Nothing new

[NewLeaf512]

Thank you for pointing this out. My vitrol and jaded point of view (when it comes out ) is exactly because of what you have described jbrent. I just cannot understand the unremorseful WS. It hurts to try and understand them.

 

The suffering that I have endured by my WS is astounding. I never wanted to believe my WH could actually be like some of the WS's that you read about, but he proved me wrong, he ended up being exactly what I feared, an unremorseful non empathetic WS. I have known this man for 20 years and it hasn't been until these last couple of years that I am seeing this side of him. It is scary, bewildering, confusing, upsetting... I could go on and on.

 

Lady Designer I am always interested in your POV . I know you are suffering and I am very sorry, and it seems like it's been going on for some time. May I ask if you have a time or date that you can point to where you call time on this? You've been through so much and life is short.

 

Hug

[NewLeaf512]

I love when topics collide. There is actually a thread on another website where the WW came to her BH with a list of demands (password protection on phone, email, and social media; be able to do GNO again; separate vacations) that the BH needed to abide by or she would leave the marriage. Her mindset was that after 2 years, she did her time. This has erupted in multiple threads where betrayed and former waywards alike stated that isn't true remorse. I may be wrong, but the consensus here on this thread for some posters is that affairs not only have to be forgiven, but also forgotten. I can't speak for everyone else, but me and my wife have been to 2 marriage counselors. The first one was crap, so we went to the one we are at now. However, both stated to us the first day that the marriage will never be the same. I love my wife. I have accepted what she did and am getting close to forgiving. However, I will never forget what she did. I don't think I will be able to trust her and put her on the pedestal the same way I did before D Day.

 

Now, do I continuously put her down, bring up what she did, and use what she did as an excuse to act selfishly myself? Heck no. Neither she or I would want to live that way. My wife knows my feelings on these matters. I'm not forcing her to stay. If she feels that I should blindly trust her the way that I did before D Day, then she can leave anytime she wants. One of the things that I noticed that most people feel that the continuation or ending of the marriage should rest solely on the BS.

 

In terms of transparency, my wife is very similar to Mrs. Adams. I never once asked her to give me passwords or check in with me. She did all those things on her own accord. Why? Because she knows that it makes me feel safe and knowing that makes her feel happy. And when she is happy, I am happy. But I do understand why some people would not want to live that way. In that regard, I do agree with Rainbow. I think it just depends on the marriage.

 

This post is especially interesting to me.

 

"I love my wife." "I don't think I will be able to trust her"

 

Those statements are incongruous. It seems like you and your wife seem to love each other. Please get a new therapist so you can work on this . I think you can go the distance with the right support.

[NewLeaf512]

I do not have a life time to prove anything to anyone, not even my spouse.

 

I believe what the poster is saying is that no one should stay in a marriage where they feel like they have to continually prove over and over again they are trust worthy and spend the rest of their lives trying to make everything okay for their spouse.

 

And I agree with that and who would want a marriage or relationship like that?

 

When TWO people decided to stay in a marriage after infidelity, then TWO people, NOT ONE, must then make it work TOGETHER.

 

Or as you say, they must BOTH decide it's not gonna work.

 

It's not the WS job to keep proving for the remainder of their lives. At some point, trust has to be rebuilt or what's the point of reconciliation?

 

I disagree with you completely.

 

Thank you for understanding my post. Likewise I won't be here in 30 years a few times a week to explain how I became an exOW. I choose to take resposibility for every thing I've done, to learn why I did it, to fix whatever was broken in me heal and move on. I'm not wearing a Scarlet A on my chest for the rest of my life and rehashing something and keeping it alive seems countrintuitive to me.

[NewLeaf512]

I can't subscribe to this chain of thought.

 

I respect you and what has worked and your H through your reconciliation process, but I absolutely cannot carry a burden like this around forever - it's too heavy and it's detrimental to my mental health and happiness and the overall health of our marriage.

 

My wife has been the biggest advocate for me to "let go" of my affair. She has begged and pleaded with me to move on from it, to stop beating myself up, to stop feeling sick over it, to stop crying, to truly forgive myself, because she already has and she knew we would NEVER move forward if I was STUCK in the pain of it.

 

I do not intend to carry any burden for the rest of my life. I simply cannot.

 

I do intend to make my spouse feel safe and loved and respected for the rest of my life. That, I can do.

 

There is a difference.

 

This so much

[ladydesigner]

And this would all be a whole lot of self justification for treating someone unkindly or even cruelly if you ever have (and I don't know if you have). Not seeing that the person behind the posts is also a human being who bleeds when cut. Being so focused on yourself that you make it all about yourself even when it isn't. Nobody ever strives to be a better person when they are put down, insulted and attacked. And everyone knows when someone genuinly cares about their well being or nor. And I can guarantee you that someone who genuinly cares will have far more of a positive impact than someone who is merely venting their own personal pain on someone else's thread.

 

It is going to happen. And sometines kind posters have unkind moments. But taking responsibility for hurtful words can often be a big step in the right direction.

 

I know I have said things that upon rereading have sounded unkind and uncompassionate. Sometimes my pain clouds my own judgement. But it is no excuse for me to continue being unkind and lashing out at others in proxy for the person I am really angry at, which is myself. And for others it may be their own WS.

 

Oh yes I totally agree. I may have triggered a few times, but I have never outright attacked anyone. Heck I was attacked here at LS when I began as a MOW now xMOW, but yes I got a lot of flack for that and at the time not wanting to disclose my A to my H. I have since disclosed my own A to my WH. I try to come here to try to offer different perspectives since I have been on both sides.

[ladydesigner]

Sometimes they are incapable of remorse due to mental health issues. Sometimes opinions and perspectives differ on what a remorseful wayward is and you can't always lable it. Sometimes they are stuck and no matter how they try they cannot shake their demons. And sometimes they just cannot bare to face the reflection in the mirror. I have seen people who have been broken by their actions told they aren't "remorseful" because they haven't confessed. That is other people making a personal truth a universal one. (Not wanting to discuss this just using it as an example of how it can look). I read a story on the crazy site where a woman was told she wasn't remorseful because she had boundaries in what she was willing to do for her BH. It was other people's opinions.

 

I absolutely believe this. My WH had an extremely abusive upbringing and has learned to cover his emotions and possess little to no empathy.

[nightmare01]

As you say, everyone is different and we all come onto LS from different environments and in different roles. So I think that it's best to take what is valuable - but also weigh different opinions.

 

My POV is that of a BH 14 years after Dday. My wife had childhood issues that made any exhibition of empathy near impossible for her. It was a struggle, but we are still together and happy together.

 

For me a very touchy subject is when a WS wants to not tell their BS. I really try to refrain myself from going ballistic when I hear things like excusing continued lying by saying it's done to protect the BS. Admittedly I have stated strongly my opinion on this, and that may have been harsh.

 

As I said, it's been 14 years, and I still hurt daily. Would I have rather my WW not tell me of her LTA? NO. Absolutely NOT. Yes I feel pain, but I would rather have the pain of knowing what my life actually is, than live a pretty lie with my head buried in the sand.

 

Some of the pain I feel is due to my WW not disclosing everything as I asked.. I got the old "I forget" excuse. And those holes in the story bother me still.

 

In my view continued lying by either not telling at all, or withholding some important information, is only about protecting the WS and the AP. The protecting the AP thing bothers me because it feels like she is preferring him over me through her protection. I think that most anyone here would rather not see themselves as number 2 in their spouses heart, and that's what lying does - again, that's just my view.

 

So that's my big issue. Believe it or not I do try to hold my tongue, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

[Mrs. John Adams]

nightmare...john and i were talking about this today...there is an article in the wall street journal today about affairs. It was quite interesting.

 

i told John everything...in retrospect...I wish i had not... but then i think even though it hurt...maybe it is good that he knows everything and that he knows i withheld nothing.

 

Trickle truth must be very difficult to overcome....and i sympathize more than words can say for the BS....I am a fixer...and it makes me feel so bad when i cannot fix it for others.

 

It took me such a long time to understand what it was that john needed....and i so want other Ws to do better than i did

 

i hope your wife is giving you all you need...and i understand if you lash out...just remember ...the WS here are not YOUR ws

 

i understand and try not to take it personally....but sometimes it does hurt....and i realize how very lucky i am

Edited September 12, 2015 by Mrs. John Adams

[merrmeade]

Dear Noirek,

 

I also wrote you a PM but decided most of it ought to be in your thread.

 

I'll read the rest later and apologize for only having read the first page so far, but having just written all this, I'll go on and post. I think it will be relevant wherever it falls.

 

I remember the last thread we were in together and thinking that you were working through some things in a way I hadn't seen or understood. I'm learning myself to be more compassionate to the WS experience. I think the shame-filled WS and the traumatized BS are deaf and blind to each other because of the effect they have on each other's pain.

 

My problem is that the OW in my case was my sister-in-law, whom I'd loved and trusted. She was the victim from beginning to end as far as I could tell. She apologized in a note that said, "I'm sorry. We were needy. It was mutual." I said on the phone I forgave her and meant it but realized her lack of acknowledgement for my pain would forever prevent our reconciliation. That feeling of dismissal and abuse (blaming the victim) that I experienced in dealing with her has never gone away. She forgave herself too easily and quickly. She called an old boyfriend that same month (I learned later) and married him within 3 months of my brother's death. She expected I would forgive her for the sake of normal family relations. I could tell at my brother's deathbed and funeral that she had been waiting for that event to purge all the other feelings and fix everything.

 

For a long time, I could not put myself in any the shoes of any OW on LS because of that experience, but I"m getting better. I wonder if the WSs on LS can help me get over being the traumatized BS where my sister-in-law is concerned, but probably not. It can help me, however, learn to see that not every WS is my SIL.

 

You were the beginning not because you explained or clarified, but because you were so utterly transparent. It just blew my mind. I felt so much compassion for you.

 

Later you started on some other lines that I just couldn't understand ….

 

merrmeade

[JohnAdams]

We are probably a fairly rare couple in that we are both on here.

 

 

We have been married 43 years, a milestone that not many make.

 

 

I am not a quitter.

 

 

We made many mistakes on our road to recovery, but, we made it!

 

 

To imply that Mrs. JA is less than me or subservient to me is almost laughable. If you told our children, Mrs. JA's parents or any of our friends this they would laugh knowing how dominant Mrs. JA is in person.

 

 

We are equal partners with different strengths and weaknesses.

 

 

You never forget the sting of adultery but you do not let it rule your life.

[road]

 

i told John everything...in retrospect...I wish i had not... but then i think even though it hurt...maybe it is good that he knows everything and that he knows i withheld nothing.

 

Trickle truth must be very difficult to overcome....

 

 

Did you volunteer every detail or did your BH ask for every detail?

[Mrs. John Adams]

merrmeade...you infidelity is so hard for me to relate to....the closest i can come is...my sisters husband...my brother in law

 

his wife had an affair with his brother

 

he divorced her and many years later married my sister

 

 

yet...he remained friends..with both his brother and his x wife...I was in awe

 

i cannot imagine how you deal with this kind of betrayal...and i think you have done a remarkable job

[merrmeade]

I may just live in dreamland.

 

I could never be married to someone who I knew viewed me as less. Ever. I could not fully give myself to or receive from someone who I KNEW would always view me through one lens spanning one period of my life. Ever.

 

I'll be even more blunt. I do not think an unequal marriage where the A IS the center (because it is the measuring stick of each one's present value) is recovery.

#1 - The BS is HURTing. One might ask how you get to 'view[ing the WS] as less'? Allow me to fill in the blank: I think this misperception happens (from experience) because the WS's shame translates suffering into blame — regardless of how it's expressed.

#2 - The A is not the center by choice. But if the BS's recovery has not been helped, validated and allowed its own timetable, then someone looking in from the outside, conjecturing about how s/he would react, might see it as the A, not the damaged BS, and as choice rather than untreated trauma or grief or whatever. #3 - Value? I don't think the BS is measuring when s/he is simply suffering. But I have witnessed the WS shame cycle first-hand. It is crippling and, yes, mired in issues of value and self-worth when all the BS wants is selfless understanding.

 

You may say that the BS needs to reassure the WS of his/her value if this is understood and that is true. But that is still begging the question of who hurt whom and asking the victim to heal the perpetrator. At some point, perhaps the BS asks herself is it worth it? And, as you suggest, vice versa.

 

Of course, the understanding and support must go hand in hand. It takes both, acknowledging the effort and empathy shown by the other. It takes patience and tolerance, which may look like settling to some.

[66Charger]

One of the hardest thing for me to understand is why a WW, WS or BS goes thru years and sometimes decades of pain. I personaly believe in tomorrows. If I am to control my destiny, it would not be filled with mind movies and mistrust. Instead, I would just say the past is yesterday and perhaps, God willing, I will find a beautiful flower and say Hello. Or maybe she finds me and tries to slap me down but is surprised that I have been looking at her for months. Dwelling in the dirt, could cloud your vision. Cause you to miss your maybe forever. There is so much battling on LS and particulary the infidelity thread that sometimes you can lose sight of the real world. You can become defensive, expect dirt where none exist. Fail to believe that you what you deeply want is so possible, even if it is difficult. Perhaps some of you would be wise to sit on the sidelines and just read for a bit. Heal yourselves and see what comes your way. We all have traveled difficult paths, but soon you may come to a fork in the road. Which way will you go? Will you be affected by words on a forum? Will you be affected by your yesterdays?

 

Or will you sit in the rain on a cool late summer night and have someone sing you a song.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Did you volunteer every detail or did your BH ask for every detail?

 

I volunteered

[Mrs. John Adams]

66charger...the pain is still there regardless of your choice to stay or divorce. It doesn't just suddenly go away because you rid yourself of the person who caused it.

 

The majority of folks here did this exact thing...they divorced their cheating spouse...but they are still hurt.

 

So the real question becomes...how long do you suffer....and my short answer is...the rest of your life. It gets better.....you move forward.....and you are happy.....but there is still a reminder and it still can bring tears to your eyes.....maybe more than anything it is the reminder of innocence lost....the trust, the comfort

 

We have regained the trust and the comfort....but we are still reminded on occasion of the hurt....and those triggers....are certainly less...but still there.

the innocence lost can never be regained.

[Mr. Lucky]

While some are obviously brutal in their posting style, "loving the sinner but hating the sin" can be a difficult concept for some WS to grasp. We're all fallible and human, but a forum labeled "Infidelity" is by its nature a discussion of the actions, conduct, reasons and consequences of cheating. This isn't a quilting bee.

 

There are as many thin-skinned recipients here as there are attack style posters...

 

Mr. Lucky

[66Charger]

Mrs. Adams

 

I am not sure if you intended to say "the innocence lost can never be regained" applies to those who leave a bad situation. If that is the case, I respectfully disagree.

 

As a matter of fact, it must be the opposite. Carrying a loss of innocence forward can kill a new love. No one wants to pay for the sins of another man. I truly feel sorry for those who say, they will never trust again. It may be difficult to put on the rose colored glasses, but it must be done. I know someone and she definately has battle scars. The time to convince her what my name is and what it is not, is longer than normal because of this thought pattern. Had she not completely twisted me as only a woman can, I would have said no thank you Maam. It appears we have weathered that storm, for now.

 

I do understand that if you live with infidelity as your history, the pain may never completely disappear. But if you choose not to, the innocence of love should return. You will have no choice. If time becomes a freind of the relationship, the heart will open. The need to believe in the forever resurfaces and the desire for everything that is possible becomes your reality.

 

Even a long time poster filled with anger, and mistrust can backburner the negative and embrace and enjoy the dream. At least I hope so.

Edited September 12, 2015 by 66Charger

[Mrs. John Adams]

the innocence i am referring to is the innocence that my husband of 43 years was my one and only sexual partner....we married at 17 and 19....

I can never get that innocence back.

 

Our love was always there.....and it grows stronger every day. But the pain of what i did will forever be there. It is not consuming....but it remains.

 

I don't want it to sound like we are just grief stricken and cant move past it...it isn't anything like that. But as long as we live...it will be there. Even if you "put it on the back burner" it is still on the stove.

[66Charger]

Putting it on the back burner is something you may do at the beginning. However after 43 years....There comes a time when remorse and regret should turn into redemption. Based on everything that I have read of your words, and his, you have reached that point long ago. So now I will address your husband.

 

There comes a time when you must put your wifes pain where it belongs. Over. At this point you need to look her in the eye. And tell her to stop. Stop feeling pain when she has redeemed herself to you many times over. You need to get this off the back burner and bury it. This is YOUR responsibility not hers. Does she not deserve it?

 

May I suggest you plant a tree. Put something that reminds you of the affair in the dirt. Then plant the tree on top of it. Cover it with dirt, sprinkle it with water and walk away.

 

Its time for you to do this for your wife. You may say you feel you have done all you can, but clearly she still feels the pain if only for a brief moment.

 

IMHO

[66Charger]

66charger...the pain is still there regardless of your choice to stay or divorce. It doesn't just suddenly go away because you rid yourself of the person who caused it.

 

The majority of folks here did this exact thing...they divorced their cheating spouse...but they are still hurt.

 

So the real question becomes...how long do you suffer....and my short answer is...the rest of your life. It gets better.....you move forward.....and you are happy.....but there is still a reminder and it still can bring tears to your eyes.....maybe more than anything it is the reminder of innocence lost....the trust, the comfort

 

We have regained the trust and the comfort....but we are still reminded on occasion of the hurt....and those triggers....are certainly less...but still there.

the innocence lost can never be regained.

 

Are you reading this John? She feels she should suffer the rest of her life.

 

Do you agree with that?

[Mrs. John Adams]

It isn't my pain i am referring to...and neither of us is suffering....there is a huge difference in pain and suffering.

 

We are doing just fine.....I don't grovel at his feet writhing in pain and agony. We have a wonderful full life. We carry a scar....

 

We are on an infidelity board...we talk about infidelity. It is probably the only time we talk about infidelity.

 

when we go to a travel board...we talk about travel. However....travel is a much more important part of our lives. It is a big part of who we are. You might even say it defines us.

 

Infidelity doesn't.

[66Charger]

I would prefer for your husband to answer the question. He doesnt owe me or any one anything, but I am curious if he feels you should suffer forever, if only rarely.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I am not suffering so it is a moot point.

[JohnAdams]

I would prefer for your husband to answer the question. He doesnt owe me or any one anything, but I am curious if he feels you should suffer forever, if only rarely.

 

I agree 100%