Nothing new

[autumnnight]

I agree about LS. Yes, people can be pointed....but if LS is the only place someone has ever been....they have no idea just how far into your life the other kinds of ugliness other places can go.

[ShatteredLady]

I'm a BS & I stick with this forum over the other popular marriage/relationship ones because I couldn't stomach how cruel they were particularly to women who had relationships with MM. I know, understandably, members have some very strong views but as a new member I think L'S at least sees people as human beings deserving of compassion (mostly).

[turnera]

Have you tried Marriage Advocates? They're the most compassionate and kindest to everyone, IMO. They don't tolerate meanspiritedness.

[ladydesigner]

For me having to be subserviently being remorseful and reassuring about something that happened 5 years ago wouldn't seem to be a good place for either H or W.

 

I agree, although in my case my WH being a serial cheater, he is going to have to be subservient for a very long time. He can leave at anytime as can I. I have no qualms about ending the M instantly if WH has an issue.

[road]

I thought I'd update when something big and new happened but nothing has. MM and I are no longer in contact. Saw him this last weekend and didn't even make eye contact or want too. Husband and I are doing well enough. As well as you can when one of us still feels like she is treading water to barely keep her head above water.

 

People go on and on here all the time about how easy it is for a WS to forgive themselves and "get over it" and there words always imply how worthless they feel they are. I realized being here was not helping my morale. I felt brutalized for expressing my own opinion. And I wa blindsided by one of the people doing it because I had felt there support before and they had helped me feel I could be better. It really just caused me to shrink inside and the voice of self loathing to get loud again. So I took a break. I wanted to get away from the toxicity of affairs and you really can't here.

 

But i came back because my counsellor thing was a flop. I wasn't interested in hearing how I cheated because of my husband's actions. Living in small town nowhere has its drawbacks.

 

I don't know where this post is going. Or why my rambling. I don't even know why I bothered coming back. Very few people are interested in a cheater's opinion. The top of this forum says for both ws and bs but it really doesn't feel like that.

 

You and your BH should move far away to prevent breaking NC and reduce triggers.

[jbrent890]

I love when topics collide. There is actually a thread on another website where the WW came to her BH with a list of demands (password protection on phone, email, and social media; be able to do GNO again; separate vacations) that the BH needed to abide by or she would leave the marriage. Her mindset was that after 2 years, she did her time. This has erupted in multiple threads where betrayed and former waywards alike stated that isn't true remorse. I may be wrong, but the consensus here on this thread for some posters is that affairs not only have to be forgiven, but also forgotten. I can't speak for everyone else, but me and my wife have been to 2 marriage counselors. The first one was crap, so we went to the one we are at now. However, both stated to us the first day that the marriage will never be the same. I love my wife. I have accepted what she did and am getting close to forgiving. However, I will never forget what she did. I don't think I will be able to trust her and put her on the pedestal the same way I did before D Day.

 

Now, do I continuously put her down, bring up what she did, and use what she did as an excuse to act selfishly myself? Heck no. Neither she or I would want to live that way. My wife knows my feelings on these matters. I'm not forcing her to stay. If she feels that I should blindly trust her the way that I did before D Day, then she can leave anytime she wants. One of the things that I noticed that most people feel that the continuation or ending of the marriage should rest solely on the BS.

 

In terms of transparency, my wife is very similar to Mrs. Adams. I never once asked her to give me passwords or check in with me. She did all those things on her own accord. Why? Because she knows that it makes me feel safe and knowing that makes her feel happy. And when she is happy, I am happy. But I do understand why some people would not want to live that way. In that regard, I do agree with Rainbow. I think it just depends on the marriage.

Edited September 11, 2015 by jbrent890

[Mrs. John Adams]

I believe...especially shortly after reconciliation is chosen....that transparency is absolutely required...and I don't know about anyone else...but I want my husband to trust me again....and i also want to hold myself accountable.

 

It is no big deal to me to tell him my schedule or to call him or to give him access to my accounts and passwords. Perhaps if i had done that in the first place...I would not have cheated. Instead...I lied and went behind his back. He gave me the gift i reconciliation....I give him Transparency....we are happy.

[autumnnight]

I love when topics collide. There is actually a thread on another website where the WW came to her BH with a list of demands (password protection on phone, email, and social media; be able to do GNO again; separate vacations) that the BH needed to abide by or she would leave the marriage. Her mindset was that after 2 years, she did her time. This has erupted in multiple threads where betrayed and former waywards alike stated that isn't true remorse. I may be wrong, but the consensus here on this thread for some posters is that affairs not only have to be forgiven, but also forgotten. I can't speak for everyone else, but me and my wife have been to 2 marriage counselors. The first one was crap, so we went to the one we are at now. However, both stated to us the first day that the marriage will never be the same. I love my wife. I have accepted what she did and am getting close to forgiving. However, I will never forget what she did. I don't think I will be able to trust her and put her on the pedestal the same way I did before D Day.

 

Now, do I continuously put her down, bring up what she did, and use what she did as an excuse to act selfishly myself? Heck no. Neither she or I would want to live that way. My wife knows my feelings on these matters. I'm not forcing her to stay. If she feels that I should blindly trust her the way that I did before D Day, then she can leave anytime she wants. One of the things that I noticed that most people feel that the continuation or ending of the marriage should rest solely on the BS.

 

In terms of transparency, my wife is very similar to Mrs. Adams. I never once asked her to give me passwords or check in with me. She did all those things on her own accord. Why? Because she knows that it makes me feel safe and knowing that makes her feel happy. And when she is happy, I am happy. But I do understand why some people would not want to live that way. In that regard, I do agree with Rainbow. I think it just depends on the marriage.

 

As if often the case, people tend to see statements where there are none.

 

An affair, like any other trauma, cannot be forgotten. And I have yet to see a single post that suggests it can. And I have not seen specific time limits either. This is what people who have an emotional investment in a very particular view do - they see things that are not there. I do it too.

 

What I am saying, and will continue to say, is that while the past can never be changed or forgotten, when it becomes THE theme around which the present and future centers....there's a problem. I'm not talking the initial crisis and the rebuilding. I'm talking years and years out. Dealing with triggers compassionately? Must be done. Carrying a permanent weight around one's neck, using the A as an argument trump card, making snide remarks to the FWS every time a car the same color of the AP's passes, being upset that the grocery trip took 15 extra minutes 8 years later? No. Not healthy.

 

No one has suggested an affair be forgotten. No one has suggested that after X time the BS never gets to hurt again, and no one here has suggested that ridiculous list thing that some other WS somewhere else was dumb enough to suggest.

 

Life isn't one extreme or the other. Just because I do not believe in permanent punishment and inferiority doesn't mean I believe in rugsweeping or forgetting. To suggest that is not even rational.

 

It does make me sad, however, that some people move through and on from an A, while others seem to make it the theme around which their lives revolve.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Autumn...we all handle crisis in our own way I guess. John and i are in a very different place 32 years out then we were at 25 years out...or 15 years out...etc.

Circumstances in life change us and change our perspective. John struggled for 30 years with a horrible trigger around the anniversary of my affair...he tried so hard to move on from it...but it consumed him. I knew it was coming...and i always tried so hard to reassure him...but he still had this nagging fear that i did not understand just how badly i had hurt him. I thought i did understand...and i did say over and over i was sorry....but he needed to KNOW in his gut that i truly understood his pain. I was able to give him what he needed....and we are once again coming upon the dreaded time of year....and the other day i heard john say...I am looking forward to Fall....I almost fainted.

 

He never meant to make me feel bad in the fall....he tried to suffer in silence....but i knew.

 

Infidelity is so destroying....to rise from the ashes is so difficult....but it can be done. Some folks can heal much faster than others....some people do everything right....

 

We struggled for far too long...we had a good marriage a good relationship....but there was this hurt and fear he still carried.

 

Infidelity can be forgiven....but it wont be forgotten. We concentrate on living life to its fullest...and once it awhile...the affair raises its ugly head just to remind us it is still there. EVentually....if reconciliation is chosen....and healing happens....it lays dormant most of the time....and life goes on. For us....we have much more time behind us than we have ahead of us....I don't want to waste one single minute....I dont want my affair to steal one moment away from me.

 

Happily ever after? I believe it can happen....and i will do my best to make it happen.

[Noirek]

Well, i was surprised to see so many new posts since I last came here on what I thought was a mild post.

 

I don't think, mrs adams, you mean it but your posts definetly show you believe yourself less than your husband because of your cheating. And I get it. I feel less than my husband too, because I am less than him as far as value as a spouse goes. But I don't know if I believe like you that I will always carry this. I have scars. They are reminders of pain that no longer hurt. They may remind me of pain but most of the time I forget I even have them. A bag of rocks though is a physical weight that drags you down everyday. My husband doesn't have one. He doesn't have ptsd symptoms or trigger. And he wants me to be the same as him. Just like rainbow said. So I hope in time I will be more like him and leave the past in the past.

 

I read a lot pn here about how the WS wants the BS to just "get over it" and "move on". I think I need to head my fellow WSs' advice.

 

I agree that there are forums that are far worse than this one. Places where trash talking is not only allowed it is encouraged. But, many (not all, there are some who truly are not blinded by their own prejudice) BS really can't see how hurtful their posts can come across. From the fresh WS side it is easy to see the people who genuinly care and those that care not at all for the WS or even see them as a human being who is worth something. And while I don't really mind being personally attacked for the most part... Unless it is by someone who I actually care about, i do hate to see others kicked.

[autumnnight]

I read a lot pn here about how the WS wants the BS to just "get over it" and "move on".

 

Yeah, and based on my experience, the above attitude is the exception, not the rule.

 

However, I think I give up on posting in a manner that is understandable. Because apparently I am communicating badly, if people are getting the idea that I feel that way or think others should forget, etc.

 

I don't REALLY think it's that easy to misunderstand me, but yeah, it's frustrating, so I probably just need to give up.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Lol autumn...obviously we all are misunderstood! Don't take it personally!

 

I certainly don't think of myself as less than John.....and I can't imagine that I have given that impression...but since several of you think so..I must be conveying that message....he will find that humorous...lol since he often tells me he is afraid of me! Lol

 

I believe that infidelity is a burden that forever exists....if you have a different experience than I do....then you are very fortunate. It doesn't rule our lives....but it will always be there.

 

Like I said before.....the bs and the WS really want the same thing. They want it to never have happened. Unfortunately...it did and all the wishing in the world will not change that.

[jbrent890]

Well, i was surprised to see so many new posts since I last came here on what I thought was a mild post.

 

I don't think, mrs adams, you mean it but your posts definetly show you believe yourself less than your husband because of your cheating. And I get it. I feel less than my husband too, because I am less than him as far as value as a spouse goes. But I don't know if I believe like you that I will always carry this. I have scars. They are reminders of pain that no longer hurt. They may remind me of pain but most of the time I forget I even have them. A bag of rocks though is a physical weight that drags you down everyday. My husband doesn't have one. He doesn't have ptsd symptoms or trigger. And he wants me to be the same as him. Just like rainbow said. So I hope in time I will be more like him and leave the past in the past.

 

I read a lot pn here about how the WS wants the BS to just "get over it" and "move on". I think I need to head my fellow WSs' advice.

 

I agree that there are forums that are far worse than this one. Places where trash talking is not only allowed it is encouraged. But, many (not all, there are some who truly are not blinded by their own prejudice) BS really can't see how hurtful their posts can come across. From the fresh WS side it is easy to see the people who genuinly care and those that care not at all for the WS or even see them as a human being who is worth something. And while I don't really mind being personally attacked for the most part... Unless it is by someone who I actually care about, i do hate to see others kicked.

 

I look at this way. I don't think that a lot of the BS that come off as overly vitriolic started off that way. From the many stories I have read, a lot of BSs had to suffer through months (sometimes years) of lies, TT, omissions, blame shifting, justifications, affairs being taken underground, affairs starting back up again, etc. This is just my own personal observation, but many Waywards aren't initially that remorseful, in fact most are pretty horrible after D Day. It takes them a long time to get to a point of being remorseful, so I can understand why a lot of betrayed out there have jaded views on waywards. Like you, they hate seeing other people get hurt. Look at it this way, these people did not ask to be put in the positions they were put in.

 

In terms of you, I hope you don't mind me asking, why does it matter how other waywards are treated? In my opinion, only two opinions should matter to you. You and your husbands. Your husband seems to be moving on quite well, so I think you should focus on that. I would hate for you to lose sight of that because you are concerned with how other waywards are treated (hope that doesn't sound harsh). Just keep focusing on building a stronger marriage for your husband. It seems like you are doing a great job of that, so just keep it going.

[Noirek]

In terms of you, I hope you don't mind me asking, why does it matter how other waywards are treated? In my opinion, only two opinions should matter to you. You and your husbands. Your husband seems to be moving on quite well, so I think you should focus on that. I would hate for you to lose sight of that because you are concerned with how other waywards are treated (hope that doesn't sound harsh). Just keep focusing on building a stronger marriage for your husband. It seems like you are doing a great job of that, so just keep it going.

 

Because I care about people and their stories. Because I am not better than them and want to see them dealt with in kindness. I don't think caring about how others are treated takes away from my husband.

 

However, seeing the negativity and mud slung at other waywards does have a way of dragging me down too. Because I am them. SO when I go into a waywards thread thinking maybe I can offer them something, the roasting gets to me. And so I think I probably should not even come here.

[autumnnight]

Because I care about people and their stories. Because I am not better than them and want to see them dealt with in kindness. I don't think caring about how others are treated takes away from my husband.

 

However, seeing the negativity and mud slung at other waywards does have a way of dragging me down too. Because I am them. SO when I go into a waywards thread thinking maybe I can offer them something, the roasting gets to me. And so I think I probably should not even come here.

 

I think that it is similar to how a...person who is dyslexic hears stupid dyslexic jokes or a person with Bipolar hears people make snide remarks about bipolar. I mean, the person who made the remark can say "Oh! I didn't mean YOU!" But we all know they did...because that is what they said.

 

When something has affected you, it stings when people treat other people in your situation like crap. It makes perfect sense. Not to mention that bashing faceless WS is NOT a healthy path to healing, no matter how good it might feel.

[Mrs. John Adams]

If someone is being attacked..you can always report it and let the moderators deal with it.

 

Sometimes things come out more harsh than they were meant to be and we as readers perceive it differently than it was meant.

 

I have had my share of cruelty...but at the end of the day...it really only matters what I think and what John thinks. Our healing has come from forums like this one...and while some of it hurt...in the long run..it helped.

 

Respect should be given regardless and if I see someone mistreating someone else...I will report.

[jbrent890]

If someone is being attacked..you can always report it and let the moderators deal with it.

 

Sometimes things come out more harsh than they were meant to be and we as readers perceive it differently than it was meant.

 

I have had my share of cruelty...but at the end of the day...it really only matters what I think and what John thinks. Our healing has come from forums like this one...and while some of it hurt...in the long run..it helped.

 

Respect should be given regardless and if I see someone mistreating someone else...I will report.

 

Definitely agree with this. I would say that a vast majority of my posts here are perceived more harshly than I intended them to be. I may be firm, but I never try to be harsh.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Your posts have a tone.....just like mine do....

But I have never taken yours as offensive...quite the contrary.

You seem to be very matter of fact...and I like a straight shooter.

 

Just because we don't agree with every post doesn't mean we should take it personally.

 

Now..if it is an outright attack....that's different.

 

I have been on the receiving end of attacks....and I have a tendency to flee.I will try to be patient and explain...but then I get frustrated and usually run back to my corner.

John will only take so much ...and then he will fight back...with posters. But it takes a lot to push his buttons. One time he defended me to a fella..and I thought he was going to go through the computer and strangle the guy.lol

 

It was on a different forum...ironically the guy's name was"healer"....and he was quite the opposite....

Edited September 11, 2015 by Mrs. John Adams

[ladydesigner]

I look at this way. I don't think that a lot of the BS that come off as overly vitriolic started off that way. From the many stories I have read, a lot of BSs had to suffer through months (sometimes years) of lies, TT, omissions, blame shifting, justifications, affairs being taken underground, affairs starting back up again, etc. This is just my own personal observation, but many Waywards aren't initially that remorseful, in fact most are pretty horrible after D Day. It takes them a long time to get to a point of being remorseful, so I can understand why a lot of betrayed out there have jaded views on waywards. Like you, they hate seeing other people get hurt. Look at it this way, these people did not ask to be put in the positions they were put in.

 

Thank you for pointing this out. My vitrol and jaded point of view (when it comes out ) is exactly because of what you have described jbrent. I just cannot understand the unremorseful WS. It hurts to try and understand them.

 

The suffering that I have endured by my WS is astounding. I never wanted to believe my WH could actually be like some of the WS's that you read about, but he proved me wrong, he ended up being exactly what I feared, an unremorseful non empathetic WS. I have known this man for 20 years and it hasn't been until these last couple of years that I am seeing this side of him. It is scary, bewildering, confusing, upsetting... I could go on and on.

[autumnnight]

I just cannot understand the unremorseful WS.

 

I can't imagine anyone understanding an unremorseful WS (except maybe another unremorseful WS).

 

The problem is that many people assume EVERY WS is unremorseful....or they just stick THEIR WS' face on the poster's body, so to speak.

[Noirek]

Thank you for pointing this out. My vitrol and jaded point of view (when it comes out ) is exactly because of what you have described jbrent. I just cannot understand the unremorseful WS. It hurts to try and understand them.

 

The suffering that I have endured by my WS is astounding. I never wanted to believe my WH could actually be like some of the WS's that you read about, but he proved me wrong, he ended up being exactly what I feared, an unremorseful non empathetic WS. I have known this man for 20 years and it hasn't been until these last couple of years that I am seeing this side of him. It is scary, bewildering, confusing, upsetting... I could go on and on.

 

And this would all be a whole lot of self justification for treating someone unkindly or even cruelly if you ever have (and I don't know if you have). Not seeing that the person behind the posts is also a human being who bleeds when cut. Being so focused on yourself that you make it all about yourself even when it isn't. Nobody ever strives to be a better person when they are put down, insulted and attacked. And everyone knows when someone genuinly cares about their well being or nor. And I can guarantee you that someone who genuinly cares will have far more of a positive impact than someone who is merely venting their own personal pain on someone else's thread.

 

It is going to happen. And sometines kind posters have unkind moments. But taking responsibility for hurtful words can often be a big step in the right direction.

 

I know I have said things that upon rereading have sounded unkind and uncompassionate. Sometimes my pain clouds my own judgement. But it is no excuse for me to continue being unkind and lashing out at others in proxy for the person I am really angry at, which is myself. And for others it may be their own WS.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Autumn..you bring up a very good point....on another forum...i had a fella that kept harping on a particular aspect of my story...over and over and over....and it was a point that seemed to be very important to him...but not to john or i.....he was convinced that because of this particular point...we could not reconcile.....we reminded him that ...first...what he thought really did not matter...and second....we had been reconciling 30 years. He eventually got banned.

 

I have always wondered if this particular part of my story pushed a button in his real story.

[Noirek]

I can't imagine anyone understanding an unremorseful WS (except maybe another unremorseful WS).

 

The problem is that many people assume EVERY WS is unremorseful....or they just stick THEIR WS' face on the poster's body, so to speak.

 

Sometimes they are incapable of remorse due to mental health issues. Sometimes opinions and perspectives differ on what a remorseful wayward is and you can't always lable it. Sometimes they are stuck and no matter how they try they cannot shake their demons. And sometimes they just cannot bare to face the reflection in the mirror. I have seen people who have been broken by their actions told they aren't "remorseful" because they haven't confessed. That is other people making a personal truth a universal one. (Not wanting to discuss this just using it as an example of how it can look). I read a story on the crazy site where a woman was told she wasn't remorseful because she had boundaries in what she was willing to do for her BH. It was other people's opinions.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Noirek...the bottom line is always...the only thing that truly matters is the husband and wife....period. Each infidelity is different...each person is different...and there is no one size fits all reconciliation.

 

We all do the best we can do... My goal is to do everything i can to heal my husband. If he tells me i am doing everything he needs...that's all i care about.

 

You and your husband are still together...you are still working on it...that's all that matters.And the fact that we are all still here...looking for more answers, more ideas, more support means that we are trying to do our best.

[NewLeaf512]

Let me ask you this....does the affair ever go away for him?

Is there a betrayed spouse here that can honestly say ...the infidelity is gone from their mind?

 

No

 

There isn't.

 

As long as he remembers what I did...I will reassure him that I won't do it again.

 

That's the bag of rocks I gave us.

 

Again I respectfully disagree. I have read many BS who stay with WS, deal with the incident and move on to enjoy loving happy marriages as individuals secure within the marriage.

 

It seems to be smashing an anthill over and over.

 

There is no point staying married to someone if the A wound keeps getting revisited, replayed and reopened years and even decades later. What a sad way to live.

And if one really wants to get pedantic, let's see how many M people have ever fantasised about a celebrity or any one else during sex or better yet solo sex. Is that cheating? And if you knew would you beat someone with it for the duration of the marriage?