Am I Receiving Partial Truth?

[fellini]

There are loyal men and women, and there are those who are not loyal, and there seems to be some loyal that turn the other way, and vice versa. It's all difficult to predict sometimes.

 

 

The problem is there are loyal people who believe and would swear on their grave that they would never cheat. Yet they do suddenly find themselves doing precisely that. And there are those who we think would never cheat, but they themselves know they would, are capable of it, have to resist it, even.

 

But we do not have access to those truths.

 

I am quite inclined to believe that my WW was a shocked as anyone else when she found herself in an sordid relationship with a co-worker. More so when she got out of the mess and looked at how far down she had gone and no longer was able to recognise herself.

 

If the journey back is a true one, I think the opposite of many here: there is a better chance that she will not do it again. Not because "she got away with it", because she didn't. The personal shame, pain and suffering, and knowing she almost lost her daughter, could easily have lost her forever, her marriage, her respect... all these things that she holds dear have taken their toll on her, and this is a price to pay, regardless of what others think. NO, it's nowhere close to the pain and suffering of the BS.

 

But that is the reality.

 

To say a WS does not suffer along side the BS is to not have lived through discovery, recovery and reconciliation. We are just over 2 years in, and there are still things to deal with, and the pain is still there for both of us.

 

To go through all this work with me, only to turn away again and do it again, to risk her daughter's unconditional love again - is to imagine I have married a monster. And as I said before: I married a good woman.

Edited September 6, 2015 by fellini

[understand50]

The problem is there are loyal people who believe and would swear on their grave that they would never cheat. Yet they do suddenly find themselves doing precisely that. And there are those who we think would never cheat, but they themselves know they would, are capable of it, have to resist it, even.

 

But we do not have access to those truths.

 

I am quite inclined to believe that my WW was a shocked as anyone else when she found herself in an sordid relationship with a co-worker. More so when she got out of the mess and looked at how far down she had gone and no longer was able to recognise herself.

 

If the journey back is a true one, I think the opposite of many here: there is a better chance that she will not do it again. Not because "she got away with it", because she didn't. The personal shame, pain and suffering, and knowing she almost lost her daughter, could easily have lost her forever, her marriage, her respect... all these things that she holds dear have taken their toll on her, and this is a price to pay, regardless of what others think. NO, it's nowhere close to the pain and suffering of the BS.

 

But that is the reality.

 

To say a WS does not suffer along side the BS is to not have lived through discovery, recovery and reconciliation. We are just over 2 years in, and there are still things to deal with, and the pain is still there for both of us.

 

To go through all this work with me, only to turn away again and do it again, to risk her daughter's unconditional love again - is to imagine I have married a monster. And as I said before: I married a good woman.

 

Tomcook,

 

Again, and I have written this several times, if we believe that good people can do bad things, and then make amends, we must at sometime recognize that they have changed and need to forgive them and move on. Does not mean we forget, just we recognize that the offending spouse, can show remorse and change their behavior. It is the future we should be interested in. One without the WS, as in divorce, or one with the WS, in reconciliation. If we give the WS the gift of a second chance, that we must work with them to make the reconciliation work.

 

It all comes down to this, do you believe that she knows the hurt an pain she has caused you, and shows true remorse, to an extent that you believe she will be faithful to you going forward? With this questioned answered, you can decide what you should do.

 

Wish you luck.

[tomcook]

Tomcook,

 

Again, and I have written this several times, if we believe that good people can do bad things, and then make amends, we must at sometime recognize that they have changed and need to forgive them and move on. Does not mean we forget, just we recognize that the offending spouse, can show remorse and change their behavior. It is the future we should be interested in. One without the WS, as in divorce, or one with the WS, in reconciliation. If we give the WS the gift of a second chance, that we must work with them to make the reconciliation work.

 

It all comes down to this, do you believe that she knows the hurt an pain she has caused you, and shows true remorse, to an extent that you believe she will be faithful to you going forward? With this questioned answered, you can decide what you should do.

 

Wish you luck.

 

Thanks for your post. I know. She doesn't deserve to have someone reminding her of her wrongdoings if she is doing what she can to make amends. I wish I could get over it. I can't even answer that question right now I guess. My mind is on one extreme or the other. I love how bright life looks when thinking of being free and getting a new start. It's exciting. However, I love my wife, but hate the part of her that did this. My wife's situation may have been similar to fellini's. Even she was shocked at how far she had gone. It certainly seems that way when she discusses it sometimes. What makes her cry typically is thinking of how upset I am about it, and I feel for her. I know that has to be a crappy feeling. Perhaps I am not supposed to be ready to answer that question yet. Maybe that's what sticking around and trying for a year is for. Already 6 months in, so I should just hold out and see how everything feels then. I need to get my impulsive, resentful, angry side under control or I may end up doing something stupid. I thought about texting one of the OM's today, and speaking in a calm, professional manner just to see what I could get out of him. I know this is against everyone's advice here, but I felt like I could potentially get something out of it. I'm too impatient. I didn't do it though. Since my first post, so many people told me that there is no doubt she did in fact have sex with them and that I'll never get the truth, so just get out now if that's a dealbreaker. As much as I respect their advice, it would be hard for me to make that decision without more concrete evidence. Anyway, I'm backtracking now. I know I should be staying focused on the present and future to see how well this all goes.

[understand50]

Thanks for your post. I know. She doesn't deserve to have someone reminding her of her wrongdoings if she is doing what she can to make amends. I wish I could get over it. I can't even answer that question right now I guess. My mind is on one extreme or the other. I love how bright life looks when thinking of being free and getting a new start. It's exciting. However, I love my wife, but hate the part of her that did this. My wife's situation may have been similar to fellini's. Even she was shocked at how far she had gone. It certainly seems that way when she discusses it sometimes. What makes her cry typically is thinking of how upset I am about it, and I feel for her. I know that has to be a crappy feeling. Perhaps I am not supposed to be ready to answer that question yet. Maybe that's what sticking around and trying for a year is for. Already 6 months in, so I should just hold out and see how everything feels then. I need to get my impulsive, resentful, angry side under control or I may end up doing something stupid. I thought about texting one of the OM's today, and speaking in a calm, professional manner just to see what I could get out of him. I know this is against everyone's advice here, but I felt like I could potentially get something out of it. I'm too impatient. I didn't do it though. Since my first post, so many people told me that there is no doubt she did in fact have sex with them and that I'll never get the truth, so just get out now if that's a dealbreaker. As much as I respect their advice, it would be hard for me to make that decision without more concrete evidence. Anyway, I'm backtracking now. I know I should be staying focused on the present and future to see how well this all goes.

 

Tomcook,

 

Be careful not to set up the catch 22 of, "be truthful, and if the truth is X, then I will divorce you". If you really want the truth, you may have to say to her, I value honesty above all, tell he what happen and if it checks out, we can reconcile. If you lie, and I will check out your story, I will divorce you. You may also remind her that these thing do come out with all the number of people that know of what happened.

 

Taking divorce off the table may be the only way to get the whole truth from her. Of course, you must decide for yourself if her having full on sex is the deal breaker. If it is not, and you need to know, this is I think the only way.

 

My 2 cents, and good luck.

[tomcook]

Tomcook,

 

Be careful not to set up the catch 22 of, "be truthful, and if the truth is X, then I will divorce you". If you really want the truth, you may have to say to her, I value honesty above all, tell he what happen and if it checks out, we can reconcile. If you lie, and I will check out your story, I will divorce you. You may also remind her that these thing do come out with all the number of people that know of what happened.

 

Taking divorce off the table may be the only way to get the whole truth from her. Of course, you must decide for yourself if her having full on sex is the deal breaker. If it is not, and you need to know, this is I think the only way.

 

My 2 cents, and good luck.

 

That's a pretty good idea. Full on sex is pretty much the deal breaker, even though I said she would not face any backlash for saying anything. I know that's kindave messed up. I mean, I will try to work on it still if that is the case, but ****, that would be a hard one to overcome. Regardless, I want to know, no matter how much it may hurt me. Can I still apply do you think?

[Popsicle]

There is a HUGE difference between saying "any good person can cheat" and "all women and all men cheat". I said the former, not the later as you seem to suggest.

 

Maybe the issue is with your understanding of the english language, but I think my point was clear. I married what I believed to be a good woman 20 years ago. She cheated on me. This does not mean that I didnt marry a good woman. I did and she cheated. Other people marry a good person, and they do not.

 

It's not even necessary to believe that "we are all capable of cheating". I dont think that assertion is provable either way. But it is altogether clear that we can marry someone we believe to be incapable of cheating on us, only to find out somewhere along the path, that they can, and they did, or they are.

 

Your message was not clear at all. Maybe the issue is with the way you communicated it, not my understanding of the english language. Go back and reread your message. You say " Not all good women cheat. But good women do." How is that not confusing? You also said that it is a fools promise to think that a good woman will not cheat. I think that is a defeatist attitude that allows one to accept this behavior. I don't agree with it and think it's better to have more faith and trust in people. Whatever you think, we probably will never agree because you have been betrayed and that helps form your beliefs.

[Mz. Pixie]

Mz. Pixie, I appreciate your bluntness, and I appreciate hearing this opinion from a veteran of LS and a previous WW. I see. How do you know though, since every individual and situation is unique? I'm not trying to deny it. If it is highly likely, I want to know obviously, but I am worried that if I listen to your opinion or the ones like it, how sure of my conviction can I really be? About the contact thing, she has been doing a decent job. It's just there are occasions like that every now and then. Also, regarding the tears, when you say "All for her" do you mean she's crying because of how devastating it is to herself that she got caught? Do you mean she's flat-out lying and there is no remorse there? On ereason I ask all of this Mz. Pixie is because I've seen you promote repairing relationships in some other posts, so it made me wonder what you saw different in my situation. You obviously have wisdom and firsthand experience, so I would love to hear more of your take on all of this.

 

When you're cheating you're really in a fog. You are not concerned with anyone else but yourself and getting your fix. Regret and shame are not immediately what you're feeling. I absolutely do think she's turning on the tears because she got caught. Not because she is sorry. Or right now at any rate.

 

The reason right now I'm not advocating to you to reconcile is Number 1-the number of men. Number 2-that I don't believe she has done any of the hard work of recovery. You are. Number 3- you're young and have no kids with this woman.

 

If I'm missing her doing some hard work please let me know-I could have missed it. The sheer fact that it was several guys around the same time seems that she likes risky behavior. Has she ever been diagnosed bipolar?

 

Also I caution you about revealing your support group to her. I've read cases where the BH's post came back to haunt him in divorce.

 

Tell you what. Tell her to work on recovery you're going to need a polygraph. Schedule it. Then see if she balks or comes clean. She could be telling the truth however she would be probably one of the few I've ever read of doing so.

 

I will be around keeping up.

[Mz. Pixie]

Yeah, she has gone over the top to convince me that there is truly nothing more that she can say. In fact, she said she's not going to fabricate something that didn't happen just to satisfy me. It's those words that put me in a difficult spot. It leaves me asking myself, "Is she maybe telling the truth, or not?"

 

Ugh. Have you read here? They all LIE. I'm not going to fabricate something. How about "sweetheart I hate how this is tearing you apart. What can I do to make this better for you?"

 

It's almost like she's saying I'm done talking about this-lets move on.

[Mz. Pixie]

Last thought for tonight after reading all. I read something you wrote about how you like spending time with her and watching your favorite shows.

 

That's comfort. Not love.

 

Has she ever-ever-expressed dissatisfaction in your marriage? Not blaming you. Just curious. Seems strange to go from OK to getting fingered in a few days.

[understand50]

That's a pretty good idea. Full on sex is pretty much the deal breaker, even though I said she would not face any backlash for saying anything. I know that's kindave messed up. I mean, I will try to work on it still if that is the case, but ****, that would be a hard one to overcome. Regardless, I want to know, no matter how much it may hurt me. Can I still apply do you think?

 

Tomcook,

 

Yes, but you will really have to take divorce off the table. You can not lie to her, get your information, and then divorce. That is my standard, and would involve my honor as a man.

 

Decide beforehand, if they had full on sex, I will and can reconcile with her, if she tells me the whole truth. If you cannot really do this, then do not make the offer.

 

You can overcome anything, if you want to. If she then confesses, it will hurt, but not knowing seems to be more of an issue. You can then at least have a open honest heart to heart talk will everything in the open. You could say, please tell me the truth and I will give you 18 months to reconcile, and we can then decide as a couple if the marriage should go on. May be giving her a path forward, will do as well.

 

Right now, she has no reason to be truthful and the fall out is bad. Not telling anything or half lies, keeps you guessing and she thinks she can win you back. In her mind time is on her side.

 

my 2 cents

[drifter777]

Read some of the dozens of BH threads here that start with "she swears she didn't have sex with him". They tell us the facts as they know them and pretty much everyone sees what he doesn't want to see. We tell him how her story is incredulous; it's obvious she's lying - they had sex. And then out of all those threads find one where she wasn't lying. Even one that ended up that she didn't have sex.

 

Stop making your decisions based on fantasy.

[sandylee1]

Thank you SandyLee. I hope you, and everyone here, can forgive me for the details I shared in that previous post. I would never ever consider myself as someone that was not loyal, but I briefly fit those shoes. Terrible. Anyway, thank you for your honest post. I will work as hard as I can to make it to the end of the one year mark. I am graduating in December (Yayyy!) so I know there will be a lot of stress in the house. Please do not go anywhere SandyLee, haha. I'll need your advice in the coming months.

 

Oh, and you're absolutely right. Three guys that she had been having an EA with for months is not a mistake. That is an extended string of bad decisions that she enjoyed while it lasted.

 

 

Tom,

 

I'm not sure what post you are referring to, I was just sent that message in isolation, but I'm more than happy to offer my advice in the future and lend a listening ear. In case miss your post please PM me.

 

I think what all BSs need to know is that even if the WS puts in 100% effort to reconcile, sometimes the damage is done. That breach of trust and confidence is gone. The hurt and the having to see the person who caused the hurt every day is sometimes just too much.

 

Now, in your case, I don't think your wife is anywhere close to putting in 100%. So proceed with caution Tom.

 

I'll tell you briefly about the words a BH said that brought a tear to my eyes. He said his wife had ruined two important speeches he would make in his life. His retirement speech and the one at his daughter's wedding.

 

He planned to say she was always there for him, with love and relentless support and that behind every successful man there's a good woman. He was unable to say those things and it broke his heart.

 

He couldn't say she was a great mom as planned in the wedding speech. He wanted to say she was always their for their daughter , but he knew of the times she spent with the OM when her daughter had a sporting event etc, as discovered through emails.

 

Reconciliation is a tough road and the WS NEEDS to be humble and grateful for the chance. Anything less isn't good enough.

[tomcook]

Last thought for tonight after reading all. I read something you wrote about how you like spending time with her and watching your favorite shows.

 

That's comfort. Not love.

 

Has she ever-ever-expressed dissatisfaction in your marriage? Not blaming you. Just curious. Seems strange to go from OK to getting fingered in a few days.

 

Hey Mz. Pixie, thanks for all of your responses. I enjoy reading them a lot, as well as everyone else's. I sit here and wait all day for someone to post something on my thread, haha. Let's see. You are correct about number 1 and number 3 in your reasons for not recommending reconciliation. Three guys, and we have no kids. As far as the heavy lifting goes, I can't say definitively. She did a crappy job until I made my post the other day and basically gave her the ultimatum that I will leave in heartbeat if things don't change. By crappy job, I mean she was still transparent, tried to keep me updated, erased most male contacts I disapproved of, decreased her activity on Snapchat, social media, allowed me to look at her phone whenever, but the arguments remained the same, the way she treated me was the same, and her willingness to talk about the infidelity was also crap. Since that ultimatum however (literally 3 or 4 days ago) I can tell she has tried. She apologizes for lots of things. Tries to stay calm and respectful to me. She has constantly given me an "I love you" throughout the day. She has agreed to set aside time to talk about the infidelity and hasn't had any outbursts when I try to discuss it outside of those times (we haven't had a proper sit-down yet). So, yes, I believe I scared the crap out of her when I showed serious signs of walking out the door. However, she still insists that I know everything there is to know, and that it was actually a relief for her to get it all off her chest at once. Hope that covers that part.

 

Regarding the polygraph, I love that idea, as I've told others. I'm a little concerned with the cost because I just don't have that much on me at the moment. Any recommendations on how to get around this, and how to approach her in regards to reconciliation depending on results of polygraph?

 

As far as the "not going to fabricate something" goes, I love what you have to say. It only reinforces what I already would like to believe. I do not believe I know everything because it is too damn hard to be honest to someone you've already broken down so much, and especially since it might push me over the edge.

 

Let's see. So you believe that it is comfort. That is an interesting take. My own confusing emotions further confuse me. However, if it just comfort, it would make me feel a lot more comfortable doing whatever I have to do to follow my gut and make myself happy in the long run. In that case, what is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more, haha. I had to throw that in there. I love that song. Laughter is sometimes pretty good medicine. I would say yes, she has expressed some dissatisfaction with the way we were doing things as a couple on many occasions, especially after arguments. I was always passive though. I wanted to be nice and make her happy, and I thought she held the same values as me, which maybe she does, but she let herself make some very, very crappy, hurtful decisions. When I first found out, she basically blamed me and said that we had problems, and it's like I'm aware that we had problems but what you did in less than a week's time is insane. Things were fine, in my opinion, right before. She has since (in the past couple of days) said that she takes responsibility for it. It wasn't my fault, and all of that. But yeah, I had just bought her a new phone, and it was a couple of weeks after my birthday. I had been making her dinner all the time. Then one day after an argument, she goes and ****s around with 3 other guys. All the "we had problems" I do believe, but I think that was originally bull**** because she was having multiple EA's in my opinion long before any of this ever happened.

[tomcook]

Read some of the dozens of BH threads here that start with "she swears she didn't have sex with him". They tell us the facts as they know them and pretty much everyone sees what he doesn't want to see. We tell him how her story is incredulous; it's obvious she's lying - they had sex. And then out of all those threads find one where she wasn't lying. Even one that ended up that she didn't have sex.

 

Stop making your decisions based on fantasy.

 

I believe you drifter, especially given the experience. Obviously, you're very passionate about what you say. I actually did try to find some of those posts, but was having trouble finding any just now. Can you direct me to any when/if you have a moment? One of the main reasons I am giving her the benefit of the doubt is because on that slim chance she is telling the truth, I wouldn't want to say things/do things I would later regret. However, I do agree, I shouldn't believe this crap, even if she is seemingly sincere with all the info she has offered.

[SummerDreams]

Tom I understand your strong will that things are not as bad. I understand you want to go back to your life before the terrible discoveries, but I need to give you a wake up call. Nothing will be the same anymore because she chose to throw your vows out of the window and do things she KNEW would hurt you to death. In my eyes you did marry a good woman as fellini said but she is not a good woman / wife anymore after what she did. This is the key point I disagree with what some of you have said. What is a good wife? One who loves and respects her husband, honors her marriage, cares for his happiness and does her best to maintain it. If one part of this equation is eliminated, then this woman is not a good wife anymore. You seem to be really interested in whether she actually had sex with these guys or not. I am sorry to say but I think this is a way to justify in your eyes your inability / weakness / fear to leave her. If you did know she had sex with them, you would find another dealbreaker you would not know about (like, she had wild or vanilla sex with them) in order to justify your staying. As I see it, the second a person gets intimate around another person who is not their spouse, little does it matter whether they do have sex or not. It is like a kid who steals the box with the candies. It already stole it, does it matter whether it eats them or not? Does it matter to a jury whether a thief will spend the money he stole or not? The bad act was that he stole it. I think you get my point. If my bf found himself in a position where he would be kissing and touching another woman, do I need more evidence that he does not care for me anymore? Are there things a cheater can do that do NOT show disrespect towards their spouse? Are some cheating acts OK? Well not in my eyes. The moment I am not the woman you desire or confide in anymore, I see no reason of what you can do to prove me that I am. Either I am or I am not, you know what I mean?

 

It just makes me sad. So many single good women and good men accept such disrespect and forgive other women. Sad.

[tomcook]

Tom,

 

I'm not sure what post you are referring to, I was just sent that message in isolation, but I'm more than happy to offer my advice in the future and lend a listening ear. In case miss your post please PM me.

 

I think what all BSs need to know is that even if the WS puts in 100% effort to reconcile, sometimes the damage is done. That breach of trust and confidence is gone. The hurt and the having to see the person who caused the hurt every day is sometimes just too much.

 

Now, in your case, I don't think your wife is anywhere close to putting in 100%. So proceed with caution Tom.

 

I'll tell you briefly about the words a BH said that brought a tear to my eyes. He said his wife had ruined two important speeches he would make in his life. His retirement speech and the one at his daughter's wedding.

 

He planned to say she was always there for him, with love and relentless support and that behind every successful man there's a good woman. He was unable to say those things and it broke his heart.

 

He couldn't say she was a great mom as planned in the wedding speech. He wanted to say she was always their for their daughter , but he knew of the times she spent with the OM when her daughter had a sporting event etc, as discovered through emails.

 

Reconciliation is a tough road and the WS NEEDS to be humble and grateful for the chance. Anything less isn't good enough.

 

Hello Sandylee, thanks for the late response. I see. Maybe I am too sympathetic. I mean since the ultimatum a few days ago, as I mentioned earlier, she has been a lot more cautious of how she treats me. She apologizes, and doesn't flip out when I bring up the infidelity. She has even agreed to have talks about it, and read "Things Every Wayward Spouse Should Know" if it is what I wanted her to do (she didn't want to otherwise). I know you've heard me mention that a few times, but I wanted to make sure that's still not considered 100% of the heavy lifting.

 

I think you hit what I've been trying to figure out spot on when you said sometimes the damage is already done no matter how much effort the WS puts into R. I think that is how I feel right at the moment. I think despite my fondness for her at this stage, just knowing the damage she did to me emotionally, and knowing the hurt she's caused me makes me to retain those negative feelings all the time, no matter how nice she is, no matter how much we laugh, it's almost always there in the back of my mind. It's really not fair to her when she seems to be SO loving. I can't help it some days though. It's not always overwhelming, but there is not a day that goes by that I don't think of it, or hear something she says that reminds me of it. Triggers and negative emotions everywhere. Currently, 7 months post D-Day, I feel like the prospects of the outside world are more enticing to me than ever before, but I know I am still in a recovery phase and my emotions are running wild, so I can't make any regrettable decisions, because once I'm gone, I'm gone. I'm doing my best here. I will proceed with caution though. That story, by the way, was a tearjerker. Very hard to think of how that poor man must have felt. So much sadness and devastation all for a cheap thrill.

[tomcook]

Tom I understand your strong will that things are not as bad. I understand you want to go back to your life before the terrible discoveries, but I need to give you a wake up call. Nothing will be the same anymore because she chose to throw your vows out of the window and do things she KNEW would hurt you to death. In my eyes you did marry a good woman as fellini said but she is not a good woman / wife anymore after what she did. This is the key point I disagree with what some of you have said. What is a good wife? One who loves and respects her husband, honors her marriage, cares for his happiness and does her best to maintain it. If one part of this equation is eliminated, then this woman is not a good wife anymore. You seem to be really interested in whether she actually had sex with these guys or not. I am sorry to say but I think this is a way to justify in your eyes your inability / weakness / fear to leave her. If you did know she had sex with them, you would find another dealbreaker you would not know about (like, she had wild or vanilla sex with them) in order to justify your staying. As I see it, the second a person gets intimate around another person who is not their spouse, little does it matter whether they do have sex or not. It is like a kid who steals the box with the candies. It already stole it, does it matter whether it eats them or not? Does it matter to a jury whether a thief will spend the money he stole or not? The bad act was that he stole it. I think you get my point. If my bf found himself in a position where he would be kissing and touching another woman, do I need more evidence that he does not care for me anymore? Are there things a cheater can do that do NOT show disrespect towards their spouse? Are some cheating acts OK? Well not in my eyes. The moment I am not the woman you desire or confide in anymore, I see no reason of what you can do to prove me that I am. Either I am or I am not, you know what I mean?

 

It just makes me sad. So many single good women and good men accept such disrespect and forgive other women. Sad.

 

God, you're going to make me break down here SummerDreams. I know. I know it is probably a justification of my inability to take a strong action against this. The whole damn thing is wrong. I know that. I said it so many times to her over the years. I would say that I have zero tolerance for ANY, ANY form of cheating, whether it be sex or even kissing. Anything, even once. No second chances. Divorce. I didn't keep my own word, and wondered why, and I think you have summed it up. I'm too afraid to do it, I feel too sorry for her when I shouldn't, I feel like divorcing is running away, I feel so much crap right now. That is why I keep hoping she will be cruel or I'll find out she's cheating once again, so I can say, "Now I really don't feel sorry for you." It's stupid. I know. I don't know what in the world is going through my head. You all write such heartfelt posts, and I read them. I do. I just can't bring myself to move to the other side. One minute, I want to reconcile, and the next I want to leave and be free, but it's so hard to take that kind of action after she cried on my shoulder, told me how much she loved me, and begged me not to leave. She herself at many points said that she wouldn't blame me if I wanted to leave, although it would make her tremendously sad. I don't know why my wife has such a hold on me. I sympathize with her. Her tears pull away at my heart, and it's just so hard. I get it. I know you think there are many good single men and women out there while so many men and women are forgiving undeserving spouses. It's true. Despite knowing that, it is still hard for me. I get stronger every day I am on here though. Every day I read posts from all of you, I get a little bit stronger. In fact, the ultimatum that I made was made possible by all of you. I know, with your continued support, I will eventually be strong and make the right choice, regardless of what it ends up being.

[fellini]

Wait a second! Your response was "It's ridiculous to spend the rest of your life thinking all women and all men cheat..."

 

This suggests that you were not confused about what I said. You believed I said that. And I am saying, you misread my post. Now you want to say it was "not clear at all"? Wouldn't the appropriate response, if that were the case have been "Are you trying to say..." or "I don't understand your logic..."

 

No, you said I was ridiculous for believing all women and men cheat... That does not sound like someone responding to a confusing post.

 

 

Actually I have been an English teacher since 1995, so I do know that saying:

 

Not all good women cheat. (Means that not ALL good women cheat)

But good women cheat. (Means that although not ALL good women cheat, some good women DO. i.e. Being GOOD does not exempt one from being unfaithful at some point)

 

That is how our language works.

 

Because there are some people in LS who believe that cheating has something to do with "BEING A GOOD Person" vs. "Behaving ALWAYS in a good way". There are even some that think we are wired genetically to cheat. If we cheat, we have the wires, those of us who do not have the wires, don't. Lame as that sounds, there are people who believe it.

 

Further, to say that "it is a fools promise to think that a good woman will not cheat" is not the same thing as saying "it is a fools promise to think that all good woman will not cheat"

 

I have never said, nor even suggested, in any of my 1150 posts that I believe ALL good woman cheat, nor have I even said that I believe that ALL good woman are CAPABLE of cheating. I simply do not see being a GOOD WOMAN synonymous with the inability TO cheat.

 

 

 

Your message was not clear at all. Maybe the issue is with the way you communicated it, not my understanding of the english language. Go back and reread your message. You say " Not all good women cheat. But good women do." How is that not confusing? You also said that it is a fools promise to think that a good woman will not cheat. I think that is a defeatist attitude that allows one to accept this behavior. I don't agree with it and think it's better to have more faith and trust in people. Whatever you think, we probably will never agree because you have been betrayed and that helps form your beliefs.

Edited September 7, 2015 by fellini

[fellini]

You are not alone in this. Many people believe in the zero tolerance, or thought they did, until... MANY a GOOD MAN believed in this. I'm sure it's even possible your WW did believe that once too.

 

I have even listened to people say (about learning that a friend was having an affair) "That piece of sh-t. I hope she dumps his arse on the curb and take him for everything he's got" And when you ask them, "but you had an affair too, why did you deserve a 2nd chance"!

 

"My case is different. I still love my husband..."

 

On and on it goes. We have to live with our contradictions, especially when those contradictions are between theory and experience. It's one thing to think what you will do IF something happens, and quite another to actually do it.

 

This does not get you off the hook about your fear of leaving.

You own that, she does not. But she will use it if you continue to let her.

 

For me, the issue was NEVER feeling sorry for my wife feeling sorry for what she had done to ME. She had to FEEL sorry for WHAT SHE DID TO HERSELF. Obviously she has to show REMORSE. But if the only thing is her expression of what she has done TO you, to make you FEEL so destroyed, then this "sympathy" (because it is not necessarily true empathy) will only last as long as you stay in "broken" mode. Once you are back on your feet, what? She can go back to feeling good about herself?

 

Do you think your wife has CRIED for the marriage? For what she has done? Does she look back upon her actions - outside of thinking about you - and feel the horror of how far down she was able to go before crawling out of that whole?

 

It's not just about lying to you - that is your trauma. It is about the complete and utter SELF DECEPTION that allowed her to continue on a path she knew (not because of vows, but because of her own moral universe) was the wrong path, and did not only nothing to stop herself, but continued to make more decisions along a hundred other opportunities without hesitation.

 

The question of will she cheat again or not begins with self deception, not with honouring your marriage. As sad as that seems, without one, the other is just wishful thinking.

 

For this reason the road is long and hard for both of you. But it's not traveled taking the express route. It is not a 6 month journey to say the least.

 

And it is not a journey about the two of you repairing you. It is also the journey that she MUST take to reconcile the woman she believed she was with the woman who did those things. She has to repair herself.

 

Have a look with your WW (or a second look if you saw it before DDAy) at the movie WILD with Reese Witherspoon to get an idea, and listen also to the comments in the extras made by the woman who wrote the book the movie is based upon. There is much food for thought in that woman's journey.

 

 

God, you're going to make me break down here SummerDreams. I know. I know it is probably a justification of my inability to take a strong action against this. The whole damn thing is wrong. I know that. I said it so many times to her over the years. I would say that I have zero tolerance for ANY, ANY form of cheating, whether it be sex or even kissing. Anything, even once. No second chances. Divorce. I didn't keep my own word, and wondered why, and I think you have summed it up. I'm too afraid to do it, I feel too sorry for her when I shouldn't, I feel like divorcing is running away, I feel so much crap right now. That is why I keep hoping she will be cruel or I'll find out she's cheating once again, so I can say, "Now I really don't feel sorry for you." It's stupid. I know. I don't know what in the world is going through my head. You all write such heartfelt posts, and I read them. I do. I just can't bring myself to move to the other side. One minute, I want to reconcile, and the next I want to leave and be free, but it's so hard to take that kind of action after she cried on my shoulder, told me how much she loved me, and begged me not to leave. She herself at many points said that she wouldn't blame me if I wanted to leave, although it would make her tremendously sad. I don't know why my wife has such a hold on me. I sympathize with her. Her tears pull away at my heart, and it's just so hard. I get it. I know you think there are many good single men and women out there while so many men and women are forgiving undeserving spouses. It's true. Despite knowing that, it is still hard for me. I get stronger every day I am on here though. Every day I read posts from all of you, I get a little bit stronger. In fact, the ultimatum that I made was made possible by all of you. I know, with your continued support, I will eventually be strong and make the right choice, regardless of what it ends up being.

Edited September 7, 2015 by fellini

[SummerDreams]

I had read somewhere how an OW or OM feels about leaving the affair; if they leave and go NC it is like having a huge knife wound that will hurt like hell for some time but eventually it will heal, but if they stay they will have a minor wound that will hurt a bit every day but will never heal. It is like taking off a bandaid. This is what you choose to do. You choose to have the little pain every day with some happiness instead of taking the huge pain that will eventually be gone and you will find the full happiness.

[sandylee1]

Hello Sandylee, thanks for the late response. Maybe I am too sympathetic.

 

YOU ARE

 

 

I think you hit what I've been trying to figure out spot on when you said sometimes the damage is already done no matter how much effort the WS puts into R.

 

AND LET'S BE HONEST HERE, SHE ISN'T BUSTING HER BEHIND RIGHT NOW TO SHOW REMORSE.

 

I think that is how I feel right at the moment. I think despite my fondness for her at this stage, just knowing the damage she did to me emotionally, and knowing the hurt she's caused me makes me to retain those negative feelings all the time, no matter how nice she is, no matter how much we laugh, it's almost always there in the back of my mind. It's really not fair to her when she seems to be SO loving.

 

Don't be manipulated. You've seen how other WWs act all sorry but get talking about their BH on the VAR.

I'd expect a WS down on their knees apologising and begging AND ACTUALLY finding out by themselves what steps they need to take. Not the BS having to tell them and them 'agreeing ' to talk about the affair/s, as though you should be grateful for that.

[Popsicle]

Wait a second! Your response was "It's ridiculous to spend the rest of your life thinking all women and all men cheat..."

 

This suggests that you were not confused about what I said. You believed I said that. And I am saying, you misread my post. Now you want to say it was "not clear at all"? Wouldn't the appropriate response, if that were the case have been "Are you trying to say..." or "I don't understand your logic..."

 

No, you said I was ridiculous for believing all women and men cheat... That does not sound like someone responding to a confusing post.

 

 

Actually I have been an English teacher since 1995, so I do know that saying:

 

Not all good women cheat. (Means that not ALL good women cheat)

But good women cheat. (Means that although not ALL good women cheat, some good women DO. i.e. Being GOOD does not exempt one from being unfaithful at some point)

 

That is how our language works.

 

Because there are some people in LS who believe that cheating has something to do with "BEING A GOOD Person" vs. "Behaving ALWAYS in a good way". There are even some that think we are wired genetically to cheat. If we cheat, we have the wires, those of us who do not have the wires, don't. Lame as that sounds, there are people who believe it.

 

Further, to say that "it is a fools promise to think that a good woman will not cheat" is not the same thing as saying "it is a fools promise to think that all good woman will not cheat"

 

I have never said, nor even suggested, in any of my 1150 posts that I believe ALL good woman cheat, nor have I even said that I believe that ALL good woman are CAPABLE of cheating. I simply do not see being a GOOD WOMAN synonymous with the inability TO cheat.

 

 

We seem to bemisunderstanding each other because you definitely misunderstood my words and my interactions with you as well. And just because you're an English teacher doesn't mean you will always communicate well (obviously). I have no desire to keep going back and forth with you either.

[Mz. Pixie]

Tom I understand your strong will that things are not as bad. I understand you want to go back to your life before the terrible discoveries, but I need to give you a wake up call. Nothing will be the same anymore because she chose to throw your vows out of the window and do things she KNEW would hurt you to death. In my eyes you did marry a good woman as fellini said but she is not a good woman / wife anymore after what she did. This is the key point I disagree with what some of you have said. What is a good wife? One who loves and respects her husband, honors her marriage, cares for his happiness and does her best to maintain it. If one part of this equation is eliminated, then this woman is not a good wife anymore. You seem to be really interested in whether she actually had sex with these guys or not. I am sorry to say but I think this is a way to justify in your eyes your inability / weakness / fear to leave her. If you did know she had sex with them, you would find another dealbreaker you would not know about (like, she had wild or vanilla sex with them) in order to justify your staying. As I see it, the second a person gets intimate around another person who is not their spouse, little does it matter whether they do have sex or not. It is like a kid who steals the box with the candies. It already stole it, does it matter whether it eats them or not? Does it matter to a jury whether a thief will spend the money he stole or not? The bad act was that he stole it. I think you get my point. If my bf found himself in a position where he would be kissing and touching another woman, do I need more evidence that he does not care for me anymore? Are there things a cheater can do that do NOT show disrespect towards their spouse? Are some cheating acts OK? Well not in my eyes. The moment I am not the woman you desire or confide in anymore, I see no reason of what you can do to prove me that I am. Either I am or I am not, you know what I mean?

 

It just makes me sad. So many single good women and good men accept such disrespect and forgive other women. Sad.

 

She's giving you excellent advice and feedback here.

[Mz. Pixie]

Tom-look for a thread with the screen name of Kidd. 2011. Checked my PM's and he was one who messaged me a lot for advice. So many others. Lots of them don't stay so it's hard to remember screen names.

 

As far as the polygraph- is your peace of mind and marriage worth the price?

I say so. And it's possible you might only need to threaten it and get her in the car for her to break down.

 

Snapchat???? What does a grown married woman need snapchat for? I would say that's a no in recovery. Does she want her friends and social life or her husband?

 

You realize you're still being passive? Do you have anything on her phone such as spyware so you can get all her texts etc? If not do so. There are programs. That might be better than a polygraph come to think of it. Do you have all her passwords? If not she must submit those today.

 

Women do not love men they don't respect. Plainly speaking if she can walk all over you that's not attractive to her. She kinda sounds like a whiny immature brat who thinks everything is all about her and you have to be the adult. No disrespect intended but my concern is for you. Passive and rolling over just usually is not a turn on for women. You can be loving but also not put up with BS. At the end of the day she knows you. Shake it up a little bit.

 

Snapchat??? Ugh.

[eric1]

DO A FORENSIC RECOVERY ON HER PHONE NOW.

 

she will lie and gas light, but get that phone. If she is telling the truth she has nothing to hide.

 

Tell her this program you have recovers snap chat too. It (Dr Fone) can't, it can only do SMS and WhatsApp (and a few others). But tell her this to see the look on her face. That'll tell you all you need to know.