Feminism and gender roles

[bcnguy]

Like I said I am a feminist and I also LOOOOOVE men, alot of them, I love humanity and I am repelled by any kind of hate. That said though radicalism has fueled the fires of much social change.

Ok, so you are someone who thinks that radicals serve a purpose (a necessary evil). The question, then is what will happen when feminist parties gain access to legislation. Will reasonable people -like you- keep them in check...or there will be a kind of tea party effect? (better examples crossed my mind, but are EU political parties unknown in the US).

[elaine567]

That said though radicalism has fueled the fires of much social change.

 

In all walks of life, those that shout the loudest, tend to get what they want, they force people to listen, they initiate real change.

If you sit in a corner quietly and moderately discussing change, then everyone is happy for you to just keep sitting in the corner.

You can discuss change for ever more, but nothing ever gets done, and everyone is happy to continue doing things "the way we have always done them".

 

In order to elicit change, then people have to be rocketed out of their comfort zone, the old order needs shocked into action, left to their own devices, inactivity is the name of the game.

 

Radical groups shout loud, they are controversial, they do not take no for an answer, they do not get into endless round-about discussions, their aim is to set the most extreme agenda possible.

They attract loose cannons, mavericks and "personalities", but that is essential to turn upset and chaos up to the maximum.

But they also usually have an inner core, who know what they are doing and in the negotiations which tend to follow the bedlam, they get what they really want (which may in fact not be all that radical in the scheme of things).

[Rejected Rosebud]

Ok, so you are someone who thinks that radicals serve a purpose (a necessary evil). The question, then is what will happen when feminist parties gain access to legislation. Will reasonable people -like you- keep them in check...or there will be a kind of tea party effect? (better examples crossed my mind, but are EU political parties unknown in the US).

Well I live in the USA and we don't have "feminist parties" we are basically a 2 party system here and generally the Democratic party best serves the issues around women's equal rights and those of minority people.

[serial muse]

What do you make of the fact that groups like the NOW actively oppose equality in custody settlements between men and women?

 

I found this to be a curious statement. So I did some homework. As I suspected, it isn't true.

 

NOW-New York State opposes the presumption of joint custody upon divorce. That's a very different thing. Instead, they favor a primary caregiver presumption -- which isn't necessarily a woman -- based upon who did the primary caregiving within the marriage. So a couple of points become obvious here: 1) this doesn't suggest that joint custody can't be negotiated, only that it shouldn't be assumed; the rationale for this is to avoid a situation where someone holds a custody battle (even when that person doesn't really want custody) over the other person's head as a bargaining tool in the dissemination of financial assets. And 2) this doesn't suggest that the primary caregiver must be a woman, only that there's some logic to continuing with the same primary caregiver before and after the marriage, whoever that is. In the past, certainly, that has primarily been women. But as times change, and more men are primary caregivers and more women are in the workforce full-time, one can expect that the numbers on this will evolve.

 

I'm not sure that I personally agree that joint custody isn't best for the child - but honestly, I think that's a recent thing. I think it's only recently that co-parenting, and at least some sort of equitable division of labor when it comes to parenting, has become accepted and even desired among an increasing number of men. This obviously hasn't been true for most of modern history. But it's great, IMO, that times are changing in this way - that more fathers actively want custody. Still, I find it hard to imagine that anyone with a knowledge of social history wouldn't see the point that NOW is making, even if they feel it's becoming outdated.

 

It's funny because I hadn't really thought about it this way before, but my father (a deadbeat dad) did exactly this - offered to waive a custody battle in order to pay nothing for child support. He did this twice, in fact, after both his first and second marriages. (Alimony was never even on the table either time.) And it worked, too. So yes, it happens.

Edited August 31, 2015 by serial muse

[elaine567]

Well I live in the USA and we don't have "feminist parties" we are basically a 2 party system here and generally the Democratic party best serves the issues around women's equal rights and those of minority people.

 

Meet the leader of the UK's first feminist political party - Telegraph -

 

Women's Equality party founders: It needed doing. So we said, Let' do it.. | World news | The Guardian

[elaine567]

I found this to be a curious statement. So I did some homework. As I suspected, it isn't true.

 

Dispelling The Myth Of Gender Bias In The Family Court System*|*Cathy Meyer

[Keenly]

Dispelling The Myth Of Gender Bias In The Family Court System*|*Cathy Meyer

 

One article makes all the bias go away!

[elaine567]

One article makes all the bias go away!

 

Read the evidence.

 

Until the statistics tell us that more than 4 percent of divorced fathers are seeking custody through the Family Court system, there are few men who have such experience and proof of a true "gender bias."

[Woggle]

To a man when women deny family court bias it sounds like a white person denying racial profiling. Ask any man who has been through the family court meat grinder and they will tell you what they went through.

 

There is an actress who recently lost custody of her kids and everybody is treating her like the victim until you dig deeper and find out that she got her ex's visa revoked because she accused him of making money illegally which was never proven. Would she get the same kind of sympathy if she were a man? I doubt it.

[PrettyEmily77]

I know plenty of guys that have decided to give up on their gender roles, not buy engagement rings, refuse to pay for dates, that sort of thing. They're all single. So, sure, a guy is free to do all of those things, but I wish him luck in finding a woman that will date him. Most would rather insult him. Beta male, cheapskate, insecure...all insults thrown at the guy you are describing.

 

I live in a large, cosmopolitan city and see plenty of men around me who have decided to 'give up' on their gender role, and none are single: some are stay-at-home dads (2 of my friends' Hs, their own choice), some (like my BF) have full custody of their kids whilst managing a highly demanding full time job, some have lower paying jobs than their high-earning partners (my cousin is an architect, her H is in building); all admired, very secure and happy in their R (don't know what a beta male is so can't comment on that front). None of these situations would have happened without feminism / gender equality in the work place or elsewhere.

[deadelvis]

Real equality is doesn't pick and choose.

 

When I worked construction we had a generator that we had to load in and out of the pickup every morning and every night. It was really heavy. It took two guys to lift it, but once just to prove I could do it, I carried it about 50 feet by myself but it almost threw out my back. When the topic of feminism came up my boss said. "Hey, I'm not saying I wouldn't hire a woman to work on the crew, but first you find me a woman who can load that generator out of the truck"

 

While the point seems obvious... it's often ignored. Men and women are equal in terms of intelligence, competence and worth... but they are not "equal" in terms of their capabilities.

Edited August 31, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Woggle]

I live in a large, cosmopolitan city and see plenty of men around me who have decided to 'give up' on their gender role, and none are single: some are stay-at-home dads (2 of my friends' Hs, their own choice), some (like my BF) have full custody of their kids whilst managing a highly demanding full time job, some have lower paying jobs than their high-earning partners (my cousin is an architect, her H is in building); all admired, very secure and happy in their R (don't know what a beta male is so can't comment on that front). None of these situations would have happened without feminism / gender equality in the work place or elsewhere.

 

How happy are the women with these arrangements and how attracted are they to these men? If the women are as on board with this as the guys then more power to everybody involved. Real equality is a great thing.

[PrettyEmily77]

How happy are the women with these arrangements and how attracted are they to these men? If the women are as on board with this as the guys then more power to everybody involved. Real equality is a great thing.

 

Very happy, in that they get to do what they want to do career-wise and have the full support of their partners, who are more than happy to be hands-on dads.

[autumnnight]

I have to admit, I just began to chuckle. Let me tell you about my parents.

 

They've been married about 55 years. Both of them had successful careers, my father in a high up position where he worked and my mother the first woman in her particular position in our region. They both had terminal degrees. They were a team.

 

My mother did most of the housework, my dad did the yard work. They both were "hands on parents," and they both spent lots of time with us. My father loved and respected my mother, my mother loved and respected my father. They were what many would call traditional, but they were anything BUT unequal.

 

All this caricaturing of traditional to mean Mama stays barefoot and pregnant and Dad retreats to smoke cigars and has to be reminded of his children's names is just BS propaganda, and not very intelligent at that. Most "traditional" couples love and respect each other. Most are a team. Most DO view each other as equals, and most BOTH parent the kids.

 

It's been 100 years since women couldn't vote, women can choose pretty much any career they want, and we can even fight on the front lines if we want.

 

I'm sorry.....this whole women as victims portrayal of society is just plain crap.

[Keenly]

Read the evidence.

 

I don't believe for a second that this woman's 4 percent statistic is correct.

 

 

By the way, the percentage of men fighting for custody has no relevance on how the ones that do fight for custody have a very uphill battle to fight.

[Rejected Rosebud]

 

It's been 100 years since women couldn't vote, women can choose pretty much any career they want, and we can even fight on the front lines if we want.

100 years isn't a very long time. I just heard an interview on the radio with a philosopher named Grace Lee Boggs, she was 100 years old in 2011 and I think she is still alive now. She has lived through all of it in her one lifetime.

 

I'm sorry.....this whole women as victims portrayal of society is just plain crap.

Do you see "women as victims" when people talk about feminism, I sure don't?? There are still alot of attitudes that need to change about women's roles in society for example, the fact that there even IS a such thing as a PUA movement (do you know what they espouse??!!! :eek:) speaks to that.

 

The fact that there are actually tours and agencies to help men go overseas and "buy" a wife.

 

Many of the horrible hatred promoted by the so-called MRA movement that is geared towards smashing women back into our former roles as second class citizens for the "good of men."

 

And alot of other crappy stuff that would not be a thing if negative attitudes towards women weren't socially acceptable. Sheesh read some of the threads going on here right now!!

 

I believe that, I am NOT oppressed in any way by society or by any individuals but I still believe that feminism is current and important !!

[Rejected Rosebud]

By the way, the percentage of men fighting for custody has no relevance on how the ones that do fight for custody have a very uphill battle to fight.

That is true, but it does have relevance in discussions that turn to the "horrible bias against men in custody battles" when so few men even try, and so many are happy to just walk away. If we are talking about individuals it is different than if we are talking about what happens in family court in general.

 

I do agree that it is not right or fair to favor women in custody fights just because they are women. I am sure this happens.

[serial muse]

To a man when women deny family court bias it sounds like a white person denying racial profiling. Ask any man who has been through the family court meat grinder and they will tell you what they went through.

 

There is an actress who recently lost custody of her kids and everybody is treating her like the victim until you dig deeper and find out that she got her ex's visa revoked because she accused him of making money illegally which was never proven. Would she get the same kind of sympathy if she were a man? I doubt it.

 

The point though is statistics. Yes, one can argue case by case issues. I could also drop a bunch of horrible anecdotes here. But why do that? It's not the real story.

[serial muse]

I don't believe for a second that this woman's 4 percent statistic is correct.

 

She didn't create the data. They were from this book: Child Custody Made Simple: Understanding the Laws of Child Custody and Child Support.

 

It's written by a dude, if that helps. And is linked to by a fathers' rights group. More convincing now?

 

It's also from 2001, so as I mentioned earlier, there are likely more men seeking custody now than there used to be.

 

And you're right the percentage of fathers seeking custody doesn't change the fact that those who do may have an uphill battle. Nor does it change the fact that the poster I quoted intentionally mischaracterized NOW's stance on the matter, which is what I was trying to clarify in the first place.

 

Not that anyone gives a crap. Why listen to a nuance or acknowledge a point you don't want to, when you can bulldoze through with your favorite talking points instead? Sigh. Carry on, or whatever. This is useful. :/

[Keenly]

100 years isn't a very long time. I just heard an interview on the radio with a philosopher named Grace Lee Boggs, she was 100 years old in 2011 and I think she is still alive now. She has lived through all of it in her one lifetime.

 

Do you see "women as victims" when people talk about feminism, I sure don't?? There are still alot of attitudes that need to change about women's roles in society for example, the fact that there even IS a such thing as a PUA movement (do you know what they espouse??!!! :eek:) speaks to that.

 

The fact that there are actually tours and agencies to help men go overseas and "buy" a wife.

 

Many of the horrible hatred promoted by the so-called MRA movement that is geared towards smashing women back into our former roles as second class citizens for the "good of men."

 

And alot of other crappy stuff that would not be a thing if negative attitudes towards women weren't socially acceptable. Sheesh read some of the threads going on here right now!!

 

I believe that, I am NOT oppressed in any way by society or by any individuals but I still believe that feminism is current and important !!

 

You disagree with the PUA crowd and think they should be.... What. Banned? Abolished? Outlawed?

 

What of the people that disagree with the feminist movement? Do they get the same power?

[Maleficent]

Until I see the expectation of society that men have to pay for everything, especially something as archaic as an engagement ring, abolished - I won't believe that anyone is serious about equality.

 

You want equality, show it. Don't just talk about it while still welcoming the unequal things that benefit you. Till then it's all just hot air and meaningless sh*t talk.

 

I will be long underground till any of this even makes one millimetre of progress though I feel.

 

One of the first battles of feminism was to allow women to have jobs and make their own way in life without relying on their husbands for social status and money,

 

The expectations that men have to pay for everything (including the engagement ring) is continuation of old times patriarchy. Because women were expected to stay home and not work them men had to pay for everything.

 

Just saying...

[Quiet Storm]

I actually like being traditional. I'll happily bake the cookies while the boys are outside shoveling snow.

 

Everyone's different though. I don't expect all women to be like me. If someone feels oppressed by men, that's their experience, their story and they have the right to express themselves and be a feminist.

[Maleficent]

Funny how when feminism fought for "equality" they never fought to pay for their own engagement ring and the like. That's why many men don't take them seriously. They fight for women to have equal pay and all that jazz, but men are still expected to pay for dinner.

 

Feminism fought for women to be able to have their own finances without having to rely on a man's budget.

 

And you're hung up on the traditionalist view (many women and feminists don't agree with by the way) that the man pays on dates and pays for the engagement ring.

 

You no longer have to pay for your wife's expenses unless you make that decision as a couple. But poo.poo. some people will think it's weird that you choose to split the cost of your engagement ring.

[Morning Wood]

The world is full of men AND women who are actively working to erase gender roles.

 

Are we talking about Countries / Religons where gays and women are oppressed or killed?

 

If I had a vote, it would be to deal with that first.

 

In fact some people even refuse to use gender specific pronouns like "he" and "she." A whole bunch of people! :bunny:

 

If someone is transgendered and would like to be called by the gender they identify with, there is only a small portion of the population who has a problem with that.

 

I live in a progressive city, to date... no co-workers, family, friends, strangers, straight, gay, black, white, various religons, etc. have said they have an objection to their gender, their partners gender, their gender role or their partners. In fact, these same co-workers, family, friends, strangers, straight, gay, black, white, various religons, etc. roll their eyes with lengths that has become.

 

Since obviously you are not living in any kind of alternative way to the traditional and sexist stereotypes (guys must pay, women must not enjoy sex outside of relationships, men may, etc) then you are going to have to take the negatives with the positives I guess!!

 

Huh? For someone who boasts of their desire and love of equality and tolerence, it does not appear as though you have grasp the whole concept yet.

 

I am not sure in which country you live. In mine, when I was out and about this weekend, I didn't see any men who had a gun pointed at their GFs / Wife's head forcing them to be with them nor were any of them treated them like second class citizens. From all accounts, the women based on their body langugage, PDA and smiles on their faces would not want to be anywhere else with anyone else other than the guy they choose to be with.

 

If you were willing to challenge all of that and re-imagine and reinvent your own perception of "male" and "female" and find others who are doing that too, your whole range of possible relationship dynamics would open up in ways you probably have no idea of!! I wish more of you guys here on LS would try it!!

 

What does this even mean?

 

I'm 6'0 hetrosexual 170 pound man. If a 5'6 gay 315 pound guy approaches me and asks me out... Am I suppose to forgo who I am, what I want, my sexual orientation, my preferences and date him?

 

I wouldn't date a 5'6 hetrosexual women who was 315 pounds.

 

What would you have me learn, that I already don't know?

[Maleficent]

Someone, please explain this to me.

 

If I understand correctly the expectation that men should pay for dates and pay for the engagement ring disappeared completely? This is what equality is after all. Equal expectations for men and women.

 

Wouldn't you agree that the expectation that women should have sex only with their boyfriends should also disappear?

Equal expectations for men and women.

 

Who's picking and choosing now?