Neediness, Insecurity, and Reconciliation

[tricky]

I am in a somewhat similar situation. I have just started being friends with the ex about 3 - 4 weeks ago and there are times we are doing quite well, hanging out and enjoying it but I have days where I cannot possibly hold my insecurity and feel that she's taking me on for a ride. She's non-commital although she says she's so very happy to have what we have and move with it slowly.

[tricky]

Anyway I pressed submit before I finished. So there are days Universe when I feel like I am stuck in limbo and there are days when I feel fine. She tells me there is a chance of us being together, but she doesn't know if she can at the moment. She tells me there are moments she feels like just grabbing me, but she doesn't want to just jump into it, because she's scared of hurting me. In short she really doesn't know where she is. It really feels like a classic situation, being strang along. But I read your posts and you inspire me and I feel like I have a chance and I need to hang around for as long as it takes, because that is my only way I can re-kindle the feeling she had for me. I feel that there is more I can accomplish by being around her than not.

 

We call each other and I try to organise stuff for us to do once a week. I try to be as confident and come across as strong, but there are days when I just take the unfortunate step back and I make things worse.

 

For the first time we have been seeing each other I have made her cry tonight and myself as well. Another classic mistake. I asked her where I stand and do if I should hang around or not and that put more pressure on her. I am trying with all my strenghth not to do that and just let it be, but it feels like a superhuman effort trying. I cannot cope sometimes and NC seems like the only way out. But what am I going to accomplish by that?

 

How is a man supposed to deal with this? How is a man supposed to behave without pushing her away. How is a man supposed to feel confident and not send the wrong vibes?It is so extremely hard. I don't know how long I can cope.

 

I have asked if there is a chance of us in the future and she keeps on saying yes. That she still loves me and one part of her wants to and the other part is so very scared. I feel like she really should know by now where she wants to be.

 

Then again, I think this really is my last chance and if I stuff up, it will be for good. But I don't know if I have the patience...

[ConfusedInOC]

Thing thing about pressuring your SO is that the more you pressure them the more they want to get away.

 

My Ex is like this. She just wants to be free-floating with whatever guy she is with. No pressure. I think she does it so she can screw whoever she wants (as I am writing this, I've come to the realization that is exactly why she won't commit). She doesn't want to settle down yet and she's sowing her oats.

 

Women who don't want to commit are usually pretty sure you aren't the one or they just aren't ready to settle down yet. Either way, pressuring or even asking about commitment is only going to push them away further. If your goal is to be married and hers isn't then you're just not equally yoked.

 

Why waste your time on someone who doesn't feel your time is worth much?

[Mattaius]

Hmm perhaps the opposite approach is the way forward in your case. I'm prety much in the same boat as you are right now. Things have been seemingly positive and also there is nothing concrete for me to say yep its all going ot be rosy. However, stuff was happening with me and my ex the other day, i got carried away with things and she went completely cold on me and, said i just want to hug only hug. Then after a while even that was too much and me touching her in any way was also. Which is a bit of a bugger. She also became very odd, didnt have much to say to me and even after dinner stopped talking to me or even wanting to look at me. So i got the hint and left.

 

When i returned home she text me twice and i didnt reply, then the next day the same and i didnt reply (genuinely through me being asleep or my phone being off). On the third day i finally did reply, as i was awake this time and she, started telling me how sorry she was for being rude to me when i had been at hers and she felt really bad about it about the mood she'd been in and the way she had been acting and thought that i was not talking to her because of that. It was not true at all.

 

However this made me realise something, when she was in her mood, it was because she thought it was safe to act that way with me and that there would be no downside for her. Except when i didnt reply, she began to think that the way she had been acting was indeed wrong and that, i now had no interest in talking to her because of this. A little insecure wouldnt you say!

 

So i guess the moral of the story is that you need to be able to find away of making her think that she is going to loose you. Dont use the words you're going to loose me because it wont have the same effect as you showing subtley. If she is slightly interested in you, she wont become more intested if you are always there with her being nice to her. However if you make youself availible as you would normally and then remove yourself at the oppertune moments (for example any time she take you for granted), it may just peak her interest a little more and the relationship could start to advance in the way you want it to and not the way she wants it to

 

I hope that's correct adivce, lol

[Universe]

Mattaius said...

However if you make youself availible as you would normally and then remove yourself at the oppertune moments (for example any time she take you for granted),

It's definitely not cool to let her take you for granted. But I would say that such times are the only time to purposefully make yourself unavailable. To do that at "opportune" times would be manipulative and can easily backfire.

 

However, stuff was happening with me and my ex the other day, i got carried away with things and she went completely cold on me and, said i just want to hug only hug. Then after a while even that was too much and me touching her in any way was also. Which is a bit of a bugger. She also became very odd, didnt have much to say to me and even after dinner stopped talking to me or even wanting to look at me. So i got the hint and left.

I think you were right to leave. But I'm not sure you were really being taken for granted. She obviously didn't feel good about being close to you at that time. As you know, a breakup is a very difficult thing to go through for both parties. It's not so easy to just get close to someone again. Things can very quickly become very uncomfortable. You were the one who wanted to do more than hug. She doesn't owe you anything just because she didn't feel comfortable with that. It was a bit rude of her to not tell you so at the time. But I wonder if you're pressuring her too much. I think leaving her alone and not calling her was the right move, though I'm not usually a fan of ignoring someone's calls. But in this case it seems to have worked out positively for you. But in general I still say: Be cool. Be patient. If you love her, you'll want what's best for her. You'll want her to get intimate with you only when she feels comfortable doing so. Focus on giving her what she needs, not what you need to give her. See the difference?

 

ConfusedInOC wrote...

I think she does it so she can screw whoever she wants (as I am writing this, I've come to the realization that is exactly why she won't commit).

This is exactly what I thought the entire time we were broken up. She told me she was still in love with me and did not love the other guy, yet she continued to see him. I just about went insane. But one thing I can say with some certainty about that is that she was even more messed up than I was. She was absolutely miserable on all accounts of her friends and family. She seemed on the brink of tears almost every time I saw her during those months (except for when she was actually bawling).

I don't know how your girl acts now or what she's going through. All cases vary. But I would warn you not to assume things about her motives. I know it's next to impossible not to. But in these situations, assumptions are almost always wrong, and like I said over on Smile's thread, they will easily sabotage any chance for reconciliation. Whatever her reasoning is, she doesn't want to be bound in a relationship with you right now. I know that hurts like hell. Trust me, I KNOW! But if you want her back, try to look at the big picture. Think about it really long and hard. Ask yourself, is it really the best thing for both of you to be together, bound to each other right now? Probably not. This was the hardest thing for me to get my head (and heart) around before. But at the time it was the truth. I think that if I had been hasty and pushed really hard to get back together back then, it all would have slipped through my fingers. The coping with the fact that your ex doesn't want your continuous company anymore is the hardest part. But it is possible for you to win her back. Be patient. Give her space when she needs it. Give her space when she doesn't need it. Be there to support her when she needs it. And don't force your needs on to her. She left you because something about your love for her was dysfunctional. So even though you're the one in pain right now, you're the one who has to be strong and be there for her if your really want her back. That's why patience is key. The only way to win her back is to satisfy her needs while yours go unmet for a period. This is not a sustainable situation because you will surely feel taken advantage of as I did. And if you get back together and things are more settled, you should definitely not tolerate this lop-sided sort of arrangement. But it's a process it takes a while. You have to be patient because there will be times when you feel really depleted from giving so much and getting so little. The closer you get, the more anxious you will become and the harder it will be to remain calm and patient. But if you are strong, you'll be able to stay calm and keep yourself in line. As you're giving her time, you'll start to see that you yourself need that time also.

At least this is what happened to me. I had to wait, but the waiting ended up benefitting me more and more because I was simply not in a sane enough mindset to be back in a relationship. You need that time to yourself because you have to spend time giving yourself what you need since no one else is. You have to love yourself and nurse yourself in her absence.

 

Tricky, I want to reply to your post, but I'm out of time. But I think you know what you ahve to do. Just be strong. Stay calm. Don't rush things. Really try to look inside yourself and find what it is that makes you feel so insecure around her and work on fixing it. She's said there's a chance for the future. So stop asking her. I think it's best for you right now to not bring up getting back together with her. Just hang out with her once every week or to. Try to make it as fun as possible. Try to calm yourself before you see her. Be assured that she likes you for who you are. She just needs times right now. Show her your love by respecting that. Show her that what's important to you is that she's happy no matter what. And be it, don't speak it.

 

 

....and try not to cry.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by Universe

This is exactly what I thought the entire time we were broken up. She told me she was still in love with me and did not love the other guy, yet she continued to see him. I just about went insane. But one thing I can say with some certainty about that is that she was even more messed up than I was. She was absolutely miserable on all accounts of her friends and family. She seemed on the brink of tears almost every time I saw her during those months (except for when she was actually bawling).

I don't know how your girl acts now or what she's going through. All cases vary. But I would warn you not to assume things about her motives. I know it's next to impossible not to. But in these situations, assumptions are almost always wrong, and like I said over on Smile's thread, they will easily sabotage any chance for reconciliation. Whatever her reasoning is, she doesn't want to be bound in a relationship with you right now. I know that hurts like hell. Trust me, I KNOW! But if you want her back, try to look at the big picture. Think about it really long and hard. Ask yourself, is it really the best thing for both of you to be together, bound to each other right now? Probably not. This was the hardest thing for me to get my head (and heart) around before. But at the time it was the truth. I think that if I had been hasty and pushed really hard to get back together back then, it all would have slipped through my fingers. The coping with the fact that your ex doesn't want your continuous company anymore is the hardest part. But it is possible for you to win her back. Be patient. Give her space when she needs it. Give her space when she doesn't need it. Be there to support her when she needs it. And don't force your needs on to her. She left you because something about your love for her was dysfunctional. So even though you're the one in pain right now, you're the one who has to be strong and be there for her if your really want her back. That's why patience is key. The only way to win her back is to satisfy her needs while yours go unmet for a period. This is not a sustainable situation because you will surely feel taken advantage of as I did. And if you get back together and things are more settled, you should definitely not tolerate this lop-sided sort of arrangement. But it's a process it takes a while. You have to be patient because there will be times when you feel really depleted from giving so much and getting so little. The closer you get, the more anxious you will become and the harder it will be to remain calm and patient. But if you are strong, you'll be able to stay calm and keep yourself in line. As you're giving her time, you'll start to see that you yourself need that time also.

At least this is what happened to me. I had to wait, but the waiting ended up benefitting me more and more because I was simply not in a sane enough mindset to be back in a relationship. You need that time to yourself because you have to spend time giving yourself what you need since no one else is. You have to love yourself and nurse yourself in her absence.

 

Actually in my case I *was* doing all the giving and in essence, smothering her. I was being soft and clingy. The only way to prove to her that I am not anymore is to basically stay away from her. Let her current relationship fail (if it does at all, and she has hinted it will) and work on strengthening my self-confidence, self-assuredness and just basically work on being more masculine. If she comes back to me, that's what God wanted all along. If not, I'll at least be better off as a person and ready for a new relationship.

 

She has seen some of the changes in me already yet I know that behind my back she talks as if she has me wrapped around her finger (and to some extent, she does. I love her and that doesn't go away easy) and she does it to boost her own self-esteem.

 

I also need to learn to stop "rescuing" her. She doesn't want to be rescued.

I need to learn to listen and not offer advice unless asked.

I need to learn to not whine or complain.

I need to learn to be less emotional.

 

Yes, I have a TON of things to work on and I am tackling them one by one. I haven't set a timetable for my transformation (I am definitely changing for myself, not her. Until I do I will NEVER have a functional relationship).

 

But Universe, watching your relationship flourish is encouraging. For me, she loved me but wasn't IN love with me. She is infatuated with a new guy but if that relationship fails, she still has constant reminders of me. Whether she acts on them and sparks things up is anyone's guess.

 

Right now I have to assume she won't and get going. I'm not quite in NC, but I'm about as close as you can get.

[Nada]

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Im having some problems myself with a very needy man. He oddly enough recently told me I was needy. What a shock that was. Though I have a stranger than life relationship right now and cant change anything, you all should forget these women and move on. Women like (not all women but a lot of them) to have someone that will pay them compliments, kiss them and pay a lot of attention to them....that is where you come in. You are filling a void right now. The next man that comes by that appeals to her, gives her a hard time and generally treats her like sh*t, she will be on like white on rice. Its something we do. We let the nice guys slip away, and we probably all get what we deserve. So take heart, be strong and find yourselves. Dont let your relationship define you....you define you.

 

 

This was my first post, hope I did it right.

Nada

[tricky]

Thanks Nada, all input helps. I am quite aware of how women behave, men are very much the same in this regard.

 

I think about the whole thing all the time and the truth is I am not a needy guy at all. I became like that, because of my relationship with her. i've been depressed for quite a while before we broke up and i blamed it on a lot of things, but i am slowly realising that it was the relationship, no other factor in my life that made me depressed. it's made me into an emotional wreck. i woke up this morning and realised that i don't need a relationship like that. i don't need to be with someone who makes me feel like this.

 

freedom to choose is what i want. freedom to feel what i want. freedom to leave if i don't get what i want. and i have the freedom.. today is the first day of the rest of my life..

 

ciao

[Mattaius]

i just have to say that book, no more mr nice guy. wicked man, bought it yesterday im half way through and its very revealing. good choice everyone

[Universe]

Actually in my case I *was* doing all the giving and in essence, smothering her. I was being soft and clingy.

I think the biggest and most common problem in relationships is a misconception of what it means to be giving. What I mean is: How to give your love. ConfusedInOC, you say you did all the giving. But then you say you did so by smothering her and being soft and clingy. Almost everybody does this. The problem is that I think people love the way they want to love, but not how the other person wants or needs to be loved. For my ex and I, when our relationship started to deteriorate, we both became extremely depressed. We both loved each other dearly and were quite aware of each other's feelings. We tried for months to work it out. But it was as if some invisible force was killing what we had. This went on for almost a year. By the time we finally broke up, we were both so depressed that we could barely function in the world at all. For me, breaking up was simply a necessary step for us to solve our problems whereas she actually took it as the end. She's always been more defeatist than me and her depression was far worse. So once we were apart for a while and I'd really had a chance to focus and think clearly about things, I learned that despite the fact that I had done everything I could think of to show her my love she had not received it. The reason she did not receive it is because she didn't need it. And I wasn't giving her what she did need. I wasn't loving her the way she needed to be loved. And to me, that's the whole point of love; to give your lover what they need.

The only way to know what your lover needs is to focus really hard on what it must be like to be in there shoes. This can take on many forms. Most of them are just in the way you interact with one another. I think one of the things that makes this so hard is that so many couples are hetero. So men don't know what it's like to be a woman and vice-versa. But you have to be open minded. So I tried to seriously imagine myself in her body as a heterosexual female...which means I had to imagine what I would want my man to be like if I were her. Get over your homophobia if you have it. Imagine you have a vagina and boobs and a feminine odor and you like men. Go ahead and laugh at me. But after doing this, I'm ten times the man I was before. That's because I saw my old self through those eyes and I realized that, while I was gentle, caring, and considerate, I was not the man that any woman would really want.

If you're a woman, you want a man who is confident, boldly original, and not at all in need of ANYONE else's approval. You want a man who is sexy, exciting, and funny. I think this is why a lot of girls go for guys who, as Nada said, "gives her a hard time and generally treats her like sh*t." It's not that girls want to be treated badly. They don't. It's that a**hole guys often come with the side benefit of being confident, funny, bold, and most importantly not needing anyone's approval. i.e. "gives her a hard time" equals good while "treats her like sh*t" equals bad. On the flip side you have, as Nada said, "Women like (not all women but a lot of them) to have someone that will pay them compliments, kiss them and pay a lot of attention to them." But the don't like neediness and clinginess that these nice guys usually bring. So girls often go back and forth between a**hole guys and nice guys. tricky said,

I think about the whole thing all the time and the truth is I am not a needy guy at all. I became like that, because of my relationship with her.

This happened to you, me, and a million other nice guys. Many guys blame girls for this. But we have no one but ourselves to blame. And in the end, it's this change in us that causes them to leave us. The key, I think, is to be a nice guy i.e. not take advantage of her, not take her for granted, be considerate, be gentle, be caring; all while being the sexy man that she dreams of i.e. confident, not needing approval, funny, challenging, and sexy.

In most cases, it seems that a nice guy starts out charming, funny, confident, and sexy. Then through the course of the relationship he loses himself. And she loses him too. So she pulls back from this nice guy who is not really sexy anymore because he's all needy and clingy. Add to that the fact that he's not really giving her what she needs. And you have a break up and she jumps in bed with the first a**hole guy who comes along so she can get over your clingy a**.

 

That's what happens. But we all have the power to stop it. We can turn the neediness and the clinginess off. We can turn the insecurity off. You can find the cocky humor that challenges her. You can find the calm comforting sexiness that makes her feel safe with you. It's the best of both worlds. She'll be so satisfied, she'll never leave. And you'll be the man you always wanted to be because it directly translates into other aspects of your life. When you know that you are a confident effective lover, you'll automatically become a more confident effective person. And you'll see immediately if you're really matched up with this girl or if you just thought you were because you were too bogged down in your own insecure neediness.

 

No matter what you do, nothing will work unless your honest with yourself, respect yourself, and love yourself. And doing those three things can be a lot harder than you think. But only after you're doing those things can you really respect, love, and be honest with someone else. Until then, you're spinning your wheels.

[tricky]

thanks again universe for an amazing post. you certainly have lot of wisdom in you. propably more than anyone else I have met here on LS.

 

i woke up the other day and for the first time felt good about things. i still have a certain feeling of fear in me, but it is slowly subsiding. it is amazing, because i have been so miserable for months and then suddenly, one day i woke up and I felt like i have just made a leap forward. it's nice to be able to clear your mind from the hopeless looping thoughts and reavaluate your situation. i still hope that things will eventualy work out, but i don't really care that much anymore.. i know i can pick myself up and do my thing, with or without her.. i love this feeling..

 

it's still along way to go, but i will be ok... thanks again..

[tricky]

Hi Universe,

 

Just wanted to say thanks on the recommendation of the Receiving Love book. It's a real eye opener. I am halfway through it, hopefully I will be able to use the experience in my relationship with my ex, or if not it will certainly come useful in the future. I haven't bought the Robert Green books, as I am a little curious on how you could possibly apply the stuff that is written in them to your situation. From what I hear they are perhaps a little manipulative. I am curious of your thoughts on them.

 

Cheers

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by Universe

I think the biggest and most common problem in relationships is a misconception of what it means to be giving. What I mean is: How to give your love. ConfusedInOC, you say you did all the giving. But then you say you did so by smothering her and being soft and clingy. Almost everybody does this. The problem is that I think people love the way they want to love, but not how the other person wants or needs to be loved. For my ex and I, when our relationship started to deteriorate, we both became extremely depressed. We both loved each other dearly and were quite aware of each other's feelings. We tried for months to work it out. But it was as if some invisible force was killing what we had. This went on for almost a year. By the time we finally broke up, we were both so depressed that we could barely function in the world at all. For me, breaking up was simply a necessary step for us to solve our problems whereas she actually took it as the end. She's always been more defeatist than me and her depression was far worse. So once we were apart for a while and I'd really had a chance to focus and think clearly about things, I learned that despite the fact that I had done everything I could think of to show her my love she had not received it. The reason she did not receive it is because she didn't need it. And I wasn't giving her what she did need. I wasn't loving her the way she needed to be loved. And to me, that's the whole point of love; to give your lover what they need.

 

Aye you are 100% right in my case as well. My Ex needed to be loved in the way she received it and I still to this day do not know what that is or even how to go about finding out how. I could ask her one day if ever our paths cross again but I am not sure she would answer...because I don't think SHE knows.

 

She was hurt, terribly so, by two LTRs before she met me. I am very much like her first love and I think she's just afraid I will hurt her to some degree like he did. She doesn't know how to receive my love nor do I know how to receive hers. I know we love each other but figuring out HOW is a big issue.

 

You are seeing things very clearly, my friend, and helping me understand my own (failed) relationship immensely.

 

The only way to know what your lover needs is to focus really hard on what it must be like to be in there shoes. This can take on many forms. Most of them are just in the way you interact with one another. I think one of the things that makes this so hard is that so many couples are hetero. So men don't know what it's like to be a woman and vice-versa. But you have to be open minded. So I tried to seriously imagine myself in her body as a heterosexual female...which means I had to imagine what I would want my man to be like if I were her. Get over your homophobia if you have it. Imagine you have a vagina and boobs and a feminine odor and you like men. Go ahead and laugh at me. But after doing this, I'm ten times the man I was before. That's because I saw my old self through those eyes and I realized that, while I was gentle, caring, and considerate, I was not the man that any woman would really want.

 

She wanted me to be less clingy and soft and more masculine but without the rough edges. I know that for a fact. She wants a "Knight in Shining Armour" (I think all women do) and a man who loves God. I don't think I am THAT far off from what she wanted, I just tried so hard to control the relationship and make it move at my pace.

 

But you are definitely right. I wanted her to love the way I loved her instead of opening my mind and figuring out how she wanted to love and letting the relationship mature naturally instead of forcing it.

 

What a moron I have been.

 

 

f you're a woman, you want a man who is confident, boldly original, and not at all in need of ANYONE else's approval. You want a man who is sexy, exciting, and funny. I think this is why a lot of girls go for guys who, as Nada said, "gives her a hard time and generally treats her like sh*t." It's not that girls want to be treated badly. They don't. It's that a**hole guys often come with the side benefit of being confident, funny, bold, and most importantly not needing anyone's approval. i.e. "gives her a hard time" equals good while "treats her like sh*t" equals bad. On the flip side you have, as Nada said, "Women like (not all women but a lot of them) to have someone that will pay them compliments, kiss them and pay a lot of attention to them." But the don't like neediness and clinginess that these nice guys usually bring. So girls often go back and forth between a**hole guys and nice guys. tricky said,This happened to you, me, and a million other nice guys. Many guys blame girls for this. But we have no one but ourselves to blame. And in the end, it's this change in us that causes them to leave us. The key, I think, is to be a nice guy i.e. not take advantage of her, not take her for granted, be considerate, be gentle, be caring; all while being the sexy man that she dreams of i.e. confident, not needing approval, funny, challenging, and sexy.

 

Well, I have the first part. I was missing the confidence, needing approval and giving her a challenge. No doubt she thinks I am sexy, she loves my body and even she said the sex (which we shouldn't have been having) was incredible. That should have been enough to boost my confidence and be less clingy and needy. I was just too blind to see the signals.

 

 

In most cases, it seems that a nice guy starts out charming, funny, confident, and sexy. Then through the course of the relationship he loses himself. And she loses him too. So she pulls back from this nice guy who is not really sexy anymore because he's all needy and clingy. Add to that the fact that he's not really giving her what she needs. And you have a break up and she jumps in bed with the first a**hole guy who comes along so she can get over your clingy a**.

 

BINGO!!! That's me.

 

So my next question to you is: Is it possible to show them you have changed? If so, how do you go about doing it? I know I sound like I am going back to my old self, but if she actually saw the change she would be instantly attracted to me. And I HAVE changed a lot for the better (she even admitted it a few weeks ago that she saw a change). I know I have to wait for her rebound relationship to fail but heck, by that time I could have moved on.

 

The good thing is, if she does, I won't run back to her. I may not even want her (which I know will make her attracted to me, she always wants what she can't have). But if we did start hanging out again, I know for a FACT that I would be confident, sexy, masculine, funny, etc. because I have ALWAYS been that way. I just let her change me into a soft guy and I will NEVER, EVER let that happen again.

 

That's what happens. But we all have the power to stop it. We can turn the neediness and the clinginess off. We can turn the insecurity off. You can find the cocky humor that challenges her. You can find the calm comforting sexiness that makes her feel safe with you. It's the best of both worlds. She'll be so satisfied, she'll never leave. And you'll be the man you always wanted to be because it directly translates into other aspects of your life. When you know that you are a confident effective lover, you'll automatically become a more confident effective person. And you'll see immediately if you're really matched up with this girl or if you just thought you were because you were too bogged down in your own insecure neediness.

 

I'm already on that road. But tell me, Universe, what is the best way to not only learn that, but to make it a part of you? I definitely want to get back to my cocky, confident self and have that calm, confident, self-assuredness I had been missing. I know No More Mr Nice Guy is helping and I know it will take time. But how do I make it stick and not back slide??!?

 

No matter what you do, nothing will work unless your honest with yourself, respect yourself, and love yourself. And doing those three things can be a lot harder than you think. But only after you're doing those things can you really respect, love, and be honest with someone else. Until then, you're spinning your wheels.

 

Agreed. I'm reading some Self-Esteem books in addition to No More Mr. Nice Guy (once a week, as a reminder) and I also purchased "Being a man in a woman's world..." just on a tip from someone else.

 

Thoughts?!

 

Have I told you, YOU RULE? You are described our relationship perfectly!

 

One other thing, the urge to call her and:

 

1. Tell her off.

2. Tell her I have changed.

3. Tell her she screwed up.

 

etc...it's so hard to fight them off. I know calling her would back fire. As would sending her a letter or email. I won't kid anyone. Even though I am mad as heck at her, I still love her and if we had a second shot, I would definitely do things much differently and prove to her that I have changed immensely.

 

But how to do you do it when they're not being receptive right now? Just wait it out? Her mom, my therapist, everyone says "If you just give her the space she needs, I guarantee she will make contact with you again." I know that she will since most everything she uses in her life on a daily basis is connected to me in some shape or fashion.

 

If you don't mind, do you have YIM or some other chat program. I definitely would like to speak to you privately for advice.

 

You seem to have my situation nailed.

[Universe]

I definitely want to get back to my cocky, confident self and have that calm, confident, self-assuredness I had been missing. I know No More Mr Nice Guy is helping and I know it will take time. But how do I make it stick and not back slide??!?

Well, I still catch myself sliding back at times. But when it starts to happen, I feel this immense weight come down on my shoulders. I soon recognize this weight as the way I used to feel all the time. So it's at those times I know I really have to start thinking really hard about how my relationship with my ex is evolving. Like, we're still in "taking it slow" period which is really good for both of us I think. What's really good for me is that I get the space I need to think clearly and independently about what I perceive as regressions in my emotional and psychological health. But I can't say I've figured out how to make it stick. I think it would be much easier for me to make it stick if I were with somebody new. The fact that it's my ex who I was previously with for 5 years makes it extremely difficult not to slip into old dynamics. There've always been these little compulsive behaviors that come out of me when I'm around her. I think compulsive behavior is bad. I think instinctual behavior is good. And I think recognizing the difference between the two, impulse and instinct, is a necessary step in order for two people to cohabitate.

 

One other thing, the urge to call her and:

 

1. Tell her off.

2. Tell her I have changed.

3. Tell her she screwed up.

 

etc...it's so hard to fight them off. I know calling her would back fire. As would sending her a letter or email. I won't kid anyone. Even though I am mad as heck at her, I still love her and if we had a second shot, I would definitely do things much differently and prove to her that I have changed immensely.

 

But how to do you do it when they're not being receptive right now?

First of of all, save telling her off for your journal. I know this sounds weak at first. But it's not weak. It's smart. This is why: No one looks good telling someone off. It never gets received the way you intend it to. But if your so impassioned that you just cannot resist, then so be it. The explosion of passion can be such a beautiful thing that I hate to subdue it. But that's because I'm a sucker for that type of thing. Ex-girlfriends are rarely impressed with these explosions. They often see it for what it really is. A man crying like a baby because he is no longer having his needs met while somehow remaining ignorant of the fact that her needs haven't been met in years. The best telling her off will do is add drama to the story of the two of you. But it will most likely make a reconciliation all the more out of the question.

 

Tell her I have changed? Who are you trying to convince? You or her? Why not show her you have changed? Bringing your change to life is not only the best way to convince her of it, but it's the only way to make that change true. You haven't really changed unless your actions have changed. And if your actions have changed, she will notice.

Now, when I say actions, I'm talking about things as subtle as body language. One of the best indicators I have that something is wrong with the way I'm approaching something is my body language. Obviously it can be useful to study other people's body language. But it's good to be as natural as possible and objectively observe your own body language. If your natural body language seems insecure, then there is probably something your thinking or doing that is making you feel that way.

 

Tell her she screwed up? Did you not screw up too? Regardless, it's your decision if you want her back. But you should not try to get her back if you cannot forgive her for the ways that which she screwed up. If you can't forgive her, then maybe what she did was just too awful and that's a good indication that you should forget her and move on. I've been at this for about 9 months now. I still have moments where retrace my steps and double check my decision to forgive her. What she did hurt me really badly. So I can completely understand people who cannot forgive their ex. All situations are different. Some people are more evenly matched than others, some throw bigger punches. But if you can't forgive, you can't reconcile.

 

She's not being receptive right now? Then you have no choice but to wait until she calls or until you have an appropriate excuse to contact her. At this point, all contact with her has to be pleasant, fun, and enjoyable for her. The best way to ruin it is to mention the relationship or getting back together. You need to build rapport before you can be friends with her again and eventually date again. Give it some time. And take that time for yourself. Go out and make new friends. Be completely alone. Read a book or three. Take up a new hobby. Do volunteer work. Put your body in action and your mind will follow. But do what YOU want to do, NOT what you think she'd like you to do (unless, of course, you happen to have a genuine desire to do it).

 

Spilling your guts in a letter or email will only temporarily fulfill your need to do so, and will not be received the way you intend them to. It is good to write those letters, but it's best to save them as artifacts to look back on as you grow because you will. Sending them almost definitely will result in your regretting having done so.

 

You need to recognize that you are probably behaving less rationally than you normally do. So that requires that you think before acting. Contacting and not contacting any ex is an important decision in most circumstances. And you don't want to make important decisions when your are irrational.

 

I don't know if this helps. My honest answer is: I don't know. It's hard. Just weather the storm. You'll find your way.

 

All the best,

 

Universe

[Universe]

I haven't bought the Robert Green books, as I am a little curious on how you could possibly apply the stuff that is written in them to your situation. From what I hear they are perhaps a little manipulative. I am curious of your thoughts on them.

I didn't buy them either. I just read chapters from them as I relaxed at Border's. One of this things I would do a lot when I was in the thick of missing her was to go to the beach by myself and read some fiction (like Lady Chatterley's Lover by D.H. Lawrence) for a couple hours, then go over to Border's, buy a Chai Tea and read through different books in the psychology and relationship sections. The Robert Greene books stood out (and seem to be more popular) because they're very clear and straight forward. Power and seduction exist and are a part of everyone's everyday life. Any step teken to understand power and seduction further is a progress. If we do not understand power, then we will never conquer it.

I was most intrigued be the Art of Seduction book. My sex like with my ex got sort of dysfunctional towards the end. There was surely fault on both sides. But I'm only responsible for one of those sides, so that's the side I focussed on fixing. You sexual identity is merely and extensional of the rest of your identity. If the rest of your identity is insecure and weak, then your sexual identity is doomed. So I sought out ways to be more secure and strong in the whole of my identity. But more importantly I was trying to understand human interaction. These books look at interaction in a very blunt direct way. Ultimately, there's very little hard information in these books. That's why I don't recommend buying them. What I like about them is the approach of trying to understand the other person how they are stimulated. A good lover is one who knows what his lover wants. I don't think that is manipulative. I think it is challenging. If you were to read those books as a tutorial for manipulating someone, I don't think you'd be succesful.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by Universe

Well, I still catch myself sliding back at times. But when it starts to happen, I feel this immense weight come down on my shoulders. I soon recognize this weight as the way I used to feel all the time. So it's at those times I know I really have to start thinking really hard about how my relationship with my ex is evolving. Like, we're still in "taking it slow" period which is really good for both of us I think. What's really good for me is that I get the space I need to think clearly and independently about what I perceive as regressions in my emotional and psychological health. But I can't say I've figured out how to make it stick. I think it would be much easier for me to make it stick if I were with somebody new. The fact that it's my ex who I was previously with for 5 years makes it extremely difficult not to slip into old dynamics. There've always been these little compulsive behaviors that come out of me when I'm around her. I think compulsive behavior is bad. I think instinctual behavior is good. And I think recognizing the difference between the two, impulse and instinct, is a necessary step in order for two people to cohabitate.

 

First of of all, save telling her off for your journal. I know this sounds weak at first. But it's not weak. It's smart. This is why: No one looks good telling someone off. It never gets received the way you intend it to. But if your so impassioned that you just cannot resist, then so be it. The explosion of passion can be such a beautiful thing that I hate to subdue it. But that's because I'm a sucker for that type of thing. Ex-girlfriends are rarely impressed with these explosions. They often see it for what it really is. A man crying like a baby because he is no longer having his needs met while somehow remaining ignorant of the fact that her needs haven't been met in years. The best telling her off will do is add drama to the story of the two of you. But it will most likely make a reconciliation all the more out of the question.

 

Tell her I have changed? Who are you trying to convince? You or her? Why not show her you have changed? Bringing your change to life is not only the best way to convince her of it, but it's the only way to make that change true. You haven't really changed unless your actions have changed. And if your actions have changed, she will notice.

Now, when I say actions, I'm talking about things as subtle as body language. One of the best indicators I have that something is wrong with the way I'm approaching something is my body language. Obviously it can be useful to study other people's body language. But it's good to be as natural as possible and objectively observe your own body language. If your natural body language seems insecure, then there is probably something your thinking or doing that is making you feel that way.

 

Tell her she screwed up? Did you not screw up too? Regardless, it's your decision if you want her back. But you should not try to get her back if you cannot forgive her for the ways that which she screwed up. If you can't forgive her, then maybe what she did was just too awful and that's a good indication that you should forget her and move on. I've been at this for about 9 months now. I still have moments where retrace my steps and double check my decision to forgive her. What she did hurt me really badly. So I can completely understand people who cannot forgive their ex. All situations are different. Some people are more evenly matched than others, some throw bigger punches. But if you can't forgive, you can't reconcile.

 

She's not being receptive right now? Then you have no choice but to wait until she calls or until you have an appropriate excuse to contact her. At this point, all contact with her has to be pleasant, fun, and enjoyable for her. The best way to ruin it is to mention the relationship or getting back together. You need to build rapport before you can be friends with her again and eventually date again. Give it some time. And take that time for yourself. Go out and make new friends. Be completely alone. Read a book or three. Take up a new hobby. Do volunteer work. Put your body in action and your mind will follow. But do what YOU want to do, NOT what you think she'd like you to do (unless, of course, you happen to have a genuine desire to do it).

 

Spilling your guts in a letter or email will only temporarily fulfill your need to do so, and will not be received the way you intend them to. It is good to write those letters, but it's best to save them as artifacts to look back on as you grow because you will. Sending them almost definitely will result in your regretting having done so.

 

You need to recognize that you are probably behaving less rationally than you normally do. So that requires that you think before acting. Contacting and not contacting any ex is an important decision in most circumstances. And you don't want to make important decisions when your are irrational.

 

I don't know if this helps. My honest answer is: I don't know. It's hard. Just weather the storm. You'll find your way.

 

All the best,

 

Universe

 

Thanks man. I know you're right and my actions will prove I have truly changed 100 fold over just telling her. I am not going to contact her in any way, shape or form. I will wait until she comes to me (IF she ever does). By then I may not even want her back again. But I will keep it light, friendly, I will not offer advice or judge her, I will simply listen and be a friend.

 

You rock.

[tricky]

I gotta say that this is the hardest thing I ever had to do. It is a real challenge, to be able to keep yourself together and keep on taking steps to get her back. It feels like I take a couple of steps and then take three back. I am sometimes behaving irrationaly, I feel like a disease has taken over me and will not let go. I move with it and ride the storm as you say, but I have some serious doubts. I have taken a step back for the past couple of weeks since I've pressured her and haven't called. She keeps on emailing me every day about trivial stuff that happen in her life and I try not to write too much. But I do answer. I feel like I have to keep the communication channel going. I have been feeling a bit better, but some days it is more steps back and I am depressed. Days like this I feel like giving up and throwing it in.

 

But now that I think about it I've done more challenging things in my life. In any case if I fail I will only be in the same still be in the same situation I am in now. I have nothing to lose..

[Universe]

I gotta say that this is the hardest thing I ever had to do. It is a real challenge, to be able to keep yourself together and keep on taking steps to get her back. It feels like I take a couple of steps and then take three back. I am sometimes behaving irrationaly, I feel like a disease has taken over me and will not let go.

This is exactly how I felt before I started "dating" my ex again. Every day feels like a battle. And you keep hearing voices in your head asking why your putting yourself through so much for this girl. I think some guys, rightly, close the door on their exes. If you are convinced that she's not worth it, then it's probably for the best that you get over it. But if you decide not to, I can say that the journey you will go through in your mind is a necessary one. It was definitely the hardest thing I ever had to do. Maybe that's evidence of how priveleged my life has been. But it made me learn so much more about myself and who I really am; more importantly, who I want to be. Even if it fails, I know for a fact by now that it has all been worth it.

And I don't think the battle will ever be over. But the more successful you are, the easier it is to fight it. It takes practice. Having a relationship takes a lot of effort. But saving one takes more. You're not just repairing the damage, but you're making up lost ground. You working with her not against her.

 

My advice to you is to not place so much emphasis on her approval of you. Try to understand her needs and how you, personally, can satisfy them. Some things won't work. So things will set you back. But it's not the end of the world. Time heals many wounds. And she may subconsciously be impressed with the fact that you aren't concerned with the fact that you've failed to win her approval. The knowledge that she doesn't have to give you approval for you to survive is a very relieving and refreshing thing...not to mention attractive. Further, it will allow you to fully realize your personality. And it's your personality that is attractive; not your personality thorugh her eyes, but your independent personality.

 

And this advice is much easier to give than to live.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by Universe

Having a relationship takes a lot of effort. But saving one takes more.

 

So many people don't understand this. It's so easy to throw your hands up in disgust and say "forget it!" But if you really think someone is worth it, then the pain and agony you must go through is worth it.

 

Great point, Universe.

 

My advice to you is to not place so much emphasis on her approval of you.

 

I'd even go a little further to say don't place any emphasis on her approval of you. Seek approval within.

 

Try to understand her needs and how you, personally, can satisfy them. Some things won't work. So things will set you back. But it's not the end of the world.

 

Definitely.

 

Time heals many wounds. And she may subconsciously be impressed with the fact that you aren't concerned with the fact that you've failed to win her approval. The knowledge that she doesn't have to give you approval for you to survive is a very relieving and refreshing thing...not to mention attractive. Further, it will allow you to fully realize your personality. And it's your personality that is attractive; not your personality thorugh her eyes, but your independent personality.

 

Confidence and self-assuredness is sexy. Seeking approval from within starts with accepting reality for what it is (not what you want it to be), accept yourself completely (warts and all) and then asking yourself often "Is this what I want? Does this make me happy?" Again, the Calm, Confident, Self-Assured and Masculine men is what women seek. Learn to be one.

 

And this advice is much easier to give than to live.

 

To quote Our Gang: "Aaaaand how!"

[Treasa]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

So my next question to you is: Is it possible to show them you have changed? If so, how do you go about doing it? I know I sound like I am going back to my old self, but if she actually saw the change she would be instantly attracted to me. And I HAVE changed a lot for the better (she even admitted it a few weeks ago that she saw a change). I know I have to wait for her rebound relationship to fail but heck, by that time I could have moved on.

 

Argh. How do I say this without sounding mean, which is definitely not my intention?

 

....

 

The fact that you want to show her this SO BADLY just shows that you're still clingy and needy. You're still dependent on her approval. If you were truly confident, you would say, "Screw this girl. I'm doing this for myself, and I don't care if she ever sees it. She lost her chance with me, at least for now."

 

And you don't know her relationship will fail. My current relationship could currently be considered a rebound, but as we've been together for over a year now, and things are getting better, I don't think it is.

 

Eventually you'll stop trying so hard to prove this great change in you, and THEN you will come across as really attractive and confident.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by Treasa

Argh. How do I say this without sounding mean, which is definitely not my intention?

 

....

 

The fact that you want to show her this SO BADLY just shows that you're still clingy and needy. You're still dependent on her approval. If you were truly confident, you would say, "Screw this girl. I'm doing this for myself, and I don't care if she ever sees it. She lost her chance with me, at least for now."

 

And you don't know her relationship will fail. My current relationship could currently be considered a rebound, but as we've been together for over a year now, and things are getting better, I don't think it is.

 

Eventually you'll stop trying so hard to prove this great change in you, and THEN you will come across as really attractive and confident.

 

Hmm, I don't feel that way anymore. When did I write that?!

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

Hmm, I don't feel that way anymore. When did I write that?!

 

Going senile already, CIOC? Or just the curse of the frequent poster?

[tricky]

i've been reading a lot of the break up stuff on LS and what really amazes me is the parrarels i see. it's almost like mental illness that takes over in the time that you'd require the most rational mind. it really seems that most people react to being dumped in the same way. the whole clingines, the loss of self esteem, self-denial, neediness, sleepless nights.. etc.

 

i went out with a girl for just over 6 years. it was all lovely until it all got really ugly and eventualy i was ready to leave her.. the truth is i wanted to leave.. it got so hard to give and even to receive that I felt it was taking all my energy and all the life that was left in me. i felt emotionally dead.. and she felt the same..

 

I always thought that if she decides to dump me one day, i will be ok. i will be able to walk away gracefuly.. if she decides to do that, then i'll respect her wishes and be cool.. no bother, i'll be right..

 

and to be honest i am sitting here and having a good laugh at myself tonight, because what happened was actualy quite different: she dumped me and next was the classic story that could have been written in a millon books... you know the score... you've all heard the story numerous times, it's been documented, shown on film and surely you've all seen yourself being absorbed into the madness yourself.. it amazes me how a rational, reasonably intelligent person suddenly turns into a 5 year old.. i suppose, i could glorify the whole business and start throwing words like passion, love, heartbreak blah, blah, blah.. but at the end of the day I was no more but a child, stomping my foot on the ground, crying because I weren't getting what i wanted.. yup, ladies and gentlemen, couple more months of the same behaviour and i realsed that i am carrying baggage that i never realised i had.. i was absolutely amazed..

 

so here I am workin on it.. i love this chick no doubt in my mind and it's certainly very hard to be losing her, but i lost myself in that relationship, and so did she.. there really would be no benefit for us to be getting back together at the moment and I believe she's more aware of it than I have been..

 

at least not for now..

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by ReluctantRomeo

Going senile already, CIOC? Or just the curse of the frequent poster?

 

A little from column A, a little from column B

 

Funny thing is, I don't. The last couple of weeks has been a growth spurt of sorts for me. My confidence grows every day in proportion to the loss of urge to call her.

 

I guess as the shackles are coming off, so grows my confidence.

[tricky]

another thought that occured to me today was that my idea of love has been fundamentally flawed. when she left, she made the decision to leave and ultimately it was the best decision for her. for me to be angry, bitter and spiteful at her leaving is wrong. it is nothing else but looking out for my own self-interest, and that is certainly not love. being sad about it is reasonable, but trying to prevent her from leaving certainly is not.

 

i always hear people repeating the mantra of 'if you love someone, set them free', but most would never give much though to what it really means. i don't think many people can really grasp the idea. i certainly didn't..