone, FYI this person was a gorgeous athletic brunette.

 

What limits me is what I look for and of course my butt ugly face, skinny athletic body and terrible disdainful personality, the latter a rather recent acquisition to my already fantastically poor amour of dating skills. The fact I have never had any female friends should I guess tell you everything you need to know.

 

So, initiate or not? May as well flip a coin and hope for the best because you can read what you want, do what you want but every person is different so you may get lucky or you may not, is the rejection worth it, absolutely if you can find one amazing experience in 20 then I guess it is but when all 20 have been bad then its clear the issue isn't with society its with YOU.

[ZA Dater]

That too and I suck at flirting, teasing, don't know how to create sexual tension, basic small-talk and basic conversation is fine its just being able to make the conversations interesting for the woman, guess tongoes to show you that the way men talk is more important than how women talk in order for sexual attraction to happen

 

I wish I knew the answer to this myself. If one is sitting down with someone how does one flirt? Yes, I have read online but the more I read the less clear it seems, being nice, is that not enough? Showing interest, is that not enough?

 

My opinion is men are the ones who ultimately need to "sell" themselves and not women.

[ZA Dater]

It is reasonable to expect people to have knowledge of the world around you, and most people have this knowledge. Your problem is expecting them to talk about serious topics like that with a stranger that is disdainful of others.

 

Personality does not count for nothing. I am not a good looking guy, but I have dated some absolutely gorgeous women. My personality has been everything for me.

 

 

 

Pretty much every guy in the USA goes to clubs for one reason...to meet women. It has nothing to do with being a sheep. That's why they have a ladies' night in club, because that will attract women, which in turn brings men as well.

 

Your biggest problem is your bad attitude. You come off like you think you are somehow better than everyone else. That attitude is most likely what keeps you dateless.

 

You are failing with women. You admit this. If you actually want to fix this issue, you might start taking some of the advice given here to heart. There are a few guys on here that know what they are talking about. Or you can continue you disdainful, dateless experience. I honestly don't care either way.

 

1: No they don't, I have sat down at upwards of 20 coffee dates with people of OLD sites and that knowledge isn't there at all with at least 90% of them. They don't even have the most basic of general knowledge, never mind an opinion on anything current. There is that recently acquired disdain again.

 

2: Ah yes, everyone goes to a club for the same reason whether you want to or not, sounds a lot like sheep syndrome to me, don't worry its not USA specific. Seriously though, why, why clubs? Who determined clubs are where one must meet people? How do you sell your personality in a noisy club or again is this part of the ever increasing superficial society, I have been to clubs many times, walked it, sat down, had a refreshment, walked out, looked around before I walked out. Shouting at someone to talk to them has no attraction whatsoever.

 

3: My dating record says I am not better than anyone at all, I have unfortunately recently acquired a large dose of disdain, well that was helped along by recent experiences. Strangely enough I am only ever the gentleman when I meet ladies (doesn't happen often I meet anything I like but irrespective), I take an interest in them, talk about them (even when they ask me nothing about myself), I don't know how to flirt but I try be nice and show interest, often I have brought small gifts to the date. Those I like I do pursue but get nothing back but indifference. Am I charming, no, not particularly, am I honest, absolutely. Do I wish I was someone else, most days more than once.

 

4: Advice is useful and duly noted but everything I try ends the same way, either I lower my standards, keep trying or just let a huge dose of disdain take me through each day or ask for help only for people to try and make me more about what society wants at the expense of who I am and what I like. "You should wear jeans" "I don't wear jeans because I don't like them" "But chicks like them". Why must I do something that I don't like for the "uncertainty" that something like jeans and a new hair cut is going to magically make me more attractive?

[Qboro90]

1: I see absolutely no reason why not, at least then I can determine if the person is apathetic or not, I have no interest in insulated apathetic people.

 

2: Easy, if the person has any vague level of intelligence they would be quite happy to discuss random things in between the "where you from, what do you do, what do you like to eat, what's your favourite colour, what do you think of this new rock group, lets find some common interests and talk about those"

 

3: Strange then that one or two I have met were quite happy to delve into those topics. YES I admit I have no idea what I should be asking people barring the above mentioned in point 2, very few I have met actually ranked anything remotely interesting because they could not talk about anything around them. You can only speak so long about arcane things like "what do you do, what clothes do you like, do you have a favourite eating place". Again I admit I am clueless at this, the ones I got on best with there was this ability to get into topics like life experiences (oddly enough I do have some of those) and suchlike. I just find if there is no general knowledge the conversation just comes to an end, worse if the person has very few interests then it ends even sooner.

 

This goes right back to the initial "do you approach and initiate or not", surely its how you initiate which determines the outcomes, all things being equal and if she has some intellectual ability? For me, I like someone who has a wide vocab, most guys I think couldn't care less.

 

4: I realise society isn't going to change, nor will the general apathy of society change but when I say to someone "Oh we are having a lovely cameo of summer" and they look at me like "huh what's a cameo" then my interest is gone, FYI this person was a gorgeous athletic brunette.

 

What limits me is what I look for and of course my butt ugly face, skinny athletic body and terrible disdainful personality, the latter a rather recent acquisition to my already fantastically poor amour of dating skills. The fact I have never had any female friends should I guess tell you everything you need to know.

 

So, initiate or not? May as well flip a coin and hope for the best because you can read what you want, do what you want but every person is different so you may get lucky or you may not, is the rejection worth it, absolutely if you can find one amazing experience in 20 then I guess it is but when all 20 have been bad then its clear the issue isn't with society its with YOU.

 

 

1. Because I'm tellinggg you it's not!! Just because you see no problem with it doesn't mean the rest of the world or the single women you're after feel the same way. The general reaction to those questions so soon in meeting someone would be negative and confused. Because a couple of women indulged you and talked about it doesn't mean they were thrilled and happy that the discussion was about it in the first place. And did it work out with those women? So clearly they weren't into the overall date.

 

2. Of course people will want to discuss further things besides the mundane "where ya from, what do you do" questions. But going from "yea I lived in South Carolina for a few years" right into "so what are your thoughts on the recent massacre that occurred there?" Isn't dating etiquette and won't attract her to you. There's a lot that people tell you that you reply with "well I don't feel that way or I don't think that, or that's not me" and just to be blunt, like it or not, these are the way things are. Purposely going against the grain when you know the perception of it wil be bad is just poor judgment and stubbornness.

 

3. General knowledge is such a vague thing to say and want from someone. Just because you consider something general knowledge doesn't mean that the person you're with is well versed in the matter. People come from all kinds of backgrounds and upbringings so just because you know this list of things, doesn't mean that that person necessarily will or should be faulted because they don't. Clearly if they don't know what 10% of 100 is then you can inquire as to their knowledge of math but what the heck is math coming up on a date for anyways?

 

4. You really discarded a gorgeous girl because she didn't know what the word cameo meant? Are the women you look for supposed to be a verbal dictionary and know the meaning of every word in the English language otherwise you cast them into the "beauty but dumb as a wall" category? What if she lacked the vocabulary of a rhode scholar but was absolutely brilliant in an area that you know nothing about? You'll never know. She could've had a multitude of knowledge and background in a wide range of areas and experience but because she wasn't a human dictionary for one word you judged the rest of her and passed?! Jeez man cmon... I'm sure that if a woman did that to you and was that picky about what came out of your mouth you'd stand no chance. You're looking for reasons not to get to know these women then complaining that no one likes you.

 

And the friends that told you to wear jeans. What the heck is the big deal to just wear a pair of jeans??! It's not a political stance against free speech where you need to make a federal case about it. They're offering a piece of advice that is incredibly easy to do and changes absolutely nothing about who you are as a person yet you are 100% opposed to it because "I shouldn't have to wear what i don't wanna wear just because women like that". My 4 year old nephew does that when I tell him he's gotta wear long sleeves under his football jersey because it's cold out. "I don't wanna wear sleeves, it's not comfortable and I'm not Doing it!"

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

ya there have been times I have hated, despised, loathed being the initiator so damn much, it has made me feel like hitting, punching a random dudes lights out for questioning my masculinity, telling me to Man Up, Be a Man, Grow a Pair, Grow some Balls, basically I've always hated, despised, loathed, on how strong, tough, life, reality, society, culture, expects of us guys, that's how much I detest gender roles.

[elaine567]

I think another element that is missing is "fun", dating is supposed to be fun.

Yes it is scary and yes there is lot of anxiety involved, but there has to be a fun element.

Discussing massacres and riots is not "fun" to most people, discussing politics, religion and current affairs in general can be divisive, so general chit chat is the name of the game, whilst getting to know someone.

 

Yes, current affairs can be introduced if the conversation veers that way, but better lighter than darker.

NO girl wants to be out on a date with a guy she doesn't know, who is apparently fascinated by violence, riots, death and the escapades of the latest serial killer. It may be "current affairs" but not only is it not "fun", it is depressing too and perhaps a tad scary.

 

Also young people in their twenties are wait for it - young.

ON dates, they want to discuss the topics of the moment, topics pertinent to their generation, and usually topics that tend to be upbeat and humorous. Going out with someone who talks more like their dad than a potential bf, is not considered "fun".

YOU have to up your game here.

 

YOU are looking for 24 yo women who are in essence, carbon copies of your friends and as your friends are 40-45 and married that is a big ask.

Each generation has its own topics of discussion, depending on the life stage they are at. They are interested in whatever impacts their own lives.

YOU apparently want a 24yo with the brain and interests of a 40-45yo and that is not really possible.

[lollipopspot]

basically I've always hated, despised, loathed, on how strong, tough, life, reality, society, culture, expects of us guys, that's how much I detest gender roles.

 

Then you should read up on and be sympathetic towards radical feminism, because the basis is that gender roles are constructed, and limit both sexes.

[elaine567]

ya there have been times I have hated, despised, loathed being the initiator so damn much, it has made me feel like hitting, punching a random dudes lights out for questioning my masculinity, telling me to Man Up, Be a Man, Grow a Pair, Grow some Balls, basically I've always hated, despised, loathed, on how strong, tough, life, reality, society, culture, expects of us guys, that's how much I detest gender roles.

 

And that is exactly why you are unsuccessful with women.

 

Women and people in general do not like anger, hatred, bitterness and resentment, they do not like seething men who rail against society. YOU may think you hide it by being the NICE guy, but most women are pretty clued up and can spot intrinsic hatred a mile off. ONLY those women with issues themselves will take that on.

Relationships are hard enough with calm, laid back people, without willingly taking on a guy whose mind is like a cesspit of vipers.

Sort yourself out here, only YOU can solve this.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

And that is exactly why you are unsuccessful with women.

 

Women and people in general do not like anger, hatred, bitterness and resentment, they do not like seething men who rail against society. YOU may think you hide it by being the NICE guy, but most women are pretty clued up and can spot intrinsic hatred a mile off. ONLY those women with issues themselves will take that on.

Relationships are hard enough with calm, laid back people, without willingly taking on a guy whose mind is like a cesspit of vipers.

Sort yourself out here, only YOU can solve this.

 

Well hearing those phrases over and over, for most guys it's not uncommon to hear those phrases starting at puberty and for the rest of your life and eventually it can get annoying, I believe that's normal and natural

[elaine567]

The truth is that life is hard and we all have at some point to grow up and be adults. Men and women.

We have to make our own luck.

No-one is just going date you, because you are so freaking awesome, they date you because you are someone of interest to them.

In order to be of interest, you have to cultivate an interesting life, you have to adopt good traits, good ways of thinking and good ways of behaving. No-one is going to want to follow someone they do not respect.

In order to get women to like you, you have to have something to offer them and I do not mean financial or material wealth there. In order to get anyone at all to like you, you have to like yourself.

 

If you find you are unsuccessful, you modify yourself, you modify your target audience, you take a long hard look at WHY you are failing.

YOU do not sit in a corner and go "WAH! WAH! WAH! It's not fair, I hate gender stereotypes." like a big kid.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

The truth is that life is hard and we all have at some point to grow up and be adults. Men and women.

We have to make our own luck.

No-one is just going date you, because you are so freaking awesome, they date you because you are someone of interest to them.

In order to be of interest, you have to cultivate an interesting life, you have to adopt good traits, good ways of thinking and good ways of behaving. No-one is going to want to follow someone they do not respect.

In order to get women to like you, you have to have something to offer them and I do not mean financial or material wealth there. In order to get anyone at all to like you, you have to like yourself.

 

If you find you are unsuccessful, you modify yourself, you modify your target audience, you take a long hard look at WHY you are failing.

YOU do not sit in a corner and go "WAH! WAH! WAH! It's not fair, I hate gender stereotypes." like a big kid.

 

So your saying the reality of life is that we often have to do things we hate?

[elaine567]

So your saying the reality of life is that we often have to do things we hate?

 

Of course it is.

[ZA Dater]

 

4. You really discarded a gorgeous girl because she didn't know what the word cameo meant? Are the women you look for supposed to be a verbal dictionary and know the meaning of every word in the English language otherwise you cast them into the "beauty but dumb as a wall" category? What if she lacked the vocabulary of a rhode scholar but was absolutely brilliant in an area that you know nothing about? You'll never know. She could've had a multitude of knowledge and background in a wide range of areas and experience but because she wasn't a human dictionary for one word you judged the rest of her and passed?! Jeez man cmon... I'm sure that if a woman did that to you and was that picky about what came out of your mouth you'd stand no chance. You're looking for reasons not to get to know these women then complaining that no one likes you.

 

And the friends that told you to wear jeans. What the heck is the big deal to just wear a pair of jeans??! It's not a political stance against free speech where you need to make a federal case about it. They're offering a piece of advice that is incredibly easy to do and changes absolutely nothing about who you are as a person yet you are 100% opposed to it because "I shouldn't have to wear what i don't wanna wear just because women like that". My 4 year old nephew does that when I tell him he's gotta wear long sleeves under his football jersey because it's cold out. "I don't wanna wear sleeves, it's not comfortable and I'm not Doing it!"

 

Why must I wear something I am not comfortable wearing to appear PERHAPS one female?

 

Does that make sense and is that logical, being uncomfortable in the vague hope? I am sorry but to me that the just totally illogical in the extreme.

 

I never stand a chance anyway irrespective of what I say.

[ZA Dater]

I think another element that is missing is "fun", dating is supposed to be fun.

Yes it is scary and yes there is lot of anxiety involved, but there has to be a fun element.

Discussing massacres and riots is not "fun" to most people, discussing politics, religion and current affairs in general can be divisive, so general chit chat is the name of the game, whilst getting to know someone.

 

Yes, current affairs can be introduced if the conversation veers that way, but better lighter than darker.

NO girl wants to be out on a date with a guy she doesn't know, who is apparently fascinated by violence, riots, death and the escapades of the latest serial killer. It may be "current affairs" but not only is it not "fun", it is depressing too and perhaps a tad scary.

 

Also young people in their twenties are wait for it - young.

ON dates, they want to discuss the topics of the moment, topics pertinent to their generation, and usually topics that tend to be upbeat and humorous. Going out with someone who talks more like their dad than a potential bf, is not considered "fun".

YOU have to up your game here.

 

YOU are looking for 24 yo women who are in essence, carbon copies of your friends and as your friends are 40-45 and married that is a big ask.

Each generation has its own topics of discussion, depending on the life stage they are at. They are interested in whatever impacts their own lives.

YOU apparently want a 24yo with the brain and interests of a 40-45yo and that is not really possible.

 

Tell me, what is "fun" exactly? I am genuinely curious as to what fun is, is fun smiling and laughing? If I smile once a day its lot, I suppose its terrible to be serious too?

 

Not for want of trying I cannot seem to do general chit chat, sure if someone has a particular interest that makes things easier because one can zone in on that BUT and I include MOST females I have ever met, NEVER do that take any interest or ask me anything about ME. Its always about them.

 

What is relevant to 20's, I honestly have no idea? The last one the one I keep going on about here could talk about anything, charities, wine, fashion, cooking, food, hospitality. Unfortunately that talent I discovered is exceedingly rare, well rare because I one found it once. She is 24.

 

My disdain comes from the fact that all dating and chasing does is make me feel like even more a POS. More of a looser, more like a reject. Why because EVERYTHING I am good at, believe it or not I have some good qualities, just ones which count for nothing in the dating world. Better I start accepting that. Nothing I try or do is EVER good enough, not even good enough to warrant friendship or a chance, that's I ask, a simple chance then sure thrown me away like a POS but at least give me a chance.

 

And people want to know why I wont approach.

 

PS everyone, the model isn't single, she is a friend of a friend who agreed to take me for a makeover

Edited August 28, 2015 by ZA Dater

[elaine567]

Why must I wear something I am not comfortable wearing to appear PERHAPS one female?

 

Does that make sense and is that logical, being uncomfortable in the vague hope? I am sorry but to me that the just totally illogical in the extreme.

 

I never stand a chance anyway irrespective of what I say.

 

Was it your model friend that suggested the jeans?

No-one is meaning that you need to start wearing jeans everywhere you go, but pairs of jeans are an essential for everyone. They add an informality to an occasion, that can lead to a relaxed atmosphere. They can defuse stuffiness.

Depending on the pair, they can be casual or dressy, utilitarian or designer. They are wearable for every age group and body type and can often look amazing. They come in all different styles and no doubt you could find a pair in a colour to suit you.

YOUR refusal to wear jeans, is IMO ridiculous, you are 31 not 71.

They are comfortable and in no way would they make you look strange, so I fail to see why you would be so against wearing them if it may get you a date.

What sort of trousers do you normally wear?

[ZA Dater]

Was it your model friend that suggested the jeans?

No-one is meaning that you need to start wearing jeans everywhere you go, but pairs of jeans are an essential for everyone. They add an informality to an occasion, that can lead to a relaxed atmosphere. They can defuse stuffiness.

Depending on the pair, they can be casual or dressy, utilitarian or designer. They are wearable for every age group and body type and can often look amazing. They come in all different styles and no doubt you could find a pair in a colour to suit you.

YOUR refusal to wear jeans, is IMO ridiculous, you are 31 not 71.

They are comfortable and in no way would they make you look strange, so I fail to see why you would be so against wearing them if it may get you a date.

What sort of trousers do you normally wear?

 

Many people have suggested I wear jeans.

 

I don't because I don't like tight fitting clothing and I don't like thick fabric, jeans are both of those.

 

I usually wear normal fitting trousers, some with a slightly tighter fit than other but none can be construed as body hugging.

[ZA Dater]

Was it your model friend that suggested the jeans?

No-one is meaning that you need to start wearing jeans everywhere you go, but pairs of jeans are an essential for everyone. They add an informality to an occasion, that can lead to a relaxed atmosphere. They can defuse stuffiness.

Depending on the pair, they can be casual or dressy, utilitarian or designer. They are wearable for every age group and body type and can often look amazing. They come in all different styles and no doubt you could find a pair in a colour to suit you.

YOUR refusal to wear jeans, is IMO ridiculous, you are 31 not 71.

They are comfortable and in no way would they make you look strange, so I fail to see why you would be so against wearing them if it may get you a date.

What sort of trousers do you normally wear?

 

That truly made me smile.

[elaine567]

I don't because I don't like tight fitting clothing and I don't like thick fabric, jeans are both of those.

 

They do NOT need to be tight fitting, there are a range of different fits from skinny to relaxed and many jeans are now stretch fit too.

There are may different grades of denim, so they are not all thick.

[ZA Dater]

They do NOT need to be tight fitting, there are a range of different fits from skinny to relaxed and many jeans are now stretch fit too.

There are may different grades of denim, so they are not all thick.

 

Great, I just don't like denim and if that makes me unattractive then so be it.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Last time I got my testosterone level checked, it was 553, that was near the end of last year

[Haydn]

Great, I just don't like denim and if that makes me unattractive then so be it.

 

Paul Smith Men's Designer Jeans | Tapered to Easy Fit in Dark to Light Washes

 

Beautiful jeans......