Feminism and gender roles

[Woggle]

I agree with all of this but stuff like 'all men are rapists' needs to be called out.

 

But to be honest, no one I know has been able to justify anti-feminism with anything other than radical feminism. It kind of feels like they know being anti-feminism is being anti-women but they also know it's wrong so they look for justifications we can't argue against.

 

And as much as you are trying to make them understand the difference between radical and actual feminism, the more they cover their ears and go 'lalalalalalalalalalal!'

 

To be honest, I've sort of given up on that fight. I just stay away from these men and surround myself with the ones who understand the difference. And this brings me back to my first post: feminism has less support so the radicals are stronger)

 

I'm not making a gross generalization here - I'm just telling how it is in my 'entourage'

 

That is because the radicals are the loudest and most visible voice of the movement. They are the ones who scream the loudest on college campuses and want to lynch men who fall out of favor with them even if the facts prove they are innocent.

 

Also I get the feeling that patriarchy is just a code word for men. They don't want to come right out and say they are anti-male so they say anti-patriarchy. Honestly it's the subtle misandrists that are the worst. You think you get along with them and they aren't hateful and then it comes out of nowhere.

 

I don't believe that all feminists are anti-male. There are many who genuinely are interested in equality but the extremists have been a number on the movement just like the religious right does done to Christianity and just like the religious right any time somebody doesn't agree with them the victim complex comes out. For two groups that hate each other they are a lot alike.

[elaine567]

I agree with all of this but stuff like 'all men are rapists' needs to be called out.

 

 

"All men are rapists" was actually only said by a character in a novel, written by a feminist.

 

BUT it was immediately grabbed by the anti-feminism crowd as "proof" and it is repeated ad nauseum, as soon as anyone mentions feminism or woman's rights, by those who seek to discredit the movement.

[Woggle]

True feminism was supposed to be about giving women choices. The modern, radical feminists will deride any woman who doesn't make "the right" choices. Want to see a radical feminist's venom come out? Ask them what they think of a SAHM who respects her husband...

 

Ask a working woman who respects and loves her husband. If you don't have an antagonistic relationships with the man in your life then you are a stepford wife.

[WomenWubber]

I've never met anyone who actually doesn't believe in equality for the genders. I know people who believe men and women are different (as do I). Put people who actually want women to be "less"? Nope.

 

I'm on this boat as well.

 

I can see that men are privileged in some areas, but I also see that women are privileged in other ways.

[Woggle]

There are people who are sexist and believe women should be less and in some cases men should be less but it seems that whenever man makes honestly about gender issues we are called misogynists.

[elaine567]

Also I get the feeling that patriarchy is just a code word for men. They don't want to come right out and say they are anti-male so they say anti-patriarchy. Honestly it's the subtle misandrists that are the worst. You think you get along with them and they aren't hateful and then it comes out of nowhere.

 

"Patriarchy is a social system in which males hold primary power, predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property; in the domain of the family, fathers or father-figures hold authority over women and children."

 

Fighting for true equality has to necessarily upturn the patriarchy, and the vestiges of patriarchy, and replace them with an equal society, and that can be viewed as anti-male by some.

Overturning the ever present *male privilege is a huge task, especially when many people see it as "the norm" and not about privilege at all.

 

 

*Male privilege may be viewed as an invisible package filled with unearned privileges that are constantly at work, but which are unspoken and most people remain oblivious to.

[Woggle]

I know what it is supposed to mean but I think a lot just say it when they really want to say men.

[Keenly]

If feminism really is about equality of both sexes, why have I never in my life seen or heard or read about any feminist group helping any men ever?

[Maleficent]

"All men are rapists" was actually only said by a character in a novel, written by a feminist.

 

BUT it was immediately grabbed by the anti-feminism crowd as "proof" and it is repeated ad nauseum, as soon as anyone mentions feminism or woman's rights, by those who seek to discredit the movement.

 

Really?? I did not know that...

 

Well that kind of proves my point, doesn't it?

lol

[mrldii]

If feminism really is about equality of both sexes, why have I never in my life seen or heard or read about any feminist group helping any men ever?

 

 

"Feminism" is what has allowed many men to not become fathers before their time.

 

"Feminism" is what has allowed many men to NOT be the soul wage-earners in a family.

 

"Feminism" is what has allowed many men to share equally in the raising of their children - if they so choose.

 

 

These are just a few examples of how "feminist group" have helped men...unless, of course, one doesn't see these things as benefits.

[Maleficent]

If feminism really is about equality of both sexes, why have I never in my life seen or heard or read about any feminist group helping any men ever?

 

Actually, a lot of the stuff feminism is fighting against will end up benefiting men.

 

A perfect example is this notion that men are strong and women are weak. Balancing things out and recognizing both sexes can be strong and weak will end the incredible sexism that is telling a man to grow some balls or to 'take it like a man'

[RedRobin]

Also I get the feeling that patriarchy is just a code word for men. They don't want to come right out and say they are anti-male so they say anti-patriarchy. Honestly it's the subtle misandrists that are the worst. You think you get along with them and they aren't hateful and then it comes out of nowhere..

 

 

To the extent that some men embrace and defend social, financial, sexual, etc systems that diminish women's agency as human beings, then, yea, those guys will be criticized. Especially if you feel those privileges are due you simply for being born a man and no other reason.

 

 

If your identity as a man is tied up in oh, making sure you always make more, that you have uninhibited access to women in every sphere of your life to use at your whim, that you are viewed as the primary 'decider' (just a few examples), then I can imagine that criticism to the contrary might make you feel threatened as a MAN instead of seeing that criticism as a threat to those IDEAS... not your gender.

 

 

I also get it that the 'man-hater' label gets a lot of currency and is a useful distraction for those guys who don't want to assess their ideas... that again... have nothing to do with their gender, and everything to do with their socialization and ideas.

 

 

I've criticized just as many women here for holding and defending gender based stereotypes as well. I don't consider myself a feminist though. I just don't like gender based stereotypes no matter where they come from. I think it limits everyone to believe that we are simply prisoners of our biology.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I am a real true feminist raised that way by my mom AND my dad to believe that NOTHING about being born a girl should EVER stand in my way in life.

 

This doesn't have anything to do with bringing men down except insofar as it upset the balance of some privileges that used to be conferred upon white males just because they were born white males, pre feminism and civil rights. That automatic privilege is quite eroded and this makes some guys mad.

 

I think I kind of have it easy as most "traditional female gender roles" are comfortable for me and I like them. I like to cook, I am happy to let my fiance do the heavy lifting, I love to wear fancy lingerie under my farm clothes!! But that doesn't take away from my knowledge that these are my CHOICES and I could choose completely differently like quite a few of my women friends and relatives have.

 

I can't believe you guys who say you have NEVER encountered sexism in your life though. Just right here on LS it is raging on in some threads ...

[warrenorabbits]

So, you equate not being a feminist to being anti-woman?

No, I just meant that I'd be wrong to wholesale dismiss a movement that's noble at its core just because some people (the radicals) take it too far.

 

But as someone else pointed out, many people (myself formerly included) don't like feminism because they equate it with man-hating sexism rather than simply a movement for greater sensitivity to gender inequalities. There are lessons that feminism has to teach that society needs to hear: I, for example, used to review movies and would sometimes make what I thought were innocent comments about an actress's beauty or appearance. Now I avoid making such comments, not because some rule of political correctness tells me I must, but because I now think differently about them. In particular, I remind myself that men are rarely held up to such scrutiny based on appearance; so to make sure I am treating all people with fairness and sensitivity, I avoid putting women under that same scrutiny.

 

But thanks to heavy-handed radicals, many people won't hear these lessons because they (understandably) refuse the insulting package they come in.

[autumnnight]

I've criticized just as many women here for holding and defending gender based stereotypes as well. I don't consider myself a feminist though. I just don't like gender based stereotypes no matter where they come from. I think it limits everyone to believe that we are simply prisoners of our biology

 

This is what I am talking about. It a woman wants to embrace traditional gender roles, who are you to criticize?

[SolG]

This is what I am talking about. It a woman wants to embrace traditional gender roles, who are you to criticize?

 

I know what you mean Autumn. As a feminist myself, I find the 'mommy wars' a continual frustration. It's actually anathema to equality and the consequent concept of choice if folk then get bogged down in advocating that only one type if choice is valid. That's not feminism, it's elitism.

 

To my way of thinking, feminism is absolutely about advocating choice for MEN and WOMEN. Both should have equal access to the career opportunities that their capabilities dictate rather than be limited by perception-based barriers. And neither should be condemned for choosing other paths such as home-making. If you think women are derided for being a SAHM... That's nothing compared to the suspicion with which men who make that choice are viewed. For true equality to be achieved, it must apply to all.

 

I recently helped a male colleague challenge a decision by his boss denying him access to a fair flexible working arrangement that he needed to satisfy his custody responsibilities. His boss' underlying reason for denying tha arrangement was because 'that stuff is only for women'. Needless to say, this was quickly overturned.

 

I've also had conversations with two male friends in the last week about their young daughters (7 and 8 respectively) and body image. Both girls are already beginning to talk about being 'too fat'. We talked about the insidiousness of the beauty myth, and the importance of fathers as primary male role models in valuing their daughters for their physical strength, courage and intelligence. Little girls will have a million messages bombarding them with the importance of how they look... They need a steady, loving, meaningful voice telling them they are more than that.

 

Real feminism doesn't hate men. It acknowledges them as our partners in making the world a better place for everyone.

[William]

As a reminder, our guidelines regarding group bashing apply in all forums of discussion.

 

Additionally, here, I noted action words of 'all men are rapists', later attributed to a work of fiction as argument against being identified as feminist mantra. In cases of using published words to make one's point, please attribute them, in this case to author Marilyn French in her 1977 novel 'The Women's Room', fiction about women in the 1950's and 60's.

 

Thanks for your attention to this moderation directive and please continue.

[RedRobin]

This is what I am talking about. It a woman wants to embrace traditional gender roles, who are you to criticize?

 

 

If we are on a message board talking philosophically and sharing opinions, then we are both free to say whatever we want.

 

 

IRL, I don't go after men or women who embrace traditional gender roles. There is a very nice family who lives in the house directly behind mine who are very religious, they have as many kids as she could bear (I think they are up to 10 now), and she stays at home and home schools them.

 

 

They are friendly to me and I am friendly to them. We don't talk politics. We have worked on some community issues together on things where our values and goals overlap. *shrug*

 

 

To the extent that some people here claim that I'm not a real woman because I don't have kids... or that I, as a woman, am biologically inclined to X or Y behavior, or that I should be attracted to X or Y type of man and accept X or Y behavior from those men... yea, I'm going to speak up and share my opinion about that.

 

 

Edited: for what it is worth, I refuse to go to work-place initiated "work/life balance" seminars and discussions that are oriented for women. I refuse to go to work-place initiated "flex-time" seminars and discussions that are oriented towards women. To me, that only propagates the stereotype that women are less invested in their careers than men are.

 

 

I had it out with one of my male project leaders when he criticized my choice to use some of the flex-time available to all employees to attend a function held by the governor of my state. He seemed to think that because I don't have kids, then I was exempt from using that flextime. I told him to stuff it. He had no problems using HIS flextime when his kids were sick, etc. Good for him that he felt he could do so! So, people who don't have kids shouldn't be deprived of the same benefits as those who have kids. I decide how to balance my life. Male or female. With kids or without them.

Edited August 30, 2015 by RedRobin

[autumnnight]

All that talk about chromosomes and hordes of children are distractions. I know women with no children who are married and embrace the more traditional feminine role. They are not controlled, put upon, they have high intelligence, and 2 of them are staunch Democrats. I only have 2 kids, I have 2 graduate degrees, I worked full time for the vast majority of my marriage, and being traditional didn't hamper me a bit. It just illustrates the condescending and narrow view of a certain segment of feminists to trot out the Duggar-style family every time traditional roles are discussed. Oh, and you may be polite to your neighbors...but I guarantee they feel your "enlightened pity" a mile away.

[johndoe2]

"Patriarchy is a social system in which males hold primary power, predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property; in the domain of the family, fathers or father-figures hold authority over women and children."

 

Fighting for true equality has to necessarily upturn the patriarchy, and the vestiges of patriarchy, and replace them with an equal society, and that can be viewed as anti-male by some.

Overturning the ever present *male privilege is a huge task, especially when many people see it as "the norm" and not about privilege at all.

 

 

*Male privilege may be viewed as an invisible package filled with unearned privileges that are constantly at work, but which are unspoken and most people remain oblivious to.

Patriarchy implies that it is men who 'set up' the system, and it in its definition, it is usually implied that the system exists in order to oppress women for men's benefit. I would ask again, why would men deliberately and knowingly set up a system that leaves them living shorter lives, dying more brutal deaths, working longer hours, and committing suicide at higher rates? To call it a 'patriarchy' implies male responsibility. It is a male-gendered work after all.

 

No gender set up pre-industrial gender norms. They evolved over countless millenia, often for practical and economical purposes, and would be periodically rendered obsolete as modes of production, technology, and standard of living changed. That is an objective, scientifically and historically based assessment of gender norms.

 

Overturning the ever present *male privilege is a huge task, especially when many people see it as "the norm" and not about privilege at all.

And what about female privilege? What a feminist fails to see is that you cannot possibly overturn someone else's privilege without sacrificing your own. If you want more women in the workforce, you have to give up the expectation that men pay for women's needs. Every "male privilege" is tethered to an inverse 'male responsibility', and that has to be reallocated too, and some of it won't be pleasant. After all, an in 'equal' society, shouldn't there be just as man homeless, incarcerated, murdered, and suicidal women as men? Women don't get to have their cake and eat it too.

[johndoe2]

I can't believe you guys who say you have NEVER encountered sexism in your life though. Just right here on LS it is raging on in some threads ...

Plenty of women deny that sexism against males is possible, or insist it's negligible, so why should you be surprised that the reciprocal position should exist?

 

As a reminder, our guidelines regarding group bashing apply in all forums of discussion.

 

Additionally, here, I noted action words of 'all men are rapists', later attributed to a work of fiction as argument against being identified as feminist mantra. In cases of using published words to make one's point, please attribute them, in this case to author Marilyn French in her 1977 novel 'The Women's Room', fiction about women in the 1950's and 60's.

 

Thanks for your attention to this moderation directive and please continue.

Fine, here's a list of non-fiction ones if you doubt that that movement houses a very hateful submovement: 23 Quotes From Feminists That Will Make You Rethink Feminism | Thought Catalog

 

Also, are we not allowed to criticize ideologies now? I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to,just asking for clarification.

Edited August 30, 2015 by johndoe2

[Robert Z]

"Feminism" is what has allowed many men to not become fathers before their time.

 

"Feminism" is what has allowed many men to NOT be the soul wage-earners in a family.

 

"Feminism" is what has allowed many men to share equally in the raising of their children - if they so choose.

 

 

These are just a few examples of how "feminist group" have helped men...unless, of course, one doesn't see these things as benefits.

 

To whatever extent that may be true, it was never the goal of feminism.

 

So then do we also attribute the dramatic rise in the divorce rate, the break up the family, latch-key kids, childhood obesity, and children being raised by strangers, to feminism?

 

I see my pathetic marriage as an indirect casualty of feminism. I think feminism ruined my ex wife. I suspect the dramatic rise in suicides in men my age is related to feminism. And it has nothing to do with patriarchy. I think a lot of women were brainwashed into being perpetual victims. They feel the world, and especially men, OWE them. In fact my ex used to say that ALL the time. You owe me! You owe me! Why? Because she's a woman and I'm a man. Her sense of fairness and equity we laughable.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Robert Z

[elaine567]

Patriarchy implies that it is men who 'set up' the system, and it in its definition, it is usually implied that the system exists in order to oppress women for men's benefit. I would ask again, why would men deliberately and knowingly set up a system that leaves them living shorter lives, dying more brutal deaths, working longer hours, and committing suicide at higher rates? To call it a 'patriarchy' implies male responsibility. It is a male-gendered work after all.

 

It is a system set up by men for men, and yes women have been oppressed for the benefit of men, of course they are/were. Women in the Western world up to very recently were seen as chattels and the possession of a man, women are still viewed in that way in many countries today.

Just because the system doesn't work for some men, does not mean it was set up by women.

The strong oppress the weak. Poorer, weaker, less powerful, less influential men have always borne the brunt, but that is not due to women, that is due to other more powerful, richer, stronger, and influential men stomping around and showing their dominance.

 

And what about female privilege? What a feminist fails to see is that you cannot possibly overturn someone else's privilege without sacrificing your own. If you want more women in the workforce, you have to give up the expectation that men pay for women's needs. Every "male privilege" is tethered to an inverse 'male responsibility', and that has to be reallocated too, and some of it won't be pleasant. After all, an in 'equal' society, shouldn't there be just as man homeless, incarcerated, murdered, and suicidal women as men? Women don't get to have their cake and eat it too.

 

If I overturn YOUR privilege, I sacrifice my own, how does that work?

I overturn your privilege, I take away your unearned advantage, I level the playing field and that somehow means I am at a disadvantage??

Do men really pay for women's needs?

 

And what madness is this? Men are homeless, incarcerated, murdered, and suicidal, so an equal number of women need to be made homeless, incarcerated, murdered, and suicidal to create equality????

Men make their own choices in their lives, as do women.

[Maleficent]

It is a system set up by men for men, and yes women have been oppressed for the benefit of men, of course they are/were. Women in the Western world up to very recently were seen as chattels and the possession of a man, women are still viewed in that way in many countries today.

Just because the system doesn't work for some men, does not mean it was set up by women.

The strong oppress the weak. Poorer, weaker, less powerful, less influential men have always borne the brunt, but that is not due to women, that is due to other more powerful, richer, stronger, and influential men stomping around and showing their dominance.

 

 

 

If I overturn YOUR privilege, I sacrifice my own, how does that work?

I overturn your privilege, I take away your unearned advantage, I level the playing field and that somehow means I am at a disadvantage??

Do men really pay for women's needs?

 

And what madness is this? Men are homeless, incarcerated, murdered, and suicidal, so an equal number of women need to be made homeless, incarcerated, murdered, and suicidal to create equality????

Men make their own choices in their lives, as do women.

 

 

No but we could work towards making less men homeless incarcerated, murdered and suicidal.

I think that's the point...

 

But I think he is mixing up privileges and statistics...

 

It's not a female privilege to have a lower rate of death by suicide.

...

[William]

Also, are we not allowed to criticize ideologies now? I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to,just asking for clarification.

 

'All men are rapists' is inflammatory language. Debating ideology can be effected without the use of inflammatory language. In this case, the quoted text is from a fictional literary work and should be attributed to such, precisely, as I outlined. So, one can quote a passage from a literary work and discuss its effects on culture and social interaction. The quoted text, as example, shall not be used as an action phrase to describe groups of members or people in general as a weapon of argument. I hope that's clear enough for you.