BPD Spouse and Their Spouse

[NewLeaf512]

When The W is a BPD and the H is not, the H obviously develops some crazy behaviour and then it's a toxic disaster. How do these 2 people get better and fix life?

 

 

(this is a crap explanation)

[nescafe1982]

Only through counseling. But the person with BPD has to understand there is problem for it to work. The H may prevail on her that he's unhappy, but he must stop accommodating the borderline behaviors first.

 

So perhaps this means 1) H should see a therapist with a specialty in BPD first, then 2) work with that professional to stop accomodating, and 3) hopefully the wife will eventually understand the emotional consequences of her BPD on the relationship. With luck, she'll agree to get help. But it's a hard sell for folks with BPD, generally.

[carhill]

One solution is the team approach but the male spouse needs supportive friends to ground him from going crazy.

 

All in all it's a tough situation. About the only positive remark I can make from personal experience is that, in the cases I've been involved in or 'the friend', the women weren't violent where one might fear for their life. However, when in the demon phase, watch out.

 

Wish there was a magic treatment but, so far, I haven't seen one. It's tough when the manager, the brain, goes sideways. One's whole interface with life is processed through there. Meh.

[NewLeaf512]

he's not allowed to have friends. It's a very sad situation but obviously after 3 decades he has no idea who he is, and she can't be happy either, but she thinks it's all him.

 

 

It was very hard to watch. I think from what I have read it is very hard for the non BPD spouse to ever get out of it. Do you agree?

[nescafe1982]

Once they subsume themselves through constant accommodation to the spouse, it can become very, very difficult to make healthy changes.

 

Not the same disorder, but my mother is married to a man with NPD. It's been excruciating watching her personality wither and die as she crushes herself to conform to his reality. BPD manifests pretty similarly in a relationship: there's the partner with the disorder, and the one who accommodates it to the degree that they are fundamentally changed over time.

 

The ONLY way that he has a good shot of getting better is through therapy. But therapy also has a pretty good chance of breaking up the marriage in the long-term.

 

Still, though, if she is utterly convinced that he is the problem... maybe she wouldn't object to him seeing a therapist. Then, whether she changes or not, at least he has some sort of outlet to work through some of this stuff.

 

I feel for your friend. Stay around for him if at all possible.

[NewLeaf512]

One solution is the team approach but the male spouse needs supportive friends to ground him from going crazy.

 

All in all it's a tough situation. About the only positive remark I can make from personal experience is that, in the cases I've been involved in or 'the friend', the women weren't violent where one might fear for their life. However, when in the demon phase, watch out.

 

Wish there was a magic treatment but, so far, I haven't seen one. It's tough when the manager, the brain, goes sideways. One's whole interface with life is processed through there. Meh.

 

It's a terrible situation .

[NewLeaf512]

Once they subsume themselves through constant accommodation to the spouse, it can become very, very difficult to make healthy changes.

 

Not the same disorder, but my mother is married to a man with NPD. It's been excruciating watching her personality wither and die as she crushes herself to conform to his reality. BPD manifests pretty similarly in a relationship: there's the partner with the disorder, and the one who accommodates it to the degree that they are fundamentally changed over time.

 

The ONLY way that he has a good shot of getting better is through therapy. But therapy also has a pretty good chance of breaking up the marriage in the long-term.

 

Still, though, if she is utterly convinced that he is the problem... maybe she wouldn't object to him seeing a therapist. Then, whether she changes or not, at least he has some sort of outlet to work through some of this stuff.

 

I feel for your friend. Stay around for him if at all possible.

 

 

I grew up with a BPD. It's taken years of therapy for me to understand what happened to me, why I have never set a boundary, how to set a boundary with out feeling selfish and guilty and even now the first thing that wants to pop out of my mouth is some people pleasing crap.

 

I can't stay close to him for a number of reasons, he is in IC where he goes secretly during work hours. He knows he needs to end it but she has him so twisted up he believes he exists to serve her. Tragic

[NewLeaf512]

One other thought on this which is only my opinion based on my experience : the person being abused by the BPD or narcissist if exposed long term will then actually model being the abuser towards other people it's really weird

[nescafe1982]

One other thought on this which is only my opinion based on my experience : the person being abused by the BPD or narcissist if exposed long term will then actually model being the abuser towards other people it's really weird

 

Yep. I've seen this and in a way, it makes sense. If you allow someone with BPD (or NPD) to engulf you and redefine the world and your perspective along their lines, will will react and respond to that world the same way someone with such a disorder does.

 

It's like paranoia. Not only is it contagious... but it colors the reactions of rational people to make them act.. well, irrationally.

 

This is one of the reasons why it's so critical for children of suffers should also get into therapy--- to understand what happened to them and, very often, to rewrite the script. I'm glad you did so OP. It's so important.

[NewLeaf512]

Yep. I've seen this and in a way, it makes sense. If you allow someone with BPD (or NPD) to engulf you and redefine the world and your perspective along their lines, will will react and respond to that world the same way someone with such a disorder does.

 

It's like paranoia. Not only is it contagious... but it colors the reactions of rational people to make them act.. well, irrationally.

 

This is one of the reasons why it's so critical for children of suffers should also get into therapy--- to understand what happened to them and, very often, to rewrite the script. I'm glad you did so OP. It's so important.

 

 

Nescafe thanks. Do you think though that anyone really allows themselves to be engulfed? I use this (kind of disgusting) analogy.

 

 

Tf you have a pan of cold water on the hob and put a frog in it, slowly turn on the gas, a tiny flame, the frog sits there until it boils to death.

 

 

If you have a pot of boiling water on the hob, and try to put a frog in, it will immediately jump out and try to save itself.

 

 

I liken the first to what the experience of victims of BPD and NPD endure, it establishes the new normative, and all connection to reality is gone.

[nescafe1982]

Nescafe thanks. Do you think though that anyone really allows themselves to be engulfed?

 

I liken the first to what the experience of victims of BPD and NPD endure, it establishes the new normative, and all connection to reality is gone.

 

 

I think we're basically saying the same thing... but yes, I do think the partners of people with BPD are allowing themselves to be engulfed, although usually unconsciously.

 

Typically these partner bring codependent relationship styles into the marriage. Codependency is very nearly a prerequisite for tolerating the behaviors of someone with BPD. Sadly, it's also the means by which a spouse begins to internalize the B's worldview.... the very definition of engulfment. The end result is, as you say: the establishment of a new norm which is often divorced from reality and makes getting around in the 'real world' very difficult for the spouse. It's crippling.

 

Note: this isn't to say I'm "blaming" a spouse for their role in creating the codependency. Rather, that I think it's important to note that often these spouses have codependent tendencies that were written into them before they find a relationship with someone who has a personality disorder. People lacking these traits usually cannot tolerate the actions or the worldview of a borderline. They are repulsed too early on for a relationship to form.

Edited September 27, 2015 by nescafe1982

[NewLeaf512]

I think we're basically saying the same thing... but yes, I do think the partners of people with BPD are allowing themselves to be engulfed, although usually unconsciously.

 

Typically these partner bring codependent relationship styles into the marriage. Codependency is very nearly a prerequisite for tolerating the behaviors of someone with BPD. Sadly, it's also the means by which a spouse begins to internalize the B's worldview.... the very definition of engulfment. The end result is, as you say: the establishment of a new norm which is often divorced from reality and makes getting around in the 'real world' very difficult for the spouse. It's crippling.

 

Note: this isn't to say I'm "blaming" a spouse for their role in creating the codependency. Rather, that I think it's important to note that often these spouses have codependent tendencies that were written into them before they find a relationship with someone who has a personality disorder. People lacking these traits usually cannot tolerate the actions or the worldview of a borderline. They are repulsed too early on for a relationship to form.

 

I agree with that with a caveat and an exception. Caveat: I believe that BPD and NPD actually seek out people with co-dependent personality traits,

Exception: how old the victim is when they are swallowed / engulfed. The victims lose their identities completely and become an extension of the BPD. They are basically seen as one person.

These people went to MC when the man started to assert some individuality, she said he was depressed and got them to a Gottman method therapist which is all about shared everything with the couple being a unit. It was after this MC that there was no longer any hope.

[turnera]

What you can do is to slowly, carefully, show your friend what real life is like. Invite him to tea or lunch. Do it slowly at first so his wife doesn't balk, maybe once a month. Then once every 3 weeks. Then twice a month. Help him make it the new norm, to 'get away' every couple weeks. Once that becomes accepted in their marriage, you can help him push for a little bit more. Maybe go bowling. Or play tennis. Anything to help him see what he feels like, how good it feels. Start inviting other guys to meet up with you. Being around other men will help him shake her influence, and remind him of who he used to be before he met her.

 

It took a long time for her to get him that way, it's going to take him a long time to pull himself out of it. But having friends with you is the best way for it to happen.

[NewLeaf512]

What you can do is to slowly, carefully, show your friend what real life is like. Invite him to tea or lunch. Do it slowly at first so his wife doesn't balk, maybe once a month. Then once every 3 weeks. Then twice a month. Help him make it the new norm, to 'get away' every couple weeks. Once that becomes accepted in their marriage, you can help him push for a little bit more. Maybe go bowling. Or play tennis. Anything to help him see what he feels like, how good it feels. Start inviting other guys to meet up with you. Being around other men will help him shake her influence, and remind him of who he used to be before he met her.

 

It took a long time for her to get him that way, it's going to take him a long time to pull himself out of it. But having friends with you is the best way for it to happen.

 

 

He needs that but that's impossible for me to do. Additionally I have no idea who he was before. this is a situation that has been going on for 30 years

[turnera]

What's impossible? Going to lunch with him?

[NewLeaf512]

What's impossible? Going to lunch with him?

 

 

I am on NC with him for the rest of my life

[NewLeaf512]

Once they subsume themselves through constant accommodation to the spouse, it can become very, very difficult to make healthy changes.

 

Not the same disorder, but my mother is married to a man with NPD. It's been excruciating watching her personality wither and die as she crushes herself to conform to his reality. BPD manifests pretty similarly in a relationship: there's the partner with the disorder, and the one who accommodates it to the degree that they are fundamentally changed over time.

 

The ONLY way that he has a good shot of getting better is through therapy. But therapy also has a pretty good chance of breaking up the marriage in the long-term.

 

Still, though, if she is utterly convinced that he is the problem... maybe she wouldn't object to him seeing a therapist. Then, whether she changes or not, at least he has some sort of outlet to work through some of this stuff.

 

I feel for your friend. Stay around for him if at all possible.

 

 

Just a postscript to this really. He has completely gone and been assimilated, he doesn't exist anymore as a person. Just as an extension of his W. An appendage. Very sad and upsetting.